The Endeavor System is Discouraging Returning Players - Please Nerf

24

Comments

  • echatty
    echatty Member Posts: 5,718 Arc User
    Endeavors are fine as they are. I don't do them every day, but I do them most days. Sometimes I'll even do them for family.

    Are they necessary? No. Are they fun? Most of the time. The not-fun ones get re-rolled or skipped.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • kiralyn
    kiralyn Member Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    Was going to give at least a semi-serious response, but...
    rck01 wrote: »
    I now see why Attack Pattern BETA is so popular in this game. Just...sad. B)

    RCK01 - a.k.a. "Evul Jacob/Cuddly Jacob" - Hax Pandas/Sad Pandas PvP

    Never mind. You're one of those. /eyeroll
  • spiritborn
    spiritborn Member Posts: 3,574 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    Zp7Q7Qm.jpg if this is perfectly fine for all official PvE content I don't see why the endeavor system needs to be nerfed. I don't think I have single slot that has more then 3 points to it and most have 2 or less inlcuding several slots that have 0 points in them and as I said before I can do pretty much all PvE content avaible in the game (I don't like doing PvP in PvE games so I do not nor are my characters built for it), there might one or 2 TFOs (Korfez(sic) I think) I can't do due to too low DPS but honestly those are the exceptions and not the rule.

    EDIT:I reached rank 40 yesterday (or today depending on your timezone).
  • anodynes
    anodynes Member Posts: 1,982 Arc User
    Nothing wrong with having an opinion on what's going on ^

    For me though, any player who was in a position having felt they had mastered the game and leaves for a number of years then comes back, really shouldn't expect to be caught up anytime soon.

    Now, if you had left for two years and had the game mastered then, well you are going to be just fine going forward certainly not being stuck with nothing. You'll have a huge jump on your build/equipment/ etc.

    Any player gone for 3+ years will still have an advantage if they were truly all maxed out and mastered, they'll have a grind to get everything caught up, but they certainly won't be in a position of starting from square one either.

    This is pretty much it. Just because you left for however many years, the game did not stop and wait for you to come back. That's the way of MMOs, if you go away for a while, you have to expect that there will be some catching up to do. Endeavor perk points aren't infinite. You will catch up to even the most diligent player who has been doing them every day in less than 18 months, and you'll finish the whole system in just over two years if you are inclined to do so, just like the people who have been doing them the whole time. If it matters to you, you'll do it, and if it doesn't, you very much can ignore it.
    This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
  • westmetals
    westmetals Member Posts: 8,220 Arc User
    rck01 wrote: »
    I now see why Attack Pattern BETA is so popular in this game. Just...sad.

    Nah, I would guess that is because of the Benthan DOFF from the Delta Ops pack.
  • vetteguy904
    vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,371 Arc User
    rck01 wrote: »
    OK, well let me put this in terms that the "DPS League" might understand:

    1. Without Endeavor progression: Normal Damage/CrtH/CrtD
    2. With Endeavor progression: up to 30% higher Damage/7.5% Higher CrtH/30% higher CrtD

    I'm not going to bring up issues like Hull Cap or Healing since they mean nothing to your crowd. But no matter how you slice it, for truly competitive players the above disparity (and similar Endeavor perks) represents an impassible chasm that discourages them from ever taking up the game in the first place.

    Give us an option to bypass the time-gating - even it's just a P2W Zen store buyout.

    RCK01 - a.k.a. "Evul Jacob/Cuddly Jacob" - Hax Pandas/Sad Pandas PvP

    yeah.. no. the whole entitlement mentality really irks me sometimes.
    Spock.jpg

  • echatty
    echatty Member Posts: 5,718 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    The endeavor works fine and is one of the few good things they have done in a LONG while. It does not discourage new or returning players unless they are toxic, entitled players who thinks they should have everything NOW because they are special and how dare players who were here for years and years day in and day out have stuff I don't.

    This, so much this. I take breaks from the game, but I don't come back and lament not having what others who played while I was gone got. I just play from where I am. I don't even know what my level is in the Endeavor System, most likely pretty high as I do them anytime I'm on the game.
    Now a LTS and loving it.

    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.

    xp8s7wd.jpg
  • spiritborn
    spiritborn Member Posts: 3,574 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    The endeavor works fine and is one of the few good things they have done in a LONG while. It does not discourage new or returning players unless they are toxic, entitled players who thinks they should have everything NOW because they are special and how dare players who were here for years and years day in and day out have stuff I don't.

    This, so much this. I take breaks from the game, but I don't come back and lament not having what others who played while I was gone got. I just play from where I am. I don't even know what my level is in the Endeavor System, most likely pretty high as I do them anytime I'm on the game.

    Only way I knew my endeavor rank was that UI element I took the screenshot from, due IRL I've been way too busy to really play for any extended periods (and "work from home" has actually given me less time not more, due to having to work with equipment I got home which are not optimal for what I need them to do) and few times I'd actually do have the time I don't have the energy.
  • protoneous
    protoneous Member Posts: 2,458 Arc User
    rck01 wrote: »
    ...

    1. Without Endeavor progression: Normal Damage/CrtH/CrtD
    2. With Endeavor progression: up to 30% higher Damage/7.5% Higher CrtH/30% higher CrtD

    I'm not going to bring up issues like Hull Cap or Healing since they mean nothing to your crowd.

    ...

    I understand what you're saying. The Endeavor System make things even more imbalanced for members of your community that might be re-visiting STO or even just starting out.

    That is a huge difference for the competitive players in your community and there's no way around it except for doing the endeavors for two years or however long it takes to max things out or catch up to a reasonable degree, whereas getting something like your reputations from Tier 5 to 6 only takes about 30 days.

    It's a shame stuff like this can't be just turned off internally by the game engine while on a PvP map.

    It's a shame that dev time most likely won't be spent on anything related to you and your community.

    I say this with full respect to you and your community.

    I'd personally like STO to appeal to as many different communities as possible, just like it used to.
  • thunderfoot#5163
    thunderfoot#5163 Member Posts: 4,352 Arc User
    What is all this? The Endeavour System has rewards? And these rewards are beneficial?

    And all this time I was thinking it is just a way to point me at underused game content when I log in and don't know what I want to do.

    Imagine that.

    Learned some things from the OP as well.
    - The game developers are continually developing the game and adding new stuff to it.
    - If I stop playing STO, other people may not. So if I come back to play STO, those people will probably have stuff I do not.

    It isn't broken. So it doesn't need fixing. And it especially doesn't need a P2W fix.

    Nope. It ain't Discovery. Ain't Picard, either. It's you.
  • gaevsman
    gaevsman Member Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    What is all this? The Endeavour System has rewards? And these rewards are beneficial?

    And all this time I was thinking it is just a way to point me at underused game content when I log in and don't know what I want to do.

    Imagine that.

    Learned some things from the OP as well.
    - The game developers are continually developing the game and adding new stuff to it.
    - If I stop playing STO, other people may not. So if I come back to play STO, those people will probably have stuff I do not.

    It isn't broken. So it doesn't need fixing. And it especially doesn't need a P2W fix.

    :lol: And life goes on...
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • varethael
    varethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    rck01 wrote: »
    Dear Devs,

    In fact, I believe the time-gated nature of the Endeavor system - where you must play for YEARS with no way to accelerate the process regardless of how hard you grind - has become the single biggest obstacle to new or returning player participation in STO. The discovery that there exists a massive, unassailable skill divide between yourself and others who have played the game longer or more consistently is killing interest in the game and keeping veteran players from coming back to the STO community.


    RCK01 - a.k.a. "Evul Jacob/Cuddly Jacob" - Hax Pandas/Sad Pandas PvP

    Yep i totally agree. After 1,5 year absence i returned to game only to hit this wall.

    But this is not why i write this reply. Most people have a short memory, because no one pointed out, that balance between veterans, grinders, new, and returning players, was the main reason why Cryptic rev-maped reputation system years ago (they limited trait slots to 5 pick from 13 reps, from 5 pick per rep), to not boost veteran (long playing) players to much, and give new one a fair chances, only to commit endeavor system. So in the end they done exactly opposite to they statements from reputation rev-map time that they care about fair chances. Sigh.
  • varethael
    varethael Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    99% of gamers give no damns about either of those things. No one is getting discouraged by something most MMOs have some form of.

    Oh, so you are a physic, or telephath, because you know what 99% of player-base think and want, dear God, we have a rare species of live Vulcan or Undine, call the press, we have a first contact here!

    Seriously, no one wanna to comment here and state his/her opinion, because no one will listen, and most of DPS league will silence him/her on the spot, dismiss (as you trying to do so), disrupt the issue, or simply insult said person. That is the sad truth, about this issue, so don't be so sure that no one will be discouraged, "Only sith (read as tyrant) deals in absolutes";).
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,888 Arc User
    varethael wrote: »
    99% of gamers give no damns about either of those things. No one is getting discouraged by something most MMOs have some form of.

    Oh, so you are a physic, or telephath, because you know what 99% of player-base think and want, dear God, we have a rare species of live Vulcan or Undine, call the press, we have a first contact here!

    Seriously, no one wanna to comment here and state his/her opinion, because no one will listen, and most of DPS league will silence him/her on the spot, dismiss (as you trying to do so), disrupt the issue, or simply insult said person. That is the sad truth, about this issue, so don't be so sure that no one will be discouraged, "Only sith (read as tyrant) deals in absolutes";).

    What are you talking about? No one has shouted anyone down.

    The OP stated his opinion, others stated theirs and he got offended because people didn't agree with him. Now, all the sudden here you are attacking on his behalf. Why the hostility? Why the sarcasm? Are we not allowed to disagree? I think we have all stated why we feel the way that we do.

    The OP wanted the Admiralty system nerfed, and others have stated why they oppose that idea. Since when is stating an opposing an opinion an attack? Just because I disagree and happen to have a DPS League banner in my Signature, now the DPS League is 'silencing people?' This is a discussion and people are discussing the issue, nothing more. In the end, it's all moot anyway, Cryptic is not going to change this.

    And for the record the statement "Only a Sith deals in Absolutes" is in itself.. an absolute. Just another example of the lousy excuse for writing that is the prequels. I love Star Wars, but those movies were awful. :lol:
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • ltminns
    ltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    Endeavors not Admiralty.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • tribbulater
    tribbulater Member Posts: 253 Arc User
    OP, I hear where you're coming from on this, but it seems to me that your take on it is flawed.

    The first issue is equating a limited concern, "people who care about DPS meters" with "the single biggest obstacle to new or returning player participation in STO". What's important to you here simply isn't important to roughly 90% of the player base of MMORPGs. It's hard to see how something that only a small percentage of players even care about can be the biggest obstacle in their play choice.

    The second issue is you want to be able to leave a game, then return much later and have a way to bypass the grind that other players have been putting in daily, so you can jump to the top of your DPS Meter list again. This smacks of entitlement, and of "I don't like it when other people earned more than I have". These are not good positions to be arguing for changes from.

    Third is that what you're asking for (ways to bypass the timegate) is strategically flawed. Any method you propose for 'catching up' on Endeavor points will be used by those who care about the things you do (DPS meter bragging rights) to pile up their own points. Since they play more than you (and likely pay more), there will be more of them, even farther ahead of you, until such time as you purchase every last endeavor point there is.

    Fourth is that as others have mentioned, the Endeavor point system is already one of the best-designed and balanced changes Cryptic has made to the game in years. It encourages daily participation, it creates a demand for varied content and game activities, and it gives everyone something useful to strive for without unbalancing the game economy. It's an excellent example of what Cryptic is capable of when they put their minds to it.

    The only resolution that would actually address your key concern - wanting to be able to return to the game and not 'look bad' when competing with other DPS meter watchers - and doesn't lead to even more problems, would be for Cryptic to start selling an 'Endeavour booster' consumable. This EP booster would, for a limited time, give you maximum rank in all your Endeavour points. Or, to be a little more nuanced, one for space and one for ground.

    This would still reward the daily grind for those who do it (permanent Endeavor boosts). It would give even the rawest recruit an instant performance boost for difficult content. It would give DPS watchers a way to remain competitive against anyone. It gives Cryptic a Dil/Zen/EC sink (whichever one they want to sink most). And since it's a consumable, it doesn't affect the attraction of the Endeavor point grind for regular players.
  • captainkenny1
    captainkenny1 Member Posts: 323 Arc User
    As a returning player, i love the endeavours, i come and do things i otherwise hardly visit or do.
    and by doing that i even get nice rewards, so no please no nerf and tbh it is totally not discouraging!!!
  • kiralyn
    kiralyn Member Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    varethael wrote: »
    rck01 wrote: »
    Dear Devs,

    In fact, I believe the time-gated nature of the Endeavor system - where you must play for YEARS with no way to accelerate the process regardless of how hard you grind - has become the single biggest obstacle to new or returning player participation in STO. The discovery that there exists a massive, unassailable skill divide between yourself and others who have played the game longer or more consistently is killing interest in the game and keeping veteran players from coming back to the STO community.


    RCK01 - a.k.a. "Evul Jacob/Cuddly Jacob" - Hax Pandas/Sad Pandas PvP

    Yep i totally agree. After 1,5 year absence i returned to game only to hit this wall.

    I'm curious - what "wall" did you hit? What are you prevented from doing, what groups are you being kicked from, because you don't have maxed out Endeavor bonuses?

    (And how is it any different from the fact that a long-time player will have all sorts of event consoles / rare gear / promo ship traits / etc, that would be either impossible for you to get, or would cost billions of EC.)
  • furyofthefuga
    furyofthefuga Member Posts: 157 Arc User
    I’m a returning player from about 7 years ago and haven’t found the Endeavor system to be a “wall”. The bonuses it gives are small enough compared to everything else that it doesn’t feel significant enough.

    The only thing I’ve found truly “discouraging” to me on my return has been the apparent power creep that’s been happening over the years.
  • rattler2
    rattler2 Member Posts: 55,513 Community Moderator
    The only thing I’ve found truly “discouraging” to me on my return has been the apparent power creep that’s been happening over the years.

    To be fair... power creep over time was bound to happen no matter what. Only way for it not to would be if STO was in maintenence mode and not getting further development, of if the game shut down entirely.

    While it might be a bit difficult to try and catch up, you also have the knowledge accumulated by those who stuck around, and may be able to specifically target things that fit your playstyle rather than shotgun get everything. Like... you got a phaser build. If anything was added for phaser builds, we could tell you about them, and you can work on getting those specifically.

    So its a bit of a double edged sword really. Some give and take.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • salazarraze
    salazarraze Member Posts: 3,789 Arc User
    Endeavors are fine as they are. OP is either "mad about it" or a troll. Or both technically. Either way, no need to engage. /thread
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • ltminns
    ltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    The only problem with the Endeavor System is the infrequent bug where you can't reroll one of the Endeavors that day.

    I try to do this every day synergizing the ones that I can. I'm at 272 and am three short of maxing out Space. After I got there early in the week only Ground Endeavors have been showing up to select. Before that, Space would regularly have at least one entry a day. Not that it's a problem, as I like doing Ground stuff.

    Tinfoily, those three Space Perks will probably never come up until the end of this rodeo, to keep Space completionists from stopping. :)

    Here's another idea since they like to keep us doing Events/events, a Bonus Endeavor XP Weekend.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • protoneous
    protoneous Member Posts: 2,458 Arc User
    Endeavors are fine as they are. OP is either "mad about it" or a troll. Or both technically. Either way, no need to engage. /thread

    OP seems to be neither.

    A two year power gap between new or returning and existing players that will make a not insignificant difference to a subset of the player base has been created.

    One fix might be to turn the endeavor bonuses off on a handful of maps.

    Perhaps one way to find development time to accomplish this would be to abandon the tailor and new outfits for a while as cosmetics over core systems makes little sense. /jk /s /wink

    Personally I enjoy the endeavor system.

    Contrarian viewpoints as well :smile:
  • furyofthefuga
    furyofthefuga Member Posts: 157 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The only thing I’ve found truly “discouraging” to me on my return has been the apparent power creep that’s been happening over the years.

    To be fair... power creep over time was bound to happen no matter what. Only way for it not to would be if STO was in maintenence mode and not getting further development, of if the game shut down entirely.

    While it might be a bit difficult to try and catch up, you also have the knowledge accumulated by those who stuck around, and may be able to specifically target things that fit your playstyle rather than shotgun get everything. Like... you got a phaser build. If anything was added for phaser builds, we could tell you about them, and you can work on getting those specifically.

    So its a bit of a double edged sword really. Some give and take.

    I think what I mean more is that it seems easier now to have a single ship with the capabilities of mopping the floor with everything vs back then. Being able to one shot or kill most things in just a few seconds seems... wrong. :/
  • ussvaliant#6064
    ussvaliant#6064 Member Posts: 1,006 Arc User
    I had a good build before Endeavours and still have whilst levelling up the Endeavours. Earn them or don't earn them it's a choice and the bonus they give don't make a significant different to your performance they are not like Reputations/Specializations and Starship Mastery which do.
    maR4zDV.jpg

    Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
  • diocletian#7546
    diocletian#7546 Member Posts: 131 Arc User
    Being a casual player, I see no problem with endeavor system as it is. I only do endeavors if they go along with what I am already doing. I rarely go out of my way to do them. I have never used a re-roll token. Rarely do I get all of them done. Many days I do none at all or just one because it overlaps something I did that day.
  • discojer
    discojer Member Posts: 533 Arc User
    While they obviously make a difference, at the same time, remember that the perks are capped. Yeah, someone who has played the game for the last year or two since they come out might have +30% more energy damage than you, but that's all they will ever have. You will close the gap as you play.

    It's not like others have an insurmountable lead. I imagine most people will spend the perks on the good stuff first, then fill out the TRIBBLE ones. It's random, but the first one I maxed out was the space energy damage one (like at maybe level 70?), so you do have some control over it over the long term.
  • sheldonlcooper
    sheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    there is a bit of luck to it. I had all the space ones I cared about filled quite early. My interest is waning. for the first time since they began I skipped 2 days this week. I only do the top 2 most points ones.

    I would say you could close the gap reasonably in 6 months.

    Another way of looking at it is a good tac captain would double - nay treble my dps in tac without any endeavors. Because I stink at tac.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."