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New Big Bad Original Big Bad or Enterprise Big Bad ? Discovery Season 4 theory

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Sometimes scientists can be so wrapped up in their research that they don't consider the fallout from its misuse. You know... the whole argument of "so wrapped up with if they could that they don't think of if they should" or something along those lines. Probably following McCoy's questioning line.
    “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.” - Dr. Ian Malcolm

    As for the chain of command - we already know there are those in Starfleet Command who wish for the old days of conflict, who look at Klingons and Romulans and are envious because they prepare for war. We saw that in Capt. Tracy's readiness to join with his captors in "Bread and Circuses", in the actions of Adm. Layton in the DS9 two-parter "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost", in the fact that the Constitution-class battleship was constructed in the first place. Sela isn't entirely wrong in taking us to task over Vulcan, when she comments on the hypocrisy of preaching peace while constructing ships capable of devastating a planet (and even a Connie could do that - General Order 24 calls for planetary sterilization if a world's culture threatens the Federation). I find it easy to believe that while use of the Genesis Device as a weapon seems like a fairly obvious extension of its potential, those with a vested interest in its use, whether for good or ill, would work to stop any such chain of reasoning before it reaches its final conclusion. ("Not to worry, Admiral - our scientists have considered every aspect, and there are safeguards in place." Or David Marcus worrying about that, only to be distracted by his mother with a casual comment about Jim Kirk.)
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,881 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    The overlooking of the issues surrounding the Genisis device is rather farfetched, but there have been realworld ideas that have been crazy dangerous, but the issues about them glossed over too. I just figure that as long as they don't make a habit of that kind of thing in stories a few can be put in the same category and handled with the usual suspension of disbelief.

    Take nuclear aircraft, which were seriously being developed back in the 1950s (and still some lower-priority research is being done even now), and even worse yet, nuclear automobiles. The aircraft one is bad enough, but just imagine the potential for disaster of roads filling up with fission powered cars with all the accidents that happen on the road.

    The Zantac lawsuits bring out another example. Apparently Glaxo (its developer) and some other drug companies knew at least as early as 2011 that the drug contained NDMA, a known cancer-causing substance and covered it up until an outside company, Valisure, noticed a statistical trend which led to them also discovering the flaw that produced the NDMA as a side effect, and unlike the others informed the FDA (who had failed to spot the problem during the approval process, nor did the catch on from statistical evidence like Valisure did later) of the fact. And even then, the FDA faffed around about it for a while before deciding it was a legitimate concern and ordered it withdrawn from the market.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    Thankfully, you can't actually get a nuclear explosion from the types of power sources posited for nuclear-powered vehicles...though that still doesn't stop the contamination of entire city blocks for the total remaining lifespan of the Earth if an accident occurs.

    If that's ever to become a viable thing, I think fusion needs to be licked, first of all...and whatever element is used for the reaction also needs to be one whose radioactive levels drop below lethal very fast - like, within the span of minutes - and I don't believe such an element exists.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    There actually was a fission reactor designed for use in an automobile - the Ford Futura, I think. Turned out the weight of the shielding got so high the vehicle could barely move. The aircraft, on the other hand, suffered from the issue of cost - it was considerably cheaper to build more B-52s and aerial-refueling tankers than to complete one X-6 nuclear bomber.

    There was also a proposal for a nuclear-powered cruise missile, but the design included a NERVA engine, meaning radioactive debris in its flight trail - hardly a desirable side-effect of test flights, not to mention how easily it could be detected in actual conflict.

    As for the likelihood of catastrophic effects of a misused Genesis Device being overlooked, several military forces around the world maintained research into biological warfare even after we came to understand the germ theory of disease, with its concomitant implication that any such agent wouldn't care what it was infecting.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Power will always exist. Money, beyond a certain point, is just a way of keeping score. (Do you really think it would make any material difference to, say, Musk or Gates if suddenly half of their money just poofed? But it would wreck their *score*.)
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,670 Community Moderator
    In general maybe, but individuals can buck the "norms". Look at the Pegasus Phase Cloak. Admiral Preston, who started his thing when he was a Captain, wanted it because he felt the Treaty of Algeron was a mistake that was gimping the Federation, who shares borders with two powers that use cloaking tech. Admiral Leyton wanted to turn Starfleet into a much more militaristic organization, and had positioned officers loyal to him into command positions, eventually ordering the destruction of USS Defiant by USS Lakota under the premise that the Defiant was compromised by Dominion agents without any actual proof. And then lets look at Admiral Marcus in the Kelvin Timeline. He spearheaded development of USS Vengeance and tried to start a war with the Klingon Empire to fulfill his vision of a fully militarized Starfleet.

    In the novel Dreadnought!, we DID have more of an attempted coup with Admiral Rittenhouse spearheading the development of the USS Star Empire, having ships loyal to him, and even a personal command insignia on full display aboard his own ship. I remember it was stated that a "personal command insignia" was highly unusual and NOT standard practice for Admirals.

    Yes humans in general may have moved beyond the pursuit of power and wealth in Star Trek, but as jonsils said, power will always be a factor in some form or another. And we have seen evidence of individuals in pursuit of power, be it for themselves, for a cause, or both.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,881 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Yes humans in general may have moved beyond the pursuit of power and wealth in Star Trek, but as jonsils said, power will always be a factor in some form or another. And we have seen evidence of individuals in pursuit of power, be it for themselves, for a cause, or both.

    Did Carol or David Marcus strike you as the evil power hungry type?

    Carol and David Marcus were more the naive scientific visionary type, especially David who felt scientists were above the military (who he considered undercivilized and unsophisticated) and that they would not have any problems keeping the technology out of military hands using "civilized" passive aggressive techniques. While that is not gone into in the movie itself very deeply (it is present though to some degree), the novelization does a better job of showing his (unfortunately too naive) viewpoint.

    Like dialog from the movie said, they were too focused on the benefits of the technology to really consider all the darker ramifications of it. And the bureaucrats who had to approve of the project were probably too glassy-eyed from not understanding the science behind the presentations to think much along those lines either.

    And of course, we are talking about the movies here, and Paramount Pictures were not as detail oriented as Paramount TV since they almost always delt with one-off movie stories, so plot holes were always glossed over more by them than the TV division.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    They're not "plot holes"; as Rattler points out, they're *in* the plots. There are plenty of naive scientists who aren't considering side-effects or misuse of technology (look at what the soliton wave projector almost did when it was used as the designer intended!), and there are people like Layton and Preston who want power - not as a goal in itself, of course not, we're not *villains* here, but in order to *protect* the people, they'll understand when we're done and forgive us for everything. Not to mention opportunists like Merik, who could have used his position as First Citizen to try to reform the situation on the Roman Empire planet, but who instead relaxed into the privileges he was given, or Tracey, who decided to ignore the Prime Directive on Omega IV and provided the Kohms with phasers so that they would take care of him (apparently at the expense of the surviving officers who remained planetside with him and thus were protected from the Omega Virus).

    I know, we all want to pretend that the Federation consists exclusively of moral paragons who would *never* do naughty things that might hurt others for their own power, but that would require that they no longer be human.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,670 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    If they were so passionate about keeping Genesis out of the hands of the evil military, why would they go to them to approve the project? Sure, they were idealists and visionaries, but they were not complete idiots.

    Because Starfleet had the personnel, ships, and capability of surveying planets as test sites as well as delivery systems. Carol Marcus didn't have a ship of her own, let alone one that could survey planets. It was a partnership. And clearly Starfleet also saw some promise in the technology. That's where the USS Reliant came in. She was assigned to do the survey work to find a suitable target for testing. We just run into the problem of the initial test planet didn't exist anymore and Starfleet didn't even KNOW it. Hell... apparently the Reliant didn't even notice that there was a planet missing at all! IMO if anything was a plot hole, it was that detail.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,881 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    jonsills wrote: »
    They're not "plot holes"; as Rattler points out, they're *in* the plots. There are plenty of naive scientists who aren't considering side-effects or misuse of technology (look at what the soliton wave projector almost did when it was used as the designer intended!), and there are people like Layton and Preston who want power - not as a goal in itself, of course not, we're not *villains* here, but in order to *protect* the people, they'll understand when we're done and forgive us for everything. Not to mention opportunists like Merik, who could have used his position as First Citizen to try to reform the situation on the Roman Empire planet, but who instead relaxed into the privileges he was given, or Tracey, who decided to ignore the Prime Directive on Omega IV and provided the Kohms with phasers so that they would take care of him (apparently at the expense of the surviving officers who remained planetside with him and thus were protected from the Omega Virus).

    I know, we all want to pretend that the Federation consists exclusively of moral paragons who would *never* do naughty things that might hurt others for their own power, but that would require that they no longer be human.

    True, I could have phrased that better, like adding "And of course, we are talking about the movies here, and Paramount Pictures were not as detail oriented as Paramount TV since they almost always delt with one-off movie stories, so plot holes and questionable shortcuts were always glossed over more by them than the TV division." or something similar.

    I was pointing out the difference between how Trek was treated by the movie division as opposed to the TV division, and meant it as more general than it came out as.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Hell... apparently the Reliant didn't even notice that there was a planet missing at all! IMO if anything was a plot hole, it was that detail.

    Yeah, that is actually the part I found most disturbing about that movie too, along with the whole idea that they never reported the Khan incident and the impromptu colony to headquarters at all, especially on top of the already rather over-the-top naivety of the scientists. It just made the Federation and Starfleet look like morons when they didn't have to.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,670 Community Moderator
    edited January 2022
    valoreah wrote: »
    Also, regurgitating examples like Admiral Leyton or Admiral Pressman do not work either. They were intended to be the bad guy. Carol and David Marcus are not the bad guys.

    No one ever said Carol and David were bad guys. If anything, they're more like John Hammond in Jurassic Park (movie), well meaning but not thinking of the repercussions of their actions.

    And YOU said that humans had moved beyond the persuit of power. You're handwaving examples of humans who were after power as "well they were bad guys so it doesn't count".
    valoreah wrote: »
    Well for starters, what you are saying here does not make much sense. Again, if they were so passionate about keeping Genesis out of the hands of the military, hopping in bed with the military certainly does not make sense.

    Again... Carol Marcus didn't have a ship AT ALL. She had a research lab. Starfleet had ships capable of doing the planetary surveys to the level she required for finding a suitable test sight, IE a DEAD planet with NO LIFE on it. Even if she could get a ship, it probably wouldn't have the sensor capability to perform that detailed a scan. Starfleet did because they do it all the time. Don't forget Starfleet ships are multi-roll, and perform all kinds of scientific studies. While Starfleet fills the role of military, they are also the science and exploratory arm of the Federation. While she and David didn't want "the military" to get their hands on the tech, she kinda had to go to Starfleet for help finding a test site, and odds are any test would have been under her supervision as project lead.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    The point you're persistently missing, Val, is that the Marcuses were project *leads*. Carol was starry-eyed over the possibility of creating life-bearing worlds from lifeless rocks; I'm not sure if she was even clear on what a "Goldilocks zone" is. David, on the other hand, was so eager to see his project work that he cut some pretty severe ethical corners which he plainly never shared with the rest of the team - nor, I'm willing to bet, with the Starfleet admiral Carol talked into helping with their little project. (If Starfleet had no clue of the Genesis Effect's potential use as a weapon, why was the presentation video not only classified, but locked to biometric data rather than the usual access codes?) Carol thought it would only be used on lifeless worlds; the Admiralty seemed to think the same thing, aside from whomever it was that encoded the classification level. David feared it might be unstable, but as long as "the military" didn't get hold of his device, he was sure he could keep things under control, because he was cocky and greatly overestimated his abilities. (He must get that from his father.)

    Had Khan and his people not seized the Reliant and stolen the device, it almost certainly would have been tested under the protocols Dr. Marcus had established. Only when the plant growth went nuts, assuming it did, would the instability and the use of protomatter have been uncovered. It wasn't designed as a weapon, it wasn't sold to the Federation as a weapon, it merely had the potential to be misused as a weapon. (Again, I refer you to the soliton-wave projector, which was designed as an FTL method and turned out to be a pretty good potential planet-killer.)

    *Society* might not be built around pursuit of power, but as long as *humans* exist, it's going to be part of the makeup. The only way to excise it would be to turn us into something that isn't human any more.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    So who raised questions about the dangers inherent in the soliton wave projector?
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,670 Community Moderator
    "What does that have to do with Genesis" basically is telling us you're not interested in anything beyond that SPECIFIC thing, which basically neuters any arguments and examples outside of Star Trek II, and thus turning this into a dead end discussion.
    Not only that, we don't know how long Project Genesis had been going before the events of Star Trek II, therefor we don't have the complete picture on the Project's history. Just the final chapter.

    It is entirely possible that the prospect of rapid Terraforming of inhospitable worlds was so intoxicating, that some didn't even consider the possiblity of bastardizing it into a weapon. Either that or the higher ups who approved it believed they could regulate it enough that it becomes a non issue.

    Genesis is, like a lot of other experimental technologies we've seen, a technological marvel that ended up going nowhere because of one reason or another. Starfleet and the Federation have a whole closet of such technologies.
    • Spore Drive - Worked as intended, but is legal gray area due to living pilot requirement. Classified and forgotten for centuries.
    • Genesis - Seemingly successful, but too easy to weaponize AND was stolen by Khan
    • Transwarp Drive- Failure, too easy to sabotage
    • Pegasus Phase Cloak - Initially a failure but proven successful, illegal by Treaty of Algeron
    • Warp 10 Engine - Results Mixed, deemed a failure due to mutagenic effects

    And that's just off the top of my head.
    As they say, the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions. That certainly fits at least two of those I listed, Spore Drive and Genesis. Neither of which were conceptualized as weapons or anything other than an attempt to make life better. The fact that if Spore Tech was misused could end all life in the multiverse, or Genesis could effectively be used to Exterminatus a planet, was not considered. McCoy may have thought about the Dark Side of Genesis, but we don't know if anyone else did before that because, again, we only see the final chapter of Project Genesis. We don't see its beginning or any step before the events of Star Trek II. If Starfleet and the Federation had such concerns that couldn't be placated in any way they wouldn't have allowed the research to progress as far as they did.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • edited January 2022
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,670 Community Moderator
    So... we're not allowed to back up our arguments with evidence unless it specifically came from the movie in question?
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,473 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    So... we're not allowed to back up our arguments with evidence unless it specifically came from the movie in question?
    Nor, apparently, evidence that *is* from the movie in question, unless we can find scenes filmed that cover each and every discussion in the entire approval process, from the day Carol Marcus first developed Marcus Effect theory, to the meeting at which the Federation approved funding (and all the backroom deals involved!), to her son David decided to cut some corners with protomatter (which also was never mentioned before the next movie, and not discussed in detail then - just the mention that it's "unethical"), right on up to when the decision was made to put the Reliant at Marcus' disposal for a survey mission. Inferences based on human nature and comparisons to other events in Trek history need not apply.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,670 Community Moderator
    You do know that ST2 was filmed the 80s... right? And that the story was about a confrontation with Khan again, with an old flame of Kirk's being caught in the middle? The story wasn't primarily about Genesis, it was about Kirk vs Khan.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • edited January 2022
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,881 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    The story IS weak in some parts, but it was done by a completely different division than series Star Trek (Paramount Pictures instead of Paramount TV (formerly Desilu)) and was meant to compete with a pure space opera (Star Wars) so Paramount was not particularly concerned about things like that, which it deemed were only of interest to nerds, not the bulk of their new target audience.

    After the TMP disappointment they had already pushed Roddenberry out of any active role in the production of the movies, along with most of the original Star Trek writers and only kept Roddenberry in the loop enough to keep him from agitating the fans into boycotting the movies. So it was basically Star Wars wearing a fake nose and glasses and a Star Trek suit.

    Holding the movies to the same standards as the various series before DSC is rather iffy since they were not made by the same people, are not the same subgenre, and not meant for the same audience as the various series.
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