or the nineties Eugenics War(s) in the "past" or a totally civilian story in the "present" of the 24th or 25th century.
The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
or the nineties Eugenics War(s) in the "past" or a totally civilian story in the "present" of the 24th or 25th century.
The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
According to the Space Seed episode.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
Which was later contradicted with Enterprise putting the last so-called World War in the 21st Century. Genetic Engineering played a role in World War 3, but there was no mention of Khan and his fellow Augments had anything to do with World War 3.
or the nineties Eugenics War(s) in the "past" or a totally civilian story in the "present" of the 24th or 25th century.
The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
According to the Space Seed episode.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
Which was later contradicted with Enterprise putting the last so-called World War in the 21st Century. Genetic Engineering played a role in World War 3, but there was no mention of Khan and his fellow Augments had anything to do with World War 3.
No, it was later contradicted immediately by Kirk saying '200 years ago'.
Obviously their last world war was WWIII which also means the Eugenics wars were WWIII which fits Kirks dialogue of 200 years. This is then agreed upon by every single later source leaving only the split second reference to 1990. The Eugenics Wars happened in the 2050s.
Spock only skimmed the Wikipedia page and Kirk and McCoy were too polite to tell him.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
or the nineties Eugenics War(s) in the "past" or a totally civilian story in the "present" of the 24th or 25th century.
The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
According to the Space Seed episode.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
Which was later contradicted with Enterprise putting the last so-called World War in the 21st Century. Genetic Engineering played a role in World War 3, but there was no mention of Khan and his fellow Augments had anything to do with World War 3.
No, it was later contradicted immediately by Kirk saying '200 years ago'.
Obviously their last world war was WWIII which also means the Eugenics wars were WWIII which fits Kirks dialogue of 200 years. This is then agreed upon by every single later source leaving only the split second reference to 1990. The Eugenics Wars happened in the 2050s.
Spock only skimmed the Wikipedia page and Kirk and McCoy were too polite to tell him.
More Evidence that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s in Space Seed.
SPOCK: Much older. DY-100 class, to be exact. Captain, the last such vessel was built centuries ago, back in the 1990s.
KIRK: Kirk out. Seventy two alive. A group of people dating back to the 1990s. A discovery of some importance, Mister Spock. There are a great many unanswered questions about those years.
KIRK: What was the exact date of your lift off? We know it was sometime in the early 1990s, but
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
There is only the one mention of 200 hundred years, but numerous mentions of the 1990s so Kirk was not being exact in his statement. Therefore, the Eugenics Wars that dealt with Khan and the Augments were in the 1990s not the 2050s.
> @sthe91 said:
> lordgyor wrote: »
>
> A Seven of Nine spin off, but with her hack in full cat suit gear.
>
>
>
>
> How about no? Instead her rocking her Starfleet uniform.
Seven isn't IN Starfleet so why would she have a Starfleet uniform? A Borg Cooperative Uniform maybe.
The Catsuit is negiotable I guess, but I prefer it, if only to tweek the noses of those neovictorian prudes who would be offended by it.
I could go for the Borg Cooperative uniform then but not the catsuit unless she finally goes to Starfleet Academy and joins Starfleet. I disagree that those who do not like it are Neo-Victorian prudes. That is not very nice.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
or the war just never reached the united states...like most wars
but yes, they definitely retconned it
Plausible, but the only evidence that it might have been retconned is from The Augments episode from Enterprise.
MALIK: It's also the name of a pre-warp vessel launched at the end of the Great Wars. The ship carried many of our brethren, including Khan Noonien Singh.
No specific date is given, but since Malik is an Augment, then the end of the Great Wars could have nothing to do with World War III since an Augment would likely not care about wars that involve inferior humans fighting among themselves. So the end of the Great Wars would mean the end of the Eugenics Wars to an Augment, but the end of World War III to a regular human.
The Eugenics Wars was mentioned in the Borderlands episode from Enterprise while the Third World War and World War Three are mentioned in the Demons and Terra Prime episodes from Enterprise that dealt with Colonel Green which means that they are two separate wars according to Enterprise.
or the nineties Eugenics War(s) in the "past" or a totally civilian story in the "present" of the 24th or 25th century.
The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
According to the Space Seed episode.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
Which was later contradicted with Enterprise putting the last so-called World War in the 21st Century. Genetic Engineering played a role in World War 3, but there was no mention of Khan and his fellow Augments had anything to do with World War 3.
No, it was later contradicted immediately by Kirk saying '200 years ago'.
Obviously their last world war was WWIII which also means the Eugenics wars were WWIII which fits Kirks dialogue of 200 years. This is then agreed upon by every single later source leaving only the split second reference to 1990. The Eugenics Wars happened in the 2050s.
Spock only skimmed the Wikipedia page and Kirk and McCoy were too polite to tell him.
More Evidence that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s in Space Seed.
SPOCK: Much older. DY-100 class, to be exact. Captain, the last such vessel was built centuries ago, back in the 1990s.
KIRK: Kirk out. Seventy two alive. A group of people dating back to the 1990s. A discovery of some importance, Mister Spock. There are a great many unanswered questions about those years.
KIRK: What was the exact date of your lift off? We know it was sometime in the early 1990s, but
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
There is only the one mention of 200 hundred years, but numerous mentions of the 1990s so Kirk was not being exact in his statement. Therefore, the Eugenics Wars that dealt with Khan and the Augments were in the 1990s not the 2050s.
Except that's wrong. It's in the 50s.
200 years prior to 2265 is 2165. Rounded.
The DY-500 was launched in the 2100s so it's not going to be over 100 years between them and the DY-100s.
VGR visited the 90s, no mention of the wars.
TVH visited the 80s, no mention of the upcoming wars, even with Khan being the driving force of the last two films.
300 years prior to 2370 is 2170. Rounded.
The Eugenics Wars and WWIII are the same conflict and WWIII explicitly ended in 2053. It's possible that the EWs are a series of conflicts inside WWIII like the various separate conflicts that made up the Cold War.
Archer's grandfather was involved in the conflict, the 90s are too early for that.
Green and Khan are wearing the same uniforms in TOS.
Harrison has experience with warp capable starships in ID. This is a working theory by WWIII not in the 90s.
I'm sure even you understand what a retcon is, it's where continuity is changed out of universe to have always been something different. This technically happens directly in Space Seed because TOS was originally much further in the future than the 2260s making '200 years' and the '90s' already incompatible. This is later picked up by every single instalment of the franchise without a single exception.
The Eugenics Wars was mentioned in the Borderlands episode from Enterprise while the Third World War and World War Three are mentioned in the Demons and Terra Prime episodes from Enterprise that dealt with Colonel Green which means that they are two separate wars according to Enterprise.
Uum no. It means the EWs (plural) were a series of conflicts happening within WWIII. As long as they had overall different ideologies they'll be separated enough to mention differently. The wars against Japan are often treated separately from the ones against the Axis in WWII but are all part of WWII.
The Eugenics wars happened in the 2050s without any shred doubt whatsoever.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The dates of the Eugenics Wars and the associated Third World War have been tweaked many times over the years. Remember that when TOS was written in the mid-1960s, manned asteroid-mining craft and cryonic suspension seemed like things that might be doable by the 1990s. Also remember that when Gene wrote the series bible, he was a little vague about just how far in the future it was supposed to be set - some episodes implied 200 years after the filming date, some 400 or 500, most just never addressed the question. (It was one of the reasons they used "stardates", and why the stardates used weren't necessarily in sequence.)
By the current iteration, the Eugenics Wars are folded into WW3, which takes place sometime after 2051 (as that was, IIRC, the earliest date Riker could put on a fragment of old US space probe based on the fact that its flag had 51 stars). It's preceded by the Bell Riots of the 2040s, and ends up with most if not all known governments collapsing by 2063, the year Zephram Cochrane flies the Phoenix and attracts the attention of a passing Vulcan ship.
As history marches on, the date will doubtless be retconned again...
Honestly, I like the solution that the "Eugenics Wars" were really just things like the Yugoslav Wars, the Rwandan genocide, and the collapse of Somalia but with sci-fi elements added in. Maybe the war with Daesh, too, if you extend the timeline another couple of decades. And, I mean, it's not like there haven't been real regimes trying to use eugenics to create a "master race".
Also, Ben Sisko, the only real history buff among the protagonist captains, never once brings up the topic--not even in the episode where Julian is outed as an Augment (it's the JAG admiral who does that, not Sisko). But he does talk about obscure stuff that nobody else has a clue about, like the role of the Bell Riots in getting the United States to start sorting its economy out (an episode which has significant resonance to a Millennial like me).
So, one interpretation is simply that the "Eugenics Wars" are really just a nothingburger created by misconceptions in the Federation's popular understanding of history, slightly modified incidents of the 1990s that were conflated with bits of World War III. Which explains why everybody and his sister has a different date for it, too.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Honestly, I like the solution that the "Eugenics Wars" were really just things like the Yugoslav Wars, the Rwandan genocide, and the collapse of Somalia but with sci-fi elements added in. Maybe the war with Daesh, too, if you extend the timeline another couple of decades. And, I mean, it's not like there haven't been real regimes trying to use eugenics to create a "master race".
Also, Ben Sisko, the only real history buff among the protagonist captains, never once brings up the topic--not even in the episode where Julian is outed as an Augment (it's the JAG admiral who does that, not Sisko). But he does talk about obscure stuff that nobody else has a clue about, like the role of the Bell Riots in getting the United States to start sorting its economy out (an episode which has significant resonance to a Millennial like me).
So, one interpretation is simply that the "Eugenics Wars" are really just a nothingburger created by misconceptions in the Federation's popular understanding of history, slightly modified incidents of the 1990s that were conflated with bits of World War III. Which explains why everybody and his sister has a different date for it, too.
Intriguingly, that leaves open the possibility that the "Eugenics Wars" weren't even a thing, and that people during the Post-Atomic Horror were conflating the beginnings of CRISPR technology with the atrocities committed by returning WW3 soldiers hopped up on combat booster drugs and cybernetics.
Which, of course, leads to the conclusion that it's possible Augments were unfairly scapegoated for everything as United Earth formed, and only the refusal of the Department of Temporal Investigations to permit time-travelers to closely observe the era prevents their collective name from being cleared...
What if the Eugenics Wars did take place during the 1990's... Until Gary Seven showed up and managed to put them off until the 2150's without major changes to the timeline? After all, his alien benefactors did possess the technology to use a transporter through time. Suppose they saw that rare phenomenon when two divergent timelines converge to form one and decided to simply do away with the bloodier of the two?
> @jonsills said: > Intriguingly, that leaves open the possibility that the "Eugenics Wars" weren't even a thing, and that people during the Post-Atomic Horror were conflating the beginnings of CRISPR technology with the atrocities committed by returning WW3 soldiers hopped up on combat booster drugs and cybernetics. > > Which, of course, leads to the conclusion that it's possible Augments were unfairly scapegoated for everything as United Earth formed, and only the refusal of the Department of Temporal Investigations to permit time-travelers to closely observe the era prevents their collective name from being cleared...
Last paragraph especially, I've been running with for a while. I mean, somebody had to have MADE the Augments, they didn't just come out of thin air.
We also know a lot more about genetics now than we did in the '60s—remember that "Space Seed" was less than a decade after Watson, Crick, and Wilkins got the '62 Nobel for Medicine just for DISCOVERING DNA. Environmental factors have a crapton more to do with how people turn out than the basic DNA would suggest.
Case in point: Julian Bashir. He's basically a Khan-class Augment: enhanced musculature, human calculator-level intelligence, and at least initially he's an arrogant SOB. But he's better than that: he puts his big brain to work saving lives as a doctor.
So yeah, genetic determinism is a crock and the Federation pretty much treats augs the way the far right treats the bogeyman du jour. I need to link the story I cowrote with Worffan101 about an Augment pulling a Rosa Parks on UE.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
or the nineties Eugenics War(s) in the "past" or a totally civilian story in the "present" of the 24th or 25th century.
The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
According to the Space Seed episode.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
Which was later contradicted with Enterprise putting the last so-called World War in the 21st Century. Genetic Engineering played a role in World War 3, but there was no mention of Khan and his fellow Augments had anything to do with World War 3.
No, it was later contradicted immediately by Kirk saying '200 years ago'.
Obviously their last world war was WWIII which also means the Eugenics wars were WWIII which fits Kirks dialogue of 200 years. This is then agreed upon by every single later source leaving only the split second reference to 1990. The Eugenics Wars happened in the 2050s.
Spock only skimmed the Wikipedia page and Kirk and McCoy were too polite to tell him.
More Evidence that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s in Space Seed.
SPOCK: Much older. DY-100 class, to be exact. Captain, the last such vessel was built centuries ago, back in the 1990s.
KIRK: Kirk out. Seventy two alive. A group of people dating back to the 1990s. A discovery of some importance, Mister Spock. There are a great many unanswered questions about those years.
KIRK: What was the exact date of your lift off? We know it was sometime in the early 1990s, but
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
There is only the one mention of 200 hundred years, but numerous mentions of the 1990s so Kirk was not being exact in his statement. Therefore, the Eugenics Wars that dealt with Khan and the Augments were in the 1990s not the 2050s.
Except that's wrong. It's in the 50s.
200 years prior to 2265 is 2165. Rounded.
The DY-500 was launched in the 2100s so it's not going to be over 100 years between them and the DY-100s.
VGR visited the 90s, no mention of the wars.
TVH visited the 80s, no mention of the upcoming wars, even with Khan being the driving force of the last two films.
300 years prior to 2370 is 2170. Rounded.
The Eugenics Wars and WWIII are the same conflict and WWIII explicitly ended in 2053. It's possible that the EWs are a series of conflicts inside WWIII like the various separate conflicts that made up the Cold War.
Archer's grandfather was involved in the conflict, the 90s are too early for that.
Green and Khan are wearing the same uniforms in TOS.
Harrison has experience with warp capable starships in ID. This is a working theory by WWIII not in the 90s.
I'm sure even you understand what a retcon is, it's where continuity is changed out of universe to have always been something different. This technically happens directly in Space Seed because TOS was originally much further in the future than the 2260s making '200 years' and the '90s' already incompatible. This is later picked up by every single instalment of the franchise without a single exception.
The Eugenics Wars was mentioned in the Borderlands episode from Enterprise while the Third World War and World War Three are mentioned in the Demons and Terra Prime episodes from Enterprise that dealt with Colonel Green which means that they are two separate wars according to Enterprise.
Uum no. It means the EWs (plural) were a series of conflicts happening within WWIII. As long as they had overall different ideologies they'll be separated enough to mention differently. The wars against Japan are often treated separately from the ones against the Axis in WWII but are all part of WWII.
The Eugenics wars happened in the 2050s without any shred doubt whatsoever.
There are 6 lines in Space Seed that directly reference the 1990s. "From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East." is far more important in establishing when Khan was a threat to the rest of the world than "I remember a voice. Did I hear it say I had been sleeping for two centuries?" or "Yes, I understand. You have two hundred years of catching up to do." Space Seed has clearly established when Khan and his Augments were active and when they left Earth and it is not in the 21st Century. So if the Eugenics Wars was in the 2050s, then it didn't involve Khan and his Augments.
There is absolutely no evidence that the Eugenics Wars was part of World War III. The Eugenics Wars might led to World War III, but that is it. It was Archer's great-grandfather not his grandfather that was involved in the Eugenics War.
ARCHER: My great grandfather was in North Africa during the Eugenics Wars. His battalion was evacuating civilians from a war zone when they came under attack. There was a school full of children directly between them and the enemy. If his men had returned fire, they might have hit it. So he called the commander on the other side, and got him to agree to hold his fire long enough to evacuate the school. There are rules, Trip, even in war. We have to help these children.
Obviously Khan would have experience with warp capable starships in Into Darkness since Admiral Marcus was using him to create weapons and ships for him. Therefore, Khan would have been given an extensive course on 23rd Century technology which would include warp capable ships and likely a significant research budget to create new weapons and technology. However, none of that proves that Khan was involved in World War III.
There is no reason why The Voyage Home or Future's End would mention Khan and the Eugenics Wars or Khan since they were not part of the story.
As far as Green and Khan wearing the same uniform in TOS, a red shirt doesn't mean they are wearing the same uniform.
There is some evidence that would have put TOS in the 2160s since there is this line from The Savage Curtain since TOS never personally established when it was set.
SCOTT: Lincoln died three centuries ago on a planet hundreds of light years away.
SPOCK: More that direction, Engineer.
If Lincoln didn't die three centuries ago, then Spock would have informed Scott when Lincoln died in addition to where Lincoln died. Lincoln died in 1865 so three centuries later would be 2165 not 2265. So according to The Savage Curtain, then TOS was a century earlier than 2265 not "much further in the future than the 2260s".
So until a Star Trek series retcons the Eugenics Wars to the 2050s, then it is officially set in the 1990s. Personally, I don't see the point of retconning Star Trek to fit our reality since it is a fictional story set in its own universe and they will have to change it in 5 years for the Bell Riots and 6 years for the start of World War III if they want to always retcon it to fit our reality. Also, I don't see anyone trying to retcon Voyager to rename Chronowerx into Google.
Star Trek: Bajor. - A follow up to Deep Space Nine and how the station has gotten along since the end of the Dominion War and how Bajor has progressed into a power in the quadrant including the influence of the now legendary Emissary Captain Benjamin Sisko.
Star Trek: Red - We don't know very much about the late 23rd to 24th centuries and how Starfleet evolved into the fleet we see in TNG then the one we see in Undiscovered Country. The phasing in of new ships like the Ambassador Class and Constellation Class. It would be fun the see the Federation grow out of its Kirk TMP era.
Star Trek The Next Generation (The Animated Series): I think we need a gritty animated series like Justice League Unlimited and Batman Beyond. A series that explores the unseen missions of the Enterprise D before Generations and her eventual destruction. Voice actors are easy to get away with then real ones and you can then make the crew young again.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "This planet smells, it must be the Klingons"
Entire populations bombed out of existence and all major cities destroyed is incompatible with Future's End unless you are claiming Las Angeles is not a major city, in which case I shall laugh at you intensely. Spock and McCoy themselves flat out stated that WW3 and The Eugenics Wars are one and the same. This also means that a war that ended in 2053 10 years before First Contact did not start in 1990 anything.
Where was it ever said in Space Seed that all major cities were destroyed due to the Eugenics Wars? LA might have been destroyed during World War III in the 2020s to 2050s, but not during the Eugenics Wars with Khan. There is absolutely no evidence in Star Trek that Khan was ever involved with World War III or that nuclear weapons were used during the Eugenics Wars.
Most wars that the US has been involved in were overseas with life going on as normal in the US during the Iraq War. During the Iraq War, there were no rationing, conscription, or women being forced to work in the military factories. So bombing a bunch of places in the Middle East and Asia would not affect the story of Voyager going to LA. There is also the issue of introducing the Eugenics Wars into Voyager would distract from the time travel story since they would have to explain the Eugenics Wars to the audience.
None of the Enterprise episodes that deal with Augments mentions World War III while none of the Enterprise episodes that deals with World War III mentions the Eugenics Wars. According to the Borderlands episode from Enterprise, the In the Flesh episode from Voyager, and First Contact, the Eugenics Wars killed 30 million people while World War III killed 600 million people.
PHLOX: You tried to redesign your species. The first time that was attempted on Earth, the result was thirty million deaths.
DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.
SEVEN: And yet, in Earth's Third World War, nuclear weapons accounted for six hundred million casualties. Were they looking on the bright side?
So until some Star Trek series decides to retcon the Eugenics Wars to the 21st Century, then it is canon that the Eugenics Wars is in the 1990s with 30 million deaths and World War III is from the 2020s to the 2050s with 600 million deaths.
Well, there's this, from TOS: "Bread and Circuses":
SPOCK: I find the checks and balances of this civilization quite illuminating.
McCOY: Next he'll be telling us he prefers it over Earth history.
SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
McCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism --
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty-seven million who died in your third - shall I go on?
37 million is quite a difference from 600 million...
Well, there's this, from TOS: "Bread and Circuses":
SPOCK: I find the checks and balances of this civilization quite illuminating.
McCOY: Next he'll be telling us he prefers it over Earth history.
SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
McCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism --
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty-seven million who died in your third - shall I go on?
37 million is quite a difference from 600 million...
Obviously, it has been retconned since First Contact. The New Eden episode of Discovery also supports the 600 million dead in World War III claim.
The arrival of those people on the planet directly coincides with World War III on Earth, a nuclear cataclysm that left 600 million dead and governments destroyed.
I'd love to see a Romulan republic tv show. Or a Romulan Focus Tv show Along with a Proper Klingon Show with tng style Klingons. I'd like to see at least from a different prospective.
I'd love to see a Romulan republic tv show. Or a Romulan Focus Tv show Along with a Proper Klingon Show with tng style Klingons. I'd like to see at least from a different prospective.
My first impression of Discovery when the first trailer with "New Heroes. New Villains. New Crews. New Ships." and we knew absolutely nothing about it was that it would be an anthology series. So a few episodes would be about Klingons, a few episodes would be about Romulans, etc. An entire series would not be likely, but a Star Trek anthology would be able to have episodes dealing with various alien cultures and different eras like the time between Enterprise and TOS or TOS and TNG.
> @starkaos said:
> artan42 wrote: »
>
> starkaos wrote: »
>
> artan42 wrote: »
>
> daderganonumbers wrote: »
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> or the nineties Eugenics War(s) in the "past" or a totally civilian story in the "present" of the 24th or 25th century.
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> The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
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> According to the Space Seed episode.
> SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
> MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
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> Which was later contradicted with Enterprise putting the last so-called World War in the 21st Century. Genetic Engineering played a role in World War 3, but there was no mention of Khan and his fellow Augments had anything to do with World War 3.
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> No, it was later contradicted immediately by Kirk saying '200 years ago'.
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> Obviously their last world war was WWIII which also means the Eugenics wars were WWIII which fits Kirks dialogue of 200 years. This is then agreed upon by every single later source leaving only the split second reference to 1990. The Eugenics Wars happened in the 2050s.
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> Spock only skimmed the Wikipedia page and Kirk and McCoy were too polite to tell him.
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> More Evidence that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s in Space Seed.
> SPOCK: Much older. DY-100 class, to be exact. Captain, the last such vessel was built centuries ago, back in the 1990s.
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> KIRK: Kirk out. Seventy two alive. A group of people dating back to the 1990s. A discovery of some importance, Mister Spock. There are a great many unanswered questions about those years.
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> KIRK: What was the exact date of your lift off? We know it was sometime in the early 1990s, but
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> SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
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> SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
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> There is only the one mention of 200 hundred years, but numerous mentions of the 1990s so Kirk was not being exact in his statement. Therefore, the Eugenics Wars that dealt with Khan and the Augments were in the 1990s not the 2050s.
Its called a retcon. Voyager travelled to 1996 in Future's End and guess what, there was no war going on.
Interesting you should mention Voyager, since it implies in "Future's End" that the crash of the timeship in 1967 and Henry Starling's exploitation of its technology was what delayed the Eugenics wars a decade or two by shifting the focus of research into other disciplines. Instead of the string of exceptionally bloody brush wars leading up to WWIII that TOS brushed on it is possible that timeship paradox caused them to be crunched together into one big and even bloodier war (600 million in a lump instead of about 67 million spread between the eugenics wars (30M) and WWIII (37M)).
That inadvertent intervention may well have changed things in ways that lead to First Contact and ENT instead of the events they talked (very briefly) about in "Metamorphosis" and other TOS episodes. The slowdown in eugenics research makes a lot of sense if someone was trying to avoid the wars, and the "brain drain" of not having the unstable but super-genius augments earlier combined with the suppression of innovation that a monopolistic business empire like Starling's exerts would slow everything else down. So while in the past of TOS nations were repurposing submarine shipyards into making crude spaceships around the turn of the 21st century, it apparently took another forty or fifty years to happen in pre-ENT history according to their augment two-parter (though they do not nail it down exactly either).
As for the time that TOS was set in, the series bible mentioned it was sometime 200 to 500 years in the future, quite a wide range. Most of the writers seemed to take the "200" part and run with it though. In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" the officer questioning Kirk tells him that they have enough to put him away "for 200 years", to which Kirk mutters to himself "That would be just about right", which also puts it in the 2160s or thereabouts though authors used other figures at times too.
Well, there's this, from TOS: "Bread and Circuses":
SPOCK: I find the checks and balances of this civilization quite illuminating.
McCOY: Next he'll be telling us he prefers it over Earth history.
SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
McCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism --
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty-seven million who died in your third - shall I go on?
37 million is quite a difference from 600 million...
And 11 million is quite a difference from the current estimate of 70-85 million people who died in World War II, half of them Chinese, and probably a quarter of the remainder Soviet (the exact military/civilian proportions are subject to some debate). Hell, German military MIA and KIA alone account for 4.3 million casualties.
This is far from the only time Spock's grasp of Earth history is way out of whack; look at what he said of the supposed efficiency of the NSDAP regime in "Patterns of Force". (Yes, I know that was a legit belief IRL at the time. We know better now.) I chalk it up to the fact that A, he isn't human and didn't grow up on it--for reference, I studied Virginia and North Carolina state history in elementary school, American history in middle through high school, and took AP European History in 12th grade and still learned more about Europe listening to Sabaton as an adult--and B, as I previously argued, the historical record in Federation pop history is more than a little screwy.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Interesting you should mention Voyager, since it implies in "Future's End" that the crash of the timeship in 1967 and Henry Starling's exploitation of its technology was what delayed the Eugenics wars a decade or two by shifting the focus of research into other disciplines. Instead of the string of exceptionally bloody brush wars leading up to WWIII that TOS brushed on it is possible that timeship paradox caused them to be crunched together into one big and even bloodier war (600 million in a lump instead of about 67 million spread between the eugenics wars (30M) and WWIII (37M)).
That's not hinted at all. The retcon was already made in TVH where no impending WWIII was mentioned and then in DS9 where they added the corect 100 years onto TOS' figures.
That inadvertent intervention may well have changed things in ways that lead to First Contact and ENT instead of the events they talked (very briefly) about in "Metamorphosis" and other TOS episodes. The slowdown in eugenics research makes a lot of sense if someone was trying to avoid the wars, and the "brain drain" of not having the unstable but super-genius augments earlier combined with the suppression of innovation that a monopolistic business empire like Starling's exerts would slow everything else down. So while in the past of TOS nations were repurposing submarine shipyards into making crude spaceships around the turn of the 21st century, it apparently took another forty or fifty years to happen in pre-ENT history according to their augment two-parter (though they do not nail it down exactly either).
No. Even TNG disagrees with TOS' version of history. It's a retcon not a timeline change.
As for the time that TOS was set in, the series bible mentioned it was sometime 200 to 500 years in the future, quite a wide range. Most of the writers seemed to take the "200" part and run with it though. In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" the officer questioning Kirk tells him that they have enough to put him away "for 200 years", to which Kirk mutters to himself "That would be just about right", which also puts it in the 2160s or thereabouts though authors used other figures at times too.
Ironically making the 200 years comment the onl correct thing in Space Seed other than the EWs and WWIII being the same conflicts.
And 11 million is quite a difference from the current estimate of 70-85 million people who died in World War II, half of them Chinese, and probably a quarter of the remainder Soviet (the exact military/civilian proportions are subject to some debate). Hell, German military MIA and KIA alone account for 4.3 million casualties.
I think it'd be very difficult to get any sort of accurate or precise estimates from wars that destroyed records so effectively that even Spock was under the impression they took place 200 years before they did.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The Eugenics wars were in the 2050s, 200 years prior to TOS and 300 years prior to DS9.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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According to the Space Seed episode.
Which was later contradicted with Enterprise putting the last so-called World War in the 21st Century. Genetic Engineering played a role in World War 3, but there was no mention of Khan and his fellow Augments had anything to do with World War 3.
No, it was later contradicted immediately by Kirk saying '200 years ago'.
Obviously their last world war was WWIII which also means the Eugenics wars were WWIII which fits Kirks dialogue of 200 years. This is then agreed upon by every single later source leaving only the split second reference to 1990. The Eugenics Wars happened in the 2050s.
Spock only skimmed the Wikipedia page and Kirk and McCoy were too polite to tell him.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
More Evidence that the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s in Space Seed.
There is only the one mention of 200 hundred years, but numerous mentions of the 1990s so Kirk was not being exact in his statement. Therefore, the Eugenics Wars that dealt with Khan and the Augments were in the 1990s not the 2050s.
I could go for the Borg Cooperative uniform then but not the catsuit unless she finally goes to Starfleet Academy and joins Starfleet. I disagree that those who do not like it are Neo-Victorian prudes. That is not very nice.
but yes, they definitely retconned it
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Plausible, but the only evidence that it might have been retconned is from The Augments episode from Enterprise.
No specific date is given, but since Malik is an Augment, then the end of the Great Wars could have nothing to do with World War III since an Augment would likely not care about wars that involve inferior humans fighting among themselves. So the end of the Great Wars would mean the end of the Eugenics Wars to an Augment, but the end of World War III to a regular human.
The Eugenics Wars was mentioned in the Borderlands episode from Enterprise while the Third World War and World War Three are mentioned in the Demons and Terra Prime episodes from Enterprise that dealt with Colonel Green which means that they are two separate wars according to Enterprise.
Except that's wrong. It's in the 50s.
I'm sure even you understand what a retcon is, it's where continuity is changed out of universe to have always been something different. This technically happens directly in Space Seed because TOS was originally much further in the future than the 2260s making '200 years' and the '90s' already incompatible. This is later picked up by every single instalment of the franchise without a single exception.
Uum no. It means the EWs (plural) were a series of conflicts happening within WWIII. As long as they had overall different ideologies they'll be separated enough to mention differently. The wars against Japan are often treated separately from the ones against the Axis in WWII but are all part of WWII.
The Eugenics wars happened in the 2050s without any shred doubt whatsoever.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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By the current iteration, the Eugenics Wars are folded into WW3, which takes place sometime after 2051 (as that was, IIRC, the earliest date Riker could put on a fragment of old US space probe based on the fact that its flag had 51 stars). It's preceded by the Bell Riots of the 2040s, and ends up with most if not all known governments collapsing by 2063, the year Zephram Cochrane flies the Phoenix and attracts the attention of a passing Vulcan ship.
As history marches on, the date will doubtless be retconned again...
Also, Ben Sisko, the only real history buff among the protagonist captains, never once brings up the topic--not even in the episode where Julian is outed as an Augment (it's the JAG admiral who does that, not Sisko). But he does talk about obscure stuff that nobody else has a clue about, like the role of the Bell Riots in getting the United States to start sorting its economy out (an episode which has significant resonance to a Millennial like me).
So, one interpretation is simply that the "Eugenics Wars" are really just a nothingburger created by misconceptions in the Federation's popular understanding of history, slightly modified incidents of the 1990s that were conflated with bits of World War III. Which explains why everybody and his sister has a different date for it, too.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Which, of course, leads to the conclusion that it's possible Augments were unfairly scapegoated for everything as United Earth formed, and only the refusal of the Department of Temporal Investigations to permit time-travelers to closely observe the era prevents their collective name from being cleared...
What if the Eugenics Wars did take place during the 1990's... Until Gary Seven showed up and managed to put them off until the 2150's without major changes to the timeline? After all, his alien benefactors did possess the technology to use a transporter through time. Suppose they saw that rare phenomenon when two divergent timelines converge to form one and decided to simply do away with the bloodier of the two?
> Intriguingly, that leaves open the possibility that the "Eugenics Wars" weren't even a thing, and that people during the Post-Atomic Horror were conflating the beginnings of CRISPR technology with the atrocities committed by returning WW3 soldiers hopped up on combat booster drugs and cybernetics.
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> Which, of course, leads to the conclusion that it's possible Augments were unfairly scapegoated for everything as United Earth formed, and only the refusal of the Department of Temporal Investigations to permit time-travelers to closely observe the era prevents their collective name from being cleared...
Last paragraph especially, I've been running with for a while. I mean, somebody had to have MADE the Augments, they didn't just come out of thin air.
We also know a lot more about genetics now than we did in the '60s—remember that "Space Seed" was less than a decade after Watson, Crick, and Wilkins got the '62 Nobel for Medicine just for DISCOVERING DNA. Environmental factors have a crapton more to do with how people turn out than the basic DNA would suggest.
Case in point: Julian Bashir. He's basically a Khan-class Augment: enhanced musculature, human calculator-level intelligence, and at least initially he's an arrogant SOB. But he's better than that: he puts his big brain to work saving lives as a doctor.
So yeah, genetic determinism is a crock and the Federation pretty much treats augs the way the far right treats the bogeyman du jour. I need to link the story I cowrote with Worffan101 about an Augment pulling a Rosa Parks on UE.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There are 6 lines in Space Seed that directly reference the 1990s. "From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East." is far more important in establishing when Khan was a threat to the rest of the world than "I remember a voice. Did I hear it say I had been sleeping for two centuries?" or "Yes, I understand. You have two hundred years of catching up to do." Space Seed has clearly established when Khan and his Augments were active and when they left Earth and it is not in the 21st Century. So if the Eugenics Wars was in the 2050s, then it didn't involve Khan and his Augments.
There is absolutely no evidence that the Eugenics Wars was part of World War III. The Eugenics Wars might led to World War III, but that is it. It was Archer's great-grandfather not his grandfather that was involved in the Eugenics War.
Obviously Khan would have experience with warp capable starships in Into Darkness since Admiral Marcus was using him to create weapons and ships for him. Therefore, Khan would have been given an extensive course on 23rd Century technology which would include warp capable ships and likely a significant research budget to create new weapons and technology. However, none of that proves that Khan was involved in World War III.
There is no reason why The Voyage Home or Future's End would mention Khan and the Eugenics Wars or Khan since they were not part of the story.
As far as Green and Khan wearing the same uniform in TOS, a red shirt doesn't mean they are wearing the same uniform.
There is some evidence that would have put TOS in the 2160s since there is this line from The Savage Curtain since TOS never personally established when it was set.
If Lincoln didn't die three centuries ago, then Spock would have informed Scott when Lincoln died in addition to where Lincoln died. Lincoln died in 1865 so three centuries later would be 2165 not 2265. So according to The Savage Curtain, then TOS was a century earlier than 2265 not "much further in the future than the 2260s".
So until a Star Trek series retcons the Eugenics Wars to the 2050s, then it is officially set in the 1990s. Personally, I don't see the point of retconning Star Trek to fit our reality since it is a fictional story set in its own universe and they will have to change it in 5 years for the Bell Riots and 6 years for the start of World War III if they want to always retcon it to fit our reality. Also, I don't see anyone trying to retcon Voyager to rename Chronowerx into Google.
Star Trek: Bajor. - A follow up to Deep Space Nine and how the station has gotten along since the end of the Dominion War and how Bajor has progressed into a power in the quadrant including the influence of the now legendary Emissary Captain Benjamin Sisko.
Star Trek: Red - We don't know very much about the late 23rd to 24th centuries and how Starfleet evolved into the fleet we see in TNG then the one we see in Undiscovered Country. The phasing in of new ships like the Ambassador Class and Constellation Class. It would be fun the see the Federation grow out of its Kirk TMP era.
Star Trek The Next Generation (The Animated Series): I think we need a gritty animated series like Justice League Unlimited and Batman Beyond. A series that explores the unseen missions of the Enterprise D before Generations and her eventual destruction. Voice actors are easy to get away with then real ones and you can then make the crew young again.
Where was it ever said in Space Seed that all major cities were destroyed due to the Eugenics Wars? LA might have been destroyed during World War III in the 2020s to 2050s, but not during the Eugenics Wars with Khan. There is absolutely no evidence in Star Trek that Khan was ever involved with World War III or that nuclear weapons were used during the Eugenics Wars.
Most wars that the US has been involved in were overseas with life going on as normal in the US during the Iraq War. During the Iraq War, there were no rationing, conscription, or women being forced to work in the military factories. So bombing a bunch of places in the Middle East and Asia would not affect the story of Voyager going to LA. There is also the issue of introducing the Eugenics Wars into Voyager would distract from the time travel story since they would have to explain the Eugenics Wars to the audience.
None of the Enterprise episodes that deal with Augments mentions World War III while none of the Enterprise episodes that deals with World War III mentions the Eugenics Wars. According to the Borderlands episode from Enterprise, the In the Flesh episode from Voyager, and First Contact, the Eugenics Wars killed 30 million people while World War III killed 600 million people.
So until some Star Trek series decides to retcon the Eugenics Wars to the 21st Century, then it is canon that the Eugenics Wars is in the 1990s with 30 million deaths and World War III is from the 2020s to the 2050s with 600 million deaths.
37 million is quite a difference from 600 million...
Obviously, it has been retconned since First Contact. The New Eden episode of Discovery also supports the 600 million dead in World War III claim.
My first impression of Discovery when the first trailer with "New Heroes. New Villains. New Crews. New Ships." and we knew absolutely nothing about it was that it would be an anthology series. So a few episodes would be about Klingons, a few episodes would be about Romulans, etc. An entire series would not be likely, but a Star Trek anthology would be able to have episodes dealing with various alien cultures and different eras like the time between Enterprise and TOS or TOS and TNG.
Interesting you should mention Voyager, since it implies in "Future's End" that the crash of the timeship in 1967 and Henry Starling's exploitation of its technology was what delayed the Eugenics wars a decade or two by shifting the focus of research into other disciplines. Instead of the string of exceptionally bloody brush wars leading up to WWIII that TOS brushed on it is possible that timeship paradox caused them to be crunched together into one big and even bloodier war (600 million in a lump instead of about 67 million spread between the eugenics wars (30M) and WWIII (37M)).
That inadvertent intervention may well have changed things in ways that lead to First Contact and ENT instead of the events they talked (very briefly) about in "Metamorphosis" and other TOS episodes. The slowdown in eugenics research makes a lot of sense if someone was trying to avoid the wars, and the "brain drain" of not having the unstable but super-genius augments earlier combined with the suppression of innovation that a monopolistic business empire like Starling's exerts would slow everything else down. So while in the past of TOS nations were repurposing submarine shipyards into making crude spaceships around the turn of the 21st century, it apparently took another forty or fifty years to happen in pre-ENT history according to their augment two-parter (though they do not nail it down exactly either).
As for the time that TOS was set in, the series bible mentioned it was sometime 200 to 500 years in the future, quite a wide range. Most of the writers seemed to take the "200" part and run with it though. In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" the officer questioning Kirk tells him that they have enough to put him away "for 200 years", to which Kirk mutters to himself "That would be just about right", which also puts it in the 2160s or thereabouts though authors used other figures at times too.
And 11 million is quite a difference from the current estimate of 70-85 million people who died in World War II, half of them Chinese, and probably a quarter of the remainder Soviet (the exact military/civilian proportions are subject to some debate). Hell, German military MIA and KIA alone account for 4.3 million casualties.
This is far from the only time Spock's grasp of Earth history is way out of whack; look at what he said of the supposed efficiency of the NSDAP regime in "Patterns of Force". (Yes, I know that was a legit belief IRL at the time. We know better now.) I chalk it up to the fact that A, he isn't human and didn't grow up on it--for reference, I studied Virginia and North Carolina state history in elementary school, American history in middle through high school, and took AP European History in 12th grade and still learned more about Europe listening to Sabaton as an adult--and B, as I previously argued, the historical record in Federation pop history is more than a little screwy.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That's not hinted at all. The retcon was already made in TVH where no impending WWIII was mentioned and then in DS9 where they added the corect 100 years onto TOS' figures.
No. Even TNG disagrees with TOS' version of history. It's a retcon not a timeline change.
Ironically making the 200 years comment the onl correct thing in Space Seed other than the EWs and WWIII being the same conflicts.
I think it'd be very difficult to get any sort of accurate or precise estimates from wars that destroyed records so effectively that even Spock was under the impression they took place 200 years before they did.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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