I will agree that there are no rules to time travel for Star Trek if you can give me one instance where changing the past doesn't change the present.
The Department of Temporal Investigation knew that the historical image of Gabriel Bell had changed. If changing the past changed the present in all instances, then Bell would always have looked like Sisko in the historical documents.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
the DTI is probably also constantly temporally-shielded
But according to Star's "rules", there should be no such thing as temporal shielding against an event that occurred before the shielding was created. Unless you're positing that there was an early version of DTI operating in 2024 with such shielding already in place, they should have the same changed history as everyone else - if changing history in Trek always works the same way.
the DTI is probably also constantly temporally-shielded
But according to Star's "rules", there should be no such thing as temporal shielding against an event that occurred before the shielding was created. Unless you're positing that there was an early version of DTI operating in 2024 with such shielding already in place, they should have the same changed history as everyone else - if changing history in Trek always works the same way.
Any where have I said that? All I have ever said is Changing the past changes the present. If temporal shielding didn't work against an event that occurred before the shielding was created, then there would be no point for the Temporal Integrity Commission from the 29th Century to exist. Temporal Shield was only shown in Voyager and it protected Voyager from Annorax modifying time by erasing civilizations from ever being created. Janeway dropped the temporal shielding so she wouldn't be able to remember the nightmare cause by the Annorax. So there could be some room in the Department of Temporal Investigations that has knowledge of every previous timeline since the temporal shielding was created. Which is exactly the case for the Department of Temporal Investigation novels.
And which still negates your point - if changing the past changes the present in all cases, any "changes" existing before the development of temporal shielding would be part of the "natural" history of the universe, and would be what the DTI and its successors fight to preserve. The simple fact that temporal shielding works the way it does disproves the notion that Star Trek is in any way consistent in its treatment of time travel.
You asked for a single point that shows even one instance where changing the past doesn't change the present. I gave it to you. Waving your hands and chanting "temporal shielding" doesn't invalidate the evidence.
Are you sure you are remembering it from a DS9 episode and not a novel like the STO novel which features the Department of Temporal Investigations? Novels don't count as evidence only what is shown on screen. All it says in the Past Tense episode is:
SISKO: Come in.
BASHIR: How do you feel?
SISKO: Better.
BASHIR: I thought you might like to see this. I found it in the historical database.
(On the PADD, Sisko is captioned as Gabriel Bell.)
SISKO: I'm not looking forward to explaining this to Starfleet Command.
BASHIR: Well, at least it's a good picture. You know, Commander, having seen a little of the twenty first century there is one thing I don't understand. How could they have let things get so bad?
SISKO: That's a good question. I wish I had an answer.
So it proves that Sisko changed the present by changing the past even if it is an extremely minor change of him being Gabriel Bell at the Bell Riots instead of the original. AFAIK, the Department of Temporal Investigations is only present in Trials and Tribble-ations episode and there was no mention of Sisko being at the Bell Riots in that episode.
There actually is a problem in Trek time travel stories in that it is not always clear whether they are actually going back and forth along the same timeline, crossing between timelines, or both. Also, in-setting events are not always the best proof since it almost always involves the characters guessing about what happened, while often the writer is the only one who really knows what it was all about.
It is a given that the prime timeline and the Kelvin timeline both exist together, neither overwriting the other, because that was what was decided before the story was written in the first place and the story was written with that concept as its foundation. In some cases (like this one) canon cannot be served solely by what happens onscreen alone because while the story could not exist without the concept of the split it is actually not central enough to the actions of the plot to spend the time to fully flesh it out for the audience.
In fact, not only was it supposed to be a branch, the natural laws of the universe of that branch were supposed to be slightly different and makes the "go back and fix it" thing impossible according to Orci (which also shoots down the theory that Kelvin and DSC are directly connected since the whole Red Angel thing would be impossible in Kelvin). In fact, Orci said that it was not a prequel to TOS at all, it was a sequel to Nemesis where some of the characters end up in a place very similar to a pre-TOS that is not exactly their own past.
Most of the time travel stuff in Trek can actually be unified if the geometry of spacetime is not linear (like for instance the theory that time is an illusion and essentially everything really happens at once though we perceive it as a linear progression) and different methods of travel effect different aspects of it. In fact, there was some dialog where it was mentioned that changes in time could theoretically ripple in both directions at once (which could explain the massive differences in technology among other things).
We could always follow the theory that there is no Prime Timeline and each episode or arc is in an alternate reality. So the only continuity errors in Star Trek are ones that are limited to a specific episode not the ones that contradict different episodes.
In fact, not only was it supposed to be a branch, the natural laws of the universe of that branch were supposed to be slightly different and makes the "go back and fix it" thing impossible according to Orci (which also shoots down the theory that Kelvin and DSC are directly connected since the whole Red Angel thing would be impossible in Kelvin). In fact, Orci said that it was not a prequel to TOS at all, it was a sequel to Nemesis where some of the characters end up in a place very similar to a pre-TOS that is not exactly their own past.
Orci's headcanon is not supported by canon and can be ignored. Spock and Nero go back into Spock's own past in the year of his own birth, not the past of a similar Spock. That was Kurtzman's headcanon and the only one of the production staff of the trilogy (including Abrams' plan for a full reboot, and Peggs headcanon about ripples) headcanons that made it to actual canon.
Most of the time travel stuff in Trek can actually be unified if the geometry of spacetime is not linear (like for instance the theory that time is an illusion and essentially everything really happens at once though we perceive it as a linear progression) and different methods of travel effect different aspects of it.
No it couldn't. All, not most, all, of Treks Time Travel is unified in the laws of its own universe in that there's different forms of Time Travel with different rules that look, from the outside, a lot like what ever the plot demands.
In fact, there was some dialog where it was mentioned that changes in time could theoretically ripple in both directions at once (which could explain the massive differences in technology among other things).
There was no such dialogue and there is no massive differences in technology. The technology of the Kelvin is direct step up from the technology of the NX and Franklin, and direct step prior to Discovery which is, in turn, a direct step down from TWoK.
We could always follow the theory that there is no Prime Timeline and each episode or arc is in an alternate reality. So the only continuity errors in Star Trek are ones that are limited to a specific episode not the ones that contradict different episodes.
That's not a theory, that's barely a hypothesis and it's bloody stupid. Star Trek is a fictional universe that depends on narrative flow. If there is no flow and instead, noly individual puddles of narrative sprinkled everywhere then you've killed the whole point.
It's also in direct contradictory to the IP owner's intent so it's doubly stupid
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
In fact, not only was it supposed to be a branch, the natural laws of the universe of that branch were supposed to be slightly different and makes the "go back and fix it" thing impossible according to Orci (which also shoots down the theory that Kelvin and DSC are directly connected since the whole Red Angel thing would be impossible in Kelvin). In fact, Orci said that it was not a prequel to TOS at all, it was a sequel to Nemesis where some of the characters end up in a place very similar to a pre-TOS that is not exactly their own past.
Orci's headcanon is not supported by canon and can be ignored. Spock and Nero go back into Spock's own past in the year of his own birth, not the past of a similar Spock. That was Kurtzman's headcanon and the only one of the production staff of the trilogy (including Abrams' plan for a full reboot, and Peggs headcanon about ripples) headcanons that made it to actual canon.
The "headcanon" of the person who came up with the idea pretty much defines canon actually, and it was Orci who came up with the loopback-and-split idea as the form of the reboot in the first place. And back in the day Kurtzman talked about the split and how time travel worked differently in that universe so it was not just Orci who considered the loop a spiral of sorts and not necessarily a straight-back linear one.
And what makes you think Orci's idea is "not supported by canon"? If you watch the movie it plays out just the way Orci said though other interpretations can be made (espicially since it was not a very consistent movie, pages and pages of plot holes and contradictions have been published about it).
And if you go by ENT, the plasma cannons that USS Kelvin was armed with along with phasers and photon torpedoes were considered obsolete a century before Narada dropped out of that hole in space, so why would a 23rd century ship waste power on them that could be better used for the not-obsolete phasers?
For that matter, why does Kelvin "warp" act like transwarp instead of the warp that was shown in every other Star Trek up until that time? Why is there no fixed chain of command like there was in The Cage and TOS, just arbitrary snap decisions of the captain about who is in command in his absence? The Kelvin was already in operation before the Narada showed up and it already had differences from known canon tech and procedures.
Most of the time travel stuff in Trek can actually be unified if the geometry of spacetime is not linear (like for instance the theory that time is an illusion and essentially everything really happens at once though we perceive it as a linear progression) and different methods of travel effect different aspects of it.
No it couldn't. All, not most, all, of Treks Time Travel is unified in the laws of its own universe in that there's different forms of Time Travel with different rules that look, from the outside, a lot like what ever the plot demands.
We are actually saying pretty much the same thing here, the only difference is that I speculate on what form that loose unification could take based on some real quantum time theories.
In fact, there was some dialog where it was mentioned that changes in time could theoretically ripple in both directions at once (which could explain the massive differences in technology among other things).
There was no such dialogue and there is no massive differences in technology. The technology of the Kelvin is direct step up from the technology of the NX and Franklin, and direct step prior to Discovery which is, in turn, a direct step down from TWoK.
I suppose I should have been more clear with that, the dialog was in TNG, not 2009, and in fact the series ender pretty much revolved around the idea of ripples in both directions.
We could always follow the theory that there is no Prime Timeline and each episode or arc is in an alternate reality. So the only continuity errors in Star Trek are ones that are limited to a specific episode not the ones that contradict different episodes.
That's not a theory, that's barely a hypothesis and it's bloody stupid. Star Trek is a fictional universe that depends on narrative flow. If there is no flow and instead, noly individual puddles of narrative sprinkled everywhere then you've killed the whole point.
It's also in direct contradictory to the IP owner's intent so it's doubly stupid
So besides the obvious reason for the extensive amount of continuity errors in Star Trek, how would you explain them that makes sense in the Star Trek universe? The obvious reason is the boring reason. With the Parallels episode, we are told that there are hundreds of thousands of parallel universes that are extremely similar to each other. So we only assume that each episode is in the Prime Timeline. Then there is the fact that the Prime Timeline is constantly changed due to time travel. So the Prime Timeline in The Man Trap is not the same Prime Timeline as Nemesis.
Why does everything need to be explained? That lead to the most terrible plots in Trek (augment virus, for instance).
When O'Brien wore an ensign pip because the prop department didn't make up the hollow pip yet he wasn't in some alternate reality, same when he wore Lt pips. He also didn't get promoted and demoted between scenes. Some things are just errors.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Why does everything need to be explained? That lead to the most terrible plots in Trek (augment virus, for instance).
When O'Brien wore an ensign pip because the prop department didn't make up the hollow pip yet he wasn't in some alternate reality, same when he wore Lt pips. He also didn't get promoted and demoted between scenes. Some things are just errors.
Because it is the curse of being a Star Trek fanatic. They like to search for explanations on everything. Real life explanations are too boring when a more interesting explanation is far more fun to create. There was absolutely no reason to explain how transporters and warp drives work, but we have explanations for them.
> @starkaos said: > > Because it is the curse of being a Star Trek fanatic. They like to search for explanations on everything. Real life explanations are too boring when a more interesting explanation is far more fun to create. There was absolutely no reason to explain how transporters and warp drives work, but we have explanations for them.
Those are two entirely different things, though. It's a difference whether I explain how the technology of my universe is supposed to work (which is world building) or whether I write an entire plot and shoehorn it in because some people cannot grasp that film make up techniques got better in twenty years.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
> @starkaos said:
>
> Because it is the curse of being a Star Trek fanatic. They like to search for explanations on everything. Real life explanations are too boring when a more interesting explanation is far more fun to create. There was absolutely no reason to explain how transporters and warp drives work, but we have explanations for them.
Those are two entirely different things, though. It's a difference whether I explain how the technology of my universe is supposed to work (which is world building) or whether I write an entire plot and shoehorn it in because some people cannot grasp that film make up techniques got better in twenty years.
It was not necessary to do the augment virus thing at all, the ideal thing would have been to show a mix of TNG style Klingons along with the two more human/Vulcan looking types from TOS and mention that the Klingon Empire is indeed an empire and not just one planet with one race. In fact, if ENT did that it would have set a precedent for the Klingorcs of DSC to exist as well. The whole one race per empire thing for everything but the Federation is utterly ridiculous, but Paramount and CBS both seem to go for the most idiotic and convoluted explanations they can come up with for just about everything.
Why does everything need to be explained? That lead to the most terrible plots in Trek (augment virus, for instance).
When O'Brien wore an ensign pip because the prop department didn't make up the hollow pip yet he wasn't in some alternate reality, same when he wore Lt pips. He also didn't get promoted and demoted between scenes. Some things are just errors.
Because it is the curse of being a Star Trek fanatic. They like to search for explanations on everything. Real life explanations are too boring when a more interesting explanation is far more fun to create. There was absolutely no reason to explain how transporters and warp drives work, but we have explanations for them.
That's in part because of episodes where the heroes had to deal with "OMg our tech doesn't work" and there's an explanation of sorts as to why.
The "headcanon" of the person who came up with the idea pretty much defines canon actually, and it was Orci who came up with the loopback-and-split idea as the form of the reboot in the first place. And back in the day Kurtzman talked about the split and how time travel worked differently in that universe so it was not just Orci who considered the loop a spiral of sorts and not necessarily a straight-back linear one.
No it dosn't. Unless their headcanon makes it into the final product it's as canon as your headcanon.
Orci: They travel back to a alternate universe that is like but not like TOS. Debunked. They travel back to their own past.
Abrams: Compleat reboot. Debunked. He had no power to do that.
Pegg: The timeline changed both ways. Debunked, there is nothing in the past (Kelvin and Franklin) that indicates that and the future didn't change either as DSC aired after 09.
Kurtzman: An alternate timeline was created upon the destruction of the Kelvin.
Linderdorf: What's a Star Trek?
Only Kurtzman's head canon made it to screen and therefore is the only one that counts.
And what makes you think Orci's idea is "not supported by canon"? If you watch the movie it plays out just the way Orci said though other interpretations can be made (espicially since it was not a very consistent movie, pages and pages of plot holes and contradictions have been published about it).
The fact that they're in their own past and not an alternate past up until the Kelvin is destroyed.
And if you go by ENT, the plasma cannons that USS Kelvin was armed with along with phasers and photon torpedoes were considered obsolete a century before Narada dropped out of that hole in space, so why would a 23rd century ship waste power on them that could be better used for the not-obsolete phasers?
The Kelvin does not use plasma cannons, it used red phaser beams and blue Photon Torpedos.
Why is there no fixed chain of command like there was in The Cage and TOS, just arbitrary snap decisions of the captain about who is in command in his absence? The Kelvin was already in operation before the Narada showed up and it already had differences from known canon tech and procedures.
What the bloody hell is this gibberish? He gives command over to his first officer. Have you seen it? There is no procedural differences and even if there were Starfleet doesn't operate a particularly rigorous chain of command anyway or had you forgotten NCOs can be department heads?
So no procedural differences and no tech differences, anything else you want to make up?
We are actually saying pretty much the same thing here, the only difference is that I speculate on what form that loose unification could take based on some real quantum time theories.
I suppose I should have been more clear with that, the dialog was in TNG, not 2009, and in fact the series ender pretty much revolved around the idea of ripples in both directions.
I haven't seen AGT for a while. I'll not make things up about it like some do with 09, I'll go watch it instead.
So besides the obvious reason for the extensive amount of continuity errors in Star Trek, how would you explain them that makes sense in the Star Trek universe? The obvious reason is the boring reason. With the Parallels episode, we are told that there are hundreds of thousands of parallel universes that are extremely similar to each other. So we only assume that each episode is in the Prime Timeline. Then there is the fact that the Prime Timeline is constantly changed due to time travel. So the Prime Timeline in The Man Trap is not the same Prime Timeline as Nemesis.
What a ridiculous notion. What time travel took place in Space Seed for Spock and Kirk to give massivly different dates for the Eugenics Wars?
What we can assume is that continuity errors are not in-universe errors because to assume they are is one of the weirdest misunderstandings of how fictional systems work I've ever heard.
They don't resemble orcs in the slightest beyond having pointed ears. Some people have so much edge and so little point they could be used as chakram.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
they don't have pointed ears - to have pointed ears would require them to have ears AT ALL, and not just holes in their skull where ears would normally be
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The point about AGT is sorta true. That was caused by an 'anti-time' anomaly, and the whole situation was engineered by the Q Continuum to eliminate humanity as a threat. The only reason Picard won was because Q was against the idea and helped out. Also, technically not time travel.
uh...there is absolutely NOTHING whatsoever in AGT that even remotely points to that whole thing being a continuum plot to eliminate humanity - if they wanted to do that, any one Q could just snap their fingers and remove humans from existence, not use a human to bring an anomaly into existence that will not only prevent humans from evolving but prevent all OTHER life across the alpha and beta quadrants from evolving too
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
they don't have pointed ears - to have pointed ears would require them to have ears AT ALL, and not just holes in their skull where ears would normally be
Oh don't be ridiculous.
I hate the stupid melted look they've gone for but they clearly have ears. Now they've fixed the elongated skulls the melted ears is all they need to fix and most of them have hair in S2 so even that's less of an issue.
It really wasn't hard to find good images of the sides of their heads either, I just stuck 'Klingon' into Google then I didn't have to look like I'd not seen the show.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
uh...there is absolutely NOTHING whatsoever in AGT that even remotely points to that whole thing being a continuum plot to eliminate humanity - if they wanted to do that, any one Q could just snap their fingers and remove humans from existence, not use a human to bring an anomaly into existence that will not only prevent humans from evolving but prevent all OTHER life across the alpha and beta quadrants from evolving too
you don't use a nuke where a scalpel will do
"Q: The Continuum didn't think you had it in you, Picard.
[Snip a bunch of Q teasing Picard.]
Q: Well if it puts your mind at ease, you've saved humanity - once again.
Picard: Thank you.
Q: For what?
Picard: You had a hand in helping me get out of this.
Q: I was the one that got you into it - a Directive from the Continuum. The part about the helping hand, though... was my idea."
That is straight from the closing scenes (about 1hr 25mins in) of the episode. It certainly implies the Continuum intended to destroy humanity, since they didn't expect Picard to succeed in destroying the anomaly.
Q: You just don't get it, do you, Jean-Luc? The trial never ends. We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons. And for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realised the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
it was ALWAYS a test - never a preemptive strike
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Q: You just don't get it, do you, Jean-Luc? The trial never ends. We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons. And for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realised the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
it was ALWAYS a test - never a preemptive strike
"Q: The trial never ended, Captain. We never reached a verdict. But now we have. You're guilty.
Picard: Guilty of what?
Q: Of being inferior.
[Snip.]
Q: It's time to put an end to your trek through the stars - make way for more worthy species.
Picard: You're going to deny us travel through space?
Q: No, you obtuse piece of flotsam. You're to be denied existence. Humanity's fate has been sealed. You will be destroyed."
Around 40mins in. Q may have used it as a test, but that certainly does not appear to have been the intent of the Continuum.
Oh, boy. Why do Trekkies cognitively block out TNG episode "Parallels", which establishes in canon that there are an infinite number of parallel universes, with both linear time displacement/causation as well as inter-dimensional time displacement? It is canon that there is no canon, no prime timeline, and an infinite number of ways the scenarios of Trek look physically and play out, with the only constant being some basic personality qualities of the characters, which reinforces both TNG "where no One Has Gone Before" claim by The Traveller to Wesley that only some parts of the rational psyche are real, and that their thoughts form the basis of the multiverse; Q's statement to Picard in TNG "All Good Things" that studying existence itself, not physical measurements per universe, will lead to human transcendence; finally DS9 "Far Beyond The Stars" which establishes the events of Ben Sisko's life in a 24th century and Benny Russell's in a 20th century as mutually causing each other within the multiverse via the rational imagination. All of this links into the second TOS pilot where Samuel A. Peeples wrote that Gary Mitchell, upon transcending to a higher state of direct thought-controlled matter manipulation by crossing through an energy field around the galaxy built by the Preservers (as established in later TOS episodes and canon novels), reads Spinoza -- an enlightenment philosopher who taught that Thought was a fundamental Attribute of the Multiverse, within which everything thinkable, including any random reorganization of images within the human imagination, was in some sense real in some dimension within an infinite matrix. These ideas would influence the German Transcendentalist movement, which sought to find a phenomenological scientific root to subjective experience. Later in both TNG and DS9, the writers wrote several times in several episodes that a contributing philosophical factor to the bringing about of the enlightened age of the Federation was by the post-WW3 proliferation of Neo-Transcendantalism by fictional human philosopher Liam Dieghan. Ergo, it is canon that in the Trek universe, metaphysical Idealism is the case. Reality is directly influenced by the creative imagination, where the more rational the thinker, the greater the scope of its effects in space, time, and alternate realities. Hence, the Q, which are stand-ins for the script writers themselves, judging their characters and themselves as writers. This is a writers' joke. This is a philosophically-trained writers' in-joke. The writers of Star Trek have been essentially saying that Star Trek is a dream over which they and the fans have cooperative control like gods. That's what Idealism means. It's a joke, and it also illustrates a serious political point.
Q: You just don't get it, do you, Jean-Luc? The trial never ends. We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons. And for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realised the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
it was ALWAYS a test - never a preemptive strike
there's also the possibility it wasn't real and Picard was just hallucinating on Q-gas the whole time.
I actually hate AGT because it just soo... pointless.
Dear gods! That post is murder on the eyes, there's no paragraphs or line breaks and the colour is unreadable.
But no, it is not canon that 'there is no canon' or that there is 'no prime timeline'. I really can't decipher any more of that offensively coloured block of squiggles beyond that.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The "headcanon" of the person who came up with the idea pretty much defines canon actually, and it was Orci who came up with the loopback-and-split idea as the form of the reboot in the first place. And back in the day Kurtzman talked about the split and how time travel worked differently in that universe so it was not just Orci who considered the loop a spiral of sorts and not necessarily a straight-back linear one.
No it dosn't. Unless their headcanon makes it into the final product it's as canon as your headcanon.
Orci: They travel back to a alternate universe that is like but not like TOS. Debunked. They travel back to their own past.
Abrams: Compleat reboot. Debunked. He had no power to do that.
Pegg: The timeline changed both ways. Debunked, there is nothing in the past (Kelvin and Franklin) that indicates that and the future didn't change either as DSC aired after 09.
Kurtzman: An alternate timeline was created upon the destruction of the Kelvin.
Linderdorf: What's a Star Trek?
Only Kurtzman's head canon made it to screen and therefore is the only one that counts.
No, they all made it to screen, you just fail to see it. They purposely kept it vague enough to cover all those possibilities and more, in fact the whole point of the reboot was to clear the decks for anything they might want to write without having to worry about previous canon.
And what makes you think Orci's idea is "not supported by canon"? If you watch the movie it plays out just the way Orci said though other interpretations can be made (espicially since it was not a very consistent movie, pages and pages of plot holes and contradictions have been published about it).
The fact that they're in their own past and not an alternate past up until the Kelvin is destroyed.
And what makes you think they are in their own past? There is nothing to support your theory onscreen since the Kelvin was never even mentioned in Star Trek up to that point, much less seen. The same goes with the uniforms and equipment, none of them can be positively identified as being prime universe Federation instead of one of the others (in "Parallels" it took Worf quite a while to figure out that he was shifting around between parallels instead of having memory slips even when the tactical station was so different he could not figure out how to raise the shields for instance). They could have been showing one of the myriad of close alternates without any indication onscreen except odd looking uniforms and devices (which of course is what was on the screen).
Also, in TOS the Enterprise was a really big ship at 947 feet, yet the Kelvin was only thirty feet shorter than it, a ship that was bigger than a battlecruiser.
And if you go by ENT, the plasma cannons that USS Kelvin was armed with along with phasers and photon torpedoes were considered obsolete a century before Narada dropped out of that hole in space, so why would a 23rd century ship waste power on them that could be better used for the not-obsolete phasers?
The Kelvin does not use plasma cannons, it used red phaser beams and blue Photon Torpedos.
It used the plasma cannon SFX from ENT and they neither looked nor acted like photon torpedoes of any color. Also, they establish later that photon torpedoes are rather sizable, and still look nothing like what Kelvin fired. If they are in fact photon torpedoes then they are not a type seen in the other Treks, which does not help your theory any.
Why is there no fixed chain of command like there was in The Cage and TOS, just arbitrary snap decisions of the captain about who is in command in his absence? The Kelvin was already in operation before the Narada showed up and it already had differences from known canon tech and procedures.
What the bloody hell is this gibberish? He gives command over to his first officer. Have you seen it? There is no procedural differences and even if there were Starfleet doesn't operate a particularly rigorous chain of command anyway or had you forgotten NCOs can be department heads?
So no procedural differences and no tech differences, anything else you want to make up?
George Kirk may have been first officer when Robau put him in command, but James Kirk certainly was not when Pike put him in command of the Enterprise. The movie was full of chain of command breaks and other idiocy, including fist fights on the bridge.
They don't resemble orcs in the slightest beyond having pointed ears. Some people have so much edge and so little point they could be used as chakram.
They also did not resemble Klingons much either (and that goes for both physical and cultural resemblances) and that name is as good as any to quickly differentiate between what DSC calls Klingons and what every other series does. And before you point out the TOS ones were just as different, the augment virus nonsense from ENT links them to the TNG style Klingons (though as I pointed out they only needed to use the Klingon as Empire concept to make the weird virus angle unnecessary).
The "headcanon" of the person who came up with the idea pretty much defines canon actually, and it was Orci who came up with the loopback-and-split idea as the form of the reboot in the first place. And back in the day Kurtzman talked about the split and how time travel worked differently in that universe so it was not just Orci who considered the loop a spiral of sorts and not necessarily a straight-back linear one.
No it dosn't. Unless their headcanon makes it into the final product it's as canon as your headcanon.
Orci: They travel back to a alternate universe that is like but not like TOS. Debunked. They travel back to their own past.
Abrams: Compleat reboot. Debunked. He had no power to do that.
Pegg: The timeline changed both ways. Debunked, there is nothing in the past (Kelvin and Franklin) that indicates that and the future didn't change either as DSC aired after 09.
Kurtzman: An alternate timeline was created upon the destruction of the Kelvin.
Linderdorf: What's a Star Trek?
Only Kurtzman's head canon made it to screen and therefore is the only one that counts.
No, they all made it to screen, you just fail to see it. They purposely kept it vague enough to cover all those possibilities and more, in fact the whole point of the reboot was to clear the decks for anything they might want to write without having to worry about previous canon.
And what makes you think Orci's idea is "not supported by canon"? If you watch the movie it plays out just the way Orci said though other interpretations can be made (espicially since it was not a very consistent movie, pages and pages of plot holes and contradictions have been published about it).
The fact that they're in their own past and not an alternate past up until the Kelvin is destroyed.
And what makes you think they are in their own past? There is nothing to support your theory onscreen since the Kelvin was never even mentioned in Star Trek up to that point, much less seen. The same goes with the uniforms and equipment, none of them can be positively identified as being prime universe Federation instead of one of the others (in "Parallels" it took Worf quite a while to figure out that he was shifting around between parallels instead of having memory slips even when the tactical station was so different he could not figure out how to raise the shields for instance). They could have been showing one of the myriad of close alternates without any indication onscreen except odd looking uniforms and devices (which of course is what was on the screen).
Also, in TOS the Enterprise was a really big ship at 947 feet, yet the Kelvin was only thirty feet shorter than it, a ship that was bigger than a battlecruiser.
And if you go by ENT, the plasma cannons that USS Kelvin was armed with along with phasers and photon torpedoes were considered obsolete a century before Narada dropped out of that hole in space, so why would a 23rd century ship waste power on them that could be better used for the not-obsolete phasers?
The Kelvin does not use plasma cannons, it used red phaser beams and blue Photon Torpedos.
It used the plasma cannon SFX from ENT and they neither looked nor acted like photon torpedoes of any color. Also, they establish later that photon torpedoes are rather sizable, and still look nothing like what Kelvin fired. If they are in fact photon torpedoes then they are not a type seen in the other Treks, which does not help your theory any.
Why is there no fixed chain of command like there was in The Cage and TOS, just arbitrary snap decisions of the captain about who is in command in his absence? The Kelvin was already in operation before the Narada showed up and it already had differences from known canon tech and procedures.
What the bloody hell is this gibberish? He gives command over to his first officer. Have you seen it? There is no procedural differences and even if there were Starfleet doesn't operate a particularly rigorous chain of command anyway or had you forgotten NCOs can be department heads?
So no procedural differences and no tech differences, anything else you want to make up?
George Kirk may have been first officer when Robau put him in command, but James Kirk certainly was not when Pike put him in command of the Enterprise. The movie was full of chain of command breaks and other idiocy, including fist fights on the bridge.
They don't resemble orcs in the slightest beyond having pointed ears. Some people have so much edge and so little point they could be used as chakram.
They also did not resemble Klingons much either (and that goes for both physical and cultural resemblances) and that name is as good as any to quickly differentiate between what DSC calls Klingons and what every other series does. And before you point out the TOS ones were just as different, the augment virus nonsense from ENT links them to the TNG style Klingons (though as I pointed out they only needed to use the Klingon as Empire concept to make the weird virus angle unnecessary).
Forehead ridges, fangs, and a leather fetish presenting an honourable front before stabbing you in the back. Nope, they're exactly like every other Klingon in looks and culture.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I don't know Artan last I checked nothing else showed frigging Purple Klingons before discovery. Or had randomly smashed together bits that was called ship design. Or stupid random stuff like the sarcophagus thing.
Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Any where have I said that? All I have ever said is Changing the past changes the present. If temporal shielding didn't work against an event that occurred before the shielding was created, then there would be no point for the Temporal Integrity Commission from the 29th Century to exist. Temporal Shield was only shown in Voyager and it protected Voyager from Annorax modifying time by erasing civilizations from ever being created. Janeway dropped the temporal shielding so she wouldn't be able to remember the nightmare cause by the Annorax. So there could be some room in the Department of Temporal Investigations that has knowledge of every previous timeline since the temporal shielding was created. Which is exactly the case for the Department of Temporal Investigation novels.
You asked for a single point that shows even one instance where changing the past doesn't change the present. I gave it to you. Waving your hands and chanting "temporal shielding" doesn't invalidate the evidence.
So it proves that Sisko changed the present by changing the past even if it is an extremely minor change of him being Gabriel Bell at the Bell Riots instead of the original. AFAIK, the Department of Temporal Investigations is only present in Trials and Tribble-ations episode and there was no mention of Sisko being at the Bell Riots in that episode.
It is a given that the prime timeline and the Kelvin timeline both exist together, neither overwriting the other, because that was what was decided before the story was written in the first place and the story was written with that concept as its foundation. In some cases (like this one) canon cannot be served solely by what happens onscreen alone because while the story could not exist without the concept of the split it is actually not central enough to the actions of the plot to spend the time to fully flesh it out for the audience.
In fact, not only was it supposed to be a branch, the natural laws of the universe of that branch were supposed to be slightly different and makes the "go back and fix it" thing impossible according to Orci (which also shoots down the theory that Kelvin and DSC are directly connected since the whole Red Angel thing would be impossible in Kelvin). In fact, Orci said that it was not a prequel to TOS at all, it was a sequel to Nemesis where some of the characters end up in a place very similar to a pre-TOS that is not exactly their own past.
Most of the time travel stuff in Trek can actually be unified if the geometry of spacetime is not linear (like for instance the theory that time is an illusion and essentially everything really happens at once though we perceive it as a linear progression) and different methods of travel effect different aspects of it. In fact, there was some dialog where it was mentioned that changes in time could theoretically ripple in both directions at once (which could explain the massive differences in technology among other things).
Orci's headcanon is not supported by canon and can be ignored. Spock and Nero go back into Spock's own past in the year of his own birth, not the past of a similar Spock. That was Kurtzman's headcanon and the only one of the production staff of the trilogy (including Abrams' plan for a full reboot, and Peggs headcanon about ripples) headcanons that made it to actual canon.
No it couldn't. All, not most, all, of Treks Time Travel is unified in the laws of its own universe in that there's different forms of Time Travel with different rules that look, from the outside, a lot like what ever the plot demands.
There was no such dialogue and there is no massive differences in technology. The technology of the Kelvin is direct step up from the technology of the NX and Franklin, and direct step prior to Discovery which is, in turn, a direct step down from TWoK.
That's not a theory, that's barely a hypothesis and it's bloody stupid. Star Trek is a fictional universe that depends on narrative flow. If there is no flow and instead, noly individual puddles of narrative sprinkled everywhere then you've killed the whole point.
It's also in direct contradictory to the IP owner's intent so it's doubly stupid
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The "headcanon" of the person who came up with the idea pretty much defines canon actually, and it was Orci who came up with the loopback-and-split idea as the form of the reboot in the first place. And back in the day Kurtzman talked about the split and how time travel worked differently in that universe so it was not just Orci who considered the loop a spiral of sorts and not necessarily a straight-back linear one.
And what makes you think Orci's idea is "not supported by canon"? If you watch the movie it plays out just the way Orci said though other interpretations can be made (espicially since it was not a very consistent movie, pages and pages of plot holes and contradictions have been published about it).
And if you go by ENT, the plasma cannons that USS Kelvin was armed with along with phasers and photon torpedoes were considered obsolete a century before Narada dropped out of that hole in space, so why would a 23rd century ship waste power on them that could be better used for the not-obsolete phasers?
For that matter, why does Kelvin "warp" act like transwarp instead of the warp that was shown in every other Star Trek up until that time? Why is there no fixed chain of command like there was in The Cage and TOS, just arbitrary snap decisions of the captain about who is in command in his absence? The Kelvin was already in operation before the Narada showed up and it already had differences from known canon tech and procedures.
We are actually saying pretty much the same thing here, the only difference is that I speculate on what form that loose unification could take based on some real quantum time theories.
I suppose I should have been more clear with that, the dialog was in TNG, not 2009, and in fact the series ender pretty much revolved around the idea of ripples in both directions.
So besides the obvious reason for the extensive amount of continuity errors in Star Trek, how would you explain them that makes sense in the Star Trek universe? The obvious reason is the boring reason. With the Parallels episode, we are told that there are hundreds of thousands of parallel universes that are extremely similar to each other. So we only assume that each episode is in the Prime Timeline. Then there is the fact that the Prime Timeline is constantly changed due to time travel. So the Prime Timeline in The Man Trap is not the same Prime Timeline as Nemesis.
When O'Brien wore an ensign pip because the prop department didn't make up the hollow pip yet he wasn't in some alternate reality, same when he wore Lt pips. He also didn't get promoted and demoted between scenes. Some things are just errors.
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Because it is the curse of being a Star Trek fanatic. They like to search for explanations on everything. Real life explanations are too boring when a more interesting explanation is far more fun to create. There was absolutely no reason to explain how transporters and warp drives work, but we have explanations for them.
>
> Because it is the curse of being a Star Trek fanatic. They like to search for explanations on everything. Real life explanations are too boring when a more interesting explanation is far more fun to create. There was absolutely no reason to explain how transporters and warp drives work, but we have explanations for them.
Those are two entirely different things, though. It's a difference whether I explain how the technology of my universe is supposed to work (which is world building) or whether I write an entire plot and shoehorn it in because some people cannot grasp that film make up techniques got better in twenty years.
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It was not necessary to do the augment virus thing at all, the ideal thing would have been to show a mix of TNG style Klingons along with the two more human/Vulcan looking types from TOS and mention that the Klingon Empire is indeed an empire and not just one planet with one race. In fact, if ENT did that it would have set a precedent for the Klingorcs of DSC to exist as well. The whole one race per empire thing for everything but the Federation is utterly ridiculous, but Paramount and CBS both seem to go for the most idiotic and convoluted explanations they can come up with for just about everything.
My character Tsin'xing
No it dosn't. Unless their headcanon makes it into the final product it's as canon as your headcanon.
Only Kurtzman's head canon made it to screen and therefore is the only one that counts.
The fact that they're in their own past and not an alternate past up until the Kelvin is destroyed.
The Kelvin does not use plasma cannons, it used red phaser beams and blue Photon Torpedos.
Why does the TMP Conni summon the Bifrost?
What the bloody hell is this gibberish? He gives command over to his first officer. Have you seen it? There is no procedural differences and even if there were Starfleet doesn't operate a particularly rigorous chain of command anyway or had you forgotten NCOs can be department heads?
So no procedural differences and no tech differences, anything else you want to make up?
Whereas I use canon to draw conclusions.
I haven't seen AGT for a while. I'll not make things up about it like some do with 09, I'll go watch it instead.
What a ridiculous notion. What time travel took place in Space Seed for Spock and Kirk to give massivly different dates for the Eugenics Wars?
What we can assume is that continuity errors are not in-universe errors because to assume they are is one of the weirdest misunderstandings of how fictional systems work I've ever heard.
Klingons.
They don't resemble orcs in the slightest beyond having pointed ears. Some people have so much edge and so little point they could be used as chakram.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
But yeah, AGT was an act of Q.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
you don't use a nuke where a scalpel will do
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Oh don't be ridiculous.
I hate the stupid melted look they've gone for but they clearly have ears. Now they've fixed the elongated skulls the melted ears is all they need to fix and most of them have hair in S2 so even that's less of an issue.
It really wasn't hard to find good images of the sides of their heads either, I just stuck 'Klingon' into Google then I didn't have to look like I'd not seen the show.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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"Q: The Continuum didn't think you had it in you, Picard.
[Snip a bunch of Q teasing Picard.]
Q: Well if it puts your mind at ease, you've saved humanity - once again.
Picard: Thank you.
Q: For what?
Picard: You had a hand in helping me get out of this.
Q: I was the one that got you into it - a Directive from the Continuum. The part about the helping hand, though... was my idea."
That is straight from the closing scenes (about 1hr 25mins in) of the episode. It certainly implies the Continuum intended to destroy humanity, since they didn't expect Picard to succeed in destroying the anomaly.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
PICARD: When I realised the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
it was ALWAYS a test - never a preemptive strike
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
"Q: The trial never ended, Captain. We never reached a verdict. But now we have. You're guilty.
Picard: Guilty of what?
Q: Of being inferior.
[Snip.]
Q: It's time to put an end to your trek through the stars - make way for more worthy species.
Picard: You're going to deny us travel through space?
Q: No, you obtuse piece of flotsam. You're to be denied existence. Humanity's fate has been sealed. You will be destroyed."
Around 40mins in. Q may have used it as a test, but that certainly does not appear to have been the intent of the Continuum.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I actually hate AGT because it just soo... pointless.
My character Tsin'xing
But no, it is not canon that 'there is no canon' or that there is 'no prime timeline'. I really can't decipher any more of that offensively coloured block of squiggles beyond that.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
No, they all made it to screen, you just fail to see it. They purposely kept it vague enough to cover all those possibilities and more, in fact the whole point of the reboot was to clear the decks for anything they might want to write without having to worry about previous canon.
And what makes you think they are in their own past? There is nothing to support your theory onscreen since the Kelvin was never even mentioned in Star Trek up to that point, much less seen. The same goes with the uniforms and equipment, none of them can be positively identified as being prime universe Federation instead of one of the others (in "Parallels" it took Worf quite a while to figure out that he was shifting around between parallels instead of having memory slips even when the tactical station was so different he could not figure out how to raise the shields for instance). They could have been showing one of the myriad of close alternates without any indication onscreen except odd looking uniforms and devices (which of course is what was on the screen).
Also, in TOS the Enterprise was a really big ship at 947 feet, yet the Kelvin was only thirty feet shorter than it, a ship that was bigger than a battlecruiser.
It used the plasma cannon SFX from ENT and they neither looked nor acted like photon torpedoes of any color. Also, they establish later that photon torpedoes are rather sizable, and still look nothing like what Kelvin fired. If they are in fact photon torpedoes then they are not a type seen in the other Treks, which does not help your theory any.
It doesn't, you are just being silly. Having trouble trying to come up with a real reply to the transwarp question?
George Kirk may have been first officer when Robau put him in command, but James Kirk certainly was not when Pike put him in command of the Enterprise. The movie was full of chain of command breaks and other idiocy, including fist fights on the bridge.
They also did not resemble Klingons much either (and that goes for both physical and cultural resemblances) and that name is as good as any to quickly differentiate between what DSC calls Klingons and what every other series does. And before you point out the TOS ones were just as different, the augment virus nonsense from ENT links them to the TNG style Klingons (though as I pointed out they only needed to use the Klingon as Empire concept to make the weird virus angle unnecessary).
Forehead ridges, fangs, and a leather fetish presenting an honourable front before stabbing you in the back. Nope, they're exactly like every other Klingon in looks and culture.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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