That just creates a new avenue for inflation. The economy has to be a closed system and right now it isn't. The way they wanted to gate production of GPL by limiting the amount you could gamble in Dabo was another reason why inflation is as bad as it is. If you want a EC sink, by all means let the masses gamble as much as they want! But GPL was dumped in favor of Lobi and with nothing of value to spend the GPL on, there was no incentive to sink EC into it. If GPL was what Lobi is there would be a LOT more people playing Dabo hoping to earn enough to buy those Lobi store items.
Perhaps you misunderstood my suggestions, as there's no means of creating more EC inflation by what I suggested. It does NOT add any new EC into the game.
The GPL suggestion was just tagged on to answer another problem (Lack of use for GPL), even though for many players tagging on a GPL cost in addition to the EC cost would still be trivial, it would at least add some value to GPL while not negatively impacting any of the other currencies.
The issue really isn't "inflation", IMO. There's a difference in how some seem to perceive "value". The "issue" is that some seem to be equating those magical in-game EC rewards with the Zen items sold for RL cash transactions and trying to bridge said gap. Why should items that required RL cash and are sold via the market be reduced inherently in "value" because someone else has horded "free" virtual cash in-game via grinding?
The "problem" was created when PWE/Cryptic made the change to allow Zen items to be sold/transferred from accounts to begin with, which effectively created a difference in "value" of EC. EC being a virtual game reward should have never been bridged by RL cash. That's why some continue to perceive "inflation".
RL cash will always trump in-game rewards. End of story.
It's much the same of some making pointless arguments of how their "time" is/isn't valued in a video game. If you enjoy it, play it- and if not, don't. It's not rocket science.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
I can't tell if nixboox is genuinely clueless about economics, or is being deliberately obtuse in order to troll this thread.
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I can't tell if nixboox is genuinely clueless about economics, or is being deliberately obtuse in order to troll this thread.
Either way, they've successfully derailed the thread which is supposed to be about creating EC sinks, i.e. ways to destroy EC by handing it over to Cryptic instead of other players.
I can't tell if nixboox is genuinely clueless about economics, or is being deliberately obtuse in order to troll this thread.
I won't even hazard a guess. Several people, including myself have tried to explain the difference between created EC and EC that is traded and it seems to go into one ear and out the other.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Yes, I've read the thread, which is why I'm sitting here baffled.
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Well a posting tax would be quite annoying. I don't always have massive amounts of ec and when i'm low and win a t6 ship from a lockbox(which i open enough to win one maybe every 5-6 months) i usually sell it. If i'm too low to pay a "tax" on 250-400 mil i'd be forced to sell it way below it's "worth". Now while you may be envisioning this as a good thing, it really isn't. Yes a few people might be forced to sell low, but the "space rich" wont. And chances are the items sold low will just be snapped up by someone who CAN afford to post it for higher.
It would in effect expand the EC owned by those already wealthy in EC while drastically cutting into the ec owned by the rest. The ways ec is generated (discarding items, or selling to vendors, or endeavors, or doffs) don't help a causal player get "space rich", unless they are willing to play with... sub-par equipment while it slowly builds up.
I hate to say it, but the biggest problem is(i think) that the ec cap..isn't. I thought it was 15mil for f2p and 1 bil for subs/c-store service/LTS, though the wikia says 2. Either there are lots of players with 2 bil ec stuck there( i assume this is a problem for the space rich) or they can go over it and then whats the point?
I think the best soultion I've seen so far is making lobi and dil space barbie available for lots of EC or a lobi-ec exchange. Maybe a dil-ec exchange but that would be another way to get "free" zen and i don't think they want that.
Sorry if this isn't as coherent as others posts...
Well a posting tax would be quite annoying. I don't always have massive amounts of ec and when i'm low and win a t6 ship from a lockbox(which i open enough to win one maybe every 5-6 months) i usually sell it. If i'm too low to pay a "tax" on 250-400 mil i'd be forced to sell it way below it's "worth". Now while you may be envisioning this as a good thing, it really isn't. Yes a few people might be forced to sell low, but the "space rich" wont. And chances are the items sold low will just be snapped up by someone who CAN afford to post it for higher.
Sorry if this isn't as coherent as others posts...
If there is only a tax on sale completion you need -0- EC to post, you just get a little less when something sells.
The only thing that will solve this problem is segregating Zen store items from the player market altogether, otherwise it's just more of the same and nothing is going to motivate people to get rid of their EC stockpiles because it's already essentially worthless in value when compared to Zen. What sort of "exclusive" EC items would they create or market in the game that wouldn't compete with Zen store items?
Think about it- why would they want to devalue Zen items when that's their bread and butter? They don't make their money off the people who play this game for free- they make it off people who buy Zen.
Remove the bridge between the two- and EC value can resolve itself. Either that- or they need to stop selling items in the Zen store outside of cosmetics to lend value to EC... but that train has already left the station.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,673Community Moderator
Yes, I've read the thread, which is why I'm sitting here baffled.
I'd have to say he's trolling at this point. Especially based on previous behavior in other threads where he provides a "solution" that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, then defends it with a stick.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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I hate to say it, but the biggest problem is(i think) that the ec cap..isn't. I thought it was 15mil for f2p and 1 bil for subs/c-store service/LTS, though the wikia says 2. Either there are lots of players with 2 bil ec stuck there( i assume this is a problem for the space rich) or they can go over it and then whats the point?
You're right, F2P EC cap starts off at 15m, but then for 500z a F2P can purchase the EC cap increase. That is a real cap. If you recieve ECs that go over the cap, you lose the extra ECs.
What people do is shunt their ECs to their account bank (which also has an EC cap, though I'm not sure what that cap is). And probably spreads their ECs among various toons to keep from going over their caps.
Edit: The wiki says the acct bank has a cap of 1b.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
I hate to say it, but the biggest problem is(i think) that the ec cap..isn't. I thought it was 15mil for f2p and 1 bil for subs/c-store service/LTS, though the wikia says 2. Either there are lots of players with 2 bil ec stuck there( i assume this is a problem for the space rich) or they can go over it and then whats the point?
You're right, F2P EC cap starts off at 15m, but then for 500z a F2P can purchase the EC cap increase. That is a real cap. If you recieve ECs that go over the cap, you lose the extra ECs.
What people do is shunt their ECs to their account bank (which also has an EC cap, though I'm not sure what that cap is). And probably spreads their ECs among various toons to keep from going over their caps.
Plus they also create a lot of "mule" accounts to transfer EC to avoid dealing directly with the cap. And since creating accounts costs nothing, they can also create a virtually infinite amount of them to shuffle EC/items. They use the market and price out items at exorbitant prices so no one else will buy them- then log onto alt accounts to transfer them.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
I have two accounts. A LTS account and a F2P. Neither is a mule account. I play both accounts as I see fit. Do I transfer stuff from one account to the other? Yes, through the Fleet bank since the things would be unbound. I also transfer ECs between accounts that way, only if one or the other account needs some for something.
I don't run my STO as a business. It's a game that I play my way and I don't worry about space-rich or min-maxing.
That said, my LTS main is quite capable of running Advanced even though he doesn't do the big DPS.
Back on track, the business-players are welcome to do their thing if that's their thing. We all do our own thing on this game.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Did Borticus actually give more details as to the issues that prompted the original linked twitter post? I suppose we can assume from that post that Cryptic believe there's too much EC coming into the game than going out. But that alone doesn't align with the many various comments here where posters are saying "X" won't fix the problem where the "problem" is what whatever the given poster thinks it is, and not necessarily what Cryptic think is the problem. So just wondering if I missed additional Cryptic comments on this, or I'm right in thinking people are just trying to attach their various pet peeves and issues to this call for ideas?
I don't like the sound of this "brainstorming" business. I sense a major EC nerf coming. Cryptic has been, historically, almost schizo when it comes to the issues surrounding EC.
Over the years, things that have been in-game that costs EC have slowly been removed over time. Then the vendor trash nerf because players were making too much EC from selling loot to vendors. And now this garbage.
For me, EC is the most critical currency in game for "day to day operations" on my characters. Consumables, commodities, fleet projects, rep projects, duty officer assignments, vendor items, the exchange.....you name it. And when you reach higher levels on a character, things can get pricey. And despite being the easiest currency in the game to get, it's far from being an issue of EC just falling from the sky for players, unless they play Wall Street Online and the Exchange is their in-game life rather than blasting bad guys to atoms.
You want so do something about EC because you think it's too much floating around? Fine. Push for Cryptic to roll back the clock. EC for the old low level ships. Return EC transwarp fees, even to mission starting points. Come up for a replacement for the Federation Outreach Program that we lost with the removal of the exploration clusters. Only allow EC betting in Dabo, and make GPL worth more of something to incentivise people to play Dabo for the currency exchange. Further increase the need for EC for day to day stuff, rather than nerfing player incomes in regular gameplay. Come up with more things to spend EC on besides "Whale Incorporated" (aka the Exchange), and what EC sinks there are now.
But that is only if you think there is a problem, which I do not. And I'm willing to be that any "solution" Cryptic comes up with to "fix" the EC "inflation problem" will not benefit the player, except for the scalpers, whales, and speculators who camp out at the Exchange all the freakin' time. Or, at minimum, they will lose the least.
The issue really isn't "inflation", IMO. There's a difference in how some seem to perceive "value". The "issue" is that some seem to be equating those magical in-game EC rewards with the Zen items sold for RL cash transactions and trying to bridge said gap. Why should items that required RL cash and are sold via the market be reduced inherently in "value" because someone else has horded "free" virtual cash in-game via grinding?
The "problem" was created when PWE/Cryptic made the change to allow Zen items to be sold/transferred from accounts to begin with, which effectively created a difference in "value" of EC. EC being a virtual game reward should have never been bridged by RL cash. That's why some continue to perceive "inflation".
RL cash will always trump in-game rewards. End of story.
It's much the same of some making pointless arguments of how their "time" is/isn't valued in a video game. If you enjoy it, play it- and if not, don't. It's not rocket science.
Yes again! You can't have an economy where you are able to dump unlimited resources into it without having a way of taking those resources out.
And that's where STO and EVE Online are very dissimilar.
In EVE Online, all resources are created and utilized by players- effectively creating a supply/demand economy which replenishes itself with players destroying and creating items. PLEX may be purchased and sold for ISK- and although it fluctuates somewhat, it's never going to equate to the ridiculous crevasse we now see in regard to Zen/EC disparity, because in STO the economy isn't supply/demand based- it's almost all "vanity" based. Nothing disappears or is effectively removed from the game, it just keeps getting introduced. The more people purchase Zen, the more items are introduced into the game and the more EC is devalued as a resource.
I don't see Cryptic removing the bridge, however- because then only people who are willing to spend RL cash would play- and the amount of players would dwindle to nothingness. Yes, it currently takes ridiculous amounts of EC and Dilithium to purchase T6 ships, and I just don't see it levelling out anytime soon through "EC sinks", because there's no garauntee anyone is going to utilize those EC sinks, nor is it going to somehow make EC only more "valued".
Personally, I have a single account, and it's an LTS. I spend RL cash on Zen if something appeals to me- but I don't blow $200-300 a month on lockbox gambling (more power to those who do), nor do I impulse purchase every new little thing that's introduced. I'm very responsible with my money and only spend discetionary income I'm willing to part with forever, as I know the "lifetime" of the game isn't infinite.
Cryptic has a balancing act on their hands- which they've been quite careless with in the past. When this game went F2P, a lot of things changed- but shooting themselves in the foot via Zen/EC/Dil conversion ability was the nail in the EC coffin and completely and effectively devalued anything that could be obtained through normal gameplay.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
Except that you don't seem to understand the basic concept and difference between creating EC and trading EC.
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Perhaps you misunderstood my suggestions, as there's no means of creating more EC inflation by what I suggested. It does NOT add any new EC into the game.
The GPL suggestion was just tagged on to answer another problem (Lack of use for GPL), even though for many players tagging on a GPL cost in addition to the EC cost would still be trivial, it would at least add some value to GPL while not negatively impacting any of the other currencies.
The "problem" was created when PWE/Cryptic made the change to allow Zen items to be sold/transferred from accounts to begin with, which effectively created a difference in "value" of EC. EC being a virtual game reward should have never been bridged by RL cash. That's why some continue to perceive "inflation".
RL cash will always trump in-game rewards. End of story.
It's much the same of some making pointless arguments of how their "time" is/isn't valued in a video game. If you enjoy it, play it- and if not, don't. It's not rocket science.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
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Either way, they've successfully derailed the thread which is supposed to be about creating EC sinks, i.e. ways to destroy EC by handing it over to Cryptic instead of other players.
I won't even hazard a guess. Several people, including myself have tried to explain the difference between created EC and EC that is traded and it seems to go into one ear and out the other.
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
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It would in effect expand the EC owned by those already wealthy in EC while drastically cutting into the ec owned by the rest. The ways ec is generated (discarding items, or selling to vendors, or endeavors, or doffs) don't help a causal player get "space rich", unless they are willing to play with... sub-par equipment while it slowly builds up.
I hate to say it, but the biggest problem is(i think) that the ec cap..isn't. I thought it was 15mil for f2p and 1 bil for subs/c-store service/LTS, though the wikia says 2. Either there are lots of players with 2 bil ec stuck there( i assume this is a problem for the space rich) or they can go over it and then whats the point?
I think the best soultion I've seen so far is making lobi and dil space barbie available for lots of EC or a lobi-ec exchange. Maybe a dil-ec exchange but that would be another way to get "free" zen and i don't think they want that.
Sorry if this isn't as coherent as others posts...
If there is only a tax on sale completion you need -0- EC to post, you just get a little less when something sells.
The only thing that will solve this problem is segregating Zen store items from the player market altogether, otherwise it's just more of the same and nothing is going to motivate people to get rid of their EC stockpiles because it's already essentially worthless in value when compared to Zen. What sort of "exclusive" EC items would they create or market in the game that wouldn't compete with Zen store items?
Think about it- why would they want to devalue Zen items when that's their bread and butter? They don't make their money off the people who play this game for free- they make it off people who buy Zen.
Remove the bridge between the two- and EC value can resolve itself. Either that- or they need to stop selling items in the Zen store outside of cosmetics to lend value to EC... but that train has already left the station.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
I'd have to say he's trolling at this point. Especially based on previous behavior in other threads where he provides a "solution" that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, then defends it with a stick.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
You're right, F2P EC cap starts off at 15m, but then for 500z a F2P can purchase the EC cap increase. That is a real cap. If you recieve ECs that go over the cap, you lose the extra ECs.
What people do is shunt their ECs to their account bank (which also has an EC cap, though I'm not sure what that cap is). And probably spreads their ECs among various toons to keep from going over their caps.
Edit: The wiki says the acct bank has a cap of 1b.
Plus they also create a lot of "mule" accounts to transfer EC to avoid dealing directly with the cap. And since creating accounts costs nothing, they can also create a virtually infinite amount of them to shuffle EC/items. They use the market and price out items at exorbitant prices so no one else will buy them- then log onto alt accounts to transfer them.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
I don't run my STO as a business. It's a game that I play my way and I don't worry about space-rich or min-maxing.
That said, my LTS main is quite capable of running Advanced even though he doesn't do the big DPS.
Back on track, the business-players are welcome to do their thing if that's their thing. We all do our own thing on this game.
Over the years, things that have been in-game that costs EC have slowly been removed over time. Then the vendor trash nerf because players were making too much EC from selling loot to vendors. And now this garbage.
For me, EC is the most critical currency in game for "day to day operations" on my characters. Consumables, commodities, fleet projects, rep projects, duty officer assignments, vendor items, the exchange.....you name it. And when you reach higher levels on a character, things can get pricey. And despite being the easiest currency in the game to get, it's far from being an issue of EC just falling from the sky for players, unless they play Wall Street Online and the Exchange is their in-game life rather than blasting bad guys to atoms.
You want so do something about EC because you think it's too much floating around? Fine. Push for Cryptic to roll back the clock. EC for the old low level ships. Return EC transwarp fees, even to mission starting points. Come up for a replacement for the Federation Outreach Program that we lost with the removal of the exploration clusters. Only allow EC betting in Dabo, and make GPL worth more of something to incentivise people to play Dabo for the currency exchange. Further increase the need for EC for day to day stuff, rather than nerfing player incomes in regular gameplay. Come up with more things to spend EC on besides "Whale Incorporated" (aka the Exchange), and what EC sinks there are now.
But that is only if you think there is a problem, which I do not. And I'm willing to be that any "solution" Cryptic comes up with to "fix" the EC "inflation problem" will not benefit the player, except for the scalpers, whales, and speculators who camp out at the Exchange all the freakin' time. Or, at minimum, they will lose the least.
Peace. Out.
And that's where STO and EVE Online are very dissimilar.
In EVE Online, all resources are created and utilized by players- effectively creating a supply/demand economy which replenishes itself with players destroying and creating items. PLEX may be purchased and sold for ISK- and although it fluctuates somewhat, it's never going to equate to the ridiculous crevasse we now see in regard to Zen/EC disparity, because in STO the economy isn't supply/demand based- it's almost all "vanity" based. Nothing disappears or is effectively removed from the game, it just keeps getting introduced. The more people purchase Zen, the more items are introduced into the game and the more EC is devalued as a resource.
I don't see Cryptic removing the bridge, however- because then only people who are willing to spend RL cash would play- and the amount of players would dwindle to nothingness. Yes, it currently takes ridiculous amounts of EC and Dilithium to purchase T6 ships, and I just don't see it levelling out anytime soon through "EC sinks", because there's no garauntee anyone is going to utilize those EC sinks, nor is it going to somehow make EC only more "valued".
Personally, I have a single account, and it's an LTS. I spend RL cash on Zen if something appeals to me- but I don't blow $200-300 a month on lockbox gambling (more power to those who do), nor do I impulse purchase every new little thing that's introduced. I'm very responsible with my money and only spend discetionary income I'm willing to part with forever, as I know the "lifetime" of the game isn't infinite.
Cryptic has a balancing act on their hands- which they've been quite careless with in the past. When this game went F2P, a lot of things changed- but shooting themselves in the foot via Zen/EC/Dil conversion ability was the nail in the EC coffin and completely and effectively devalued anything that could be obtained through normal gameplay.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
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