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Picard Season 3 (SPOILERS)

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    Most of Starfleet is unaware of S31 - they're considered the black ops section of Starfleet Intelligence, according to Worf's statement. (He didn't expect Riker to know what they were, for instance.) And they're only "a few steps ahead of us" when they have relevant information; they didn't know about the Dominion War before the initial attacks, for instance. Since there was nothing to indicate the presence of some new Changeling mutation before, they probably had their suspicions, but couldn't openly act on them (especially if, as I suspect, one or more of the higher-ups in the organization has already been replaced. It's what I would have done, even before infiltrating Command).
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    edited March 2023
    Their cover's always been dubious at best across decently-sized swaths of the Federation's history - that special badge doesn't help either, as lampshaded by Boimler's duplicate when he was recruited into Section 31.​​
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  • angusmcfifexiii#8078 angusmcfifexiii Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    > @"thunderfoot#5163" said:
    > So the Daystrom Institute has Section 31 items stored. A few questions I have.
    >
    > - Since Section 31 isn't supposed to exist, isn't this a tacit admission by Starfleet that they knew about Section 31 all along?
    > - Since in canon Section 31 is portrayed as being a few moves ahead of the rest of us, shouldn't they have known about the Changeling threat to the Federation prior to it becoming a threat?
    > - Shouldn't Section 31 be helping Admiral Picard reduce or eliminate the Changeling threat somehow? Either covertly or out in the open? The second one makes sense to me now that Section 31's cover is apparently blown.

    I always assumed that the top brass always knew about Section 31 but decided to play ignorant to because it's just easier.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    I always assumed that the top brass always knew about Section 31 but decided to play ignorant to because it's just easier.
    It's called "plausible deniability". If they can plausibly act like they have no idea who these people are, they can't be held responsible for "rogue actors". A tale as old as time, or at least as old as black ops.
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  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,497 Arc User
    So the Daystrom Institute has Section 31 items stored. A few questions I have.

    - Since Section 31 isn't supposed to exist, isn't this a tacit admission by Starfleet that they knew about Section 31 all along?
    - Since in canon Section 31 is portrayed as being a few moves ahead of the rest of us, shouldn't they have known about the Changeling threat to the Federation prior to it becoming a threat?
    - Shouldn't Section 31 be helping Admiral Picard reduce or eliminate the Changeling threat somehow? Either covertly or out in the open? The second one makes sense to me now that Section 31's cover is apparently blown.

    Section 31 is part of the federation charter. Why does everyone think it is an illegal organization.
    The lack of oversight is worrisome and that was one of the issues which came to light in DS9.


    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    The S31 organization results from a rather... idiosyncratic reading of Article 14, Section 31 of the Articles of Federation. It authorizes extreme action during times of basically existential threat, and S31 is set up as if such threat exists all the time.

    My headcanon on this is that the group gets varying levels of support, depending on what's going on in the galaxy during any given administration - sometimes it's the near-godlike secret agency Sloan claimed, sometimes it's more like MI-6 or the modern CIA where they're primarily information-gathering services with limited ability to actually act. And sometimes, I think, it withers away to near nothing, maybe two or three admin personnel providing the only continuity of service.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    Most of this episode was good. Until the last few moments.

    Your captain just fell out of the turbolift. Maybe with all those people on the bridge, one of you could keep an eye out behind to see if he was pushed? I swear, it's like they all forgot their training just because they're on the run.

    Now if Geordi can just convince Lore that he's still alive inside that shared head, and his best chance of survival is to let Data run things at least until the current crisis is resolved...
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  • yistaanyistaan Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    So the Daystrom Institute has Section 31 items stored. A few questions I have.

    - Since Section 31 isn't supposed to exist, isn't this a tacit admission by Starfleet that they knew about Section 31 all along?
    - Since in canon Section 31 is portrayed as being a few moves ahead of the rest of us, shouldn't they have known about the Changeling threat to the Federation prior to it becoming a threat?
    - Shouldn't Section 31 be helping Admiral Picard reduce or eliminate the Changeling threat somehow? Either covertly or out in the open? The second one makes sense to me now that Section 31's cover is apparently blown.

    Section 31 is part of the federation charter. Why does everyone think it is an illegal organization.
    The lack of oversight is worrisome and that was one of the issues which came to light in DS9.

    S31 is part of Earth's Starfleet Charter in Enterprise, I don't believe it's ever been confirmed to be part of the Federation charter
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,880 Arc User
    yistaan wrote: »
    questerius wrote: »
    So the Daystrom Institute has Section 31 items stored. A few questions I have.

    - Since Section 31 isn't supposed to exist, isn't this a tacit admission by Starfleet that they knew about Section 31 all along?
    - Since in canon Section 31 is portrayed as being a few moves ahead of the rest of us, shouldn't they have known about the Changeling threat to the Federation prior to it becoming a threat?
    - Shouldn't Section 31 be helping Admiral Picard reduce or eliminate the Changeling threat somehow? Either covertly or out in the open? The second one makes sense to me now that Section 31's cover is apparently blown.

    Section 31 is part of the federation charter. Why does everyone think it is an illegal organization.
    The lack of oversight is worrisome and that was one of the issues which came to light in DS9.

    S31 is part of Earth's Starfleet Charter in Enterprise, I don't believe it's ever been confirmed to be part of the Federation charter

    They did confirm it actually, in DS9, though I forget which episode exactly it was the first mention of Article 14, Section 31. Apparently the Federation liked the UESPA Starfleet enough to copy much of (if not all) of the Starfleet charter over verbatim.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    I'm quite glad that Vadic missed a chance to really TRIBBLE with Riker's head, and kidnapped the real Deanna Troi instead of just doing another copy.

    And Lore was using strength, while Data was using jiujitsu. Oops. :smile:
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    So the Daystrom Institute has Section 31 items stored. A few questions I have.

    - Since Section 31 isn't supposed to exist, isn't this a tacit admission by Starfleet that they knew about Section 31 all along?
    - Since in canon Section 31 is portrayed as being a few moves ahead of the rest of us, shouldn't they have known about the Changeling threat to the Federation prior to it becoming a threat?
    - Shouldn't Section 31 be helping Admiral Picard reduce or eliminate the Changeling threat somehow? Either covertly or out in the open? The second one makes sense to me now that Section 31's cover is apparently blown.

    Section 31 is part of the federation charter. Why does everyone think it is an illegal organization.
    The lack of oversight is worrisome and that was one of the issues which came to light in DS9.


    It is part of the charter.

    Starfleet General Orders and Regulations; Article 14, Section 31.
    (The use of extraordinary measures in times of dire situations).

    However the existence of the organisation isn't specifically a cause for concern or illegal itself, what is a cause for concern is the complete autonomy away from Starfleet Intelligence and the complete lack of moral code it has that the majority of Starfleet and the Federation find particularly abhorrent.

    The acts they undertake are illegal when it involves some of the darkest things one life form can do to another. The morphogenic virus used on Changelings and Odo was unknowingly carrying around the weapon of genocide within him. Then he linked and it passed on from there. A act of desperation; a weapon to commit to the genocide of one species to save another, to section 31 it was seen as a correct means to an end because extraordinary measures are called for in dire situations.

    If it wasn't for Bashir and O'Brien interfering with Romulan mind probes on Sloane it would have been all out genocide.

    It would be interesting to find out if Section 31 had a hand in the evolution of these nine changelings. I'm beginning to think that Bashir's scans he did on Odo when he was judged by his people and turned into a solid, this data was used by the Daystrom team and Section 31 feeling aggrieved by Bashir getting in the way last time will see this as particularly poetic form of justice for them to undercover these scans and pass them along as a blueprint to this evolution.

    But why is the Daystrom institute involved in such shady activities for? They are risking everything they are -- and what's it all for? That doesn't make any sense right, even with Section 31 assistance.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    It would be interesting to find out if Section 31 had a hand in the evolution of these nine changelings.
    That's made pretty explicit in the flashbacks during Vadic's speech - she even took on the appearance of the researcher she killed. S31 started making them even before the virus, in an attempt to create shapeshifters they could control (they thought). As we can see, the plan didn't work out quite the way they'd hoped.
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  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,679 Community Manager
    Holy mother of God, this week's episode. Who else started crying when they saw the Enterprise D?
  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    Holy mother of God, this week's episode. Who else started crying when they saw the Enterprise D?

    Was crying at seeing the F. Happy tears, cos it represented a part of me as a member of this great STO family. Then when I saw the D I was balling my eyes out. When Jean-Luc said Number 1, then make it so, then engage I was totally gone. Mike I know others have said this, and I am 100000000% with them on this. No matter what ST series you love the best. Between the shows and STO they have defined us. the shows, this game has seen many of us through our baddest days as well as our good days. The ST fan base is the best in the world. We may not all agree, but we all support each other.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    edited April 2023
    Honestly, I was a little let down - first by the Big Bad being the Borg again (I'll be really disappointed if Queen Agnes doesn't show up sometime), then by falling back on the D (that's not what I meant and you know it - what are you, twelve?). Also, I didn't want Shaw to die, but at least he finally called Seven by her proper name, and gave her command of the Titan (for what it's worth at this point, but at least if they retake her Seven will have the command codes).

    The whole thing felt a little too... well... fanservicey, for lack of an existing word for what I mean. Given the rest of this season, I still have confidence that Matalas will pull it out, assuming he was given actual control. (And if he still wants to try to tie into STO at least somewhat, this may explain why by 2410 recovery of people from the Borg Collective is a routine procedure.)
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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2023
    jonsills wrote: »
    Honestly, I was a little let down - first by the Big Bad being the Borg again (I'll be really disappointed if Queen Agnes doesn't show up sometime), then by falling back on the D (that's not what I meant and you know it - what are you, twelve?). Also, I didn't want Shaw to die, but at least he finally called Seven by her proper name, and gave her command of the Titan (for what it's worth at this point, but at least if they retake her Seven will have the command codes).

    The whole thing felt a little too... well... fanservicey, for lack of an existing word for what I mean. Given the rest of this season, I still have confidence that Matalas will pull it out, assuming he was given actual control. (And if he still wants to try to tie into STO at least somewhat, this may explain why by 2410 recovery of people from the Borg Collective is a routine procedure.)

    That's a problem, especially if the Queen being vengeful or Jack in a moment of confusion or anger reaches out and has the controlled young crew activate the self-destructs on every starfleet ship but not intending it, especially after carving through Proberst station like a roast and bombarding major cities on the surface of Earth, especially with the torpedo yields turned right up. It would make the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima look insignificant next to torpedo strikes above 100+ isotonne charges each raining down from over 100 vessels in orbit.

    You know the Queen has always been looking to adapt to highly resistant species and the Federation while a long way from the Borg, her attempts at knocking down humanity have always failed. So this longer term plan using the Changelings (and this now invalidates the section 31 theory as the Borg clearly had a hand in their creation and what they planned to do with them) and the use of transporter technology to infect all young people under the age of 25 serving in Starfleet as one long term plan as much as it is with Jean-Luc and later Jack as a second plan.

    it turns out the Daystrom institute had no part in these events, they were just storing these things. The better question is why they were storing these things especially in light of the way the Borg queen got her plans lined up? Now that doesn't make sense. Was Altan a distant ally of the Borg Queen? did he set this up so the changelings would get what they wanted the most so it helped the queen? if that's the case, what about the android -- does it have a nasty hidden surprise within waiting to be activated?
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    No, S31 made these Changelings. That's why they were angry enough to be of use. And it's entirely possible that they were released by someone who decided that allying with the Borg was smart, for some reason. As for why S31 was storing these things at Daystrom Station - well, why do they have the things stored at that installation on Earth in STO? Answer: because they might prove useful one day. What holds S31 back is their insistence on retaining artifacts they don't actually need at the moment, in case they might later. Means that they get tied down to specific physical locations, and have to devote resources to containing things. (Really, it's the same as the great weakness of the SCP Foundation - most of what they have in containment should just be destroyed for everyone's safety, but since sometimes a Keter-class object can be used as Thaumiel-class, shutting down another Keter-class, they won't get rid of any of it. Except SCP-682, which they'd love to kill but it adapts to everything they try.)
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,393 Arc User
    Holy mother of God, this week's episode. Who else started crying when they saw the Enterprise D?

    TNG was pretty much my childhood, the first TV episode I can remember ever watching was "Best of Both Worlds part 2". It was nice to see the classic set and model and not in "take that" way either, but rather a nice callback to older fans.
  • timelords1701timelords1701 Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    Holy mother of God, this week's episode. Who else started crying when they saw the Enterprise D?

    Yes i had tears well up.
    She looked absolutely gorgeous, the detail inside and out was brilliant.
    Only 1 episode to go and i think i really will cry come the end knowing the voyage for them will truly be over..
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    No, S31 made these Changelings. That's why they were angry enough to be of use. And it's entirely possible that they were released by someone who decided that allying with the Borg was smart, for some reason. As for why S31 was storing these things at Daystrom Station - well, why do they have the things stored at that installation on Earth in STO? Answer: because they might prove useful one day. What holds S31 back is their insistence on retaining artifacts they don't actually need at the moment, in case they might later. Means that they get tied down to specific physical locations, and have to devote resources to containing things. (Really, it's the same as the great weakness of the SCP Foundation - most of what they have in containment should just be destroyed for everyone's safety, but since sometimes a Keter-class object can be used as Thaumiel-class, shutting down another Keter-class, they won't get rid of any of it. Except SCP-682, which they'd love to kill but it adapts to everything they try.)

    Now we are getting into an interesting point with Section 31.

    They aren't known to be careless or sloppy and they'd never leave evidence just laying around that could be used against them. if they had facilities to hold stuff like this, it would be held in a more secure and a lot more obscure blacksite well off the books that the upper brass of Starfleet wouldn't know of.

    Why would Section 31 go to the trouble of torturing nine changelings on an massive risk they'd be loyal to their new masters?

    Why would section 31 help these renegade changelings and the borg destroy the very organisation they are there to protect at all costs?

    Section 31 would have known about the Borg connection well before anyone else knew, even Altan himself. If Section 31 had those scans of Picard over the decades of his service, they'd have figured it out that the Borg were up to something and they would have known about the extra dna written into Picard. They wouldn't let themselves be blind sided to the literal destruction of the Federation if they knew Picard was a danger to the Federation.

    Then there are how the Federation ships are linked to each other. Why hasn't Section 31 intervened in unlinking the ship network especially with the risk it could be completely circumvented by an outside source? It's something they would have factored into their calculations and would have seen. It also would have been certain that if Section 31 had ships, Starfleet would have wanted those linked to the network as well, but section 31 would never go for it as it compromises their operation security.

    There are a few other questions but they all come back to the question: Why Section 31 do all these things and betray the very organisation they are sworn to protect at all costs? It just seems like if Section 31 was behind this and knew all this time they would have acted ahead of time to prevent it. It seems like they aren't involved based on the way things are going.
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  • wvuscottwvuscott Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    Holy mother of God, this week's episode. Who else started crying when they saw the Enterprise D?

    Me. I did and about 10 minutes after.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,472 Arc User
    I'm not saying S31 is behind this plot - quite the contrary, this is exactly the sort of thing they hoped to prevent. They just didn't think of their experimental subjects as sapient beings, deserving of any sort of rights or proper care - they just tweaked the DNA-equivalents any way they liked, without regard as to the feelings of the subjects. This has historically tended to bite said unethical experimenters in the tuchus, over the long term; in this case, it happened rather more rapidly than usual, but given the story spun by Vadic when she no longer had a reason to lie this would still seem to date back to shortly after the end of the Dominion War. The experimenters got sloppy. The experiments fought back.

    Then someone offered them help in getting their vengeance, in exchange for bringing them Jack. We don't know how long ago they stole Jean-Luc's body from Daystrom Station, but it was long enough ago that their Starfleet infiltrators were able to suborn the transporter subroutines of every ship in the fleet.
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  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    If you have yet to see this and are about to watch this have tissues at the ready.

  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    So, what I really want to know is...
    what the hell did Worf do to the Enterprise-E such that it couldn't be used?
    ​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    So, what I really want to know is...
    what the hell did Worf do to the Enterprise-E such that it couldn't be used?
    ​​

    Well whatever it was WASN'T his fault LOL
  • r24681012r24681012 Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    Man I am not embarrassed to admit I shed a tear seeing the Enterprise D Again they have finally got this series right shame it took 3 seasons and to see the Borg and the changlings working together what a interesting concept funny I was just starting to like captain shaw but now they have killed him off I can,t wait for the Final Episode I am sure it is going to be very emotional seeing this crew together one last time
  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    edited April 2023
    Jonathan Frakes has revealed the fate for the D crew. I won't post it here as not to release spoilers.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    So, what I really want to know is...
    what the hell did Worf do to the Enterprise-E such that it couldn't be used?
    ​​

    Nothing. It wasn't his fault, after all!
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    edited April 2023
    So, what I really want to know is...
    what the hell did Worf do to the Enterprise-E such that it couldn't be used?
    ​​
    Me too. Are they effectively canonizing some event from a Star Trek TNG comic, or Novel? If so, I don't know which one, but would love to know if that's the case, and from what.
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