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Should Star Wars Have Two official Timelines like what Star Trek dose that is Cannon?

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    There is not much difference between the technology in The Old Republic and the Star Wars movies. So that is at least 3000 years of stagnant growth according to non-canon.

    Therefore can be ignored as the fanfiction it is.

    Until Disney create some Old Republic content we know nothing of that period beyond Darth Bane's appearance in TCW.

    Just as canonical as Star Trek Online is. So it is licensed fanfiction just like Star Trek Online which is a step above fanfiction.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    It's not the same Thrawn.

    Its still Thrawn. He still was incredably smart. He still studied art to learn about his opponents... the main difference is when he is introduced. A lot earlier than he was originally.

    Looking at Legends... earliest we technically see him I believe is around Empire Strikes Back as seen in the game TIE Fighter. There may have been some novels that brought him in as early as the Clone Wars in some form or another. However he was best known for his portrayal in the post Endor New Republic time period as seen in what is commonly referred to as the Thrawn Trilogy. Just because he is not the exact same as he was in the books doesn't make him any less Thrawn. Fans would have raged if he was shown to be just another mook Imperial Admiral. They didn't. They adapted the character from Legends, maintaining many of the elements that made him a fan favorite. For all intents and purposes... he is Thrawn. Just introduced earlier in the timeline, and he's still out there.

    It doesn't matter what they've changed, that fact they have means it's a different Thrawn. I'm not making a judgment on the quality of his introduction or whatever, only that he's not the same Thrawn.
    starkaos wrote: »
    Just as canonical as Star Trek Online is. So it is licensed fanfiction just like Star Trek Online which is a step above fanfiction.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Non-canon fanfiction.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    Just as canonical as Star Trek Online is. So it is licensed fanfiction just like Star Trek Online which is a step above fanfiction.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Non-canon fanfiction.

    There is a slight difference. Fanfiction would be if you or I wrote a story in the Star Trek universe and don't get a dime. Licensed fanfiction is how Cryptic and Bioware is able to earn millions by obtaining a license from CBS and Disney. So Cryptic and Bioware have more credibility than you or I for the stories they make, but it pales in comparison to Picard or The Mandalorian. It is up to the IP owner if the previously licensed works exist in an alternate reality or belong on the trash heap like most fanfiction.

  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 5,829 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    artan42 wrote: »
    It doesn't need to be 'scientific', the Force is magic and magic can lead to time travel and alternate timelines, it just doesn't in SW.

    Actually, as I suggested earlier the Force HAS been used for time travel type stuff in the Disney Canon. In an episode of Rebels Ezra found his way into some kind of Force dimension thing called the world between worlds, which consists of an infinite number of portals to pretty much every point in space and time. He reached through one of these portals and pulled Ahsoka Tano forward in time just as she was about to be struck down by Vader in the time period of an earlier season.

    The world between worlds hasn't really been elaborated on since then as far as I know, so imo it could easily be used to link multiple different timelines or alternate realities together if Disney wanted to.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    It doesn't need to be 'scientific', the Force is magic and magic can lead to time travel and alternate timelines, it just doesn't in SW.

    Actually, as I suggested earlier the Force HAS been used for time travel type stuff in the Disney Canon. In an episode of Rebels Ezra found his way into some kind of Force dimension thing called the world between worlds, which consists of an infinite number of portals to pretty much every point in space and time. He reached through one of these portals and pulled Ahsoka Tano forward in time just as she was about to be struck down by Vader in the time period of an earlier season.

    The world between worlds hasn't really been elaborated on since then as far as I know, so imo it could easily be used to link multiple different timelines or alternate realities together if Disney wanted to.

    So it is almost the same as the Mycelial Network in Discovery.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 5,829 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    So it is almost the same as the Mycelial Network in Discovery.

    Not exactly

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    It doesn't need to be 'scientific', the Force is magic and magic can lead to time travel and alternate timelines, it just doesn't in SW.

    Actually, as I suggested earlier the Force HAS been used for time travel type stuff in the Disney Canon. In an episode of Rebels Ezra found his way into some kind of Force dimension thing called the world between worlds, which consists of an infinite number of portals to pretty much every point in space and time. He reached through one of these portals and pulled Ahsoka Tano forward in time just as she was about to be struck down by Vader in the time period of an earlier season.

    The world between worlds hasn't really been elaborated on since then as far as I know, so imo it could easily be used to link multiple different timelines or alternate realities together if Disney wanted to.

    That's what we were talking about on the last page. All it seems to do is allow for travel back to the location and time of whatever appears in the doorways. The concept of alternate timelines and universes is not a natural progression from the mere existence of time travel, they need to be developed from time travel.

    It's not beyond the realms of possibility as I said, it's just not within the scope of what we've already seen.

    Look at the X-Men films, who the hell would have guessed that Kitty's walking through walls ability apparently also has the ability to send peoples rains back in time to their older bodies? If an IP owner wants to add the ability to internally retcon their material with an in-universe explanation they'll find one, in Star Treks case they don't need to find one because alternate timelines have existed since TOS, in SWs case they'd have to invent one because there's no current mechanism for alternate timelines.
    starkaos wrote: »
    So it is almost the same as the Mycelial Network in Discovery.

    No. The MN exists through all of real space through subspace (or something similar), it cannot be used to time travel. The Disco time travelling from the MU was due to the extra dimensional travel itself (see the Defiant from TOS to ENT) not the network.

    The World Between Worlds is far more like the Guardian of Forever.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    artan42 wrote: »
    No. The MN exists through all of real space through subspace (or something similar), it cannot be used to time travel. The Disco time travelling from the MU was due to the extra dimensional travel itself (see the Defiant from TOS to ENT) not the network.

    The World Between Worlds is far more like the Guardian of Forever.

    But it doesn't account for the fact that Discovery didn't jump through time upon arrival to the Mirror Universe. Only on the trip back.
    It could be a simple miscalculation that caused the nine or so month jump. I mean the Stargate wasn't made for time travel either, but under the right conditions its possible.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    No. The MN exists through all of real space through subspace (or something similar), it cannot be used to time travel. The Disco time travelling from the MU was due to the extra dimensional travel itself (see the Defiant from TOS to ENT) not the network.

    The World Between Worlds is far more like the Guardian of Forever.

    But it doesn't account for the fact that Discovery didn't jump through time upon arrival to the Mirror Universe. Only on the trip back.
    It could be a simple miscalculation that caused the nine or so month jump. I mean the Stargate wasn't made for time travel either, but under the right conditions its possible.

    Well there's no explanation on what the Mirror Universe actually is, never mind how it works. There was no time dilation in TOS or DS9 as far as I'm aware only the Alliance suddenly forgetting they had cloaks previously.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,589 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    No. The MN exists through all of real space through subspace (or something similar), it cannot be used to time travel. The Disco time travelling from the MU was due to the extra dimensional travel itself (see the Defiant from TOS to ENT) not the network.

    The World Between Worlds is far more like the Guardian of Forever.

    But it doesn't account for the fact that Discovery didn't jump through time upon arrival to the Mirror Universe. Only on the trip back.
    It could be a simple miscalculation that caused the nine or so month jump. I mean the Stargate wasn't made for time travel either, but under the right conditions its possible.

    Well there's no explanation on what the Mirror Universe actually is, never mind how it works. There was no time dilation in TOS or DS9 as far as I'm aware only the Alliance suddenly forgetting they had cloaks previously.

    There actually was reference to time dilation in TOS several times, but it was implied instead of pedantically spelled out the way they would have done it in TNG. In fact, the second pilot had one of those mentions where Spock states that they can make it to Delta Vega which is "several light days away" yet according to the stardate and relative time references in dialog they make it there in about half a ship's day more or less. That means they had to either be travelling at low FTL speeds or that they were experiencing time dilation and the "several days" passed outside while only hours passed on the ship travelling at relativistic speeds.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    x
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    No. The MN exists through all of real space through subspace (or something similar), it cannot be used to time travel. The Disco time travelling from the MU was due to the extra dimensional travel itself (see the Defiant from TOS to ENT) not the network.

    The World Between Worlds is far more like the Guardian of Forever.

    But it doesn't account for the fact that Discovery didn't jump through time upon arrival to the Mirror Universe. Only on the trip back.
    It could be a simple miscalculation that caused the nine or so month jump. I mean the Stargate wasn't made for time travel either, but under the right conditions its possible.

    Well there's no explanation on what the Mirror Universe actually is, never mind how it works. There was no time dilation in TOS or DS9 as far as I'm aware only the Alliance suddenly forgetting they had cloaks previously.

    There actually was reference to time dilation in TOS several times, but it was implied instead of pedantically spelled out the way they would have done it in TNG. In fact, the second pilot had one of those mentions where Spock states that they can make it to Delta Vega which is "several light days away" yet according to the stardate and relative time references in dialog they make it there in about half a ship's day more or less. That means they had to either be travelling at low FTL speeds or that they were experiencing time dilation and the "several days" passed outside while only hours passed on the ship travelling at relativistic speeds.

    1 Light Day is about 173 AU. For perspective, Voyager 1 is at least 140 AU away from us. It sounds like TOS writers didn't understand FTL speeds since that speed sounds something like what late 21st Century or early 22nd Century ships would travel at not a 23rd Century ship.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    starkaos wrote: »
    1 Light Day is about 173 AU. For perspective, Voyager 1 is at least 140 AU away from us. It sounds like TOS writers didn't understand FTL speeds since that speed sounds something like what late 21st Century or early 22nd Century ships would travel at not a 23rd Century ship.

    To be fair... a lot of things didn't really add up in TOS scientifically. I think I saw somewhere that the levels of UV raditiation needed to kill off the pancake Neural Parasites was actually dangerous to humans. Yet seemed to not be a problem in the show. Also the Enterprise I think was said to be able to wreck a planet with her weapons, yet we don't see that kind of power mentioned in later incarnations of Trek. Then again... TOS was not even consistant with itself too. One episode Enterprise could travel at Warp 14 no problem, the next she's struggling to maintain Warp 7.

    TOS had a lot of throwaway technobabble that made less sense than the tecnobabble from TNG. The TNG cast at least made an effort to make it sound more believable I guess. I guess you could say TOS engineering boiled down to "get the wrench" while TNG was "Follow IKEA directions". lol
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    Oh, no, Warp 14 posed problems - it took Kelvan technology for the ship to withstand the stress. They were pretty consistent about that, with just-barely-audible creaking from the ship's superstructure (and worried calls to the Bridge from Engineering) when they hit the maximum emergency speed of Warp 8. (Of course, how quickly you could get from one place to another at various warp speeds was completely up to the individual writer - to borrow a phrase from Straczynski, the ship moved at the speed of plot.)
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,589 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    The TOS Enterprise never travelled at warp 14 and thereabouts in its normal configuration, it was always either an alien modification or some other wildly improbable chance factor (once it was sabotage to the regulators which caused the warp drive to run wild and punch through into hyperspace instead of immediately blowing up as intended for instance).

    The "light days" thing was a bit iffy, but it was probably to get the idea across that they were close without taking the Enterprise out of circulation for several years limping to Delta Vega on impulse if it was lightyears away instead of light days. By the time I was old enough to realize how close that actually was I assumed that it was either extremely lucky that they were thrown there or that maybe there was some quantum connection between the barrier and the nearer star systems like Delta Vega.

    As for destroying all life on a planet, the phasers on "proximity" setting slammed around and damaged a ship under cloak that they could not pin down the position of any closer than about ten or twenty thousand kilometers, imagine what that would do to people and ordinary buildings over wide swaths of territory if fired at a planet.

    Add to that the fact that they had photon torpedoes which make nuclear bombs look weak (the NX's nuclear missiles would often do nothing to enemy ships even with a direct hit for instance, even the later model warhead that the Romulan ship ejected with debris to fool and maybe blind the Enterprise did little more than minor EMP to systems and light radiation burns to some crew when it detonated at less than a hundred meters from the ship (and Enterprise still had serious shield damage from the plasma torpedo hit earlier or it probably would not have done even that)), and they had more than enough firepower to do the job, especially since the dialog did not give a time limit to do it in.

    As for the Star Wars canon thing, Disney bent over backwards trying to try to avoid alienating the Star Wars fanbase. That included statements of how they were not "destroying" the original canon structure, they were just making a clean start to their version of Star Wars using only properties that they own directly. It was not until after they acquired Lucasfilm that they let slip that they were not going to allow any new additions to the old canon (with the exception of SWTOR which is set far enough in the past that Disney apparently decided to ignore it).

    So, by their own official statements the old Lucasfilm canon is still there frozen at the point they took possession of the IP, which at least sounds a lot like branching canon whether or not they allow any new old-canon material to be added.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,830 Arc User
    allowing SWTOR to continue production had nothing to do with what time period it was set in and everything to do with the fact it was A: still making a shitload of money, which they as the new owners of star wars would be getting cuts of and B: it's developed and published by EA bioware, and as big as disney is, that is NOT a shitefight they want to get involved in by canning it while it's still making so much money​​
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