Speaking of the No-Win Scenario, you know what could be nice as an event?
A real No-Win Scenario that doesn't involve keeping a stupid, lying ship captain who says they've lost all power yet still have enough power to rush towards the enemy, but instead a CYOA with multiple choices after multiple choices with some quick texts and comabt action, depending on your choice. No matter what you choose, you lose, but at least, you get to choose a different path every day and see how badly and hilariously you can fail an attempt, instead of "shoot, shoot shoot, shoot, shoot, heal, shoot, shoot, shoot, heal, shoot, shoot, shoot".
A lot of the endeavor rewards I was getting so far were mediocre with like 50k ec and many white and green r&d materials.
Like existing endeavors. You want these to become a dominant force in STO through rewards which exceed other gameplay activities? No, keep it light and fold it into the ecosystem.
No, I am complaining that it was giving me that same reward too many times, I feel it wasn't giving me enough good rewards that doesn't mean I think it should always be good rewards.
Some endeavors are much more time consuming or resource needing than others, and when those give you less for the higher effort they don't seem worth doing.
Scaling endeavors per time investment (playing to min-max time optimization) probably isn't in the picture here, namely because it requires precise quantification on how much effort completing an endeavor takes which would restrict it from certain activities which don't easily fall within those parameters.
Ex. Foundry. The reward is granted once you start the mission but completing it in good faith can take considerably longer than other activities. The system has no way of registering that, so to maintain consistency sufficient to appease a mindset hell bent on optimization it would probably have to be excluded (or else forever fail to provide adequate rewards for what the player thinks they should be getting.) And certain endeavors will take more or less time depending on how you're and what your build is. Ex. healing. A glass cannon throwing itself into combat is going to work through that much more rapidly than an effective tanking (with damage resistance) or control build. And factor in things like travel time to "easy" endeavors like the Nimbus dance competition could take considerably longer for someone to complete than an "intensive" endeavor which someone happens to have the right build for and found a quick match in the right TFO.
Now you might imagine some kind of system that tracks how long it takes you to complete and scales things accordingly but that's subject for right abuse simply in waiting the full length of the endeavor before completing it. Categorical scaling of rewards? That's stuffed by all of the above, there's only a few endeavors (ex. those involving the academies) which could be precisely categorized as taking less work than others (the one and dones versus the prisoner/tribble doff assignments) but across the full range of endeavors that categorization is going to get very arbitrary and leave very comparable endeavors (ex. those involved with gameplay) with differing rewards for the effort put in by some players. Ie. it'll be incorporating your complaint as part of it's design, rather than it being an incidental and random effect of a system which isn't trying to provide consistent reward/effort ratios.
Basically the simplified system we have right now is just fine and the endeavors by their very nature aren't designed to be an end-all factor which independently justifies why you should complete any given endeavor activity (most simply because of their randomization.) They nudge you towards things you could be doing on your own with the promise of a little something (unquantifiable), giving you an excuse to try something which you might not have considered in that moment. They are suggestions playing to your inclinations. If that motivation isn't there already, then heavier rewards that can be accurately judged according to likely input aren't going to do anything more than adjust your precise path through min-max grinding. Ie. it's just going to be one arbitrary gameplay choice versus another with only the precise amount of dil/ec/xp/mats registering in your experience. Catering to that mindset won't ultimately improve how the system is working (momentarily pulling players out of their habits with rewards that both play to and yet confound the skinner box mentality) or what players get out of it (in more than a minimally materialistic way.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
“Personal Endeavors were designed to give small objectives when you log on, but nothing so overwhelming that you weren’t able to do the other things you wanted to do with your time in Star Trek Online. Examples of Personal Endeavors could be as simple as doing damage of a certain type, or going to a specific Battlezone to defeat a particular enemy.”
Then it’s not an endeavor, you just described the opposite to what an endeavor is. An endeavor is to exert oneself to try hard to achieve something, to take an undertaking especially when sustained over a period of time. It shouldn’t be a small task and it shouldn’t be easy. If you can complete something by accident without even doing anything like you can in the current endeavor system then it’s not a real endeavor. Using words like small objective, not overwhelming, simple is the opposite of what endeavor tasks are.
One of the biggest player complaints about the current endeavor system was the tasks are too small and too easy which mean the feeling of accomplishment was zero. We need real endeavors, real challengers. STO is already over packed with easy everyday content. We don’t need more, what we are lacking is the real end game challenging content which is worse now than years ago. Raids and real endeavor style content . This type of content provides a far more rewarding and accomplishment feel to it once completed. My personal feeling is STO is swinging too far into the easy/causal content and too far away from the rewarding challenging content that leaves a feeling of accomplishment. A far more healthy approach is to have a mix of both to not only attract a wider amount of player but to keep them longer.
Don’t get me wrong the overall idea is great and I am happy to see something like this added into the game. But I am worried you are making it to easy. All this easy content is not rewarding in that you don't feel any sense of accomplishment for doing it. Doing a real endeavor should feel challenging and rewarding once completed. All this causal content and dumbing everything down is taking away the accomplishment/rewarding feel of playing Star Trek Online.
I disagree. Certainly some are far easier and more doable than others, but honestly, I haven't had the time to pursue them.
Since 'Endeavors' was introduced I think I only completed like three of them, as I was doing the content I had wanted/planned to do anyway. It was a nice bonus.
As it is the game has more than enough 'grind' and it does not, in my humble opinion, need any more grind.
IF they decide to add more grind/challenge to satisfy the appetites of those who find the various grinds and challenges 'too easy', then let them do so. But make it an optional system, so the casual players don't get hammered.
Everyone should be able to enjoy the game the way they want & like.
Who cares? They're not going to change the system to accommodate a quibble like this, especially when there are so many linguistic faux pas that have been in the game for MUCH longer that they're never going to address. [snipped]
Some players care. Not so much about the meaning of the word but the fact the content is out of touch with what a lot of players want. The core of the feedback is not about the word meaning... [snipped]
The meaning of the word is the complaint I was specifically referring to, however. There are FAR more important game bugs to address and potential improvements to be made. The meaning of the word "Endeavor" is a pointless complaint to raise, at this juncture.
So the first day's Personal Endeavors were Heal 3000 Shield (Ground), Kill 20 Gorn on Nimbus III, and cause 500,000 Kinetic Damage (Space).
I ran Defense of Starbase 1, Crystalline Cataclysm, and started one System Patrol and got 500,000 and the Reward. Reward was the same number of items we are used to with the old Daily Endeavors (various Dilitium and EC awards, a Marks Choice Box, and Materials Packs).
The Gorn one awarded a Marks Choice Box and some EC.
The Ground Shield Heal just awarded some EC.
Where do you see these Points for Unlocks?
I saw there was a Universal one - do TFO Binary Circuit. I'll skip that .
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
1. Defeat Voth in the Dyson Sphere (Easy)
2. Defeat Tholian Ships in Space (Medium)
3. Defeat Undine Ships in Space (Hard.)
I did one run of the Undine Zone and that completed #1 and #3 in short order.
For the Tholian one I started 'Stormbound' and completed it in about 30 seconds. I didn't need the actual mission so I just warped out and dropped it.
I realize that comparatively, I got a very easy one but even if the requirements had been more time consuming I would still be happy with the system overall.
I have 2 days to complete this and it's account wide.. so I consider that more then fair. My concern was that the Personal Endeavors were going to be 'per character' and want me to accomplish these goal on all of my alts which would have been tedious to put it mildly.
Having 2 days to complete 3 tasks account wide that give me account wide bonuses is a system I personally find to be more then fair. I like this system.
It would be nice if this personal endeavor system could be upgraded to reward (additional) time investment as well as completing different tasks. Every personal endeavor could be repeatable, with with endeavor XP cut in half with every repetition. For example:
Complete Iconian TFOs
1st time -> 8000 XP
2nd time -> 4000 XP
3rd time -> 2000 XP
and so on..
Power creep coated with a thin veneer of grind for rewards won't be that good because the RNG loves to spit out tons and tons of R&D materials noone will ever really get around to using because the R&D system is a timesinky thing that has been largely neglected.
Oh and half my toons that are 60+ aren't even seeing the personal endeavour listing. And yes I have moved the UI thing out from under the missions list so it can be seen.
You're lucky... I got "Complete Borg TFO (non red alert)" so I did Borg Disconnected and it didn't count. Next day I got "Complete Lukari TFO (non red alert) and I did Dranuur Gauntlet. Didn't count. Either the TFO stuff is glitchy or they need to specify which TFOs they consider to qualify rather than being vague like that.
You're lucky... I got "Complete Borg TFO (non red alert)" so I did Borg Disconnected and it didn't count. Next day I got "Complete Lukari TFO (non red alert) and I did Dranuur Gauntlet. Didn't count. Either the TFO stuff is glitchy or they need to specify which TFOs they consider to qualify rather than being vague like that.
In the Endeavor tab they do specify how and where you can complete a certain task. For example, when I look at my "Complete Iconian TFOs" task, it says: "Brotherhood of the Sword, Bug Hunt, Gateway to Grethor, Herald Sphere".
Still. Dranuur Gauntlet should count as a Lukari TFO. It might indeed be bugged.
In the Endeavor tab they do specify how and where you can complete a certain task. For example, when I look at my "Complete Iconian TFOs" task, it says: "Brotherhood of the Sword, Bug Hunt, Gateway to Grethor, Herald Sphere".
Ah, I found what you're referencing - it does indeed mention which queues will count for the endeavor. That'll be useful when it actually works for me. It may be me-specific... there are other things that just don't ever work for me, like the lobi-based buying of vouchers for events. The option never appears in my lobi store or anywhere.. works for everyone else though.
Just like the old Endeavors, so far, these new ones' pay-outs seem like worth doing if easy & along the way but not worth the hassle of focusing on them only unless one has nothing else to do. I'll give it a week or two like I did the Uni Endeavors but they slowly became not worth it neither unless easy or along the way to my whatever goal.
do Physical Dmg in Space... tool tip says Sci abilities like Grav Well does Physical Dmg LOL. good luck with that.
Yeah, I just drew this one as well.
My guess is that it was supposed to be a ground objective since as far as I know there is no way to deal Physical Damage in space. Guess I am staring that this one until tomorrow.
You've never put on an EV Suit, exited the airlock, and attacked enemy ships with a Bat'leth? Ha!
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
do Physical Dmg in Space... tool tip says Sci abilities like Grav Well does Physical Dmg LOL. good luck with that.
Yeah, I just drew this one as well.
My guess is that it was supposed to be a ground objective since as far as I know there is no way to deal Physical Damage in space. Guess I am staring that this one until tomorrow.
it can be done... but the tool tip is totally fake news... if you have T5 rep in Temporal... use it's ability. or ships with special gimicks can do it as well.
edit: took me hours while grinding in a battlezone to notice it moving... since I dont always spam my T5 abilities. I swapped in Gravity Well & Tyken's Rift since tool tip said Science...
So the Endeavor Personal Tray thingy tends to disappear completely after completing all Endeavors. I got a Re-Roll token, but no way to see since the all completed Endeavors removed the Personal Tray to even click for the User interface... Is there a Shortcut key to access the actual User interface after completion to see how much Endeavor XP one has achieved after completing all Endeavors?
All in all, I like that they are now account wide progression vs the old version which depended if a single character completed the needed 3 Day Endeavor. The Additional Perks are nice from what I could tell for Ground and Space.
Oy....someone pointed that out to me after I posted this in game. Sad I didn't see it, but really wish it was it's own button on the minimap gui tray….almost like they should consider just adding another row of buttons.... I mean the Dil exchange, Endeavor, Visit Bridges, and PVP (though why is that separate anymore?) ….all justify their own button by now.
Oy....someone pointed that out to me after I posted this in game. Sad I didn't see it, but really wish it was it's own button on the minimap gui tray….almost like they should consider just adding another row of buttons.... I mean the Dil exchange, Endeavor, Visit Bridges, and PVP (though why is that separate anymore?) ….all justify their own button by now.
You're lucky... I got "Complete Borg TFO (non red alert)" so I did Borg Disconnected and it didn't count. Next day I got "Complete Lukari TFO (non red alert) and I did Dranuur Gauntlet. Didn't count. Either the TFO stuff is glitchy or they need to specify which TFOs they consider to qualify rather than being vague like that.
It turns out it's a display bug that they're slated to fix in the next patch. Any "Complete <whatever> TFO" is actually requires 3 not 1 as it claims... until you complete 3 it says 0/1
Comments
A real No-Win Scenario that doesn't involve keeping a stupid, lying ship captain who says they've lost all power yet still have enough power to rush towards the enemy, but instead a CYOA with multiple choices after multiple choices with some quick texts and comabt action, depending on your choice. No matter what you choose, you lose, but at least, you get to choose a different path every day and see how badly and hilariously you can fail an attempt, instead of "shoot, shoot shoot, shoot, shoot, heal, shoot, shoot, shoot, heal, shoot, shoot, shoot".
Scaling endeavors per time investment (playing to min-max time optimization) probably isn't in the picture here, namely because it requires precise quantification on how much effort completing an endeavor takes which would restrict it from certain activities which don't easily fall within those parameters.
Ex. Foundry. The reward is granted once you start the mission but completing it in good faith can take considerably longer than other activities. The system has no way of registering that, so to maintain consistency sufficient to appease a mindset hell bent on optimization it would probably have to be excluded (or else forever fail to provide adequate rewards for what the player thinks they should be getting.) And certain endeavors will take more or less time depending on how you're and what your build is. Ex. healing. A glass cannon throwing itself into combat is going to work through that much more rapidly than an effective tanking (with damage resistance) or control build. And factor in things like travel time to "easy" endeavors like the Nimbus dance competition could take considerably longer for someone to complete than an "intensive" endeavor which someone happens to have the right build for and found a quick match in the right TFO.
Now you might imagine some kind of system that tracks how long it takes you to complete and scales things accordingly but that's subject for right abuse simply in waiting the full length of the endeavor before completing it. Categorical scaling of rewards? That's stuffed by all of the above, there's only a few endeavors (ex. those involving the academies) which could be precisely categorized as taking less work than others (the one and dones versus the prisoner/tribble doff assignments) but across the full range of endeavors that categorization is going to get very arbitrary and leave very comparable endeavors (ex. those involved with gameplay) with differing rewards for the effort put in by some players. Ie. it'll be incorporating your complaint as part of it's design, rather than it being an incidental and random effect of a system which isn't trying to provide consistent reward/effort ratios.
Basically the simplified system we have right now is just fine and the endeavors by their very nature aren't designed to be an end-all factor which independently justifies why you should complete any given endeavor activity (most simply because of their randomization.) They nudge you towards things you could be doing on your own with the promise of a little something (unquantifiable), giving you an excuse to try something which you might not have considered in that moment. They are suggestions playing to your inclinations. If that motivation isn't there already, then heavier rewards that can be accurately judged according to likely input aren't going to do anything more than adjust your precise path through min-max grinding. Ie. it's just going to be one arbitrary gameplay choice versus another with only the precise amount of dil/ec/xp/mats registering in your experience. Catering to that mindset won't ultimately improve how the system is working (momentarily pulling players out of their habits with rewards that both play to and yet confound the skinner box mentality) or what players get out of it (in more than a minimally materialistic way.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
The Borg Assimilator
Live Long and Prosper.🖖[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I disagree. Certainly some are far easier and more doable than others, but honestly, I haven't had the time to pursue them.
Since 'Endeavors' was introduced I think I only completed like three of them, as I was doing the content I had wanted/planned to do anyway. It was a nice bonus.
As it is the game has more than enough 'grind' and it does not, in my humble opinion, need any more grind.
IF they decide to add more grind/challenge to satisfy the appetites of those who find the various grinds and challenges 'too easy', then let them do so. But make it an optional system, so the casual players don't get hammered.
Everyone should be able to enjoy the game the way they want & like.
The Borg Assimilator
Live Long and Prosper.🖖[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Borg Assimilator
Live Long and Prosper.🖖[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Usually I've completed the Universal Endeavors by accident, this is no different....
I ran Defense of Starbase 1, Crystalline Cataclysm, and started one System Patrol and got 500,000 and the Reward. Reward was the same number of items we are used to with the old Daily Endeavors (various Dilitium and EC awards, a Marks Choice Box, and Materials Packs).
The Gorn one awarded a Marks Choice Box and some EC.
The Ground Shield Heal just awarded some EC.
Where do you see these Points for Unlocks?
I saw there was a Universal one - do TFO Binary Circuit. I'll skip that .
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I had an easy one today..
1. Defeat Voth in the Dyson Sphere (Easy)
2. Defeat Tholian Ships in Space (Medium)
3. Defeat Undine Ships in Space (Hard.)
I did one run of the Undine Zone and that completed #1 and #3 in short order.
For the Tholian one I started 'Stormbound' and completed it in about 30 seconds. I didn't need the actual mission so I just warped out and dropped it.
I realize that comparatively, I got a very easy one but even if the requirements had been more time consuming I would still be happy with the system overall.
I have 2 days to complete this and it's account wide.. so I consider that more then fair. My concern was that the Personal Endeavors were going to be 'per character' and want me to accomplish these goal on all of my alts which would have been tedious to put it mildly.
Having 2 days to complete 3 tasks account wide that give me account wide bonuses is a system I personally find to be more then fair. I like this system.
- earn 500 GPL
- destroy 10 Borg ships
- complete an Iconian TFO
I was done in 20 minutes.It would be nice if this personal endeavor system could be upgraded to reward (additional) time investment as well as completing different tasks. Every personal endeavor could be repeatable, with with endeavor XP cut in half with every repetition. For example:
Complete Iconian TFOs
1st time -> 8000 XP
2nd time -> 4000 XP
3rd time -> 2000 XP
and so on..
Oh and half my toons that are 60+ aren't even seeing the personal endeavour listing. And yes I have moved the UI thing out from under the missions list so it can be seen.
You're lucky... I got "Complete Borg TFO (non red alert)" so I did Borg Disconnected and it didn't count. Next day I got "Complete Lukari TFO (non red alert) and I did Dranuur Gauntlet. Didn't count. Either the TFO stuff is glitchy or they need to specify which TFOs they consider to qualify rather than being vague like that.
In the Endeavor tab they do specify how and where you can complete a certain task. For example, when I look at my "Complete Iconian TFOs" task, it says: "Brotherhood of the Sword, Bug Hunt, Gateway to Grethor, Herald Sphere".
Still. Dranuur Gauntlet should count as a Lukari TFO. It might indeed be bugged.
Ah, I found what you're referencing - it does indeed mention which queues will count for the endeavor. That'll be useful when it actually works for me. It may be me-specific... there are other things that just don't ever work for me, like the lobi-based buying of vouchers for events. The option never appears in my lobi store or anywhere.. works for everyone else though.
Yep, it's on the list: Dranuur Beach Assault, Dranuur Gauntlet, Gravity Kills, Tzenkethi Front.
Yeah, I just drew this one as well.
My guess is that it was supposed to be a ground objective since as far as I know there is no way to deal Physical Damage in space. Guess I am staring that this one until tomorrow.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
it can be done... but the tool tip is totally fake news... if you have T5 rep in Temporal... use it's ability. or ships with special gimicks can do it as well.
edit: took me hours while grinding in a battlezone to notice it moving... since I dont always spam my T5 abilities. I swapped in Gravity Well & Tyken's Rift since tool tip said Science...
All in all, I like that they are now account wide progression vs the old version which depended if a single character completed the needed 3 Day Endeavor. The Additional Perks are nice from what I could tell for Ground and Space.
Oy....someone pointed that out to me after I posted this in game. Sad I didn't see it, but really wish it was it's own button on the minimap gui tray….almost like they should consider just adding another row of buttons.... I mean the Dil exchange, Endeavor, Visit Bridges, and PVP (though why is that separate anymore?) ….all justify their own button by now.
It turns out it's a display bug that they're slated to fix in the next patch. Any "Complete <whatever> TFO" is actually requires 3 not 1 as it claims... until you complete 3 it says 0/1