Yes, Star, it was made, I thought, plentifully clear that Burnham's response to the Klingons in the pilot was extremely bigoted - one reason why Georgiou wouldn't let her go through with her "Vulcan hello" (and if you're going to try to claim Vulcan's aren't bigoted, may I gently suggest you go watch TOS:"Amok Time", DS9:"Take Me Out To the Holosuite", and most of the first season of ENT). And Starfleet's attempt to destroy Qo'noS at the end of DSC season 1 was also based on that same bigotry, which should not be surprising, as they got the idea from mirror!Georgiou.
It is worth noting that the notions were undercut strongly both by the Klingon-Klingon interactions we saw (T'kuvma's followers weren't won away by violence or glory, but by the promise of not starving any more) and by the eventual conclusion to the war, when the crew of Discovery proved to the new Chancellor that humans were indeed capable of honor. Saru and company refused to detonate the device they'd unknowingly planted, but instead warned the High Council of its existence - and the Klingons didn't respond with the orgy of violence that Starfleet's prejudices predicted, but rather with an appreciation that at least some of their foes had quv.
Flash, I do believe that what they were up against there was a temporal paradox. If the database weren't removed to a distant future time, it may not have been possible to defeat CONTROL in current time, just as the jump to that future time wasn't possible until Burnham used the suit to travel back to significant points in the past in order to line up the forces they needed for that final battle. Temporal mechanics are like that sometimes - one of the reasons why the Temporal Cold War had to be fought as a cold war with proxies, not an actual Time War (the presence of future hostilities in what was to them the past might well have made the futures they came from impossible, no matter how subtle they tried to be; for more on this concept, consult David Gerrold's The Man Who Folded Himself, or Fritz Lieber's Change War stories).
also, control was only neutralized inasmuch as a virus can be neutralized in a single machine...it does not render the entire virus no longer a threat, just no longer a threat to THAT specific machine - until it get re-infected, anyway
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
Going back to the topic at hand for a minute...
I'm fine with the possibility that the Discovery version retconned the TOS (or Cage) design visually, as it would be a far more easier refit into the TMP version, especially the swept back pylons.
If it wasn't a visual retcon, then consider that the Enterprise herself was launched in 2245. By the time Kirk takes command, Enterprise is already... what? 20 years old? By then she's bound to have had at least one major refit before Kirk took coomand.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Saying things like "Klingons only respond to violence" is bigoted stereotyping. Saying it and then trying to seize control of the ship over it is using the stereotype as evidence to make a decision.
Is that bigotry or pattern recognition?
Saying it and then taking it to the point of threatening to blow up the Klingon homeworld to get them to retreat? That's the show endorsing bigotry and stereotyping!
It wasn't until AFTER the war had been raging that people even seriously considered attacking the Klingon HW. That's an act of war, during a war. Would it be considered a war crime? Well, probably. I mean you can't avoid civilian casualties when blowing up a planet with civilians on it.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Saying things like "Klingons only respond to violence" is bigoted stereotyping. Saying it and then trying to seize control of the ship over it is using the stereotype as evidence to make a decision.
Is that bigotry or pattern recognition?
Then there is the problem of if culture or race is to blame for a civilization that excessively uses violence to solve their problems.
I'm fine with the possibility that the Discovery version retconned the TOS (or Cage) design visually, as it would be a far more easier refit into the TMP version, especially the swept back pylons.
If it wasn't a visual retcon, then consider that the Enterprise herself was launched in 2245. By the time Kirk takes command, Enterprise is already... what? 20 years old? By then she's bound to have had at least one major refit before Kirk took coomand.
There are too many differences for it to be just a "visual reboot". A refit could not significantly change the size for one thing, and the Discoprise is bigger than the TOS Enterprise. Also the TOS Constitution class are heavily armored fast battleships or heavy battlecruisers masquerading as heavy cruisers (for political reasons) and only supported two active shuttles at a time (like the cat seaplanes on a WWII battleship) while the DSC version is apparently a hybrid carrier similar to todays Kuznetsov class according to the season two ender.
Then there is the matter of the DSC fire control, sensors, and warp drive systems being too primitive compared to the TOS ones to be believable with only an eight year or so gap between them. Some examples:
-The TOS Enterprise could execute complex, precise maneuvers at warp, including combat and even sit in one spot and pivot at warp like the ship was a super fast turret, while I don't think DSC ships can even turn while in warp much less fight while in it. In fact, in a lot of TOS episodes they never use the impulse drive at all (except for powering the phasers), they exit orbit around one planet, usually at warp two, then enter orbit around their destination planet directly from warp.
-TOS Enterprise chased Mudd though an asteroid field at warp, while the Discovery apparently cannot even SEE an asteroid field while at warp.
-And the TOS Enterprise bullseyed a one meter tall robot with a photon torpedo at 90,000 kilometers range while taking fire heavy enough to have the bridge crew rolling around like oranges and dump the ship out of warp, while DSC ships do not seem to be able to hit something several times larger than Discovery at 90,000 FEET or less.
Then there is the matter of the DSC fire control, sensors, and warp drive systems being too primitive compared to the TOS ones to be believable with only an eight year or so gap between them. Some examples:
It is a matter of Discovery being too advanced in some ways and too primitive in others. Discovery's holographic technology and replicator technology is far more advanced than TOS. The holographic technology is even far more advanced than TNG. Discovery had Burnham use it as a mirror and frame Spock for a crime that he didn't commit. In order for Picard to use holograms as a mirror, he would have to go to the Holodeck while Burnham had her own personal holoemitter.
I believe that as the series progressed and moved to movies the technology got more fleshed out. In TOS there aren’t any limitations to warp, other than speed. In TMP we find out that it’s not safe to go to warp in a solar system and the Enterprise can’t fire at warp.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
In TMP we find out that it’s not safe to go to warp in a solar system
I don't recall a single instance of that being an issue in any other Star Trek series including TOS. There are some Science Fiction stories that have that limitation due to the gravitational waves of the nearby star or stars or some other reason. Babylon 5 had a limitation of not going to hyperspace within a planet's atmosphere, but that was due to the potential dangers to the planet and ship and was done at least once in one of their episodes.
-The TOS Enterprise could execute complex, precise maneuvers at warp, including combat and even sit in one spot and pivot at warp like the ship was a super fast turret...
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
In TMP we find out that it’s not safe to go to warp in a solar system
I don't recall a single instance of that being an issue in any other Star Trek series including TOS. There are some Science Fiction stories that have that limitation due to the gravitational waves of the nearby star or stars or some other reason. Babylon 5 had a limitation of not going to hyperspace within a planet's atmosphere, but that was due to the potential dangers to the planet and ship and was done at least once in one of their episodes.
DS9: S5 E15 "By Inferno's Light". Changeling Bashir's runabout is already approaching the Bajoran sun too rapidly for the Defiant to intercept at impulse.
Kira: Wanna bet? Go to warp!
Dax: Inside a solar system?!
Kira: If we don't, there won't be a solar system left!
As for pivoting at warp, that's retconned by later Trek shows - particularly Voyager: 'faster than light, no left or right'.
From TMP: "Captain's log, stardate 7412.6. 1.8 hours from launch. In order to intercept the intruder at the earliest possible time, I must now risk engaging warp drive while still within the solar system."
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Then there is the matter of the DSC fire control, sensors, and warp drive systems being too primitive compared to the TOS ones to be believable with only an eight year or so gap between them. Some examples:
It is a matter of Discovery being too advanced in some ways and too primitive in others. Discovery's holographic technology and replicator technology is far more advanced than TOS. The holographic technology is even far more advanced than TNG. Discovery had Burnham use it as a mirror and frame Spock for a crime that he didn't commit. In order for Picard to use holograms as a mirror, he would have to go to the Holodeck while Burnham had her own personal holoemitter.
So far, except for the spore drive I have not seen anything (except maybe those replicators if they are actually that) in DSC that was actually more advanced than TOS, just things that look more 2017-2018 like the touchscreen controls. While they never show a Federation-tech projected hologram in TOS they do make references to them, and every one of those references (like wondering if someone was playing a joke on them with a holoprojector in "Catspaw" when they see the three "witches" floating in their path) implies that to them a free-air holographic projection would look real and solid, not like those washed out ghostly things in DSC.
In TOS, instead of "replicators" they had "fabricators" which took at least a few minutes to make something from scratch, like the clothes and whatnot that they use for covert missions. If one of the native scientists in "Patterns of Force" got a hold of one of the fabricated fake SS uniforms they would probably have been surprised to find that everything from the cloth to right down to the "leather" in the boots McCoy had so much trouble putting on (and maybe so far as "metal" objects in it) was all made from the same artificial organic polymer (they finally mentioned in TAS that was what the uniforms were made of).
They never went into long technobabble explanations of things like later Treks tend to, but from the hints they do give fabricators seem to be an extremely advanced, probably force-field driven automated manufacturing unit sort of like the ultimate expression of a 3D printer (and sort of like Queenie cooking dinner in mid air in Fantastic Beasts 1) that uses physical source material like that polymer, possibly as far down as the molecular level, instead of particle stores and pure energy on a subatomic level like the replicators. Stuff like the fabricators were actually getting pretty mainstream in science fiction at the time (in fact Lost in Space even had their variant, they would throw clothes (and even shoes) into the "washing machine" and it would come out cleaned, mended, pressed, and packaged in plastic about thirty seconds later, very much like the process in The Jetsons).
TOS was a lot more advanced than a lot of people seem to think, it is just the far lower production values of the time made showing it on screen a lot more difficult than it is today and they often fell short. There were times when in order to get the episodes out by the deadline they literally had to hire every single optical house in Hollywood at the same time (which is why the phasers were so many different colors and whatnot).
As for the warp drive stuff, they did the warp pivot in "Journey to Babel" and regular warp turns in quite a few episodes. They did a hairpin turn in "Operation -- Annihilate!" among others, and they dodge rocks in an asteroid field in "Mudd's Women". They never go to warp in atmosphere, but they would go to (and come out of) warp right from orbit in just about every episode.
Even after the refit, Kirk takes Enterprise on a warp tour of the solar system in TMP, and the times quoted by Spock confirm they were doing it FTL (though not by much).
The whole "no turns" nonsense was used in one episode only because it was essential for the plot in order to give the limelight to Paris for a while (and it was an incredibly clumsy way of doing that). Voyager itself made turns while in warp both before and after that episode if you listen to the dialog and the sound of the engines. The pilot episode for TNG even had Enterprise-D separate while at warp and make a hairpin turn back along the course they were on. Even later (real world air dates wise), in ENT, they have no trouble at all changing course while in warp.
The this clip shows the TNG separation and turn at high warp speed:
where they point out that to many Robbie the Robot looks more advanced than Data from TNG because Robbie has all the shiny surfaces, moving parts, and flashing lights.
There is a kind of strange dichotomy in perception which has always been around. On one hand big, shiny, and busy looking is impressive but on the other hand so is sleek, streamlined, and conveniently small. It is one of the biggest problems set and prop designers face.
People don't automatically know what things are, and they tend to associate them with things they do know, they look at the communicators and think "OMG, look at the size of that old flip phone!" when that communicator prop actually represents something like a very powerful audio/visual/datalink satellite phone instead of a cell phone.
Same thing with the portable "computers", people look at them and think they look like grandpa's old PC without even a proper keyboard or screen, ignoring the fact that it works by voice and displays things by networking with the communicators and tricorders and always has some kind of manufacturing capability (the one Bones uses in "Miri" takes in sample vials and synthesizes chemicals for the hyposprays along with its analysis functions for instance). They think "old PC" when it is actually more like Merck or DuPont in a suitcase.
There is also the dulling effect of familiarity, and TOS has been around for longer than any of the others, in fact longer than most of the audience nowadays, so it is extremely familiar. And even people seeing it for the first time are influenced by all the comments by others who have seen it so much it is old hat to them.
Does the ENT bridge, crammed with 2000's style vented metal equipment cases, screens and lights everywhere, and metal walls and rubber mats really look more advanced than the cleaner, sleeker wood clad consoles and carpeted floor of the TOS bridge? To some it does while to others it doesn't. The wood and carpet make a lot of people think it looks more like a building than a ship (which was actually a deliberate part of the design, based on research the Navy was doing into "submariner fatigue" at the time) which makes it look less cool and "modern" to them than bare metal, exposed pipes, and equipment crammed everywhere.
Roddenberry and Jefferies were going for a more elegant, minimalist look, closer to Klaatu's ship in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" than the Seaview in "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea", a choice that would be very questionable in today's homogenized TV sci-fi mainline environment but perfectly valid for a more experimental approach, which is exactly what Star Trek was back in its day in the first place.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
you know, i figured suddenly disappearing or appearing (ala adama maneuver) in an atmosphere would just cause massive weather disruptions due to major air displacement...thermonuclear explosions are a million times worse
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
you know, i figured suddenly disappearing or appearing (ala adama maneuver) in an atmosphere would just cause massive weather disruptions due to major air displacement...thermonuclear explosions are a million times worse
Depends on secondary energies associated with the drive. The Colonial jump drive just literally disappears the ship from here and puts it there, so the PAoB displaced a battlestar's worth of air (which can be easily absorbed by the overall planetary atmosphere, although it would make an uncomfortable bunkmate). The slipspace drive used in the Halo franchise opens portals to slipspace, which isn't done in atmosphere because of the shockwave associated (the Covenant accidentally destroyed New Mombasa in Halo 2 by opening a slipspace portal over the city, while in Halo: Reach the Spartans blew up a Covenant ship in orbit by placing and activating a defecting slipspace drive in it - the drive opened a portal slightly less than half the size of the ship, making the middle of it go to slipspace while eradicating the rest with the shockwave. Pity the Covenant fleet arrived a few moments later). The hyperdrive in the Star Wars universe, much like the hyperdrive in Larry Niven's Known Space stories, simply won't operate if you're too close to a gravitational point source (in SW it drops you out of hyperdrive, while in Known Space the drive sort of wraps around itself and takes off into dimensions unknown, leaving the ship behind - this was used by the only known space pirate in that universe, in the story "The Borderlands of Sol").
I don't know that Trek has ever defined what might happen if you go to warp inside an atmosphere, but given what we saw in TMP when a drive with a slight imbalance was activated inside the orbit of Jupiter, I have to assume it wouldn't be good.
you know, i figured suddenly disappearing or appearing (ala adama maneuver) in an atmosphere would just cause massive weather disruptions due to major air displacement...thermonuclear explosions are a million times worse
Depends on secondary energies associated with the drive. The Colonial jump drive just literally disappears the ship from here and puts it there, so the PAoB displaced a battlestar's worth of air (which can be easily absorbed by the overall planetary atmosphere, although it would make an uncomfortable bunkmate). The slipspace drive used in the Halo franchise opens portals to slipspace, which isn't done in atmosphere because of the shockwave associated (the Covenant accidentally destroyed New Mombasa in Halo 2 by opening a slipspace portal over the city, while in Halo: Reach the Spartans blew up a Covenant ship in orbit by placing and activating a defecting slipspace drive in it - the drive opened a portal slightly less than half the size of the ship, making the middle of it go to slipspace while eradicating the rest with the shockwave. Pity the Covenant fleet arrived a few moments later). The hyperdrive in the Star Wars universe, much like the hyperdrive in Larry Niven's Known Space stories, simply won't operate if you're too close to a gravitational point source (in SW it drops you out of hyperdrive, while in Known Space the drive sort of wraps around itself and takes off into dimensions unknown, leaving the ship behind - this was used by the only known space pirate in that universe, in the story "The Borderlands of Sol").
I don't know that Trek has ever defined what might happen if you go to warp inside an atmosphere, but given what we saw in TMP when a drive with a slight imbalance was activated inside the orbit of Jupiter, I have to assume it wouldn't be good.
Actually the new movies have jossed Legends' assumption that you can't jump to hyperspace inside a planetary gravity well. Han Solo jumps the Falcon into the atmosphere of Starkiller Base in TFA (narrowly avoiding crashing into the ground because he's that good of a pilot), and the protagonists jump to hyperspace from the lower atmosphere of Jedha in Rogue One to escape the shockwave from a low-power Death Star blast.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
but at the same time, they've also canonized gravity well generators, which very much still CAN pull targets from hyperspace and also prevents hyperspace while in the field
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
you know, i figured suddenly disappearing or appearing (ala adama maneuver) in an atmosphere would just cause massive weather disruptions due to major air displacement...thermonuclear explosions are a million times worse
Depends on secondary energies associated with the drive. The Colonial jump drive just literally disappears the ship from here and puts it there, so the PAoB displaced a battlestar's worth of air (which can be easily absorbed by the overall planetary atmosphere, although it would make an uncomfortable bunkmate). The slipspace drive used in the Halo franchise opens portals to slipspace, which isn't done in atmosphere because of the shockwave associated (the Covenant accidentally destroyed New Mombasa in Halo 2 by opening a slipspace portal over the city, while in Halo: Reach the Spartans blew up a Covenant ship in orbit by placing and activating a defecting slipspace drive in it - the drive opened a portal slightly less than half the size of the ship, making the middle of it go to slipspace while eradicating the rest with the shockwave. Pity the Covenant fleet arrived a few moments later). The hyperdrive in the Star Wars universe, much like the hyperdrive in Larry Niven's Known Space stories, simply won't operate if you're too close to a gravitational point source (in SW it drops you out of hyperdrive, while in Known Space the drive sort of wraps around itself and takes off into dimensions unknown, leaving the ship behind - this was used by the only known space pirate in that universe, in the story "The Borderlands of Sol").
I don't know that Trek has ever defined what might happen if you go to warp inside an atmosphere, but given what we saw in TMP when a drive with a slight imbalance was activated inside the orbit of Jupiter, I have to assume it wouldn't be good.
Actually the new movies have jossed Legends' assumption that you can't jump to hyperspace inside a planetary gravity well. Han Solo jumps the Falcon into the atmosphere of Starkiller Base in TFA (narrowly avoiding crashing into the ground because he's that good of a pilot), and the protagonists jump to hyperspace from the lower atmosphere of Jedha in Rogue One to escape the shockwave from a low-power Death Star blast.
In Star Wars, atmosphere has nothing to do with it, it is the gravity gradient that complicates things.
Mara Jade pulled the same trick essentially, using the force to "feel" what the parameters were and used her powers to interact with and modify the jump field. Solo may have suspected that Rey could do the same thing instinctively if he set up her expectations so she would do it without realizing it (though that might be expecting too much subtlety from Disney).
There are also hints that Solo's "bad feelings" and extraordinary piloting abilities could be a tiny and very narrowly focused trace of Force sensitivity below detectible levels, so he may have intuitively known the adjustments to make to the drive settings keep the ship in hyper just an instant longer before the planet's gravity dumped them out where he wanted to be. This one seems less likely than the first one though, the somewhat cagey way he acted around Rey seems more like he was setting the first theory up (though it is always possible that it could be some combination of the two).
I have not seen Rogue One so I have no idea of the circumstances, though wasn't there a force sensitive of some sort in that movie too? Maybe they did something like the second theory (or Disney just didn't understand how hyperdrive worked in the original stories and got it wrong in both cases).
Anyway, Star Wars aside and back to Trek. In the case of warp drive use in atmosphere, if they were careful and took it slow it probably would not do much but if they made a sudden high power acceleration it might cause problems. During the Klingon civil war there was a scene where a star-skimming chase low over a star was used as a trap to shake off pursuit by triggering a coronal mass ejection using a sudden acceleration to maximum warp. They never explained exactly why it triggered the CME though there have been a lot of fan theories that usually play on some aspect of gravitoelectromagnetism.
Either way, it would take a small chunk of atmosphere with it since it is already established that they do inadvertently take things along in their warp bubble at various times though the chunk itself probably would not be big enough to be noticeable as anything but a big boom.
In addition to said refit of the Enterprise, she gets her new Captain. James T Kirk. Pike retires from the Enterprise and does various things outside of Starfleet till we see him in TOS again in the wheel chair. Kirk then promotes Spock and Number 1 goes to do whatever it is she does.
Scotty takes command of the refit process just like he did during the TMP refit in the movies. That refit is the basis now for all Starfleet vessels and its because of the Enterprise's success, Starfleet starts pumping Constitution Classes like they were on clearance.
Sulu also gets picked up from Starfleet Security and Uhura comes aboard because of her language skills because the Enterprise will be going into deep space.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "This planet smells, it must be the Klingons"
Pike didn't retire, he was promoted, this is canon. He was injured commanding a training ship full of cadets. There was no refit either as the visual differences do not exist in universe.
Or at least no visual difference on whatever timeline DSC happens anyway. At least three Star Trek series show the TOS Enterprise looking like it did in TOS. And there are other inconsistencies that are not simply visual too, like Chekov would be unlikely to think Mara was beautiful if she looked like Mr. Toad the way the DSC Klingons generally do, so that particular scene in "Day of the Dove" would have happened differently for instance.
If they are shifting everything around instead of sticking to established history (and the probability of radical change is actually consistent with the extreme number of temporal interventions they show and imply in DSC) that means that ALL of the looks are both valid and invalid at the same time, because there is a difference in the shows themselves and there no telling what the IP holder may do in the future that might negate either or both yet again.
In fact, the future that is featured in the third season could, in theory, even only exist because the Discovery went missing before it, or someone on it, (or a descendent of someone on it that was never born because of the disappearance), could participate in a critical event of some sort. When they start playing with changes to the timeline all bets are off.
Anyway, in-setting the most likely explanation is still paradox differences if they are supposed to be the same timeline.
an Inncodent where the Enterprise had to do Emergency Saucer Separation
I think the reason why the Struts and the bridge dome changed for two reasons first the Struts housed the Plasma Conduits where The Warp Plasma Travels to the Warp Engines and they were a lot thicker so the Struts had to compensate that; But Due to enhancements in Warp propulsion the Plasma Conduits may have been Streamlined and the Struts shrunk because if it. When the New Vertical Warp Cores was introduced in the Late Mid23rd century they had to go back the Original struts (with some minor upgrades) compensate for both the New Warp Engine and the Warp Plasma Conduits.
The Second Reason is a little more hit a miss I think as to do with Sensors enhancements Now this can go back to the 2250s with the N.X. Class with the N.X. 01 Enterprise using the Sensor View Screen and not the Window View Screen like most ships of the 23rd Century (Before TOS) like the Hollow Graphic Communications the Sensors View Screen may not be as reliable as once thought when it was first brought out in the N.X. Class so the switched to the Windows View Screen for the time being but when More enhancements in Sensors came out they switched back to the Sensors View Screen and they kept on using it since then that's my theory on that
May the Shwartz Be With You
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
Or at least no visual difference on whatever timeline DSC happens anyway. At least three Star Trek series show the TOS Enterprise looking like it did in TOS. And there are other inconsistencies that are not simply visual too, like Chekov would be unlikely to think Mara was beautiful if she looked like Mr. Toad the way the DSC Klingons generally do, so that particular scene in "Day of the Dove" would have happened differently for instance.
Enterprise established that there are TOS style Klingons because of the Augment Virus.
There's no reason to assume that the ENTIRE population was infected by the Augment Virus, and there is no reason to assume that the TOS style Klingons don't exist anymore.
Just because we didn't see any TOS style Klingons (although I think that one on the bridge of L'Rell's D7 might be close) doesn't mean they aren't there. Just like how we know there are more classes of ship in TOS even though we never actually see any other than the Connie.
So rather than assume everything got retconned out of existance...
Simple answer: They just weren't there at the time.
Remember we still got at least 10 years before Kirk takes command. At this point its possible that the Klingons still view those affected by the Augment Virus with distrust. But under L'Rell that may change, allowing Kor, Mara, and all the other TOS Klingons we know to rise through the ranks.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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It is worth noting that the notions were undercut strongly both by the Klingon-Klingon interactions we saw (T'kuvma's followers weren't won away by violence or glory, but by the promise of not starving any more) and by the eventual conclusion to the war, when the crew of Discovery proved to the new Chancellor that humans were indeed capable of honor. Saru and company refused to detonate the device they'd unknowingly planted, but instead warned the High Council of its existence - and the Klingons didn't respond with the orgy of violence that Starfleet's prejudices predicted, but rather with an appreciation that at least some of their foes had quv.
Flash, I do believe that what they were up against there was a temporal paradox. If the database weren't removed to a distant future time, it may not have been possible to defeat CONTROL in current time, just as the jump to that future time wasn't possible until Burnham used the suit to travel back to significant points in the past in order to line up the forces they needed for that final battle. Temporal mechanics are like that sometimes - one of the reasons why the Temporal Cold War had to be fought as a cold war with proxies, not an actual Time War (the presence of future hostilities in what was to them the past might well have made the futures they came from impossible, no matter how subtle they tried to be; for more on this concept, consult David Gerrold's The Man Who Folded Himself, or Fritz Lieber's Change War stories).
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I'm fine with the possibility that the Discovery version retconned the TOS (or Cage) design visually, as it would be a far more easier refit into the TMP version, especially the swept back pylons.
If it wasn't a visual retcon, then consider that the Enterprise herself was launched in 2245. By the time Kirk takes command, Enterprise is already... what? 20 years old? By then she's bound to have had at least one major refit before Kirk took coomand.
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It wasn't until AFTER the war had been raging that people even seriously considered attacking the Klingon HW. That's an act of war, during a war. Would it be considered a war crime? Well, probably. I mean you can't avoid civilian casualties when blowing up a planet with civilians on it.
My character Tsin'xing
you just KNOW that was no accident, especially after section 31 showed up on the block 30-some years ago
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Then there is the problem of if culture or race is to blame for a civilization that excessively uses violence to solve their problems.
There are too many differences for it to be just a "visual reboot". A refit could not significantly change the size for one thing, and the Discoprise is bigger than the TOS Enterprise. Also the TOS Constitution class are heavily armored fast battleships or heavy battlecruisers masquerading as heavy cruisers (for political reasons) and only supported two active shuttles at a time (like the cat seaplanes on a WWII battleship) while the DSC version is apparently a hybrid carrier similar to todays Kuznetsov class according to the season two ender.
Then there is the matter of the DSC fire control, sensors, and warp drive systems being too primitive compared to the TOS ones to be believable with only an eight year or so gap between them. Some examples:
-The TOS Enterprise could execute complex, precise maneuvers at warp, including combat and even sit in one spot and pivot at warp like the ship was a super fast turret, while I don't think DSC ships can even turn while in warp much less fight while in it. In fact, in a lot of TOS episodes they never use the impulse drive at all (except for powering the phasers), they exit orbit around one planet, usually at warp two, then enter orbit around their destination planet directly from warp.
-TOS Enterprise chased Mudd though an asteroid field at warp, while the Discovery apparently cannot even SEE an asteroid field while at warp.
-And the TOS Enterprise bullseyed a one meter tall robot with a photon torpedo at 90,000 kilometers range while taking fire heavy enough to have the bridge crew rolling around like oranges and dump the ship out of warp, while DSC ships do not seem to be able to hit something several times larger than Discovery at 90,000 FEET or less.
It is a matter of Discovery being too advanced in some ways and too primitive in others. Discovery's holographic technology and replicator technology is far more advanced than TOS. The holographic technology is even far more advanced than TNG. Discovery had Burnham use it as a mirror and frame Spock for a crime that he didn't commit. In order for Picard to use holograms as a mirror, he would have to go to the Holodeck while Burnham had her own personal holoemitter.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I don't recall a single instance of that being an issue in any other Star Trek series including TOS. There are some Science Fiction stories that have that limitation due to the gravitational waves of the nearby star or stars or some other reason. Babylon 5 had a limitation of not going to hyperspace within a planet's atmosphere, but that was due to the potential dangers to the planet and ship and was done at least once in one of their episodes.
[citation needed]
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
DS9: S5 E15 "By Inferno's Light". Changeling Bashir's runabout is already approaching the Bajoran sun too rapidly for the Defiant to intercept at impulse.
Kira: Wanna bet? Go to warp!
Dax: Inside a solar system?!
Kira: If we don't, there won't be a solar system left!
As for pivoting at warp, that's retconned by later Trek shows - particularly Voyager: 'faster than light, no left or right'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
My character Tsin'xing
"Captain's log, stardate 7412.6. 1.8 hours from launch. In order to intercept the intruder at the earliest possible time, I must now risk engaging warp drive while still within the solar system."
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
So far, except for the spore drive I have not seen anything (except maybe those replicators if they are actually that) in DSC that was actually more advanced than TOS, just things that look more 2017-2018 like the touchscreen controls. While they never show a Federation-tech projected hologram in TOS they do make references to them, and every one of those references (like wondering if someone was playing a joke on them with a holoprojector in "Catspaw" when they see the three "witches" floating in their path) implies that to them a free-air holographic projection would look real and solid, not like those washed out ghostly things in DSC.
In TOS, instead of "replicators" they had "fabricators" which took at least a few minutes to make something from scratch, like the clothes and whatnot that they use for covert missions. If one of the native scientists in "Patterns of Force" got a hold of one of the fabricated fake SS uniforms they would probably have been surprised to find that everything from the cloth to right down to the "leather" in the boots McCoy had so much trouble putting on (and maybe so far as "metal" objects in it) was all made from the same artificial organic polymer (they finally mentioned in TAS that was what the uniforms were made of).
They never went into long technobabble explanations of things like later Treks tend to, but from the hints they do give fabricators seem to be an extremely advanced, probably force-field driven automated manufacturing unit sort of like the ultimate expression of a 3D printer (and sort of like Queenie cooking dinner in mid air in Fantastic Beasts 1) that uses physical source material like that polymer, possibly as far down as the molecular level, instead of particle stores and pure energy on a subatomic level like the replicators. Stuff like the fabricators were actually getting pretty mainstream in science fiction at the time (in fact Lost in Space even had their variant, they would throw clothes (and even shoes) into the "washing machine" and it would come out cleaned, mended, pressed, and packaged in plastic about thirty seconds later, very much like the process in The Jetsons).
TOS was a lot more advanced than a lot of people seem to think, it is just the far lower production values of the time made showing it on screen a lot more difficult than it is today and they often fell short. There were times when in order to get the episodes out by the deadline they literally had to hire every single optical house in Hollywood at the same time (which is why the phasers were so many different colors and whatnot).
As for the warp drive stuff, they did the warp pivot in "Journey to Babel" and regular warp turns in quite a few episodes. They did a hairpin turn in "Operation -- Annihilate!" among others, and they dodge rocks in an asteroid field in "Mudd's Women". They never go to warp in atmosphere, but they would go to (and come out of) warp right from orbit in just about every episode.
Even after the refit, Kirk takes Enterprise on a warp tour of the solar system in TMP, and the times quoted by Spock confirm they were doing it FTL (though not by much).
The whole "no turns" nonsense was used in one episode only because it was essential for the plot in order to give the limelight to Paris for a while (and it was an incredibly clumsy way of doing that). Voyager itself made turns while in warp both before and after that episode if you listen to the dialog and the sound of the engines. The pilot episode for TNG even had Enterprise-D separate while at warp and make a hairpin turn back along the course they were on. Even later (real world air dates wise), in ENT, they have no trouble at all changing course while in warp.
The this clip shows the TNG separation and turn at high warp speed:
That is true, as is this:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAestheticsOfTechnology
where they point out that to many Robbie the Robot looks more advanced than Data from TNG because Robbie has all the shiny surfaces, moving parts, and flashing lights.
There is a kind of strange dichotomy in perception which has always been around. On one hand big, shiny, and busy looking is impressive but on the other hand so is sleek, streamlined, and conveniently small. It is one of the biggest problems set and prop designers face.
People don't automatically know what things are, and they tend to associate them with things they do know, they look at the communicators and think "OMG, look at the size of that old flip phone!" when that communicator prop actually represents something like a very powerful audio/visual/datalink satellite phone instead of a cell phone.
Same thing with the portable "computers", people look at them and think they look like grandpa's old PC without even a proper keyboard or screen, ignoring the fact that it works by voice and displays things by networking with the communicators and tricorders and always has some kind of manufacturing capability (the one Bones uses in "Miri" takes in sample vials and synthesizes chemicals for the hyposprays along with its analysis functions for instance). They think "old PC" when it is actually more like Merck or DuPont in a suitcase.
There is also the dulling effect of familiarity, and TOS has been around for longer than any of the others, in fact longer than most of the audience nowadays, so it is extremely familiar. And even people seeing it for the first time are influenced by all the comments by others who have seen it so much it is old hat to them.
Does the ENT bridge, crammed with 2000's style vented metal equipment cases, screens and lights everywhere, and metal walls and rubber mats really look more advanced than the cleaner, sleeker wood clad consoles and carpeted floor of the TOS bridge? To some it does while to others it doesn't. The wood and carpet make a lot of people think it looks more like a building than a ship (which was actually a deliberate part of the design, based on research the Navy was doing into "submariner fatigue" at the time) which makes it look less cool and "modern" to them than bare metal, exposed pipes, and equipment crammed everywhere.
Roddenberry and Jefferies were going for a more elegant, minimalist look, closer to Klaatu's ship in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" than the Seaview in "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea", a choice that would be very questionable in today's homogenized TV sci-fi mainline environment but perfectly valid for a more experimental approach, which is exactly what Star Trek was back in its day in the first place.
B5 ships don't have to actually accelerate to enter hyperspace; they just open a door. Ships in Star Trek and Star Wars very much do.
I think Randall Munroe's "Relativistic Baseball" thought experiment succinctly describes the problem @shadowfang240 is referring to.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I don't know that Trek has ever defined what might happen if you go to warp inside an atmosphere, but given what we saw in TMP when a drive with a slight imbalance was activated inside the orbit of Jupiter, I have to assume it wouldn't be good.
Actually the new movies have jossed Legends' assumption that you can't jump to hyperspace inside a planetary gravity well. Han Solo jumps the Falcon into the atmosphere of Starkiller Base in TFA (narrowly avoiding crashing into the ground because he's that good of a pilot), and the protagonists jump to hyperspace from the lower atmosphere of Jedha in Rogue One to escape the shockwave from a low-power Death Star blast.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In Star Wars, atmosphere has nothing to do with it, it is the gravity gradient that complicates things.
Mara Jade pulled the same trick essentially, using the force to "feel" what the parameters were and used her powers to interact with and modify the jump field. Solo may have suspected that Rey could do the same thing instinctively if he set up her expectations so she would do it without realizing it (though that might be expecting too much subtlety from Disney).
There are also hints that Solo's "bad feelings" and extraordinary piloting abilities could be a tiny and very narrowly focused trace of Force sensitivity below detectible levels, so he may have intuitively known the adjustments to make to the drive settings keep the ship in hyper just an instant longer before the planet's gravity dumped them out where he wanted to be. This one seems less likely than the first one though, the somewhat cagey way he acted around Rey seems more like he was setting the first theory up (though it is always possible that it could be some combination of the two).
I have not seen Rogue One so I have no idea of the circumstances, though wasn't there a force sensitive of some sort in that movie too? Maybe they did something like the second theory (or Disney just didn't understand how hyperdrive worked in the original stories and got it wrong in both cases).
Anyway, Star Wars aside and back to Trek. In the case of warp drive use in atmosphere, if they were careful and took it slow it probably would not do much but if they made a sudden high power acceleration it might cause problems. During the Klingon civil war there was a scene where a star-skimming chase low over a star was used as a trap to shake off pursuit by triggering a coronal mass ejection using a sudden acceleration to maximum warp. They never explained exactly why it triggered the CME though there have been a lot of fan theories that usually play on some aspect of gravitoelectromagnetism.
Either way, it would take a small chunk of atmosphere with it since it is already established that they do inadvertently take things along in their warp bubble at various times though the chunk itself probably would not be big enough to be noticeable as anything but a big boom.
Scotty takes command of the refit process just like he did during the TMP refit in the movies. That refit is the basis now for all Starfleet vessels and its because of the Enterprise's success, Starfleet starts pumping Constitution Classes like they were on clearance.
Sulu also gets picked up from Starfleet Security and Uhura comes aboard because of her language skills because the Enterprise will be going into deep space.
Or at least no visual difference on whatever timeline DSC happens anyway. At least three Star Trek series show the TOS Enterprise looking like it did in TOS. And there are other inconsistencies that are not simply visual too, like Chekov would be unlikely to think Mara was beautiful if she looked like Mr. Toad the way the DSC Klingons generally do, so that particular scene in "Day of the Dove" would have happened differently for instance.
If they are shifting everything around instead of sticking to established history (and the probability of radical change is actually consistent with the extreme number of temporal interventions they show and imply in DSC) that means that ALL of the looks are both valid and invalid at the same time, because there is a difference in the shows themselves and there no telling what the IP holder may do in the future that might negate either or both yet again.
In fact, the future that is featured in the third season could, in theory, even only exist because the Discovery went missing before it, or someone on it, (or a descendent of someone on it that was never born because of the disappearance), could participate in a critical event of some sort. When they start playing with changes to the timeline all bets are off.
Anyway, in-setting the most likely explanation is still paradox differences if they are supposed to be the same timeline.
The Second Reason is a little more hit a miss I think as to do with Sensors enhancements Now this can go back to the 2250s with the N.X. Class with the N.X. 01 Enterprise using the Sensor View Screen and not the Window View Screen like most ships of the 23rd Century (Before TOS) like the Hollow Graphic Communications the Sensors View Screen may not be as reliable as once thought when it was first brought out in the N.X. Class so the switched to the Windows View Screen for the time being but when More enhancements in Sensors came out they switched back to the Sensors View Screen and they kept on using it since then that's my theory on that
Enterprise established that there are TOS style Klingons because of the Augment Virus.
There's no reason to assume that the ENTIRE population was infected by the Augment Virus, and there is no reason to assume that the TOS style Klingons don't exist anymore.
Just because we didn't see any TOS style Klingons (although I think that one on the bridge of L'Rell's D7 might be close) doesn't mean they aren't there. Just like how we know there are more classes of ship in TOS even though we never actually see any other than the Connie.
So rather than assume everything got retconned out of existance...
Simple answer: They just weren't there at the time.
Remember we still got at least 10 years before Kirk takes command. At this point its possible that the Klingons still view those affected by the Augment Virus with distrust. But under L'Rell that may change, allowing Kor, Mara, and all the other TOS Klingons we know to rise through the ranks.
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