Endeavors are fine as they are. OP is either "mad about it" or a troll. Or both technically. Either way, no need to engage. /thread
I am fleeted with the OP and I will just say their endeavor level is high. They own all the things as it where. In our fleet there are a handful of us that have played fairly regular and even when we took breaks we kept an eye open for events and the like worth logging back in for.
In our fleet we have had a handful of old friends return the last month or so, as many people find themselves with more time on their hands. When you have stuck around or at the very least kept a toe in all these years, its easy to not notice how much has really changed. When you sit down with old friends and understand the shear volume of things to explain, yes its discouraging. Build defining traits locked behind Zen, lockbox, lobi, or promo ships... or worse traits/consoles from event ships that returning players are now allowed to purchase for Fengi prices. Now in our case out fleet of middle aged men in general have disposable income and catching up by spending some money isn't out of the question. We have a few members that pop back in every year drop a few hundred dollars and leave again.
The Endeavor system is just a new one on top... imo its just more TRIBBLE dropped on top. The issue I see for cryptic... is for a long time a handful of whales have kept this game afloat. People willing to pop in every 12 months buy $200 worth of keys so they can buy a handful of lockbox/promo ships... grind out the latest rep or whatever else is the latest "content". At some point... Cryptic will have gone to far (think we may be there) they are now at a point where they seem to be purposely adding things to Events that are so good, people that miss the events will be talked into spending $80+ dollars to pick them up from Harcourt.
I see how casual type players don't mind endeavor it gives them something for nothing... and rewards their showing up every day. The thing is... and I admit Cryptic knows the truth better then I. Its the returners, and the come and go players that pay the bills. Those of us playing every day are the ones farming Dil on 20+ toons... buying Zen from those come and go players grabbing a year supply of Dil to catch up their gear upgrades, and gamble away on Phoenix boxes. I don't know if I really know what the solution is... and perhaps I'm wrong and the every day players spending 20 bucks here and there is enough to keep the lights on, perhaps Cryptic doesn't need the people that pop in yearly and spend catching up. I would suggest that the existence of Mudds market tells us Cryptic knows that returning players are lucrative. The danger for this game I think is saying... welcome back, here spend $400 to catch up, well accept for this one system this system you will forever be behind in. I think if you tell most players like the ones I describe that no amount of money will catch you up completely, they are much more likely to say all well hey I'm playing X or Y right now why not come and join for awhile.
The Endeavor system is just a new one on top... imo its just more TRIBBLE dropped on top. The issue I see for cryptic... is for a long time a handful of whales have kept this game afloat. People willing to pop in every 12 months buy $200 worth of keys so they can buy a handful of lockbox/promo ships... grind out the latest rep or whatever else is the latest "content". At some point... Cryptic will have gone to far (think we may be there) they are now at a point where they seem to be purposely adding things to Events that are so good, people that miss the events will be talked into spending $80+ dollars to pick them up from Harcourt.
That is somewhat muddying the water with an entirely separate issue. I personally have never been a fan of the 'exclusive' item idea. I don't like granting event rewards that either can never be later attained or attained at an exorbitant price. What I hate even more is taking a limited event item and making it part of a set that otherwise costs money like making the Timeline Stabilizer part of the Flagship set.
While you won't get much argument from me on this topic, the topic here is the Endeavor system and that to me is a good system that's completely fair. It rewards players for playing but it doesn't grant anything that is required to play and enjoy the game. Cryptic needs daily logins, it's just part of how things work. This is standard with MMO's which is why every MMO you see offers some bonus for Daily Logins. I personally think Cryptic has done a good job here, the trick is making it worth the players time but at the same time not cutting off new or returning players from content. The Endeavor system has done a good job of that in my opinion. I would favor the idea of revising the 'exclusive items' policy, but Endeavors I fully support.
I'm with sea on Endeavors. They're not needed to wipe the maps with your enemies. I do that anyway, the Endeavors just give me a little boost on top of that.
No, I'm not one of the 'mad' DPSers. I barely do enough to have broken into the Bronze level, lol.
Just play the game, do the Endeavors if they mesh with what you're already doing and then do the other(s) if you feel like it.
Edit: I'm running one of my alts today and they did Sunrise for the first time and completed the first and third Endeavors on the first playthrough (Physical Damage(ground), Destroy Tholian Ships (30))
Since the web nodes count in the Thollian ship count, I was able to get that easily. The physical damage ground was easily done with the Tommy Gun. The middle one is to destroy Tzenkethi ships, so when I'm done replaying Sunrise for the mission stuff I'll run up to the BZ. It's only ten ships.
I don't even do global ones unless they're stupid easy. Such as Win 500GPL playing Dabo at Quarks, do the dance contest on Nimbus, mine dil at Vlugta. Or if it's a TFO I don't mind queuing for.
Post edited by echatty on
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Nice to see some people who view Endeavours the way I do. I sometimes have difficulty seeing past my sarcasm to write down the idea roaming around my brain.
Sea of Sorrows and echatty - Thank You both for expressing your positive opinions on this topic in ways which are cogent, reasoned and logical.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
The issue I see for cryptic... is for a long time a handful of whales have kept this game afloat. People willing to pop in every 12 months buy $200 worth of keys so they can buy a handful of lockbox/promo ships...
Why would anyone do that? I'd think the people willing to drop fat stacks would be the ones playing constantly. Not the random dudes popping in every year or so.
I see how casual type players don't mind endeavor it gives them something for nothing... and rewards their showing up every day.
Whereas I would see the 'casual' player as the one just poking at Endeavors when they happen to see ones that fit their playstyle or interest, while the ones pushing Endeavors every day and maxing out the bonuses would be the dedicated/'hardcore' players.
On top of that... when you DO get a perk point... the options available... ARE TOTALLY RANDOM. The other day I had a choice of 3 ground perks. Nothing space. It happens.
As of today, this is what I'm looking at until I'm down to less than three ground categories. I filled in every point in space with my 296th point.
In fact, I believe the time-gated nature of the Endeavor system - where you must play for YEARS with no way to accelerate the process regardless of how hard you grind - has become the single biggest obstacle to new or returning player participation in STO. The discovery that there exists a massive, unassailable skill divide between yourself and others who have played the game longer or more consistently is killing interest in the game and keeping veteran players from coming back to the STO community.
Yep i totally agree. After 1,5 year absence i returned to game only to hit this wall.
But this is not why i write this reply. Most people have a short memory, because no one pointed out, that balance between veterans, grinders, new, and returning players, was the main reason why Cryptic rev-maped reputation system years ago (they limited trait slots to 5 pick from 13 reps, from 5 pick per rep), to not boost veteran (long playing) players to much, and give new one a fair chances, only to commit endeavor system. So in the end they done exactly opposite to they statements from reputation rev-map time that they care about fair chances. Sigh.
This is misleading at best. They changed the reputation abilities to traits, and put a cap of four, later expanded with a potential purchase of a fifth one, on them due to the old system not being "infinitely scalable." You could argue that Endeavor perks will take longer to catch up on than reputation abilities would have taken if they had never changed them, but the Endeavor system, as it has stood since it was introduced, isn't infinite the way that reputations theoretically are, and especially as they were when that change was made, where there was an average of two new ones per year being added. It's also misleading to talk about the total of reputations that we have now in light of how the system used to work, being that they changed it before introducing the fifth one. That's like counting all of the coins that you could have collected from the San Francisco mint if they had never closed it down as coins that were made and taken from you.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
The Endeavor system is just a new one on top... imo its just more TRIBBLE dropped on top. The issue I see for cryptic... is for a long time a handful of whales have kept this game afloat. People willing to pop in every 12 months buy $200 worth of keys so they can buy a handful of lockbox/promo ships... grind out the latest rep or whatever else is the latest "content". At some point... Cryptic will have gone to far (think we may be there) they are now at a point where they seem to be purposely adding things to Events that are so good, people that miss the events will be talked into spending $80+ dollars to pick them up from Harcourt.
That is somewhat muddying the water with an entirely separate issue. I personally have never been a fan of the 'exclusive' item idea. I don't like granting event rewards that either can never be later attained or attained at an exorbitant price. What I hate even more is taking a limited event item and making it part of a set that otherwise costs money like making the Timeline Stabilizer part of the Flagship set.
While you won't get much argument from me on this topic, the topic here is the Endeavor system and that to me is a good system that's completely fair. It rewards players for playing but it doesn't grant anything that is required to play and enjoy the game. Cryptic needs daily logins, it's just part of how things work. This is standard with MMO's which is why every MMO you see offers some bonus for Daily Logins. I personally think Cryptic has done a good job here, the trick is making it worth the players time but at the same time not cutting off new or returning players from content. The Endeavor system has done a good job of that in my opinion. I would favor the idea of revising the 'exclusive items' policy, but Endeavors I fully support.
I agree on the issue of set items being exclusive. That is idiocy and has done nothing but frustrate me after my few years break from the game. I also agree that the endeavor system isn't required, but then nothing in the game is required. The thing is, STO doesn't even seem to send out emails to people for their events. Other games do that, letting you know some event is on, and it has this and that thing to try and entice you to return. I think I only got one email on my own break from the game offering a ship if I returned. That's getting into another issue entirely though.
Daily garbage, though, I couldn't agree less on. That is the bane of MMOs and something I absolutely hate about them. As the OP and the other person you're quoting attest to, some people have busy lives. These systems built for player retention work okay for your players with more time on their hands, aside from speeding along burnout for some people. They don't work at all for people with actual lives that can't play every day or even just don't want to play every day.
It would be really easy to design these systems with a catch up mechanic too, such as building up a weeks worth of backlog that someone could run through on a weekend. And certainly in STO's case, returning players could now also get handed a bunch of endeavor perk points if they've been gone a while, not just as a welcome back reward thing, but also to point them to the system they may not even know anything about. Instead, these games want and expect people to play every day and it does absolutely put off people who can't do that regularly.
In any case, endeavors aren't as bad as other systems, and I said it before but no one seemed to notice, while fully maxing out endeavors takes years (and no one has yet!), chance are you don't care much about resistance perks. No, its damage, and crit perks that are most valuable to people, and the system as designed does let you focus on perks you want and not so much the ones you don't. You can max out crit and damage perks in a few months in all likelihood, or resistance if you cared about those. It isn't as bad as it looks from the perspective of someone who feels left behind. That's important to consider for people who are put off by the system, because if they can spend some time working at them here and there, they can catch up in some areas relatively quickly.
The issue I see for cryptic... is for a long time a handful of whales have kept this game afloat. People willing to pop in every 12 months buy $200 worth of keys so they can buy a handful of lockbox/promo ships...
Why would anyone do that? I'd think the people willing to drop fat stacks would be the ones playing constantly. Not the random dudes popping in every year or so.
I see how casual type players don't mind endeavor it gives them something for nothing... and rewards their showing up every day.
Whereas I would see the 'casual' player as the one just poking at Endeavors when they happen to see ones that fit their playstyle or interest, while the ones pushing Endeavors every day and maxing out the bonuses would be the dedicated/'hardcore' players.
I personally know a handful of players that play exactly as I describe. I also know a lot more people like me that play almost daily... and when we take breaks we still pop by to complete events so as to not have to buy things at ferengi prices later.
There is zero doubt... the people I know that play daily spend next to nothing. I admit I don't spend a fortune... I subbed every month till the game went f2p and since I have spent a few bucks here and there but nothing crazy. 20 bucks a few times a year. In the fleet I'm in there are 4 or 5 people that do exactly as I describe... they leave for a year at a time, and when someone tells them something interesting has happened in game. They pop in and drop a bill grabbing Dil, and if they need ec they will spend some more and sell some keys or promo packs. I am not a jerk, I don't ask them how much they spend its their business. I have no doubt however that that handful of people in our fleet spend far more then the rest of us.
You know its a major market by looking at how Cryptic has treated the purchase opportunities for previous event items. Unless you believe they honestly expect a lot of us daily players (who got all that stuff for free) to pay 80 bucks (on sale) for a ship they gave away for free a year ago.
Anyway I know I'm out in the weeds... this thread was about the endeavor system. I only brought up the lucrative in and out crowd to point out that the system is unique in that its the one system that market of players (which Cryptic clearly values highly) would be the one group most turned off by a system they can't catch up on with $.
So just as a counterpoint to @husanakx message above: there are a lot of players who play casually. A lot more of them than there are whales. There are some whales who can't play all the time and so they use dollars to catch up. There are a lot more players who can't use dollars to catch up, but who can afford to play fairly consistently to stay competitive.
It's strange that someone would think having "all system buyable for dollars except this one" would be a significant problem, but not notice that maybe there's a much larger audience "most turned off by" a game that looks rather Pay-To-Win in some key areas (traits, consoles, gear) and that doesn't equally reward consistent gameplay.
Personally I'd think that having a number of systems being dollar-based, and some systems being participation-based, is exactly where a successful game would want to be. You're always going to get some people put off by the P2W parts, and some put off by the 'play every day' parts, but a decent balance there will get the most players playing and paying and happy with it.
Nice to see some people who view Endeavours the way I do. I sometimes have difficulty seeing past my sarcasm to write down the idea roaming around my brain.
Sea of Sorrows and echatty - Thank You both for expressing your positive opinions on this topic in ways which are cogent, reasoned and logical.
You're welcome. I try to help where I can.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
as others have pointed out already endlessly...it is ok as it is. Why was explained in detail by others anyway.
However, I could see a change being made by removing it from your character while in PVP zones/instances. Although PVP is dead, I can see that this would discourage anybody from ever trying PVP.
As I have proposed already years ago, PVP in thins game should be with premade ships from a certain set of available setups. Meaning you get a battle ready ship that you captain in that instance, similar to certain missions that let you fly a special ship.
Bam, equality in an instant...no scripts, no p2w, just your skill and dedication to learn the ship you are given. Monetisation possible in the form of certain ships for PVP when you purchase a ship specifically for PVP events.
Somehow I can't imagine another mmorpg game where I would come back after two years and the only difference would be +30% dmg, +7.5 crth, +30 crtD (and only hardcore players have this full bonus). For example, I still use the same (omega) set that came out eight years ago and is still usable on elite missions. I fly with 5 years old t5 jem dread. I think I can do all elite content in this game with two years old (or even older) stuff. Show me another mmorpg game where you can do this.
However, I'm sure over time they will make some endeavor boost for the money.
Anyway true powercreep is in expensive starship traits and consoles.
So just as a counterpoint to @husanakx message above: there are a lot of players who play casually. A lot more of them than there are whales. There are some whales who can't play all the time and so they use dollars to catch up. There are a lot more players who can't use dollars to catch up, but who can afford to play fairly consistently to stay competitive.
It's strange that someone would think having "all system buyable for dollars except this one" would be a significant problem, but not notice that maybe there's a much larger audience "most turned off by" a game that looks rather Pay-To-Win in some key areas (traits, consoles, gear) and that doesn't equally reward consistent gameplay.
Personally I'd think that having a number of systems being dollar-based, and some systems being participation-based, is exactly where a successful game would want to be. You're always going to get some people put off by the P2W parts, and some put off by the 'play every day' parts, but a decent balance there will get the most players playing and paying and happy with it.
That has always been Cryptics greatest strength. How they avoid any serious P2W finger pointing. Everything in STO can be had with sweat equity. There isn't anything in this game you can't get for free... by grinding it, or grinding the games dilithium resource to trade for zen with the come and go folks. (that is where all the zen for the "f2p" dil farmers comes from) someone buys it with $ so they don't have to spend time farming dilithum.
IMO the endeavor system doesn't need to be nerfed or removed or anything of the sort. I still believe it was a mistake to a system that will sit on players HUDs reminding Cryptics whales that they are not getting the full meal deal for their large spends. My suggestion would be to simply add options to buy Endeavor points somehow. I don't care what it is... add it to the larger ship packs. Throw a 5 point pack in with every ship bundle. Or add a 1-3 points in when you open a Promo pack.
I'm actually surprised that Cryptic hasn't monetized the Endeavor system by selling re-roll tokens
Then again, that could be because they often don't work.
I have so many re-roll tokens from just the prize boxes that I won't need to buy any.
They also work fine for me. It's been ages since I got bit by the re-roll bug. Usually with Lukari TFO endeavors. I got one of those to re-roll the other day.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
sooo the OP wants to nerf the endeavor system because it makes the game "Harder" for returning players? if that's the path, then lets nerf all the Fleet consoles and traits, and / or make all the exclusives for fleet types available to causal players through the dilithium store.. but since the OP is in a fleet he will say no way to that...
So just as a counterpoint to @husanakx message above: there are a lot of players who play casually. A lot more of them than there are whales. There are some whales who can't play all the time and so they use dollars to catch up. There are a lot more players who can't use dollars to catch up, but who can afford to play fairly consistently to stay competitive.
It's strange that someone would think having "all system buyable for dollars except this one" would be a significant problem, but not notice that maybe there's a much larger audience "most turned off by" a game that looks rather Pay-To-Win in some key areas (traits, consoles, gear) and that doesn't equally reward consistent gameplay.
Personally I'd think that having a number of systems being dollar-based, and some systems being participation-based, is exactly where a successful game would want to be. You're always going to get some people put off by the P2W parts, and some put off by the 'play every day' parts, but a decent balance there will get the most players playing and paying and happy with it.
That has always been Cryptics greatest strength. How they avoid any serious P2W finger pointing. Everything in STO can be had with sweat equity. There isn't anything in this game you can't get for free... by grinding it, or grinding the games dilithium resource to trade for zen with the come and go folks. (that is where all the zen for the "f2p" dil farmers comes from) someone buys it with $ so they don't have to spend time farming dilithum.
IMO the endeavor system doesn't need to be nerfed or removed or anything of the sort. I still believe it was a mistake to a system that will sit on players HUDs reminding Cryptics whales that they are not getting the full meal deal for their large spends. My suggestion would be to simply add options to buy Endeavor points somehow. I don't care what it is... add it to the larger ship packs. Throw a 5 point pack in with every ship bundle. Or add a 1-3 points in when you open a Promo pack.
Or, you know, it's fine the way it is with most people who have chimed in being quite happy how it is now. Just because you and a few of your friends are malcontent doesn't mean the playerbase is. And going by the extremely negative responses you have been getting...I think we can pretty clearly say where most of the playerbase stands on the matter. We don't need a P2W option for this. It really doesn't matter outside of already abandoned content...or because you all feel the need to measure e-peens...neither of which is a valid reason for them to add in a P2W option and you know quite possibly TRIBBLE off the playerbase. i know it would TRIBBLE ME off at the very least...so yeah F no to P2W.
Game has a pay to skip the grind for all but reputation at this point. Cryptic is way ahead of us with ways to extract $ from the whales, and folks with more money then time anyway.
I think I made clear I'm not a malcontent. I been around for almost every event everything... I haven't had to buy anyt old event stuffs from Mudd. I have a stash of 8 or 9 phoenix golds, but as I'm only really missing I think 2? (might be 3) ships I haven't had much use for them.
I am simply backing up the OP, who has raised a very valid criticism of the endeavor system. I understand the system is akin to systems that exist in most long running MMOs. I understand its a popular MMO developer mechanism to increase daily log ins. I even agree that most of the bonuses it provides are minor. (7.5% crth isn't minor at all but most of the cat 1 dmg bonuses and small bumps in other stats are) I simply understand where Cryptics bread is buttered... and frankly if your pushing 200 in the endeavor system right now, your not likely a butter churner. Cryptic adding a few of those points into "p2w" boxes wouldn't effect me and you who have been playing daily earning our points... so we would get enough to max out some ground and space stuff instead of what most people are doing right now prioritizing their space bits. I have no doubt however it would help Cryptic continue to extract the whale money that keeps most of us playing for free/low cost.
sooo the OP wants to nerf the endeavor system because it makes the game "Harder" for returning players? if that's the path, then lets nerf all the Fleet consoles and traits, and / or make all the exclusives for fleet types available to causal players through the dilithium store.. but since the OP is in a fleet he will say no way to that...
We let people jump into our Max level Fleets (Fed and KDF) all the time to grab pets consoles deflectors colony doffs ect ect. So no he would not care. We leveled our fleet and we don't really care if new players get the same access. We run a feeder fleet that has provisions for everything unlocked and toss those new friends invites to the main base all the time.
No Rck has created the thread and I have posted here... cause yes like most people we have seen some very old friends pop back into the game lately. Just last night another of my very old launch friends popped in, hasn't been in game in over 3 years till last night. So as I have no doubt most 10 year long players have been dealing with the last 2 months we get tons of questions about the new (to them) systems. It makes you realize how many things we take for granted when things change a few things at a time over years. We as a fleet have been lucky we are not a large group... we are a very small fleet in fact. We have been lucky to have a handful of players that dedicated to the game, and a few that also have deep pockets. Our fleet was completed with the help of cold hard cash and I don't care who knows it. We don't begrudge anyone what they have in game.. including endeavor stuff. Rck first suggestion was to allow people to grind tying it to the XP bar. That is one solution... I would say its easier to convince Cryptic to add a $ for points scheme. Either way works imo... it gives returning players away to catch up. As you can P2W xp points with lockbox doff missions.
Yes we are selfish... it would be nice when our old friends pop in for a few weeks every year or two they decide to stick around for a few months or more. I doubt we are the only long time players in the same boat.
I am simply backing up the OP, who has raised a very valid criticism of the endeavor system.
I wouldn't call it a "valid criticism." That type of statement artificially adds weight to what is merely a minor complaint made by a tiny minority. The first of which I've heard of. If endeavors honestly make you want to quit the game, then you're playing the wrong type of game.
And if Cryptic were to add a monetization system for bypassing endeavors, you can be 100% sure that there'd be exponentially more threads complaining about that being "predatory" or a "cash grab."
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
I am simply backing up the OP, who has raised a very valid criticism of the endeavor system.
Most of the replies in this thread disagree with the validity of the OP's complaint. We stated our reasons why we disagree and the OP threw a hissy fit and stopped responding.
So just as a counterpoint to @husanakx message above: there are a lot of players who play casually. A lot more of them than there are whales. There are some whales who can't play all the time and so they use dollars to catch up. There are a lot more players who can't use dollars to catch up, but who can afford to play fairly consistently to stay competitive.
It's strange that someone would think having "all system buyable for dollars except this one" would be a significant problem, but not notice that maybe there's a much larger audience "most turned off by" a game that looks rather Pay-To-Win in some key areas (traits, consoles, gear) and that doesn't equally reward consistent gameplay.
Personally I'd think that having a number of systems being dollar-based, and some systems being participation-based, is exactly where a successful game would want to be. You're always going to get some people put off by the P2W parts, and some put off by the 'play every day' parts, but a decent balance there will get the most players playing and paying and happy with it.
That has always been Cryptics greatest strength. How they avoid any serious P2W finger pointing. Everything in STO can be had with sweat equity. There isn't anything in this game you can't get for free... by grinding it, or grinding the games dilithium resource to trade for zen with the come and go folks. (that is where all the zen for the "f2p" dil farmers comes from) someone buys it with $ so they don't have to spend time farming dilithum.
IMO the endeavor system doesn't need to be nerfed or removed or anything of the sort. I still believe it was a mistake to a system that will sit on players HUDs reminding Cryptics whales that they are not getting the full meal deal for their large spends. My suggestion would be to simply add options to buy Endeavor points somehow. I don't care what it is... add it to the larger ship packs. Throw a 5 point pack in with every ship bundle. Or add a 1-3 points in when you open a Promo pack.
Or, you know, it's fine the way it is with most people who have chimed in being quite happy how it is now. Just because you and a few of your friends are malcontent doesn't mean the playerbase is. And going by the extremely negative responses you have been getting...I think we can pretty clearly say where most of the playerbase stands on the matter. We don't need a P2W option for this. It really doesn't matter outside of already abandoned content...or because you all feel the need to measure e-peens...neither of which is a valid reason for them to add in a P2W option and you know quite possibly TRIBBLE off the playerbase. i know it would TRIBBLE ME off at the very least...so yeah F no to P2W.
Game has a pay to skip the grind for all but reputation at this point. Cryptic is way ahead of us with ways to extract $ from the whales, and folks with more money then time anyway.
I think I made clear I'm not a malcontent. I been around for almost every event everything... I haven't had to buy anyt old event stuffs from Mudd. I have a stash of 8 or 9 phoenix golds, but as I'm only really missing I think 2? (might be 3) ships I haven't had much use for them.
I am simply backing up the OP, who has raised a very valid criticism of the endeavor system. I understand the system is akin to systems that exist in most long running MMOs. I understand its a popular MMO developer mechanism to increase daily log ins. I even agree that most of the bonuses it provides are minor. (7.5% crth isn't minor at all but most of the cat 1 dmg bonuses and small bumps in other stats are) I simply understand where Cryptics bread is buttered... and frankly if your pushing 200 in the endeavor system right now, your not likely a butter churner. Cryptic adding a few of those points into "p2w" boxes wouldn't effect me and you who have been playing daily earning our points... so we would get enough to max out some ground and space stuff instead of what most people are doing right now prioritizing their space bits. I have no doubt however it would help Cryptic continue to extract the whale money that keeps most of us playing for free/low cost.
And you know the financial situation at Cryptic...please do share how you know this. You work there in their financial department? You are their COO or CEO maybe? Perhaps they know better than YOU who pays for what and know what to monetize and how. If they feel they need to tap your handful of malcontents for extra money so badly...they will do it. The fact that they have a pay option for so many other things but not the rep system or the endeavor system should show you that MAYBE YOU ARE WRONG and they don't need money nearly as much as people to log in and play daily. They already get enough out of the gamble whales...or maybe those whales are gone and they getting money from bundle whales now. Or they are focusing on daily users who spend small amounts here and there. Who know...but they have kept this game going for 10 years now...they don't need your input or mine on how they should run their business. All you can do is give feedback on what YOU will do. For instance, since they abandoned the Romulan faction...I will no longer be spending money on this game. Period. That doesn't mean what they did was BAD from a business stand point...just from a keeping me as a paying customer standpoint. But fun fact...I am not the STO playerbase...and neither are you...or the OP...or your handful of malcontents.
There are many facets to their customer base no doubt. How do I know they value returning players... pretty simply. Mudds market. Sure at some point perhaps it will become away to sell nothing but old lockbox ships for 3-4x the price of a zen store ship. However Mudds is still Crytpics current solution for returning players... clearly they expect those players to be flush with cash they are willing to drop. Or we wouldn't have old FREE event ships listed for 17,000 zen. Clearly Cryptic sees that segment of their market as a lucrative one... where the customers are willing to spend a lot of money to grab things they missed.
In any event guess its time to let this one go. Most of the player base doesn't like the idea of buying endeavor points in anyway... or making it a system that can be ground. Fair enough I wouldn't of expected the majority of us to like it... just like the majority of us laugh at the idea of spending 17,000 zen on a ship we got for free last fall... or 8,000 zen on a event console we got for free last winter.
If Cryptic pays any attention to the forums they have seen the suggestion, and they will either act or they won't After a decade I don't think anyone posts here really expecting them to do anything suggested here.
And if anyone really is willing to drop 17k zen on a formerly free or lockbox ship, that's on them. They choose to do that rather than waiting for the sales to come out where the price is cut drastically on those same ships and other things in there.
If you think Cryptic REALLY thinks people will drop that much zen on formerly free stuff, then I don't know...cause I don't think that they think people are going to do that.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Comments
I am fleeted with the OP and I will just say their endeavor level is high. They own all the things as it where. In our fleet there are a handful of us that have played fairly regular and even when we took breaks we kept an eye open for events and the like worth logging back in for.
In our fleet we have had a handful of old friends return the last month or so, as many people find themselves with more time on their hands. When you have stuck around or at the very least kept a toe in all these years, its easy to not notice how much has really changed. When you sit down with old friends and understand the shear volume of things to explain, yes its discouraging. Build defining traits locked behind Zen, lockbox, lobi, or promo ships... or worse traits/consoles from event ships that returning players are now allowed to purchase for Fengi prices. Now in our case out fleet of middle aged men in general have disposable income and catching up by spending some money isn't out of the question. We have a few members that pop back in every year drop a few hundred dollars and leave again.
The Endeavor system is just a new one on top... imo its just more TRIBBLE dropped on top. The issue I see for cryptic... is for a long time a handful of whales have kept this game afloat. People willing to pop in every 12 months buy $200 worth of keys so they can buy a handful of lockbox/promo ships... grind out the latest rep or whatever else is the latest "content". At some point... Cryptic will have gone to far (think we may be there) they are now at a point where they seem to be purposely adding things to Events that are so good, people that miss the events will be talked into spending $80+ dollars to pick them up from Harcourt.
I see how casual type players don't mind endeavor it gives them something for nothing... and rewards their showing up every day. The thing is... and I admit Cryptic knows the truth better then I. Its the returners, and the come and go players that pay the bills. Those of us playing every day are the ones farming Dil on 20+ toons... buying Zen from those come and go players grabbing a year supply of Dil to catch up their gear upgrades, and gamble away on Phoenix boxes. I don't know if I really know what the solution is... and perhaps I'm wrong and the every day players spending 20 bucks here and there is enough to keep the lights on, perhaps Cryptic doesn't need the people that pop in yearly and spend catching up. I would suggest that the existence of Mudds market tells us Cryptic knows that returning players are lucrative. The danger for this game I think is saying... welcome back, here spend $400 to catch up, well accept for this one system this system you will forever be behind in. I think if you tell most players like the ones I describe that no amount of money will catch you up completely, they are much more likely to say all well hey I'm playing X or Y right now why not come and join for awhile.
That is somewhat muddying the water with an entirely separate issue. I personally have never been a fan of the 'exclusive' item idea. I don't like granting event rewards that either can never be later attained or attained at an exorbitant price. What I hate even more is taking a limited event item and making it part of a set that otherwise costs money like making the Timeline Stabilizer part of the Flagship set.
While you won't get much argument from me on this topic, the topic here is the Endeavor system and that to me is a good system that's completely fair. It rewards players for playing but it doesn't grant anything that is required to play and enjoy the game. Cryptic needs daily logins, it's just part of how things work. This is standard with MMO's which is why every MMO you see offers some bonus for Daily Logins. I personally think Cryptic has done a good job here, the trick is making it worth the players time but at the same time not cutting off new or returning players from content. The Endeavor system has done a good job of that in my opinion. I would favor the idea of revising the 'exclusive items' policy, but Endeavors I fully support.
No, I'm not one of the 'mad' DPSers. I barely do enough to have broken into the Bronze level, lol.
Just play the game, do the Endeavors if they mesh with what you're already doing and then do the other(s) if you feel like it.
Edit: I'm running one of my alts today and they did Sunrise for the first time and completed the first and third Endeavors on the first playthrough (Physical Damage(ground), Destroy Tholian Ships (30))
Since the web nodes count in the Thollian ship count, I was able to get that easily. The physical damage ground was easily done with the Tommy Gun. The middle one is to destroy Tzenkethi ships, so when I'm done replaying Sunrise for the mission stuff I'll run up to the BZ. It's only ten ships.
I don't even do global ones unless they're stupid easy. Such as Win 500GPL playing Dabo at Quarks, do the dance contest on Nimbus, mine dil at Vlugta. Or if it's a TFO I don't mind queuing for.
Sea of Sorrows and echatty - Thank You both for expressing your positive opinions on this topic in ways which are cogent, reasoned and logical.
Why would anyone do that? I'd think the people willing to drop fat stacks would be the ones playing constantly. Not the random dudes popping in every year or so.
Whereas I would see the 'casual' player as the one just poking at Endeavors when they happen to see ones that fit their playstyle or interest, while the ones pushing Endeavors every day and maxing out the bonuses would be the dedicated/'hardcore' players.
As of today, this is what I'm looking at until I'm down to less than three ground categories. I filled in every point in space with my 296th point.
This is misleading at best. They changed the reputation abilities to traits, and put a cap of four, later expanded with a potential purchase of a fifth one, on them due to the old system not being "infinitely scalable." You could argue that Endeavor perks will take longer to catch up on than reputation abilities would have taken if they had never changed them, but the Endeavor system, as it has stood since it was introduced, isn't infinite the way that reputations theoretically are, and especially as they were when that change was made, where there was an average of two new ones per year being added. It's also misleading to talk about the total of reputations that we have now in light of how the system used to work, being that they changed it before introducing the fifth one. That's like counting all of the coins that you could have collected from the San Francisco mint if they had never closed it down as coins that were made and taken from you.
I agree on the issue of set items being exclusive. That is idiocy and has done nothing but frustrate me after my few years break from the game. I also agree that the endeavor system isn't required, but then nothing in the game is required. The thing is, STO doesn't even seem to send out emails to people for their events. Other games do that, letting you know some event is on, and it has this and that thing to try and entice you to return. I think I only got one email on my own break from the game offering a ship if I returned. That's getting into another issue entirely though.
Daily garbage, though, I couldn't agree less on. That is the bane of MMOs and something I absolutely hate about them. As the OP and the other person you're quoting attest to, some people have busy lives. These systems built for player retention work okay for your players with more time on their hands, aside from speeding along burnout for some people. They don't work at all for people with actual lives that can't play every day or even just don't want to play every day.
It would be really easy to design these systems with a catch up mechanic too, such as building up a weeks worth of backlog that someone could run through on a weekend. And certainly in STO's case, returning players could now also get handed a bunch of endeavor perk points if they've been gone a while, not just as a welcome back reward thing, but also to point them to the system they may not even know anything about. Instead, these games want and expect people to play every day and it does absolutely put off people who can't do that regularly.
In any case, endeavors aren't as bad as other systems, and I said it before but no one seemed to notice, while fully maxing out endeavors takes years (and no one has yet!), chance are you don't care much about resistance perks. No, its damage, and crit perks that are most valuable to people, and the system as designed does let you focus on perks you want and not so much the ones you don't. You can max out crit and damage perks in a few months in all likelihood, or resistance if you cared about those. It isn't as bad as it looks from the perspective of someone who feels left behind. That's important to consider for people who are put off by the system, because if they can spend some time working at them here and there, they can catch up in some areas relatively quickly.
I personally know a handful of players that play exactly as I describe. I also know a lot more people like me that play almost daily... and when we take breaks we still pop by to complete events so as to not have to buy things at ferengi prices later.
There is zero doubt... the people I know that play daily spend next to nothing. I admit I don't spend a fortune... I subbed every month till the game went f2p and since I have spent a few bucks here and there but nothing crazy. 20 bucks a few times a year. In the fleet I'm in there are 4 or 5 people that do exactly as I describe... they leave for a year at a time, and when someone tells them something interesting has happened in game. They pop in and drop a bill grabbing Dil, and if they need ec they will spend some more and sell some keys or promo packs. I am not a jerk, I don't ask them how much they spend its their business. I have no doubt however that that handful of people in our fleet spend far more then the rest of us.
You know its a major market by looking at how Cryptic has treated the purchase opportunities for previous event items. Unless you believe they honestly expect a lot of us daily players (who got all that stuff for free) to pay 80 bucks (on sale) for a ship they gave away for free a year ago.
Anyway I know I'm out in the weeds... this thread was about the endeavor system. I only brought up the lucrative in and out crowd to point out that the system is unique in that its the one system that market of players (which Cryptic clearly values highly) would be the one group most turned off by a system they can't catch up on with $.
It's strange that someone would think having "all system buyable for dollars except this one" would be a significant problem, but not notice that maybe there's a much larger audience "most turned off by" a game that looks rather Pay-To-Win in some key areas (traits, consoles, gear) and that doesn't equally reward consistent gameplay.
Personally I'd think that having a number of systems being dollar-based, and some systems being participation-based, is exactly where a successful game would want to be. You're always going to get some people put off by the P2W parts, and some put off by the 'play every day' parts, but a decent balance there will get the most players playing and paying and happy with it.
You're welcome. I try to help where I can.
However, I could see a change being made by removing it from your character while in PVP zones/instances. Although PVP is dead, I can see that this would discourage anybody from ever trying PVP.
As I have proposed already years ago, PVP in thins game should be with premade ships from a certain set of available setups. Meaning you get a battle ready ship that you captain in that instance, similar to certain missions that let you fly a special ship.
Bam, equality in an instant...no scripts, no p2w, just your skill and dedication to learn the ship you are given. Monetisation possible in the form of certain ships for PVP when you purchase a ship specifically for PVP events.
However, I'm sure over time they will make some endeavor boost for the money.
Anyway true powercreep is in expensive starship traits and consoles.
That has always been Cryptics greatest strength. How they avoid any serious P2W finger pointing. Everything in STO can be had with sweat equity. There isn't anything in this game you can't get for free... by grinding it, or grinding the games dilithium resource to trade for zen with the come and go folks. (that is where all the zen for the "f2p" dil farmers comes from) someone buys it with $ so they don't have to spend time farming dilithum.
IMO the endeavor system doesn't need to be nerfed or removed or anything of the sort. I still believe it was a mistake to a system that will sit on players HUDs reminding Cryptics whales that they are not getting the full meal deal for their large spends. My suggestion would be to simply add options to buy Endeavor points somehow. I don't care what it is... add it to the larger ship packs. Throw a 5 point pack in with every ship bundle. Or add a 1-3 points in when you open a Promo pack.
Then again, that could be because they often don't work.
I have so many re-roll tokens from just the prize boxes that I won't need to buy any.
They also work fine for me. It's been ages since I got bit by the re-roll bug. Usually with Lukari TFO endeavors. I got one of those to re-roll the other day.
Game has a pay to skip the grind for all but reputation at this point. Cryptic is way ahead of us with ways to extract $ from the whales, and folks with more money then time anyway.
I think I made clear I'm not a malcontent. I been around for almost every event everything... I haven't had to buy anyt old event stuffs from Mudd. I have a stash of 8 or 9 phoenix golds, but as I'm only really missing I think 2? (might be 3) ships I haven't had much use for them.
I am simply backing up the OP, who has raised a very valid criticism of the endeavor system. I understand the system is akin to systems that exist in most long running MMOs. I understand its a popular MMO developer mechanism to increase daily log ins. I even agree that most of the bonuses it provides are minor. (7.5% crth isn't minor at all but most of the cat 1 dmg bonuses and small bumps in other stats are) I simply understand where Cryptics bread is buttered... and frankly if your pushing 200 in the endeavor system right now, your not likely a butter churner. Cryptic adding a few of those points into "p2w" boxes wouldn't effect me and you who have been playing daily earning our points... so we would get enough to max out some ground and space stuff instead of what most people are doing right now prioritizing their space bits. I have no doubt however it would help Cryptic continue to extract the whale money that keeps most of us playing for free/low cost.
We let people jump into our Max level Fleets (Fed and KDF) all the time to grab pets consoles deflectors colony doffs ect ect. So no he would not care. We leveled our fleet and we don't really care if new players get the same access. We run a feeder fleet that has provisions for everything unlocked and toss those new friends invites to the main base all the time.
No Rck has created the thread and I have posted here... cause yes like most people we have seen some very old friends pop back into the game lately. Just last night another of my very old launch friends popped in, hasn't been in game in over 3 years till last night. So as I have no doubt most 10 year long players have been dealing with the last 2 months we get tons of questions about the new (to them) systems. It makes you realize how many things we take for granted when things change a few things at a time over years. We as a fleet have been lucky we are not a large group... we are a very small fleet in fact. We have been lucky to have a handful of players that dedicated to the game, and a few that also have deep pockets. Our fleet was completed with the help of cold hard cash and I don't care who knows it. We don't begrudge anyone what they have in game.. including endeavor stuff. Rck first suggestion was to allow people to grind tying it to the XP bar. That is one solution... I would say its easier to convince Cryptic to add a $ for points scheme. Either way works imo... it gives returning players away to catch up. As you can P2W xp points with lockbox doff missions.
Yes we are selfish... it would be nice when our old friends pop in for a few weeks every year or two they decide to stick around for a few months or more. I doubt we are the only long time players in the same boat.
I wouldn't call it a "valid criticism." That type of statement artificially adds weight to what is merely a minor complaint made by a tiny minority. The first of which I've heard of. If endeavors honestly make you want to quit the game, then you're playing the wrong type of game.
And if Cryptic were to add a monetization system for bypassing endeavors, you can be 100% sure that there'd be exponentially more threads complaining about that being "predatory" or a "cash grab."
Most of the replies in this thread disagree with the validity of the OP's complaint. We stated our reasons why we disagree and the OP threw a hissy fit and stopped responding.
The issue is pretty much dead.
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> If endeavors honestly make you want to quit the game, then you're playing the wrong type of game.
This^^
There are many facets to their customer base no doubt. How do I know they value returning players... pretty simply. Mudds market. Sure at some point perhaps it will become away to sell nothing but old lockbox ships for 3-4x the price of a zen store ship. However Mudds is still Crytpics current solution for returning players... clearly they expect those players to be flush with cash they are willing to drop. Or we wouldn't have old FREE event ships listed for 17,000 zen. Clearly Cryptic sees that segment of their market as a lucrative one... where the customers are willing to spend a lot of money to grab things they missed.
In any event guess its time to let this one go. Most of the player base doesn't like the idea of buying endeavor points in anyway... or making it a system that can be ground. Fair enough I wouldn't of expected the majority of us to like it... just like the majority of us laugh at the idea of spending 17,000 zen on a ship we got for free last fall... or 8,000 zen on a event console we got for free last winter.
If Cryptic pays any attention to the forums they have seen the suggestion, and they will either act or they won't After a decade I don't think anyone posts here really expecting them to do anything suggested here.
If you think Cryptic REALLY thinks people will drop that much zen on formerly free stuff, then I don't know...cause I don't think that they think people are going to do that.
I mean, seriously, who would come back and drop... what, $170?... on a *single* game item?
But also getting off the topic the OP started which was endeavors as they relate to PvP.