I played this TFO for the first time today. I went in knowing literally nothing about it and just followed the verbal instructions and visual indicators and everything seemed to go well enough and took about 15 mins to complete. I'll give it another go tomorrow and hope it goes as smoothly
I'm gonna be honest, until my latest run I COMPLETELY misunderstood how this queue worked. I thought only the Kristak would target you, and when you were targeted you had to go to the Targ, so that's what I always did, infact I never noticed before that the circles around one of the ships turns green when you're targeted. So I definitely caused some of my early runs to go longer than necessary.
Now that I DO understand it though, I have a few issues for the Devs. First, if you have a bunch of science captains in the run it can be IMPOSSIBLE at times to see where the hell either ship is due to all the obnoxious ability spam blocking absolutely EVERYTHING from view.
Second, there should be a brief cooldown after getting targeted by one ship so that you can't get targeted by the other right after. If for example I'm over at the Kristak and it targets me, I gotta pop evasive to make it over to the Targ in time, possibly something else as well if I'm flying a slow ship. If the Targ then targets me right after then I have no way to get back to the Kristak in time because all my mobility buttons are on cooldown. I know the prevailing engines would solve that but I don't like zooming across the map every single time I hit one of my firing mode or healing abilities.
R&D, Engineering, Deuterium Surplus. You can craft it with Engineering level 2. Put a stack of that in a device slot, grab the "Deuterium Burn" dealie from the P menu and slap it in a quickbar slot, and you now have a second Evasive Maneuvers. Use one when the other is on CD and you can zip around like a demented ground squirrel on crystal meth.
I doubt many are trying to mess it up, it's just the mechanic is not explained in the TFO itself and sort of requires you to play the mission that also doesn't really explain it well.
^^ This. TFO is designed badly. Simply put: it's entirely too chaotic. "When you're targeted"?! LOL, a zillion ships are targeting me! Allegedly one of the 2 main Klink ships is targeting me, and then I'm supposed to notice this? Granted, it will tell you, but there's no visual confirmation (or way of knowing someone else is being targeted now). And sometimes I need to kill a cloaking device, and the game is yelling at me, saying a repair ship is on its way. Lolwut? A zillion ships are on the way, always. I am killing a lot, but never even know I'm hitting the right ship even. It's just too messy. And I never am given a real chance to figure out what I'm supposed to do. At times you have to upload a virus. At least that comes with a visual.
Sometimes I think I'm too blonde for this game, LOL; but I know it's not just me. I play everything, really. But this has been the first time where it's still all too fuzzy for my poor brain.
2nd run today, and it went smoothly again. Maybe it's a good thing I waited a week before playing and people are finally used to it?
Even when it was newer I only ran into 2-3 runs where people really messed it up. It was pretty quickly learned by the people who care to learn the TFOs.
The problem is not just learning it. The problem is the poor design and bugs that stop you doing it even when you know what to do. Your acting like its the other players not knowing how to play when its more then that. There is a clear problem with poor design of the TFO which is not the players. The devs really need to fix this.
When it works it is a good TFO but there is clearly a problem with the arrows and circles. My first 2 runs went smoothly which is why I first thought it was the players. Then the past few days I missed a fair few due to poor design and bugs with the TFO itself. Now I understand why so many players are struggling.
"When you're targeted"?! LOL, a zillion ships are targeting me! Allegedly one of the 2 main Klink ships is targeting me, and then I'm supposed to notice this? Granted, it will tell you, but there's no visual confirmation (or way of knowing someone else is being targeted now).
Except this is demosntrably wrong.
-When you are targeted a giant target symbol appears around your ship
-Also, the red ring around the ship you need to fly too turns green
-Likewise, when someone else is targeted you can see the giant target on thier ship also.
But can you? With hundreds of ships attacking you, pardon me if I don't have the time to let my eyes peruse the field, to see who else might be the target now. And half the time, there's no ring around my ship at all. It's simply bad design. With ships coming at you from all sides, and half the time markers not showing (notably when you're not close enough, it seems), the field is simply too chaotic.
Also, simply consider ceterus paribus. With the playerbase not suddenly having gone dumber, the sharp drop in performance for this TFO is simply due to bad design -- regardless of whether you manage just fine.
Crowd Control does seem to help a lot. I've mostly run it on my TOS sci with her High End Grav Well build. Its not QUITE Megawell status but its close enough that it grabs 90% of things. If you can maintain a Grav Well in the middle... cue maniacle laughter.
I've also had no problems seeing the indicators. If I can't see my target ship when I'm targeted, I just follow the arrow next to my ship.
I wonder if the issue of indicators not showing up might be settings based or something. Or maybe its because I'm not zoomed all the way out. Who knows.
"When you're targeted"?! LOL, a zillion ships are targeting me! Allegedly one of the 2 main Klink ships is targeting me, and then I'm supposed to notice this? Granted, it will tell you, but there's no visual confirmation (or way of knowing someone else is being targeted now).
Except this is demonstrably wrong.
-When you are targeted a giant target symbol appears around your ship
-An arrow appears next to your ship to point you to the ship you need to fly too.
-Also, the red ring around the ship you need to fly too turns green
-Likewise, when someone else is targeted you can see the giant target on their ship also.
And the repair ships, and the fleeing BoPs, also have a giant target icons above them so its functionally impossible to not see them in the crowd.
No matter how many times you keep saying this...it is very much NOT TRUE. We have people who have said REPEATEDLY that they can not see some or all of those...especially with visual spam of OTHER PLAYERS tossed into the mix. YOU might not have any problems...but that once again does not mean others do not. You really need to stop with the I don't have a problem so nobody does BS you keep trying to push.
Also YOU might not have any problems keeping track of all the things happening on the screen, but that does not mean EVERYONE ELSE CAN either. Meimeitoo is flat out telling you that they are having problems keeping track of what is happening on the map and you are saying that is impossible because YOU can do it just fine. YOU ARE NOT EVERYONE ELSE.
I wonder if the issue of indicators not showing up might be settings based or something. Or maybe its because I'm not zoomed all the way out. Who knows.
If only there was a way to discover such things before releasing them to the public, especially if it's a new kind of mechanisms using new elements of UI... some kind of phase in development, like a... testing phase.
I wonder if the issue of indicators not showing up might be settings based or something. Or maybe its because I'm not zoomed all the way out. Who knows.
If only there was a way to discover such things before releasing them to the public, especially if it's a new kind of mechanisms using new elements of UI... some kind of phase in development, like a... testing phase.
Unfortunately Cryptic is more concerned with keeping these things secret until release than they are with play testing, otherwise it would've been enabled when the patch was on Tribble (apparently all the content was there during the big stress tests they did, it was just hidden).
We aren't going to know how many people are struggling with the mission objectives in Remain Klingon because the target isn't displaying properly, or they can't see it because of visual spam, and how many just aren't paying attention, unless we somehow manage to a take a survey in which a statistically relevant portion of the player base participate. Good luck with that. Players who post on the forums are generally more interested in the game than those who don't, and are therefore more likely to know how to do the mission objectives, and only struggle with them because of legit technical problems, than the game's populace in general.
I will say it doesn't help that Martok explains verbally that you have to get one dreadnought to shoot the other, whilst you're in combat with about 50 enemy ships. Even if you can clearly see everything, your focus might somewhere other than on Martok and what he's telling you to do. Could it be put in the mission briefing? I know a lot of people dismiss the briefing, but at least try.
Based on the tactical awareness of STO players I've witnessed over the past few years though, I definitely think years of TFO design letting players away with ignoring objectives is a contributing factor to players failing to follow objectives in Remain Klingon. Even basics like spreading out across multiple points that need to be defended eludes some people. But more often than not there's someone there with the ability to zip about the map and deal 2 billion DPS (or whatever the benchmark is now) and bail them out. And even if the team fail to escort all the troopships, stop all the prison transports from escaping, rescue that many people from the Martian surface or whatever, what happens? You lose 20 or 30 marks. Big deal. (And yes, I know someone posted a list of various options that could cause you to lose 100s at a time, but you're always going to get some of those just by having enough damage output from the team. Not to mention your daily bonus is always there to soften the blow)
Make brainless content, you get brainless players.
That all being said Remain Klingon has improved (for me at least) quite a bit since it dropped. There's usually at least 3 who know what they're at, sometimes even the entire team, vs. only 1 or 2 at the start.
"When you're targeted"?! LOL, a zillion ships are targeting me! Allegedly one of the 2 main Klink ships is targeting me, and then I'm supposed to notice this? Granted, it will tell you, but there's no visual confirmation (or way of knowing someone else is being targeted now).
Except this is demonstrably wrong.
-When you are targeted a giant target symbol appears around your ship
-An arrow appears next to your ship to point you to the ship you need to fly too.
-Also, the red ring around the ship you need to fly too turns green
-Likewise, when someone else is targeted you can see the giant target on their ship also.
And the repair ships, and the fleeing BoPs, also have a giant target icons above them so its functionally impossible to not see them in the crowd.
It literally is, which is why most people were able to grasp it after day 1 of playing it.
You have to actively be not looking at your ship to miss the giant target symbol on it, actively not be looking around your ship to miss the arrow that appears next to it, actively not looking at either dred to miss the giant circles turning green to tell you where you need to go, and actively not listening to the audio where the NPCs tell you that you are targeted, and need to fly to one of the dreds. In short, you have to actively be not playing the game to not understand it just from an audio/video standpoint.
There's really no way they can make this easier besides Cryptic actively taking control of your ship and flying you over to the dreds automatically.
It literally isn’t. What you said before is demonstrably wrong. Like other people have reported I had one run where I changed ships away from my normal ship and there was no targeted giant target symbol, no arrow, no red/green ring, no countdown timer throughout the entire TFO.
I had another run where I missed the arrow and countdown timer once as it got lost with visual spam and by the time it appeared only 3 seconds remained. In that run another person who know what he was doing ran into the same problem. Its not that we are not looking harder enough in that run it just wasn't there as its layer behind the effects. This has only happened to me in 1 run but it still happened and effected everyone in the team.
In yet another run with my full carrier the arrow and countdown timer appeared behind the UI so I didn’t see it behind the weapons and hangar bays. By the time it moved from behind the UI there wasn’t enough time left for me to react. It seems a bit silly to me to have a critical arrow and countdown time completely hidden behind the main UI.
As for you calling the target giant it seems to scale based off something. Possibly the ship. Sometimes it’s giant, sometimes its tiny and you can barely see it and sometimes its either invisible or so small its effectively invisible. I haven't done enough testing to be sure but from my limited runs it appears to be related to ship size. Excluding visuals spam and UI runs the only time its been invisible is when I have been in tiny Escorts. Not had a problem in the large cruisers and dreadnoughts but I haven't done enough runs to be 100% sure.
My first few runs went perfectly so I know what to do and what to look for. The problem is very much the TFO.
No matter how many times you keep saying this...it is very much NOT TRUE. We have people who have said REPEATEDLY that they can not see some or all of those...especially with visual spam of OTHER PLAYERS tossed into the mix. YOU might not have any problems...but that once again does not mean others do not. You really need to stop with the I don't have a problem so nobody does BS you keep trying to push.
Also YOU might not have any problems keeping track of all the things happening on the screen, but that does not mean EVERYONE ELSE CAN either. Meimeitoo is flat out telling you that they are having problems keeping track of what is happening on the map and you are saying that is impossible because YOU can do it just fine. YOU ARE NOT EVERYONE ELSE.
Given that the people claiming to have issues with this TFO are the same group of people who habitually complain about literally everything, while theres been numerous people who have said they have no issues... I'm going to take the side of occam's razor and say it literally just is the constant complainers trying to find any reason to complain.
Saying its the TFO would mean everyone would be having the same issues, as everyone is playing the same TFO, and no one can change that. However, everyone is demonstrably not having the same issues, so it can't be the TFO, it has to be those people having issues. Saying its the TFO is like saying its the game's fault you are getting lag, when everyone else isn't experiencing lag. At that point, its just your internet connection, or the path it takes from your house to the game, and not the game itself.
Not to mention this is the same kind of "issues" we have seen with other TFOs like Undine Assault, Gravity Kills, the Cooperative TFOs, and even more basic ones like Operation Riposte, all of which use at least giant visual visual cues to point out major objectives, and sometimes audio queues. The majority of the game's playerbase was able to do them right after playing them once or twice, while theres always one small group of people who don't do the objectives/can't figure them out. Which leads me to believe its just them.
For someone who appears to have such a wide expreince over so many MMO’s and games I cannot believe that you generally think if there is a problem with a TFO then everyone will have the issues as everyone is playing the same TFO. You all of people should know much better then that. More often than not bugs and problems do not affect everyone or every run. Take Synth Wave it used to only bug out for me one out of every 15runs until they fixed it. Same for this TFO 95% of runs have been perfect, it’s only rare run where I have ran into bugs. Like I said before when it works correctly I really like the format and idea behind this TFO. It solves just about everything I have been complaining about in other TFO's.
As for lag need I remind you about the lag problem in ISA years back that something like 95% or 98% of the player base didn’t expreince. People like you and possibly you at the time said along the lines of “is like saying its the game's fault you are getting lag, when everyone else isn't experiencing lag. At that point, its just your internet connection, or the path it takes from your house to the game,” only it turned out to be 100% the game in this case related to a combination of factors so it only effected a tiny portion of the player base.
Two more recent examples recently there was a weapon fire bug where some people could not fire weapons. There was also another bug where people couldn't see glass or see there own weapon sfx bug. I never expreince either bug and none of my friends talked about it in game while I was online and no one talked about it in local zone chat while I was at ESD. Should I have your attitude and go its all the players as everyone would be having the same issues, as everyone is playing the same. I guess I should deny those bugs are real and blame the players.
The bulk of people saying there are no issues doesn’t mean there are no issues. This is more a case of you are wrong yet again and in your typical fashion instead of acknowledging the problem you want to blame everyone else.
3rd run today. Another success, no problems with the team. The only problem I had was one time, immediately after being targeted, I got a SNR and was kicked out. Fortunately I was able to log back in very quickly and still make to the ship in time
So, all I can say is, this is what it looks like for me. This is zoomed in at 1440p, which isn't how I usually play, I like to be a little zoomed out, and I cut off some of the image to reduce file size, but made sure to keep in the targeting markers and 'fly here' markers, along with a good bit of space magic spam. When you zoom in on your ship, it makes the big green marker seem smaller, but the timer and arrow seem to get bigger. If you're in a really big ship, like the Vengeance, I could see some of the things being covered, but as long as it's layering properly, I don't see the issue. Which is part of the problem here, I haven't seen the issue, and can't say what problems others are having.
Wow, that's a remarkably clean view. Where's the multiple giant orange tornadoes, and whatever that big (white?) cloud spewing sideways is, and.... etc.
(sorry, I don't know the names of half the current popular effects. I only just saw them in the Tholian event. I don't generally run TFOs. I'll have to try this one once to see how the indicators show up for me.)
So, all I can say is, this is what it looks like for me.
I personally find MMOs almost unplayable when zoomed in that close during combat, I'd never run a queue like that. For me, it looks like this:
The arrow is barely noticeable and the timer is illegible, infact I didn't even notice either one until after I saw people mentioning them in this thread. Also depending on the angle the arrow at times is nothing more than a straight yellow line due to it's design. As for things getting covered up, for me that only happens when there are several science captains spamming an excessive amount of space magic, if enough abilities are triggered near you it can become impossible to distinguish anything because the screen looks more like a crazy acid trip than a video game. The first couple days this was happening to me almost every time I did it, but thankfully that has died down now.
Edit: YouTube finally finished processing the video I recorded of that run, so here it is, link should be set to the only time I got targeted in this run but if not it is at 4:57 https://youtu.be/M4Xh5KtP6ow?t=297
I think this is great. You went to the effort to make a video, and it highlights, however briefly, one of the observations I made. The big green target circle on your ship seems to have a fixed screen size, while the arrow and timer scale with your zoom. You can also see the timer briefly on a jem hadar ally ship, which suggests they may scale with ship size too, so I'd love to see what it looks like with a universe class. it's abundantly clear when you are targeted, and even without the arrow, it's easy to see the ship you're supposed to fly to when you look around. However, that's on our machines with our settings. If we can get the people having issues to post some screen shots or videos, that's what I really want to see. I want to understand the issue, see what it's like for the people that have it, instead of endless arguing. Maybe for Cryptic the best solution would be to add an arrow over the top of the target zone when you're targeted, like the flashy ones they use in the Dyson ground zone now.
For my part, I was trying to find something of a worst case scenario, where maybe if you were super zoomed in your ship would eat the green indicator. That is obviously not the case, but again, maybe that has something to do with settings, or drivers, or sunspots, or just something that doesn't affect me, but does others.
If it was a problem with the TFOs themselves there would be a systemic failure of the playerbase to understand it/grasp it. Instead, most of the playerbase is able to understand them, with there being the same relatively small segment that doesn't.
oh so its just a small segment now? earlier you were saying it was half the playerbase
Comments
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
So it's always nice to stay pleasant and friendly! Generally I find most runs go well though.
R&D, Engineering, Deuterium Surplus. You can craft it with Engineering level 2. Put a stack of that in a device slot, grab the "Deuterium Burn" dealie from the P menu and slap it in a quickbar slot, and you now have a second Evasive Maneuvers. Use one when the other is on CD and you can zip around like a demented ground squirrel on crystal meth.
^^ This. TFO is designed badly. Simply put: it's entirely too chaotic. "When you're targeted"?! LOL, a zillion ships are targeting me! Allegedly one of the 2 main Klink ships is targeting me, and then I'm supposed to notice this? Granted, it will tell you, but there's no visual confirmation (or way of knowing someone else is being targeted now). And sometimes I need to kill a cloaking device, and the game is yelling at me, saying a repair ship is on its way. Lolwut? A zillion ships are on the way, always. I am killing a lot, but never even know I'm hitting the right ship even. It's just too messy. And I never am given a real chance to figure out what I'm supposed to do. At times you have to upload a virus. At least that comes with a visual.
Sometimes I think I'm too blonde for this game, LOL; but I know it's not just me. I play everything, really. But this has been the first time where it's still all too fuzzy for my poor brain.
When it works it is a good TFO but there is clearly a problem with the arrows and circles. My first 2 runs went smoothly which is why I first thought it was the players. Then the past few days I missed a fair few due to poor design and bugs with the TFO itself. Now I understand why so many players are struggling.
But can you? With hundreds of ships attacking you, pardon me if I don't have the time to let my eyes peruse the field, to see who else might be the target now. And half the time, there's no ring around my ship at all. It's simply bad design. With ships coming at you from all sides, and half the time markers not showing (notably when you're not close enough, it seems), the field is simply too chaotic.
Also, simply consider ceterus paribus. With the playerbase not suddenly having gone dumber, the sharp drop in performance for this TFO is simply due to bad design -- regardless of whether you manage just fine.
I've also had no problems seeing the indicators. If I can't see my target ship when I'm targeted, I just follow the arrow next to my ship.
I wonder if the issue of indicators not showing up might be settings based or something. Or maybe its because I'm not zoomed all the way out. Who knows.
Thank you!
Unfortunately Cryptic is more concerned with keeping these things secret until release than they are with play testing, otherwise it would've been enabled when the patch was on Tribble (apparently all the content was there during the big stress tests they did, it was just hidden).
I will say it doesn't help that Martok explains verbally that you have to get one dreadnought to shoot the other, whilst you're in combat with about 50 enemy ships. Even if you can clearly see everything, your focus might somewhere other than on Martok and what he's telling you to do. Could it be put in the mission briefing? I know a lot of people dismiss the briefing, but at least try.
Based on the tactical awareness of STO players I've witnessed over the past few years though, I definitely think years of TFO design letting players away with ignoring objectives is a contributing factor to players failing to follow objectives in Remain Klingon. Even basics like spreading out across multiple points that need to be defended eludes some people. But more often than not there's someone there with the ability to zip about the map and deal 2 billion DPS (or whatever the benchmark is now) and bail them out. And even if the team fail to escort all the troopships, stop all the prison transports from escaping, rescue that many people from the Martian surface or whatever, what happens? You lose 20 or 30 marks. Big deal. (And yes, I know someone posted a list of various options that could cause you to lose 100s at a time, but you're always going to get some of those just by having enough damage output from the team. Not to mention your daily bonus is always there to soften the blow)
Make brainless content, you get brainless players.
That all being said Remain Klingon has improved (for me at least) quite a bit since it dropped. There's usually at least 3 who know what they're at, sometimes even the entire team, vs. only 1 or 2 at the start.
I had another run where I missed the arrow and countdown timer once as it got lost with visual spam and by the time it appeared only 3 seconds remained. In that run another person who know what he was doing ran into the same problem. Its not that we are not looking harder enough in that run it just wasn't there as its layer behind the effects. This has only happened to me in 1 run but it still happened and effected everyone in the team.
In yet another run with my full carrier the arrow and countdown timer appeared behind the UI so I didn’t see it behind the weapons and hangar bays. By the time it moved from behind the UI there wasn’t enough time left for me to react. It seems a bit silly to me to have a critical arrow and countdown time completely hidden behind the main UI.
As for you calling the target giant it seems to scale based off something. Possibly the ship. Sometimes it’s giant, sometimes its tiny and you can barely see it and sometimes its either invisible or so small its effectively invisible. I haven't done enough testing to be sure but from my limited runs it appears to be related to ship size. Excluding visuals spam and UI runs the only time its been invisible is when I have been in tiny Escorts. Not had a problem in the large cruisers and dreadnoughts but I haven't done enough runs to be 100% sure.
My first few runs went perfectly so I know what to do and what to look for. The problem is very much the TFO.
As for lag need I remind you about the lag problem in ISA years back that something like 95% or 98% of the player base didn’t expreince. People like you and possibly you at the time said along the lines of “is like saying its the game's fault you are getting lag, when everyone else isn't experiencing lag. At that point, its just your internet connection, or the path it takes from your house to the game,” only it turned out to be 100% the game in this case related to a combination of factors so it only effected a tiny portion of the player base.
Two more recent examples recently there was a weapon fire bug where some people could not fire weapons. There was also another bug where people couldn't see glass or see there own weapon sfx bug. I never expreince either bug and none of my friends talked about it in game while I was online and no one talked about it in local zone chat while I was at ESD. Should I have your attitude and go its all the players as everyone would be having the same issues, as everyone is playing the same. I guess I should deny those bugs are real and blame the players.
The bulk of people saying there are no issues doesn’t mean there are no issues. This is more a case of you are wrong yet again and in your typical fashion instead of acknowledging the problem you want to blame everyone else.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
So, all I can say is, this is what it looks like for me. This is zoomed in at 1440p, which isn't how I usually play, I like to be a little zoomed out, and I cut off some of the image to reduce file size, but made sure to keep in the targeting markers and 'fly here' markers, along with a good bit of space magic spam. When you zoom in on your ship, it makes the big green marker seem smaller, but the timer and arrow seem to get bigger. If you're in a really big ship, like the Vengeance, I could see some of the things being covered, but as long as it's layering properly, I don't see the issue. Which is part of the problem here, I haven't seen the issue, and can't say what problems others are having.
Wow, that's a remarkably clean view. Where's the multiple giant orange tornadoes, and whatever that big (white?) cloud spewing sideways is, and.... etc.
(sorry, I don't know the names of half the current popular effects. I only just saw them in the Tholian event. I don't generally run TFOs. I'll have to try this one once to see how the indicators show up for me.)
I personally find MMOs almost unplayable when zoomed in that close during combat, I'd never run a queue like that. For me, it looks like this:
The arrow is barely noticeable and the timer is illegible, infact I didn't even notice either one until after I saw people mentioning them in this thread. Also depending on the angle the arrow at times is nothing more than a straight yellow line due to it's design. As for things getting covered up, for me that only happens when there are several science captains spamming an excessive amount of space magic, if enough abilities are triggered near you it can become impossible to distinguish anything because the screen looks more like a crazy acid trip than a video game. The first couple days this was happening to me almost every time I did it, but thankfully that has died down now.
Edit: YouTube finally finished processing the video I recorded of that run, so here it is, link should be set to the only time I got targeted in this run but if not it is at 4:57
For my part, I was trying to find something of a worst case scenario, where maybe if you were super zoomed in your ship would eat the green indicator. That is obviously not the case, but again, maybe that has something to do with settings, or drivers, or sunspots, or just something that doesn't affect me, but does others.
oh so its just a small segment now? earlier you were saying it was half the playerbase
make up your mind already!