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SPOILERS, Season 04; Ep. 01 "Kobayashi Maru''; ETC.

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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,409 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    Lower Decks is completely episodic...
    Tell that to the Pakled. :smile:
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    No, she shouldn't be - Saru should be...it's about damn time we get a PERMANENT alien captain of a hero ship - too damn many humans have held that role. Azetbur was right about the Federation being a glorified 'Homo Sapiens only' club.​​

    Totally agree!

    Trek in general seems oddly adverse to having an Alien in permanent command of the hero ship. Heck, not even the new animated series seem to want to go there.

    Well, in Prodigy, none of them are human. I'm not entirely sure between Dal and Gwynala who the captain is, or what Chakotay will be when he's introduced, but that's the closest we've got.

    Worf COMMANDED the Defiant, but he was never the Captain. Spock was half-Human and apart from in the JJ-Verse for five-minutes, was never properly the Captain. In the comics, Data was reborn through B4 and Captained the Enterprise-F...but that never happened, unfortunately.

    It always got to be in Voyager when Tuvok was made Captain after the beestings...but he didn't change his uniform to red, didn't elect a first officer and you knew they were going to find a cure.

    A full-on, alien-looking alien, not half-human, but a purebred alien Captain of a Hero ship...that would be more inclusive than any gender or orientation of the characters.

    I've seriously got all of my eggs in the Protostar basket...for look, plot, characters and especially the ship.
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    saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,402 Arc User
    edited November 2021
    Isn't it SUPPOSED to suck everything violently into space?

    From what I've heard movies and TV shows greatly exaggerate just how violent it is.
    Not exactly, but pretty close.
    Basically, to simplify, a big hole being blown up would suck everything violently into space, indeed. BUT, assuming the room/hallway it happens in has its doors closed (so the hole isn't blowing away the atmosphere of the entire ship at once), the air would being blown out and some characters may be pulled towards the hole... for like a second at best before the "wind" stops because all the air would be replaced by vacuum in a near-instant.
    Ironically, IRL, unless they had oxygen masks or the ability to quickly refill atmosphere on the bridge, the whole crew would be more in danger, and probably light-headed after a breach that would throw a crewmember out in media.

    On the opposite side if a tiny hole is pierced, the main danger is people not noticing (because it wouldn't do anything else except sneakily venting air), not sealing it on time and passing out and even away from lack of oxygen.

    In space, decompression happens in two ways: "violent but quick" or "slow but gentle", because the different of pressure between vacuum and normal atmosphere is actually not impressive.

    That is however definitely not true when dealing with high pressure environment like deep sea and dedicated decompression chambers, like what happened with the "Byford Dolphin" incident (do NOT google that after a meal) which was much MUCH worse and horrifying than what happens in soft sci-fi media.
    #TASforSTO
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    So...sickly sentimentality in the latest episode? "We did this", arms around each other, everyone makes nice, OBVIOUSLY the "unbonding" worked...and here I was hoping and praying that the sleeping race was something like Species 8472 who would immediately attack. We didn't get a cliff-hanger ending this week, but again...more sentimentality with those two in bed together. My final summing up...disingenuous love, uninteresting "romance", unconvincing happiness and the worst episode of the three so far.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    Becoming an expert in the use of a blade shouldn't take that long - maybe around as long as it takes to become a black belt in Karate - especially when that's the primary weapon type the group you're part of and have been part of for years uses.

    As for transporters...yes, you would think by this time, they'd have figured out SOME way to get around needing to lower them, especially since we've ALREADY seen instances in the past where some species can beam straight through shields, like the Borg or the Dominion.

    Oh, speaking of the Dominion, the Founders are apparently up to their fourth homeworld by the 32nd century.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    An intruder beaming aboard...zapped in a containment field? Automatically have their transporter beam rerouted to the bridge, or held in suspension? Some sort of transport inhibitor?

    A counter-insurgency programme, holographic security personal or synths immediately transporting in, etc.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,409 Arc User
    Starfleet never has gotten their waste matter together on a lot of things. Seat belts, circuit breakers or simple fuses, counterintrusion methodologies... it's a series of blind spots dating back to TOS.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    Lack of orbital defenses around important planets/installations, lack of boarding defenses, lack of encryption on important computer systems, lack of BASIC safety measures on starships...it's a wonder the Federation is still intact, given the sheer idiocy of everyone running it.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Starfleet never has gotten their waste matter together on a lot of things. Seat belts, circuit breakers or simple fuses, counterintrusion methodologies... it's a series of blind spots dating back to TOS.

    Oh, in the 60's you needed the cast to be thrown around the bridge and the wobbly cameras. It was upgraded in Voyager with the sparks...but Disco takes it too far with the flame throwers and automatic release of polystyrene rubble.
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    Lack of orbital defenses around important planets/installations, lack of boarding defenses, lack of encryption on important computer systems, lack of BASIC safety measures on starships...it's a wonder the Federation is still intact, given the sheer idiocy of everyone running it.​​

    And yet...I can overlook all of those things on an episode that's well-written and well-acted.
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    saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,402 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    The first officer of the Credence really asked to get himself killed. He keeps getting countered effortlessly and yet he still tries. I would find it admirable if it wasn't stupid.
    Especially since we then learn it's not the first time this happened, so Starfleet must have told their dilithium-supply ships officers to be careful because there was a rogue member of a group of warrior nuns stealing their dilithium that has been around for more than a millenium and who made the Tal Shiar soil themselves, so do not engage, you have zero chance to beat them.

    On the other hand, J'Vini killing him was also stupid because it feels forced just to bring the unnecessary conflict of "she killed someone, she must face justice": it's clear the guy had zero chance to beat her and the rest of her squad managed to nerve-pinched the rest without trouble and yet she doesn't hesitate to fatally stab him.
    I think it'd have been better if she accidentally killed him, like kicking or punching him after parrying his telegraphed attack and he broke his neck on the dilithium stand and she left without apparently having too much thought about it or something like that.

    Also, the mind meld between T'Rina and Book was nice, but there is one part I found utterly ridiculous: after Book relives the destruction of the Kwejian moon and the debris come right at him, the transition is... just bad (at about 2:16):
    https://youtu.be/3ToDOO0gG7k
    -the music fading is pretty much a variation of the Record Needle Scratch, giving it a near-comical tone
    -the action is frozen in the weakest way possible, complete with the blur of the upcoming debris. Literally, someone pressed the pause button during the previous episode. I think it'd have been a better effect if the debris stopped and stayed frozen without the blur but some effects of the mind meld
    -then, there is this awkward silence before T'Rina talks again
    -then, Book says "no wait! There is something else I need to see" in quite the most basic tone possible. That's less the tone of someone who wants to find closure to his young relative's death based on painful hallucinations he was having and more of someone trying to see if he can find where he put his last missing LEGO piece.

    The follow-up is much better, but this specific part just feels wrong to me.
    Post edited by saurializard on
    #TASforSTO
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    I know it's all about tradition with the swords...but you're right. It could have been neck pinches galore, or a Psionic Resonator on stun...or just a phaser on stun! The cheap Kill Bill bit was unnecessary and ill-prepared officers and transport procedures too.

    I remember in "The High Ground" with the dimensional shifting inverter transporter...that was fantastic, because it didn't matter if you had your shields up! I don't understand why if they could transport in though, that they couldn't just transport the dilithium out...or intercept the matter stream. Surely that's got to be possible at that time, because we've seen transporter beams deflected in the 24th century. Harry shot through a vacuole and a reality anomaly. Two Rikers were created. Bev and Picard were rerouted after breakfast, etc.

    There's also the reasoning...why not take it down in a shuttle? Book's ship is being used like it's the only shuttle in existence, but surely Starfleet still has its own?
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    naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    kayajay wrote: »
    There's also the reasoning...why not take it down in a shuttle? Book's ship is being used like it's the only shuttle in existence, but surely Starfleet still has its own?
    Book's ship isn't a shuttle, it's used because its a full fledged cargo transport ship giving it much better.... well everything compared to a shuttle. Why use a worse ship when you have a better one right there?
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    kayajay wrote: »
    There's also the reasoning...why not take it down in a shuttle? Book's ship is being used like it's the only shuttle in existence, but surely Starfleet still has its own?
    Book's ship isn't a shuttle, it's used because its a full fledged cargo transport ship giving it much better.... well everything compared to a shuttle. Why use a worse ship when you have a better one right there?

    And yet...why use something that's not Starfleet issue? Surely Starfleet has a 32nd Century Runabout or Delta Flyer, so why would they be using something like that? I could understand if they were in Voyager's situation and say using Neelix's shuttle (if it had been a piece of Tribble), but it just seems like an excuse to have Book and his "super ship" save the day. Starfleet should have given Discovery a full compliment of secondary vessels that should be able to run rings around a Sirenna-esque Transformers knock-off.
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    naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    kayajay wrote: »
    And yet...why use something that's not Starfleet issue? Surely Starfleet has a 32nd Century Runabout or Delta Flyer, so why would they be using something like that? I could understand if they were in Voyager's situation and say using Neelix's shuttle (if it had been a piece of Tribble), but it just seems like an excuse to have Book and his "super ship" save the day. Starfleet should have given Discovery a full compliment of secondary vessels that should be able to run rings around a Sirenna-esque Transformers knock-off.
    Because they aren't mindless drones, who aren't going to not use a superior option that is right there available to them just because it isn't standard issue.

    You're entire argument boils down to "why aren't they being stupid", because they aren't stupid? A standard issue Starfleet shuttle isn't going to be able to outdo a fully functional ship, just like they never really have throughout the franchise. Even if Book's ship didn't exist, and they were using a Starfleet shuttle, would you not be complaining that the Starfleet shuttle is being used the save the day all the time instead of Book's ship?
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    kayajay wrote: »
    And yet...why use something that's not Starfleet issue? Surely Starfleet has a 32nd Century Runabout or Delta Flyer, so why would they be using something like that? I could understand if they were in Voyager's situation and say using Neelix's shuttle (if it had been a piece of Tribble), but it just seems like an excuse to have Book and his "super ship" save the day. Starfleet should have given Discovery a full compliment of secondary vessels that should be able to run rings around a Sirenna-esque Transformers knock-off.
    Because they aren't mindless drones, who aren't going to not use a superior option that is right there available to them just because it isn't standard issue.

    You're entire argument boils down to "why aren't they being stupid", because they aren't stupid? A standard issue Starfleet shuttle isn't going to be able to outdo a fully functional ship, just like they never really have throughout the franchise. Even if Book's ship didn't exist, and they were using a Starfleet shuttle, would you not be complaining that the Starfleet shuttle is being used the save the day all the time instead of Book's ship?

    My argument is...why is Book's ship superior to anything Starfleet has to offer! 32nd Century Starfleet haven't got anything that's designed to do what Book's ship does...seriously? No Runabouts, so Delta Flyers, no Class 2 Shuttles, with detached nacelles, organic hulls, crappy matter, that can change shape themselves, etc. Book's ship, unless I'm massively mistaken, isn't Starfleet. I don't even know if he built it himself, which would at least be something, but it's being used lackadaisical, because the Producers think it's "cool".

    I personally think it's the Tribble offspring of a Transformer and Millennium Falcon and is awful. What I'd like, is something Starfleet, not the Captain's boyfriend's hot-rod...get me? Jeez.
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    naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    kayajay wrote: »
    My argument is...why is Book's ship superior to anything Starfleet has to offer! 32nd Century Starfleet haven't got anything that's designed to do what Book's ship does...seriously? No Runabouts, so Delta Flyers, no Class 2 Shuttles, with detached nacelles, organic hulls, crappy matter, that can change shape themselves, etc. Book's ship, unless I'm massively mistaken, isn't Starfleet. I don't even know if he built it himself, which would at least be something, but it's being used lackadaisical, because the Producers think it's "cool".

    I personally think it's the Tribble offspring of a Transformer and Millennium Falcon and is awful. What I'd like, is something Starfleet, not the Captain's boyfriend's hot-rod...get me? Jeez.
    Because Book's ship is an actual ship, and not a shuttlecraft. Starfleet shuttlecraft have been shown to be inferior to actual ships of many species across the franchise because they are shuttlecraft, and not full ships. Even if Starfleet had made a transformable shuttlecraft, using Book's ship would still be the better option because its a full ship, and not a shuttlecraft. There's nothing saying the Federation doesn't have shuttles that can do similar morphing things, they would still just be inferior to Book's ship because they are shuttles, and not a full ship like Book's ship is.

    This has nothing to do with it being "cool" is just logically an objectively better ship then a shuttlecraft because its a full blown ship and not a shuttlecraft.
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    naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    kayajay wrote: »
    My argument is...why is Book's ship superior to anything Starfleet has to offer! 32nd Century Starfleet haven't got anything that's designed to do what Book's ship does...seriously? No Runabouts, so Delta Flyers, no Class 2 Shuttles, with detached nacelles, organic hulls, crappy matter, that can change shape themselves, etc. Book's ship, unless I'm massively mistaken, isn't Starfleet. I don't even know if he built it himself, which would at least be something, but it's being used lackadaisical, because the Producers think it's "cool".

    I personally think it's the Tribble offspring of a Transformer and Millennium Falcon and is awful. What I'd like, is something Starfleet, not the Captain's boyfriend's hot-rod...get me? Jeez.
    Because Book's ship is an actual ship, and not a shuttlecraft. Starfleet shuttlecraft have been shown to be inferior to actual ships of many species across the franchise because they are shuttlecraft, and not full ships. Even if Starfleet had made a transformable shuttlecraft, using Book's ship would still be the better option because its a full ship, and not a shuttlecraft. There's nothing saying the Federation doesn't have shuttles that can do similar morphing things, they would still just be inferior to Book's ship because they are shuttles, and not a full ship like Book's ship is.

    This has nothing to do with it being "cool", is just logically a better ship then a shuttlecraft because its a full blown ship and not a shuttlecraft.
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    kayajay wrote: »
    My argument is...why is Book's ship superior to anything Starfleet has to offer! 32nd Century Starfleet haven't got anything that's designed to do what Book's ship does...seriously? No Runabouts, so Delta Flyers, no Class 2 Shuttles, with detached nacelles, organic hulls, crappy matter, that can change shape themselves, etc. Book's ship, unless I'm massively mistaken, isn't Starfleet. I don't even know if he built it himself, which would at least be something, but it's being used lackadaisical, because the Producers think it's "cool".

    I personally think it's the Tribble offspring of a Transformer and Millennium Falcon and is awful. What I'd like, is something Starfleet, not the Captain's boyfriend's hot-rod...get me? Jeez.
    Because Book's ship is an actual ship, and not a shuttlecraft. Starfleet shuttlecraft have been shown to be inferior to actual ships of many species across the franchise because they are shuttlecraft, and not full ships. Even if Starfleet had made a transformable shuttlecraft, using Book's ship would still be the better option because its a full ship, and not a shuttlecraft. There's nothing saying the Federation doesn't have shuttles that can do similar morphing things, they would still just be inferior to Book's ship because they are shuttles, and not a full ship like Book's ship is.

    This has nothing to do with it being "cool", is just logically a better ship then a shuttlecraft because its a full blown ship and not a shuttlecraft.

    Why though is Book's ship better than anything a Starfleet Corp of Engineers can build! Why can't they make their own "ship"? This is what I'm saying...if Discovery needs a ship as a secondary vessel, then why not use their own? Starfleet aren't salvage hunters. They didn't have a choice with DS9 but to use what they got, because it was a liberated Bajoran station...it wasn't Starfleet built, but it was a Federation outpost.

    Book's ship, unquestionably, is here because it's considered "cool". No. Other. Reason. Whatsoever, so stop trying to justify it. Is Disco was real, there's no way Discovery would be using it...but Disco isn't real, or believable, or pleasant. Period.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    There IS a justification - you just refuse to see it due to your blind, narrow-minded hatred of anything Discovery.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • Options
    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    There IS a justification - you just refuse to see it due to your blind, narrow-minded hatred of anything Discovery.​​

    I see with crystal clarity, an open mind and no hatred for Discovery...disappointment certainly, but you're blinded by the desperate need to convince people that Discovery is just as valid as every other Star Trek. You can't stand that anyone objects to it, maybe not even because you genuinely believe it's good, but because it's a cause. You're somewhere between a cause and PC madness over something that doesn't even effect you.

    We're all entitled to our opinions, you feel the need to make this personal, which on my part is definitely is not, because I like opinions, free discussion, opposing views and not to burn people with a differing view.

    I dislike Disco for reasons I have no need to go into detail of, I will however comment on my personal view that it's illogical as Mike loves to say, to use that ship. Your opinion is different, which I'm fine with an unlike a bible basher on your doorstep, desperate to convince someone that their faith is the only one, I'm not going to try and dissuade you or disrespect you.

    Please don't disrespect me. I have nothing against you, I have an opinion of a television show that I feel it done poorly and I'm offering a reasonable explanation for my views...please do the same, without trying to bully me into agreeing with you.
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    naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    kayajay wrote: »
    Why though is Book's ship better than anything a Starfleet Corp of Engineers can build! Why can't they make their own "ship"? This is what I'm saying...if Discovery needs a ship as a secondary vessel, then why not use their own? Starfleet aren't salvage hunters. They didn't have a choice with DS9 but to use what they got, because it was a liberated Bajoran station...it wasn't Starfleet built, but it was a Federation outpost.

    Book's ship, unquestionably, is here because it's considered "cool". No. Other. Reason. Whatsoever, so stop trying to justify it. Is Disco was real, there's no way Discovery would be using it...but Disco isn't real, or believable, or pleasant. Period.
    Because a shuttlecraft is a shuttlecraft, and it doesn't matter how advanced your tech is, a shuttlecraft is only so big, and only has so much space for things like power cores, weapons, and other features. Its like asking why can't Starfleet in TNG make a suttlecraft better then a Cardassian Galor, even though the Federation's technology is shown to be superior to the Cardassian's. Because a Galor is a full ship, whereas a shuttlecraft is a shuttlecraft. And why spend resources on making a ship that does the same thing as Book's ship when Book's ship already exists, does those things, and hes willing to let the Federation(or at least Dsicovery) use it? That's just a poor use of resources by any metric.

    Its perfectly reasonable. It makes total sense within the context of the setting, and by real world logic. You just want to find any reason to find fault in Discovery.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,409 Arc User
    Kayajay, why don't you use a Type-F or even Type-8 shuttlecraft in "The Vault"? Because runabouts are right there for each faction, the runabout is larger, more capable, and better armed for the inevitable conflict.

    Similarly, Book's ship, which really needs a name, is larger, more capable, and better-armed than a shuttlecraft. The fact that these are 32C shuttles is unimportant, as Book's ship is from the same era. And why would Starfleet divert resources needed for rebuilding the Fleet as a whole to make a new captain's gig for the Discovery, when Book's ship already fills that role neatly?

    And if you don't hate DSC, your posting history sure won't reveal that. You complain about the plots, the writing, the acting, the characters, the actors (separate from their acting), the ship designs, the viewscreen, and I've been waiting for complaints about the programmable-matter controls.
    And yet...I can overlook all of those things on an episode that's well-written and well-acted.
    Oh, you mean like "Spock's Brain", or "The Omega Glory", or "Angel One", or "Code of Honor", or "Move Along Home", or...
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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    starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    And on another note..... having seen the trailer for S4 Ep4, am I the only one wondering whether Tilly might be leaving DSC to be the 'known' character for the rumored 'Starfleet Academy' series?

    Just speculation, of course, but with Saru having returned and taken the XO post, and the resident science genius role filled by Stamets and Adira, it doesn't seem as if Tilly has a clearly defined role anymore and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the direction they're taking her in.

    It is possible since Tilly was having some problems in the last episode and was trying to get out of her comfort zone. So becoming part of the Starfleet Academy series is definitely a possibility. However, it is too early to tell what century Starfleet Academy will be set. It could be set in the 32nd Century or the 25th Century after Picard for all we know.
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    saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,402 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    And on another note..... having seen the trailer for S4 Ep4, am I the only one wondering whether Tilly might be leaving DSC to be the 'known' character for the rumored 'Starfleet Academy' series?

    Just speculation, of course, but with Saru having returned and taken the XO post, and the resident science genius role filled by Stamets and Adira, it doesn't seem as if Tilly has a clearly defined role anymore and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the direction they're taking her in.
    With how the story is going, it wouldn't surprise me.

    Right now, we have:
    -Burnham: Captain
    -Saru: Captain, XO, main science officer, Kelpien representative, alien character, etc. whatever the plot needs him to be
    -Book: Civilian, consultant, love interest, owner of the main "shuttle-like" ship
    -Grudge: Queen
    -Culbert: Doctor
    -Stamets: Main "quirky" science officer, Spore Drive nav
    -Adira: Secondary science officer, non-binary character
    -Gray: Second alien character, trans character
    -Linus: Science officer... yet another one
    -Owo: Ops officer
    -Detmer: Helm, Conn officer
    -Reno: Miracle worker chief(?) engineer
    -Tilly: Acting captain, XO, engineering officer, quirky character, etc. whatever the plot needs her to be for just one-two episode(s)

    Really, it feels like since they've been adding more and more characters, Tilly hasn't had much of a set role. And unlike Saru getting to have unique alien abilities and arguably being the best character overall, Tilly doesn't have anything special anymore to contrast with the rest of the roster no matter the position the plot demands her to take. She's... just here, having lines anyone else could get.

    There is the security chief position that doesn't really have someone to really fit in, but Tilly isn't much of a fighter or someone likely to tell the captain "brb, need to grab a phaser and assemble a team to kick a boarding party off our ship".
    #TASforSTO
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    Tilly can definitely play-act a fighter - she pulled off her mirror counterpart well enough - but yes, she definitely isn't much of one.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
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    kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    You know, it would be so much more interesting for Tilly is she had an affair with Book, left/Burnham threw a hissy-fit and threw her off the ship and she and Book went off in his super ship.

    I thought it was a bit cheeky that since Saru came back, she lost her XO job. He could have returned just as a Neelix/Kes member of the crew, but no longer Starfleet. Or, why not give him the Janeway? Or, have Burnham bounced back to XO and Saru become captain. Or, or, or, Burnham finally realize that she can't be captain and still act the way she does, she she does...something else and Tilly stays XO.

    @saurializard You are bang-on with your breakdown and I do think Discovery suffers from the "Alien: Covenant" effect. It's got literally twice as many characters as any other Star Trek series ever and there are so many, that I can't keep track, can't remember their names and there's next to no character development, so I don't care about them. I don't root for them and I don't wish them dead...I don't care if they live or die and that's worse.

    Seven characters has always worked well, because it gives each cast member a chance to shine in any one episode. And yeah, sometimes you had a Kira episode, or a Tuvok one, but the others still participated in some way. Right now, all 13 characters appear on screen, but it's really only Burnham who has the spotlight.

    If that's what the show really wants, then she should be on the Discovery alone, maybe just with the sentient ship's computer...a bit like Knightrider. She could easily be Michael Knight with Discovery being Kitt and maybe that combination would work.
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    naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    kayajay wrote: »
    @saurializard You are bang-on with your breakdown and I do think Discovery suffers from the "Alien: Covenant" effect. It's got literally twice as many characters as any other Star Trek series ever and there are so many, that I can't keep track, can't remember their names and there's next to no character development, so I don't care about them. I don't root for them and I don't wish them dead...I don't care if they live or die and that's worse.

    Seven characters has always worked well, because it gives each cast member a chance to shine in any one episode. And yeah, sometimes you had a Kira episode, or a Tuvok one, but the others still participated in some way. Right now, all 13 characters appear on screen, but it's really only Burnham who has the spotlight.

    If that's what the show really wants, then she should be on the Discovery alone, maybe just with the sentient ship's computer...a bit like Knightrider. She could easily be Michael Knight with Discovery being Kitt and maybe that combination would work.
    What you describe here sounds more like TOS then DSC honestly.
    • Large cast of characters(Kirk, Spock, Bones, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, Chekov, Chapel, and various other reoccurring crewmen like Leslie, and Hadley)
    • Only a few get the spotlight(TOS in famous for being the Kirk/Bones/Spock show, with everyone else barely getting any real screentime besides to say a minor thing/do minor action. Even then Bones and Spock often got shafted in favor of Kirk)
    • No character development(Gene Roddenberry infamously hated the idea of character development, believed everyone in the future was perfect, and did everything to ban character focused episodes/character development like situations)
    Discovery may have the first two, as has every Trek, but it beats out pretty much every other Trek show besides DS9 in the character development department.

    Burnham, Stamets, Saru, Mirror Phillipa, and even Tilly to a lesser extent, have all have pretty large character arcs through the shows 3, going on 4, seasons. Even for newer characters, I would say Book has has more character development in the handful of episodes hes been in compared to even someone like Kirk got throughout all of TOS's run.
    Right now, we have:
    -Burnham: Captain
    -Saru: Captain, XO, main science officer, Kelpien representative, alien character, etc. whatever the plot needs him to be
    -Book: Civilian, consultant, love interest, owner of the main "shuttle-like" ship
    -Grudge: Queen
    -Culbert: Doctor
    -Stamets: Main "quirky" science officer, Spore Drive nav
    -Adira: Secondary science officer, non-binary character
    -Gray: Second alien character, trans character
    -Linus: Science officer... yet another one
    -Owo: Ops officer
    -Detmer: Helm, Conn officer
    -Reno: Miracle worker chief(?) engineer
    -Tilly: Acting captain, XO, engineering officer, quirky character, etc. whatever the plot needs her to be for just one-two episode(s)
    Counting Reno, Grudge, and Linus, is pretty unfair given that they show up less then characters like Leslie, or Hadley did in TOS. Are you going to count Spot, and Ro Laren for TNG?
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    saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,402 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Counting Reno, Grudge, and Linus, is pretty unfair given that they show up less then characters like Leslie, or Hadley did in TOS. Are you going to count Spot, and Ro Laren for TNG?
    All three were partly here as a joke (except Reno, mostly, since Discovery indeed doesn't focus much on the Engineering divisions, seems to mix the Sciences division with it and Reno is awesome at the job when she is used).

    But I would have definitely included Spot and Ro in a similar list, anyway, since Spot is indeed important to Data's development (even if it's mostly for laughs and/or offscreen) and Ro was one of the most prominent recurring alien crewmembers (which, at this time, was indeed not much, especially compared to Deanna, Guinan and Worf).

    And Leslie and Hadley's counterparts (in term of relevance) in Discovery would be closer to Rhys, Pollard and Nilsson.
    Discovery may have the first two, as has every Trek, but it beats out pretty much every other Trek show besides DS9 in the character development department.
    Which actually showcases how badly underdeveloped the other characters in early-TNG, ENT, VOY were, not how better TOS and DSC are.
    There is a reason why Voyager was sometimes considered the "Seven and the Doctor's Show, starring Janeway" once Jeri Ryan showed up and got some great writing.
    Heck, that was one of the reasons Denise Crosby left TNG.
    Burnham, Stamets, Saru, Mirror Phillipa, and even Tilly to a lesser extent, have all have pretty large character arcs through the shows 3, going on 4, seasons.
    Burnham, Saru and Mirror!Georgiou, yes (and in the case of Georgiou, it was mostly in her two-episode final appearance and incredibly subtle starting season 2 since she was still the Token Evil Teammate of the crew).
    But Tilly and Stamets? Sure Stamets got some character development that was then mostly switched back to the status quo once Culber was resurrected and the drama around whether he was the original Culber or not and that they should rekindle their relationship or not was resolved.
    Heck, even the whole "living kinda out of normal space and time" gimmick Stamets gained after Ripper/Ephraim was freed was dropped, leaving only the "can use the spore drive and that's it" bit of it.

    Which is the main problem I and others have, especially with Tilly: we had some character development but then, not only does it stop happening but it feels like it didn't stick.
    Even for newer characters, I would say Book has has more character development in the handful of episodes hes been in compared to even someone like Kirk got throughout all of TOS's run.
    Well, as you mentioned, not only Roddenberry didn't feel like giving the characters developments, but it was also the golden age of the "Status Quo is God" trope. Only when the movies started happening and thus society and viewers' expectations marched on did things changed (or not, which resulted in poorer ratings, like with VOY and ENT).
    Post edited by saurializard on
    #TASforSTO
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    naabal421#0722 naabal421 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    Which actually showcases how badly underdeveloped the other characters in early-TNG, ENT, VOY were, not how better TOS and DSC are.
    There is a reason why Voyager was sometimes considered the "Seven and the Doctor's Show, starring Janeway" once Jeri Ryan showed up and got some great writing.
    Heck, that was one of the reasons Denise Crosby left TNG.
    Well TOS was just as bad as TNG, VOY, and ENT, in that regard. DSC is a large step up from all of them, not as good as DS9, but its much better for the fact its actually put effort/development into itself. Though comparing a completed show like DS9 to one in progress like DSC is a bit unfair since we can see the full arcs of these characters to completion, whereas DSC's are still developing.
    Burnham, Saru and Mirror!Georgiou, yes (and in the case of Georgiou, it was mostly in her two-episode final appearance and incredibly subtle starting season 2 since she was still the Token Evil Teammate of the crew).
    But Tilly and Stamets? Sure Stamets got some character development that was then mostly switched back to the status quo once Culber was resurrected and the drama around whether he was the original Culber or not and that they should rekindle their relationship or not was resolved.
    Heck, even the whole "living kinda out of normal space and time" gimmick Stamets gained after Ripper/Ephraim was freed was dropped, leaving only the "can use the spore drive and that's it" bit of it.

    Which is the main problem I and others have, especially with Tilly: we had some character development but then, not only does it stop happening but it feels like it didn't stick..
    I think Stamets has had some pretty noticeable character growth. Back in S1 he was super curmudgeonly, standoffish, and generally didn't get along with anyone. Over the seasons hes mellowed out massively, and shows a lot more empathy towards others, and willingness to get along with others. He's still a bit of a curmudgeonly scientist, but hes very noticeably different now then back in S1.

    I would agree about this with Tilly TBH. Shes the one character I don't think they know what they really want to do with, so shes kinda waffled around across the seasons.
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