The reason you are wrong is because the only factor that actually decides it is this.
What the IP owners say it is, just like any other IP on Earth. None of the rest matters one bit. It's the same as when Hunger Games fans said "Rue isn't supposed to be black". Same as when Rowling declared Dumbledore is LGBT. Just like in 1978 when people screamed "those aren't Klingons" .
All that matter is what is in the book or what is on screen not what the IP owner says in an interview. If an author doesn't bother telling that their character is part of the LGBT in their book, then it is not relevant to the story. Absolutely nothing was changed due to Dumbledore being outed in Rowling's interview after she was done with Harry Potter. However Dumbledore's relationship with Grindelwald in Fantastic Beasts: The Crime of Grindewald makes it an important part of the story. Rowling ruined what would have been an interesting reveal of Dumbledore's history by revealing it in an interview rather than a movie. It is always better to reveal relevant information in a book, TV Series, or movie rather than cheapen it by putting it in an interview.
The film, which is canon, states and shows the timeline diverged from the point of Nero's entry. You, not canon, state that it could be a alternate universe and not a divergent timeline.
Those are two conflicting views and CBS determine that the film is correct and that you are talking bollocks. That's all there is to it. I don't care if you change your mind or manage to convince anybody with your headcanon. It is incompatible with the film's explanation and wouldn't count even if it was compatible.
Your headcanon is wrong because the film overrules it. Abrams' headcanon is wrong because the existence of DSC overrules his idea that his new timeline would overwrite all Trek post 2233. Pegg's headcanon is wrong because 09 points out the point of divergence was 2233 not earlier. The broadcast material is all that matters. and it's clearly pointed out in dialogue and with Spock's photo and most likely in the upcoming PIC/PRD (whatever it's acronym turns out to be) where the point of divergence is.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
That's the problem with people not understanding what "exposition" is in the cinematic sense. Exposition dialogue establishes the rules for us, the audience, through the fourth wall. Exposition dialogue is not speculation or the character's opinion - those things are differently expressed within the medium.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That's the problem with people not understanding what "exposition" is in the cinematic sense. Exposition dialogue establishes the rules for us, the audience, through the fourth wall. Exposition dialogue is not speculation or the character's opinion - those things are differently expressed within the medium.
+1
Exposition is explaining the world to the audience. Take Ben Kenobi's dialogue about Luke's father during A New Hope for example. It was intended to give us the audience an idea of what the Star Wars galaxy was like before the Empire. It works within the story as well because Luke is written as being somewhat ignorant of his father (for obvious reasons), but they could have easily left it out and it wouldn't have affected the story at all. That's because it wasn't there for the story - it was there for the audience.
That's the problem with people not understanding what "exposition" is in the cinematic sense. Exposition dialogue establishes the rules for us, the audience, through the fourth wall. Exposition dialogue is not speculation or the character's opinion - those things are differently expressed within the medium.
+1
Exposition is explaining the world to the audience. Take Ben Kenobi's dialogue about Luke's father during A New Hope for example. It was intended to give us the audience an idea of what the Star Wars galaxy was like before the Empire. It works within the story as well because Luke is written as being somewhat ignorant of his father (for obvious reasons), but they could have easily left it out and it wouldn't have affected the story at all. That's because it wasn't there for the story - it was there for the audience.
Having a character do a long winded dissertation of something may or may not be genuine exposition though. This is a bit of a weird distinction to draw, for some people, but it's the cornerstone of the "unreliable narrator" trope.
Well, yes, Narada looks like eldritch horror too...
The Orville looks like the modern version reason of how the TOS Enterprise was a structural impossibility in the 60s rather than as an eldritch horror.
These two are not necessarily exclusive. After all, eldritch horrors are also invoking a feel of impossibility.
True, but eldritch horrors are supposed to invoke a sense of fear and/or disgust into those that see it. The Orville is just a cool futuristic starship that is currently not possible.
To you, as for me I think "kill it with fire!" every time I look at it.
The film, which is canon, states and shows the timeline diverged from the point of Nero's entry. You, not canon, state that it could be a alternate universe and not a divergent timeline.
Those are two conflicting views and CBS determine that the film is correct and that you are talking bollocks. That's all there is to it. I don't care if you change your mind or manage to convince anybody with your headcanon. It is incompatible with the film's explanation and wouldn't count even if it was compatible.
Your headcanon is wrong because the film overrules it. Abrams' headcanon is wrong because the existence of DSC overrules his idea that his new timeline would overwrite all Trek post 2233. Pegg's headcanon is wrong because 09 points out the point of divergence was 2233 not earlier. The broadcast material is all that matters. and it's clearly pointed out in dialogue and with Spock's photo and most likely in the upcoming PIC/PRD (whatever it's acronym turns out to be) where the point of divergence is.
Star Trek 2009 never used the established rules set by almost every Star Trek series to distinguish whether something is from another time (chroniton particles) or from another reality (quantum signature). Therefore, the only appropriate response is to not know how the Kelvin Timeline was created which has been my position for years not that one position is correct over the others. I am in the exact same position as the crew of the Enterprise while you seem to know exactly how it was created. The Enterprise crew has an enemy that says they are from the 24th Century, but the Enterprise crew does absolutely nothing to confirm whether Nero is from their 24th Century or another 24th Century that is extremely similar to their 24th Century.
Which brings me to the question I have asked before, how can you tell if someone is from 100 years in the future or from a parallel universe that looks like it is 100 years in the future that is 99.999999999% similar to your own universe without scanning for chroniton particles or quantum signatures. Absolutely nothing is changed in the story by Spock and Nero being from the future or from a parallel universe.
However, it has ramifications for the other time travel stories in Star Trek. Spock and Nero being from a parallel universe gives the writers more freedom and keeps the drama that is in most Star Trek time travel episodes. The Enterprise crew has to go back in time to fix the past to save their present. If Star Trek 2009 is right and the rest of Star Trek is wrong, then the present is not being saved by Spock and Kirk to go back to the 1930s to stop Bones from saving a woman, Picard to go to the 21st Century to stop the Borg from assimilating Earth, or the dilemma that the Defiant crew had by erasing their descendants from existence so they could get back to DS9. All of these Star Trek stories are ruined by the 'time travel' in Star Trek 2009.
There is absolutely nothing different between the 'time travel' in Star Trek 2009 and these examples of time travel in Star Trek so either it is pointless to save the present by fixing the past since the present doesn't need saving or Nero and Spock didn't travel back in time to their 2233, but a similar 2233.
This is the reason why I prefer the parallel universe explanation for Star Trek 2009, but still keep a neutral stance on whether Star Trek 2009 is about time travel or dimensional travel, all meaning in The City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact, and Children of Time is preserved while they become meaningless with Star Trek 2009 using time travel. So my only choice is either make these episodes lose any sense of meaning or keep the nature of the Kelvin Timeline ambiguous.
Star Trek 2009 never used the established rules set by almost every Star Trek series to distinguish whether something is from another time (chroniton particles) or from another reality (quantum signature).
Methods that were more available in the 24th Century, as in the 23rd it was less well known. I think Quantum Signatures were established in TNG.
As for Chroniton Particles... we don't know if they are created in ALL instances of Time Travel, or just artificial means such as a generated Temporal Rift. As far as we know, methods such as the slingshot maneuver, and a Red Matter created singularity interacting with a rather unusual Supernova, may not generate Chroniton Particles.
Both are not common knowlege in 2233 or the 2250s.
Star Trek 2009 never used the established rules set by almost every Star Trek series to distinguish whether something is from another time (chroniton particles) or from another reality (quantum signature).
Methods that were more available in the 24th Century, as in the 23rd it was less well known. I think Quantum Signatures were established in TNG.
As for Chroniton Particles... we don't know if they are created in ALL instances of Time Travel, or just artificial means such as a generated Temporal Rift. As far as we know, methods such as the slingshot maneuver, and a Red Matter created singularity interacting with a rather unusual Supernova, may not generate Chroniton Particles.
Both are not common knowlege in 2233 or the 2250s.
Archer was able to quantum date part of the Xindi weapon prototype to confirm it was from the future in 2153 though, and that was with a hand scanner. Saying that, it's reasonable to assume they could have analysed some of the Narada's debris off-screen, or checked Spock Prime's quantum signature etc when he went through a medical exam.
Star Trek 2009 never used the established rules set by almost every Star Trek series to distinguish whether something is from another time (chroniton particles) or from another reality (quantum signature).
Methods that were more available in the 24th Century, as in the 23rd it was less well known. I think Quantum Signatures were established in TNG.
As for Chroniton Particles... we don't know if they are created in ALL instances of Time Travel, or just artificial means such as a generated Temporal Rift. As far as we know, methods such as the slingshot maneuver, and a Red Matter created singularity interacting with a rather unusual Supernova, may not generate Chroniton Particles.
Both are not common knowlege in 2233 or the 2250s.
It was used in Discovery to show that Burnham was from a parallel universe to Empress Georgiou.
None of that is relevant. The only relevant factor is what the owner of the fictional material says. All of that is just wanking in the wind, useless and irrelevant to anything and anybody.
So being concerned about Star Trek 2009 destroying the dilemmas in time travel episodes is "just wanking in the wind, useless and irrelevant to anything and anybody"? Spock and Kirk didn't need to stop Bones from saving Edith Keeler and watching her die or the Defiant crew didn't need to worry about the extremely difficult decision of erasing their descendant's from existence. Without these dilemmas, then the episodes become meaningless resulting in our favorite characters being sociopathic characters rather than heroes making painful decisions. Personally, I rather preserve the meaning behind these episodes rather than be extremely callous by destroying the meaning to these episodes by saying "the only relevant factor is what the owner of the fictional material says."
Archer was able to quantum date part of the Xindi weapon prototype to confirm it was from the future in 2153 though, and that was with a hand scanner. Saying that, it's reasonable to assume they could have analysed some of the Narada's debris off-screen, or checked Spock Prime's quantum signature etc when he went through a medical exam.
Actually... I don't think he was doing so intentionally. In the process of scanning the recovered debris I think the scanners were flipping out over the fact that different parts were different ages, and the one part in particular basically caused a doubletake as the scanner didn't know how to identify how old that piece was.
Also in Enterprise, the very vocal position of the Vulcan Science Academy was that Time Travel was impossible. Something T'Pol stated quite often until she pretty much experienced it herself.
Star, I recommend reading more alt-history fiction. You might be amazed what impinges on what, even over the short term.
Might have to do that since it has been years since I have read alt-history fiction, but it seems to be ignored in Star Trek. Time travel is supposed to have far more of an effect than what is shown in Star Trek. Read a bunch of the Colonization series by Harry Turtledove years ago and the USA had asteroid mining in the 60s due to aliens invading during World War II if I remember correctly.
For the most part Star Trek has portrayed Time Travel as linear. What happens in the past affects the future.
ST2009 approaches it differently by branching off rather than altering the future.
Except when they didn't, like Kirk and co. becoming part of a predestination paradox after they stopped Gary Seven from preventing the launch of an orbital nuclear-weapons platform in 1967, as had happened in their history (or, for that matter, when Sisko had to become Gabriel Bell after Bell was killed trying to assist them, which would have prevented the Bell Riots from happening). Or when TNG:"Parallels" showed us multiple quantum realities branching out from various historical alterations, some seemingly minor (Worf coming third in a bat'leth tournament rather than winning, for instance). Basically, the way time travel works in Trek depends on the individual story being told, rather than any hard-and-fast rules.
Meanwhile, the alt-history of Trek caused by the Narada's destruction of the Kelvin gave us a much more militarized version of Starfleet, and one in which Section 31 hadn't essentially been gelded after the Control incident. They built bigger , stronger ships, more with violence in mind than exploration, and one in which Academy cadets could get into casual brawls with "townies" without serious repercussions (also, apparently, one in which Starfleet Academy and its shipyard were inexplicably placed in Iowa, rather than in San Francisco and orbit respectively). S31 wasn't brought down until after Adm. Marcus' attempt to provoke war with the Klingon Empire was exposed by the Enterprise crew, along with Marcus' black-ops battle cruiser, the Vengeance. The changes seem reasonable to me, given the sudden threat faced by the Federation after the Kelvin's destruction - something which hadn't threatened them in the Prime timeline.
Now, mind you, I personally disagree with the need to give us an alternate timeline for the new movies, rather than simply creating a new movie series based in a future version of the Prime line, but nobody asked me, so...
For the most part Star Trek has portrayed Time Travel as linear. What happens in the past affects the future.
ST2009 approaches it differently by branching off rather than altering the future.
Maybe it takes place in both an alternate timeline and universe? Like Nero changed the past in another universe? There are supposed to be multiple universes other than the mirror universe so it could be he just got sent to one vaguely like Prime trek
For the most part Star Trek has portrayed Time Travel as linear. What happens in the past affects the future.
ST2009 approaches it differently by branching off rather than altering the future.
And as I said in my previous post, there is nothing distinguishing the time travel in Star Trek 2009 between other instances of time travel so Star Trek 2009 has to follow the time travel rules established by Star Trek or the rest of Star Trek has to follow the time travel rules of Star Trek 2009. Even though it seems like Discovery has gone back to the standard Star Trek rules for time travel. To make Star Trek 2009 an exception would require someone like Q or Daniels using a technobabble explanation.
Star, let me reiterate - there are no rules of time travel established in Trek.Every episode (or movie) involving it has used its own rules. Either that, or you have to decide that everything that's happened in Trek since ST:IV is some sort of alternate universe, because by the so-called "hard and fast" rules you'd like to pretend exist McCoy and Scotty polluted the timeline something awful by giving the formula for transparent aluminum to a San Francisco materials scientist decades early. Not to mention what Kirk did by kidnapping two whales and a woman, then exposing the crew of a whaling ship to the existence of an alien spacecraft a good 80 years or so before First Contact.
TOS:"The City On the Edge of Forever" gave us a form of time travel that left the people near the Guardian alone, while changing the rest of the universe. TOS:"Tomorrow Is Yesterday" had the crew doing something that nearly changed history, but they were left untouched while making their choices. TNG:"Yesterday's Enterprise" showed that the moment the Ent-C hit that temporal anomaly, the entire universe changed, and the only one with a memory of how things were "supposed" to be was Guinan. TNG:"Time's Arrow" gave us a time-travel story where the changes didn't propagate immediately; by the "rules" of "Yesterday's Enterprise", Earth should have been under the control of the Devidians since the beginning of the 20th century, because they went back to then but the Enterprise crew had no clue that had happened until they found the 500-year-old head of Data buried under San Francisco.
And now we get into some of the more abstruse aspects of quantum physics. Since the math shows no reason why one outcome of a quantum-physical reaction should be preferable to another, some physicists hold that all possible reactions occur, each in its own quantum universe (the Many-Worlds interpretation). Most differences are so small as to make no difference at all - the one where you wore your grey slacks to work is fundamentally identical to the one where you wore your navy-blue slacks. Some would have larger differences, but probably not with any major impact outside a small system - the one where you got mad at your boss and dumped hot coffee on his head is going to be very different from the one where you didn't for you, but the rest of the world is unlikely to be changed. And some would be very different - the universe where JFK listened to his brother during the Cuban Missile Crisis was devastated by nuclear war in 1962.
TNG:"Parallels" uses the Many-Worlds version, where small changes to Worf's personal history were the only markers at first, growing to increasingly larger historical alterations as the episode proceeded (as well as showing us a number of other possibilities, including the one where the Ent-D was the last remnant of a Starfleet nearly destroyed by the Borg). ST:2009 also uses Many-Worlds, where the changes (and there would have been several) introduced by the Nerada created a new quantum universe with many differences from the original. (I don't buy that semi-mystical nonsense about how all these people would "just naturally" be drawn together into a single crew, but I adjust my Suspenders of Disbelief in order to let the story be told.)
The Temporal Cold War was just a mess, especially the ep where Archer and Daniels were stranded in the 31st century because Daniels' side had suddenly lost the war, but somehow Daniels and Archer were both insulated from this change (and Daniels' home base somehow existed in order to get bombed out by the Na'khul).
All the options are valid within their own storytelling framework (except maybe ENT), and nothing was ever established as the "official way Time Travel works in Trek".
Parallels has absolutely nothing to do with time travel. There can be a parallel universe that is in the 19th Century or 23rd Century while we are in the 21st Century, but it is still not time travel. Star Trek has always used one rule for time travel, changing the past changes the present until the heroes go back in time to fix it. There are a few dilemmas created by the heroes fixing the past that are meaningless if each instance of time travel creates a new timeline.
I think you're missing the point he's trying to make.
There are no set rules becuase we've seen multiple interpretations of time travel. It was never all one method. And as he pointed out, they were all handled differently as well.
How would they find Data's head in their own timeline if they only went to an alternate past that wasn't connected to their own? Why didn't everything change instantly the second the Dividians started hitting Earth in the 19th Century?
Also... Sela didn't exist before Yesterday's Enterprise.
There are no rules, and everything moves at the speed of PLOT.
If the story calls for a timeline to branch, it will branch. Over time that branch would develop into its own entity.
And you're ignoring the evidence that is being provided without providing a counter other than "because".
For the most part Star Trek has portrayed Time Travel as linear. What happens in the past affects the future.
ST2009 approaches it differently by branching off rather than altering the future.
Maybe it takes place in both an alternate timeline and universe? Like Nero changed the past in another universe? There are supposed to be multiple universes other than the mirror universe so it could be he just got sent to one vaguely like Prime trek
It's not. The past seen in BEY is ENT.
No matter how much headcanon starkaos attempts to pass off as actual rules of the shows, the fact remains, through expository dialogue, Spock (a man who can calculate time travel computations in his head) states that they have a point of divergence at the entry of Nero.
It's also abundantly clear that Prime Spock (proven by his photo of the TOS crew) has examined his surroundings enough to explain who Harrison is to Kirk. If he was now in an alternate past that would be a stupid thing to do.
These examples are the writers pointing out what is true and canonising it with statements and situations from and involving characters onscreen.
No amount of making up your own rules of time travel and demanding somebody else's fiction world adheres to them will change the fact that the Kelvin Timeline diverged only at the entry of Nero from the future and that the Prime Timeline continues to exist even after that divergence.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Actually, a lot of ordinarily very meticulous Trekkies don't seem to realize that the Kelvin Timeline movies are not only in an alternate reality, they are also prequels to the Original Series. JJ's Star Trek 2009 takes place in 2258, almost a decade before TOS; Prime Disco takes place at the exact same time as JJ Trek '09, but in the Prime universe: 2258. The Kelvin Timeline has a very young Kirk prevent the Klingon War depicted in Disco, and also has no evidence of Michael Burnham (yet). JJ Into Darkness takes place in 2259. Thus, Kelvin Pike is murdered by Khan less than 1 year after the adventures of Prime Disco Season 2 Pike, whereas Prime Pike is still alive by 2265 and likely for many years after under the advanced medical care of the Talosians.
tl:dr -- Just because the Kelvin Timeline sort of looks like TOS doesn't mean it takes place at the same time as TOS. TOS takes place between 2265-2269; the JJ films take place between 2255-2263. Star Trek Beyond is the only JJ film to reach the 2260s, but it's still 2 years before Prime Kirk ever takes command of the Enterprise. The JJ films are actually contemporaneous with Discovery.
Actually, a lot of ordinarily very meticulous Trekkies don't seem to realize that the Kelvin Timeline movies are not only in an alternate reality, they are also prequels to the Original Series. JJ's Star Trek 2009 takes place in 2258, almost a decade before TOS; Prime Disco takes place at the exact same time as JJ Trek '09, but in the Prime universe: 2258. The Kelvin Timeline has a very young Kirk prevent the Klingon War depicted in Disco, and also has no evidence of Michael Burnham (yet). JJ Into Darkness takes place in 2259. Thus, Kelvin Pike is murdered by Khan less than 1 year after the adventures of Prime Disco Season 2 Pike, whereas Prime Pike is still alive by 2265 and likely for many years after under the advanced medical care of the Talosians.
tl:dr -- Just because the Kelvin Timeline sort of looks like TOS doesn't mean it takes place at the same time as TOS. TOS takes place between 2265-2269; the JJ films take place between 2255-2263. Star Trek Beyond is the only JJ film to reach the 2260s, but it's still 2 years before Prime Kirk ever takes command of the Enterprise. The JJ films are actually contemporaneous with Discovery.
People don't even realise DSC is not TOS but is set a decade prior. They keep complaining about retconning TOS stuff or calling changes made in S2 of DSC 'reimaginings' of TOS stuff when they're actually only retconning The Cage and not TOS at all.
And the KT films are not JJ films. He did the first one, had very little to do with the second, and sod all to do with the third.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Artan, I have asked you a question that you have never bothered to answer. How can you tell if someone is from 100 years in the future or from a parallel universe that looks like it is 100 years in the future that is 99.999999999% similar to your own universe without scanning for chroniton particles or quantum signatures?
As far as the Prime Timeline existing after the Kelvin Timeline was created, there is no canonical evidence of that in Star Trek 2009 just from an interview that the Prime Timeline still exists. So the whole idea of a branched timeline and the Prime Timeline still exists is not present in Star Trek 2009, but from the interviews surrounding Star Trek 2009.
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed. Mr. Sulu, plot a course to the Laurentian system warp factor three.
Nothing in there that says anything about the original timeline being preserved or the Kelvin Timeline diverged from the Prime Timeline. So either we rely on what is shown on screen or we rely on what is said in interviews. The Picard series will provide evidence of the continuation of the Prime Timeline after the destruction of Romulus and Discovery has provided some evidence of it due to Burnham's mother's base is in the future and the Calypso Short Trek, but there is no evidence in Star Trek 2009.
I think you're missing the point he's trying to make.
There are no set rules becuase we've seen multiple interpretations of time travel. It was never all one method. And as he pointed out, they were all handled differently as well.
How would they find Data's head in their own timeline if they only went to an alternate past that wasn't connected to their own? Why didn't everything change instantly the second the Dividians started hitting Earth in the 19th Century?
Also... Sela didn't exist before Yesterday's Enterprise.
There are no rules, and everything moves at the speed of PLOT.
If the story calls for a timeline to branch, it will branch. Over time that branch would develop into its own entity.
And you're ignoring the evidence that is being provided without providing a counter other than "because".
Star Trek has only had one rule for time travel which I have mentioned numerous times. It doesn't matter if it is a predestination paradox or some villain changes the past, changing the past changes the present. With predestination paradoxes, the past is changed by someone not going into the past. Every time something is changed in the past in a time travel story for Star Trek, the present is changed in some manner. I can't recall a single episode where the past was changed and absolutely nothing changed in the present.
Nothing in there that says anything about the original timeline being preserved or the Kelvin Timeline diverged from the Prime Timeline. So either we rely on what is shown on screen or we rely on what is said in interviews. The Picard series will provide evidence of the continuation of the Prime Timeline after the destruction of Romulus and Discovery has provided some evidence of it due to Burnham's mother's base is in the future and the Calypso Short Trek, but there is no evidence in Star Trek 2009.
No evidence?
Prime Spock had this picture which was given to Kelvin Spock after he died in Beyond. If the Prime Timeline ceased to exist after the Kelvin Timeline branched off... that picture wouldn't exist, and Prime Spock would have had the memories of Kelvin Spock. Also in Into Darkness, Prime Spock still remembered Khan when Kelvin Spock asked him about it.
Nothing in there that says anything about the original timeline being preserved or the Kelvin Timeline diverged from the Prime Timeline. So either we rely on what is shown on screen or we rely on what is said in interviews. The Picard series will provide evidence of the continuation of the Prime Timeline after the destruction of Romulus and Discovery has provided some evidence of it due to Burnham's mother's base is in the future and the Calypso Short Trek, but there is no evidence in Star Trek 2009.
No evidence?
Prime Spock had this picture which was given to Kelvin Spock after he died in Beyond. If the Prime Timeline ceased to exist after the Kelvin Timeline branched off... that picture wouldn't exist, and Prime Spock would have had the memories of Kelvin Spock. Also in Into Darkness, Prime Spock still remembered Khan when Kelvin Spock asked him about it.
Ah the Back to the Future picture theory. If Prime Spock existed in the Kelvin Timeline, then any items that Spock brought with him would be preserved from the Prime Timeline being erased since if a picture was erased from existence due to the Prime Timeline being erased, then Prime Spock would have been erased from existence as well. It defeats the whole purpose of traveling back in time if the heroes can't bring the tools necessary to fix the timeline or remember that there is a timeline to fix. For whatever reason, the equipment that the time traveler brings with them and their memories are protected from their timeline being erased.
If a picture of the Enterprise crew during TMP era would be erased from existence due to the Prime Timeline being erased, then Kirk and Spock wouldn't have their uniform and equipment in The City on the Edge of Forever when Bones saved Edith Keeler's life and Picard wouldn't have had the Enterprise-E when the Borg assimilated Earth in the 21st Century. So a picture from the Prime Timeline is not evidence that the Prime Timeline has been preserved. The only evidence is Calypso, the new Picard series, and any other Star Trek series set after the destruction of Romulus.
If a picture of the Enterprise crew during TMP era would be erased from existence due to the Prime Timeline being erased, then Kirk and Spock wouldn't have their uniform and equipment in The City on the Edge of Forever when Bones saved Edith Keeler's life...
The Guardian of Forever shielded them, and NO ONE, even in the 24th and 25th Centuries knows how the Guardian works.
and Picard wouldn't have had the Enterprise-E when the Borg assimilated Earth in the 21st Century.
Enterprise was caught in the Sphere's temporal vortex and shielded from the changes.
And frankly... its pretty clear now that you're not interested in anything but your own interpretation of things and will disregard anything to the contrary, coming up with some excuse or another to come out on top.
Fact is, Star Trek has no established rules on Time Travel in any form, be it Manheim Effect, Temporal Loop, or Slingshot Maneuver.
There are no requirements of having to search for chroniton particles or quantum signatures in every era of Star Trek, even those set before they were even considered a thing (like in Enterprise).
Its been well established that the Kelvin Timeline branched off from the Prime, and the Prime still exists. Has been known for years. Approaching this from an ENTIRELY in-universe perspective is unrealistic.
Also a fact that Temporal Mechanics gives me a headache.
This is no longer a debate, its you proclaming to know all and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. And I'm done with it.
If a picture of the Enterprise crew during TMP era would be erased from existence due to the Prime Timeline being erased, then Kirk and Spock wouldn't have their uniform and equipment in The City on the Edge of Forever when Bones saved Edith Keeler's life...
The Guardian of Forever shielded them, and NO ONE, even in the 24th and 25th Centuries knows how the Guardian works.
and Picard wouldn't have had the Enterprise-E when the Borg assimilated Earth in the 21st Century.
Enterprise was caught in the Sphere's temporal vortex and shielded from the changes.
There are a few people that know how the Guardian works like Q so you can't use "NO ONE, even in the 24th and 25th Centuries knows how the Guardian works."
There is one major difference between the time travel in The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact and the time travel in Star Trek 2009. Spock was in the Black Hole when the Kelvin Timeline was created while Kirk's away team and Enterprise-E experienced their timeline being changed before they went back in time to fix it. Since Spock was protected by the Black Hole on his trip to the 23rd Century, it would protect the existence of a photograph and any other equipment from a timeline that might have been erased. Also, the Sphere's temporal vortex would only protect the Enterprise-E while it was in the 24th Century not while it was in the 21st Century. So as long as the heroes go to the past before the villain changes the past, then there is no need to be shielded by an advanced alien artifact, temporal vortex, or insert technobabble. It just gives them a major incentive to fix the past.
Fact is, Star Trek has no established rules on Time Travel in any form, be it Manheim Effect, Temporal Loop, or Slingshot Maneuver.
I will agree that there are no rules to time travel for Star Trek if you can give me one instance where changing the past doesn't change the present.
There are no requirements of having to search for chroniton particles or quantum signatures in every era of Star Trek, even those set before they were even considered a thing (like in Enterprise).
Quantum signatures and chroniton particles has been used since TNG to determine if something is related to a parallel universe or time travel. If Burnham was able to show that she was from a parallel universe to Empress Georgiou through a quantum signature, then the Enterprise crew in Star Trek 2009 could have used it to determine if Spock was from a parallel universe. After all, they are from about the same time even if they are from different alternate realities.
Its been well established that the Kelvin Timeline branched off from the Prime, and the Prime still exists. Has been known for years. Approaching this from an ENTIRELY in-universe perspective is unrealistic.
Also a fact that Temporal Mechanics gives me a headache.
Either you accept what is only shown on screen or what is said in an interview. Personally, I only accept what is shown on screen since the IP owner can change their minds or there is a new IP owner with a different idea of how their property is supposed to work. Interviews have stated that the Kelvin Timeline branched from the Prime Timeline and the Prime Universe is perfectly fine, but the IP owners have their own unique interpretation and there is no evidence of it in Star Trek 2009. All we can say based purely on what is show on screen is that Spock and Nero enter a black hole and ended up in a reality that may be their 23rd Century or is extremely similar to their 23rd Century. They could have traveled back in time, to a parallel universe, or back in time and a parallel universe.
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All that matter is what is in the book or what is on screen not what the IP owner says in an interview. If an author doesn't bother telling that their character is part of the LGBT in their book, then it is not relevant to the story. Absolutely nothing was changed due to Dumbledore being outed in Rowling's interview after she was done with Harry Potter. However Dumbledore's relationship with Grindelwald in Fantastic Beasts: The Crime of Grindewald makes it an important part of the story. Rowling ruined what would have been an interesting reveal of Dumbledore's history by revealing it in an interview rather than a movie. It is always better to reveal relevant information in a book, TV Series, or movie rather than cheapen it by putting it in an interview.
Those are two conflicting views and CBS determine that the film is correct and that you are talking bollocks. That's all there is to it. I don't care if you change your mind or manage to convince anybody with your headcanon. It is incompatible with the film's explanation and wouldn't count even if it was compatible.
Your headcanon is wrong because the film overrules it. Abrams' headcanon is wrong because the existence of DSC overrules his idea that his new timeline would overwrite all Trek post 2233. Pegg's headcanon is wrong because 09 points out the point of divergence was 2233 not earlier. The broadcast material is all that matters. and it's clearly pointed out in dialogue and with Spock's photo and most likely in the upcoming PIC/PRD (whatever it's acronym turns out to be) where the point of divergence is.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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+1
Exposition is explaining the world to the audience. Take Ben Kenobi's dialogue about Luke's father during A New Hope for example. It was intended to give us the audience an idea of what the Star Wars galaxy was like before the Empire. It works within the story as well because Luke is written as being somewhat ignorant of his father (for obvious reasons), but they could have easily left it out and it wouldn't have affected the story at all. That's because it wasn't there for the story - it was there for the audience.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
To you, as for me I think "kill it with fire!" every time I look at it.
My character Tsin'xing
Star Trek 2009 never used the established rules set by almost every Star Trek series to distinguish whether something is from another time (chroniton particles) or from another reality (quantum signature). Therefore, the only appropriate response is to not know how the Kelvin Timeline was created which has been my position for years not that one position is correct over the others. I am in the exact same position as the crew of the Enterprise while you seem to know exactly how it was created. The Enterprise crew has an enemy that says they are from the 24th Century, but the Enterprise crew does absolutely nothing to confirm whether Nero is from their 24th Century or another 24th Century that is extremely similar to their 24th Century.
Which brings me to the question I have asked before, how can you tell if someone is from 100 years in the future or from a parallel universe that looks like it is 100 years in the future that is 99.999999999% similar to your own universe without scanning for chroniton particles or quantum signatures. Absolutely nothing is changed in the story by Spock and Nero being from the future or from a parallel universe.
However, it has ramifications for the other time travel stories in Star Trek. Spock and Nero being from a parallel universe gives the writers more freedom and keeps the drama that is in most Star Trek time travel episodes. The Enterprise crew has to go back in time to fix the past to save their present. If Star Trek 2009 is right and the rest of Star Trek is wrong, then the present is not being saved by Spock and Kirk to go back to the 1930s to stop Bones from saving a woman, Picard to go to the 21st Century to stop the Borg from assimilating Earth, or the dilemma that the Defiant crew had by erasing their descendants from existence so they could get back to DS9. All of these Star Trek stories are ruined by the 'time travel' in Star Trek 2009.
There is absolutely nothing different between the 'time travel' in Star Trek 2009 and these examples of time travel in Star Trek so either it is pointless to save the present by fixing the past since the present doesn't need saving or Nero and Spock didn't travel back in time to their 2233, but a similar 2233.
This is the reason why I prefer the parallel universe explanation for Star Trek 2009, but still keep a neutral stance on whether Star Trek 2009 is about time travel or dimensional travel, all meaning in The City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact, and Children of Time is preserved while they become meaningless with Star Trek 2009 using time travel. So my only choice is either make these episodes lose any sense of meaning or keep the nature of the Kelvin Timeline ambiguous.
Methods that were more available in the 24th Century, as in the 23rd it was less well known. I think Quantum Signatures were established in TNG.
As for Chroniton Particles... we don't know if they are created in ALL instances of Time Travel, or just artificial means such as a generated Temporal Rift. As far as we know, methods such as the slingshot maneuver, and a Red Matter created singularity interacting with a rather unusual Supernova, may not generate Chroniton Particles.
Both are not common knowlege in 2233 or the 2250s.
Archer was able to quantum date part of the Xindi weapon prototype to confirm it was from the future in 2153 though, and that was with a hand scanner. Saying that, it's reasonable to assume they could have analysed some of the Narada's debris off-screen, or checked Spock Prime's quantum signature etc when he went through a medical exam.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
It was used in Discovery to show that Burnham was from a parallel universe to Empress Georgiou.
So being concerned about Star Trek 2009 destroying the dilemmas in time travel episodes is "just wanking in the wind, useless and irrelevant to anything and anybody"? Spock and Kirk didn't need to stop Bones from saving Edith Keeler and watching her die or the Defiant crew didn't need to worry about the extremely difficult decision of erasing their descendant's from existence. Without these dilemmas, then the episodes become meaningless resulting in our favorite characters being sociopathic characters rather than heroes making painful decisions. Personally, I rather preserve the meaning behind these episodes rather than be extremely callous by destroying the meaning to these episodes by saying "the only relevant factor is what the owner of the fictional material says."
Actually... I don't think he was doing so intentionally. In the process of scanning the recovered debris I think the scanners were flipping out over the fact that different parts were different ages, and the one part in particular basically caused a doubletake as the scanner didn't know how to identify how old that piece was.
Also in Enterprise, the very vocal position of the Vulcan Science Academy was that Time Travel was impossible. Something T'Pol stated quite often until she pretty much experienced it herself.
Might have to do that since it has been years since I have read alt-history fiction, but it seems to be ignored in Star Trek. Time travel is supposed to have far more of an effect than what is shown in Star Trek. Read a bunch of the Colonization series by Harry Turtledove years ago and the USA had asteroid mining in the 60s due to aliens invading during World War II if I remember correctly.
ST2009 approaches it differently by branching off rather than altering the future.
Meanwhile, the alt-history of Trek caused by the Narada's destruction of the Kelvin gave us a much more militarized version of Starfleet, and one in which Section 31 hadn't essentially been gelded after the Control incident. They built bigger , stronger ships, more with violence in mind than exploration, and one in which Academy cadets could get into casual brawls with "townies" without serious repercussions (also, apparently, one in which Starfleet Academy and its shipyard were inexplicably placed in Iowa, rather than in San Francisco and orbit respectively). S31 wasn't brought down until after Adm. Marcus' attempt to provoke war with the Klingon Empire was exposed by the Enterprise crew, along with Marcus' black-ops battle cruiser, the Vengeance. The changes seem reasonable to me, given the sudden threat faced by the Federation after the Kelvin's destruction - something which hadn't threatened them in the Prime timeline.
Now, mind you, I personally disagree with the need to give us an alternate timeline for the new movies, rather than simply creating a new movie series based in a future version of the Prime line, but nobody asked me, so...
Maybe it takes place in both an alternate timeline and universe? Like Nero changed the past in another universe? There are supposed to be multiple universes other than the mirror universe so it could be he just got sent to one vaguely like Prime trek
And as I said in my previous post, there is nothing distinguishing the time travel in Star Trek 2009 between other instances of time travel so Star Trek 2009 has to follow the time travel rules established by Star Trek or the rest of Star Trek has to follow the time travel rules of Star Trek 2009. Even though it seems like Discovery has gone back to the standard Star Trek rules for time travel. To make Star Trek 2009 an exception would require someone like Q or Daniels using a technobabble explanation.
TOS:"The City On the Edge of Forever" gave us a form of time travel that left the people near the Guardian alone, while changing the rest of the universe. TOS:"Tomorrow Is Yesterday" had the crew doing something that nearly changed history, but they were left untouched while making their choices. TNG:"Yesterday's Enterprise" showed that the moment the Ent-C hit that temporal anomaly, the entire universe changed, and the only one with a memory of how things were "supposed" to be was Guinan. TNG:"Time's Arrow" gave us a time-travel story where the changes didn't propagate immediately; by the "rules" of "Yesterday's Enterprise", Earth should have been under the control of the Devidians since the beginning of the 20th century, because they went back to then but the Enterprise crew had no clue that had happened until they found the 500-year-old head of Data buried under San Francisco.
And now we get into some of the more abstruse aspects of quantum physics. Since the math shows no reason why one outcome of a quantum-physical reaction should be preferable to another, some physicists hold that all possible reactions occur, each in its own quantum universe (the Many-Worlds interpretation). Most differences are so small as to make no difference at all - the one where you wore your grey slacks to work is fundamentally identical to the one where you wore your navy-blue slacks. Some would have larger differences, but probably not with any major impact outside a small system - the one where you got mad at your boss and dumped hot coffee on his head is going to be very different from the one where you didn't for you, but the rest of the world is unlikely to be changed. And some would be very different - the universe where JFK listened to his brother during the Cuban Missile Crisis was devastated by nuclear war in 1962.
TNG:"Parallels" uses the Many-Worlds version, where small changes to Worf's personal history were the only markers at first, growing to increasingly larger historical alterations as the episode proceeded (as well as showing us a number of other possibilities, including the one where the Ent-D was the last remnant of a Starfleet nearly destroyed by the Borg). ST:2009 also uses Many-Worlds, where the changes (and there would have been several) introduced by the Nerada created a new quantum universe with many differences from the original. (I don't buy that semi-mystical nonsense about how all these people would "just naturally" be drawn together into a single crew, but I adjust my Suspenders of Disbelief in order to let the story be told.)
The Temporal Cold War was just a mess, especially the ep where Archer and Daniels were stranded in the 31st century because Daniels' side had suddenly lost the war, but somehow Daniels and Archer were both insulated from this change (and Daniels' home base somehow existed in order to get bombed out by the Na'khul).
All the options are valid within their own storytelling framework (except maybe ENT), and nothing was ever established as the "official way Time Travel works in Trek".
There are no set rules becuase we've seen multiple interpretations of time travel. It was never all one method. And as he pointed out, they were all handled differently as well.
How would they find Data's head in their own timeline if they only went to an alternate past that wasn't connected to their own? Why didn't everything change instantly the second the Dividians started hitting Earth in the 19th Century?
Also... Sela didn't exist before Yesterday's Enterprise.
There are no rules, and everything moves at the speed of PLOT.
If the story calls for a timeline to branch, it will branch. Over time that branch would develop into its own entity.
And you're ignoring the evidence that is being provided without providing a counter other than "because".
It's not. The past seen in BEY is ENT.
No matter how much headcanon starkaos attempts to pass off as actual rules of the shows, the fact remains, through expository dialogue, Spock (a man who can calculate time travel computations in his head) states that they have a point of divergence at the entry of Nero.
It's also abundantly clear that Prime Spock (proven by his photo of the TOS crew) has examined his surroundings enough to explain who Harrison is to Kirk. If he was now in an alternate past that would be a stupid thing to do.
These examples are the writers pointing out what is true and canonising it with statements and situations from and involving characters onscreen.
No amount of making up your own rules of time travel and demanding somebody else's fiction world adheres to them will change the fact that the Kelvin Timeline diverged only at the entry of Nero from the future and that the Prime Timeline continues to exist even after that divergence.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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tl:dr -- Just because the Kelvin Timeline sort of looks like TOS doesn't mean it takes place at the same time as TOS. TOS takes place between 2265-2269; the JJ films take place between 2255-2263. Star Trek Beyond is the only JJ film to reach the 2260s, but it's still 2 years before Prime Kirk ever takes command of the Enterprise. The JJ films are actually contemporaneous with Discovery.
People don't even realise DSC is not TOS but is set a decade prior. They keep complaining about retconning TOS stuff or calling changes made in S2 of DSC 'reimaginings' of TOS stuff when they're actually only retconning The Cage and not TOS at all.
And the KT films are not JJ films. He did the first one, had very little to do with the second, and sod all to do with the third.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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As far as the Prime Timeline existing after the Kelvin Timeline was created, there is no canonical evidence of that in Star Trek 2009 just from an interview that the Prime Timeline still exists. So the whole idea of a branched timeline and the Prime Timeline still exists is not present in Star Trek 2009, but from the interviews surrounding Star Trek 2009.
Nothing in there that says anything about the original timeline being preserved or the Kelvin Timeline diverged from the Prime Timeline. So either we rely on what is shown on screen or we rely on what is said in interviews. The Picard series will provide evidence of the continuation of the Prime Timeline after the destruction of Romulus and Discovery has provided some evidence of it due to Burnham's mother's base is in the future and the Calypso Short Trek, but there is no evidence in Star Trek 2009.
Star Trek has only had one rule for time travel which I have mentioned numerous times. It doesn't matter if it is a predestination paradox or some villain changes the past, changing the past changes the present. With predestination paradoxes, the past is changed by someone not going into the past. Every time something is changed in the past in a time travel story for Star Trek, the present is changed in some manner. I can't recall a single episode where the past was changed and absolutely nothing changed in the present.
No evidence?
Prime Spock had this picture which was given to Kelvin Spock after he died in Beyond. If the Prime Timeline ceased to exist after the Kelvin Timeline branched off... that picture wouldn't exist, and Prime Spock would have had the memories of Kelvin Spock. Also in Into Darkness, Prime Spock still remembered Khan when Kelvin Spock asked him about it.
Ah the Back to the Future picture theory. If Prime Spock existed in the Kelvin Timeline, then any items that Spock brought with him would be preserved from the Prime Timeline being erased since if a picture was erased from existence due to the Prime Timeline being erased, then Prime Spock would have been erased from existence as well. It defeats the whole purpose of traveling back in time if the heroes can't bring the tools necessary to fix the timeline or remember that there is a timeline to fix. For whatever reason, the equipment that the time traveler brings with them and their memories are protected from their timeline being erased.
If a picture of the Enterprise crew during TMP era would be erased from existence due to the Prime Timeline being erased, then Kirk and Spock wouldn't have their uniform and equipment in The City on the Edge of Forever when Bones saved Edith Keeler's life and Picard wouldn't have had the Enterprise-E when the Borg assimilated Earth in the 21st Century. So a picture from the Prime Timeline is not evidence that the Prime Timeline has been preserved. The only evidence is Calypso, the new Picard series, and any other Star Trek series set after the destruction of Romulus.
Enterprise was caught in the Sphere's temporal vortex and shielded from the changes.
And frankly... its pretty clear now that you're not interested in anything but your own interpretation of things and will disregard anything to the contrary, coming up with some excuse or another to come out on top.
Fact is, Star Trek has no established rules on Time Travel in any form, be it Manheim Effect, Temporal Loop, or Slingshot Maneuver.
There are no requirements of having to search for chroniton particles or quantum signatures in every era of Star Trek, even those set before they were even considered a thing (like in Enterprise).
Its been well established that the Kelvin Timeline branched off from the Prime, and the Prime still exists. Has been known for years. Approaching this from an ENTIRELY in-universe perspective is unrealistic.
Also a fact that Temporal Mechanics gives me a headache.
This is no longer a debate, its you proclaming to know all and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. And I'm done with it.
There are a few people that know how the Guardian works like Q so you can't use "NO ONE, even in the 24th and 25th Centuries knows how the Guardian works."
There is one major difference between the time travel in The City on the Edge of Forever and First Contact and the time travel in Star Trek 2009. Spock was in the Black Hole when the Kelvin Timeline was created while Kirk's away team and Enterprise-E experienced their timeline being changed before they went back in time to fix it. Since Spock was protected by the Black Hole on his trip to the 23rd Century, it would protect the existence of a photograph and any other equipment from a timeline that might have been erased. Also, the Sphere's temporal vortex would only protect the Enterprise-E while it was in the 24th Century not while it was in the 21st Century. So as long as the heroes go to the past before the villain changes the past, then there is no need to be shielded by an advanced alien artifact, temporal vortex, or insert technobabble. It just gives them a major incentive to fix the past.
I will agree that there are no rules to time travel for Star Trek if you can give me one instance where changing the past doesn't change the present.
Quantum signatures and chroniton particles has been used since TNG to determine if something is related to a parallel universe or time travel. If Burnham was able to show that she was from a parallel universe to Empress Georgiou through a quantum signature, then the Enterprise crew in Star Trek 2009 could have used it to determine if Spock was from a parallel universe. After all, they are from about the same time even if they are from different alternate realities.
Either you accept what is only shown on screen or what is said in an interview. Personally, I only accept what is shown on screen since the IP owner can change their minds or there is a new IP owner with a different idea of how their property is supposed to work. Interviews have stated that the Kelvin Timeline branched from the Prime Timeline and the Prime Universe is perfectly fine, but the IP owners have their own unique interpretation and there is no evidence of it in Star Trek 2009. All we can say based purely on what is show on screen is that Spock and Nero enter a black hole and ended up in a reality that may be their 23rd Century or is extremely similar to their 23rd Century. They could have traveled back in time, to a parallel universe, or back in time and a parallel universe.