Missing the point. Read that article. Notice anything familiar about the arguments being made there?
What exactly is the point then? In reaction to someone listing their points of criticism the reply is, again and as so often, that people had similar complaints when TNG came out. How is that relevant to the person voicing their criticism?
It's obviously relevant because most Star Trek fans treasure TNG as an important part of the franchise today.
That means two things:
Just because there are some that don't like it doesn't mean no one likes it, and doesn't mean it won't be treasured just as much in the future.
If you see the same critique againts both shows, but the first show is treasured, you have to ask yourself if the critique is simply too shallow and ultimately does not actually provide anything to judge the new show on, or to act on.
You know, I don't remember screaming WTF that is so damn stupid so many times when watching TNG. I don't remember people acting so damn stupid that it broke my suspension of disbelief that they were even humans...much less trained officers in TNG on a CONSTANT basis. I don't remember anyone but Data in TNG who was able to do basically anything and everything...and he had the excuse of being an android...and even that was moronic storytelling. Having your MC do it just bad fanfic levels of writing. And these complaints are ones I see quite often...which is NOTHING like the complaints that article mentions. Which is a more it's new so we hate it comment before the show was seen. If I remember correctly, the real hate did not pour on until we actually got to see some of the things...like klingorc and the terrible ship designs. So there was at least the aspect of visual inconsistencies to the it's gonna blow comments. And really at this point, most of the hate is due to the idiotic levels of dumb in the stories...which is completely different from that article. I mean other than morons like midnight's edge for doomcock who like to spread rumors based on "credible sources within CBS".
And now, if you actually tell me the scenes where you were screaming WTF, maybe we would have something interesting to discuss.
what mystery? there was NO mystery - anyone with a functioning brain knew he was either section 31 or from the mirror universe the second he appeared in episode 3
no, actually, you know what - everyone knew long before that because producers don't know how to keep their damn mouths shut
It was Johnathan Frakes that basically spilled the beans. But this is not information that every Discovery viewer will have, because many don't follow out-of-show material slavishly. And many others are probably not that familiar with Star Trek that they would immediately think of Section 31 or the Mirror Universe, either.
But even with all that knowledge, you had two likely possibilities. Without it, you had a lot of good hints that something was up, that there was something odd to Lorca and it invited you to think about what that might be. And once the twist happens, you can see how it all fits together. That is beautiful.
There are shows that pull off "twists" by simply pulling them out of their TRIBBLE, because they haven't really decided yet what the big mystery will be. "Oh yeah, in reality, all the characters are in purgatory, we totally knew that from the start" or "She's not a computer chip or a delusion, she's an Angel!". Sometimes that can be fun, too, but it feels often more satisfying when you see the clues were always there and there is actually a chance you can figure out the solution before the characters can. And that in hindsight you can see it all fitting together and maybe your favorite theory winning out is a sign that the writers actually did their job well.
But what took the wind out of it in my opinion was that once in the Mirror Universe, Lorca had such a simplistic motivation. There weren't any hints he learned something from his experiences or that he was more than just another Mirror Bad Guy. And that was weak story-telling.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
A giant magical mushroom permeating space is about as logical as a god stuck behind an energy barrier in the center of the galaxy, (that used to be on the edge of the galaxy,) or a tar-creature composed of the evil bits of an alien race long gone, or meeting the Greek god Apollo on a tiny planet thousands of light years from Earth.
Fuller appears to have a man-crush on the mushroom doctor. The Discovery bit wasn't the first time he based a character on Stamets.
Fungi can be fascinating I get it (I had a semester of Mycology myself) but the "mycelial network" and "spore drive" are "Threshold" levels of dumb 😜
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I do not hate discovery - i never watchted it and probably never will - i've seen a Trailer and that's not Star Trek for me. Even a 24hour Keiko / Wesley Special would be more interesting for me than Discovery.
PSY
nice u wasted so much time in your sig - i do not see it anyway
Fungi can be fascinating I get it (I had a semester of Mycology myself) but the "mycelial network" and "spore drive" are "Threshold" levels of dumb 😜
I don't think so. It would be Threshold level of dumbs to claim it's "based" on real world science. But Threshold is quite simply applying scientific terms wrong in an incredible multitude of ways, and doesn't even take its own story to its logical conclusion.
(Evolution doesn't happen to individuals, but to species. Even if individuals evolve, there is no way evolution would cause a humanoid, air-breathing lifeform to form into some kind of amphibious creature that can't possible survive in the environment it is living in. And even if you had all that, if you also have an easy remedy for the transformation, just install the damn drive, transwarp home, and take the remedy!)
Discovery is clearly using fictional science, like the warp engine and the transporters already do. Within the Star Trek Universe, the idea of lifeforms in the vacuum of space and subspace are not new. Sure there could also be some kind of space fungus that's growing in space. The only "real world" science involved here is the idea that a single fungus could form huge networks, but it's clearly extrapolated into the fantastical.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Judging by the recent thread regarding the STO roadmap.
People seem to be very much against Star Trek Discovery. Just an honest and curious question I would like to ask people. Granted I had hoped for more DS9 but it can't be helped and despite my issues with the Klingons. I am generally curious as to current discourse with Discovery. That's all.
Edited vague thread title and moved to correct forum section. -- StarSword-C
A very simplistic and short answer: it's not Star Trek. It's a little more complicated than that however. What makes it really unbearable to watch for me is the Burnham character. Not only is the character poorly written and not believable but the actress is not very good.
The worst TOS episode is lightyears ahead of the best Discovery episode.
If you don't like a part of it, then don't watch it - spend your time focusing on the parts you do enjoy. Just don't bemoan or belittle others for having differing tastes than you.
> @rattler2 said: > Anyone remember when we were having similar... "debates" about Enterprise?
You mean the other prequel series that kept TRIBBLE up continuity and shamelessly and nonsensically trying to farm nostalgia from popular stuff from other Trek series?
Yes. Your point?
You might recall that, for the moment, Enterprise holds the dubious distinction of being the only Trek series post TOS movie revival not to make it to 7 seasons.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,405Community Moderator
We WERE going to get the Earth-Romulan War, which was an ESTABLISHED CANON EVENT in that time period. I believe it was some stupid corporate decision that axed Enterprise before we got to it, and gave us the rather lackluster, but somewhat interesting nod to an event in TNG, series finale. Was kinda funny having Riker compare the NX class Bridge to the Galaxy class Brig. But it did kinda detract from the Ent crew.
And my point is... where are the rants about Enterprise now? They were shifted over to the Kelvin Timeline movies when they came out. Now... we got people ranting and raving about Discovery, and we don't hear about the KT movies.
The point is... people are hating on the new stuff, seemingly just to hate on it because its new and different.
Yea some concerns may be legit, but to basically scream DOOOOOOOM on everything new?
My standpoint is not to judge a book by its cover. I'm not letting the past affect my judgement entirely. I am judging it on its own merits, like how the Battletech novels weren't following one particular person or group in every book. Hell... Battletech bounces all over their universe! One book is about some Clan Mechwarrior, another follows the mercenary company Grey Death Legion!
Kinda the same with Star Trek shows. It is not ALL about the USS Enterpris in various eras. Its not impossible to have ships have their own adventures. We were fine with DS9 and Voyager. The main thing is having familiar tech, such as warp drive and phasers and stuff like that. That still leaves room for other things to build up stories around, such as the experimental Spore Drive, which we know is too risky to develop further and will be shelved.
Do some characters need to develop more? Of course! That's true of ANY new show. In TNG, Worf went from the token Klingon on the Bridge to a full on character with his own complexity, and was even brought into DS9. We cannot expect everything to be mindblowing blockbuster successes right out of the gate. TNG and DS9 taught us that, yet that seems to be the expectation all the time.
The way I see it... the so called "True Fans" have set expectations so high... that unless we had the second coming of Roddenberry unleashing TOS 2.0, complete with 1960s asthetics, nothing will please them. And they will attack it, and anyone who doesn't agree with them, without mercy.
I am frankly sick and tired of these "True Fan" arguments and attacks. Being a "True Fan" does NOT require you to worship anything and attack anything that doesn't conform 100% to what came in the past, be it asthetics or story "quality". If the requirement of being a "True Fan" of Star Trek is to hate everything new, nitpick it to DEATH, wish DOOM on it without even giving it a chance to stand on its own merits rather than the merits of something from the 1960s...
I'm proud NOT to be a "True Fan" if that is the case. Because frankly... I feel like its getting to the point where no one actually cares that we're getting something new. If its not post Nemesis (which I'm sure they'd rant about if "they got it wrong") or looking like it was made in the 1960s, its blasphemy and must be destroyed.
The worst TOS episode is lightyears ahead of the best Discovery episode.
Clearly you've never seen "Turnabout Intruder" then....
Or "The Omega Glory". Or "Spock's Brain". Look, I love TOS, I grew up on that stuff - but I don't imagine its every episode was unalloyed platinum, gleaming in the darkness of standard television fare. Sometimes it was TRIBBLE (Sturgeon's Law, after all - or perhaps Anderson's Law: "There is nothing so great that someone somewhere doesn't hate it. And vice versa").
De gustibus non disputandem est, of course. As long as you (the general you, not Val or Trygvar in particular) don't try to justify your dislike with poor reasoning, we can just agree to disagree.
Jon's Post, supplemental: I think I love this new censor.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,405Community Moderator
I've been wondering why people are all of a sudden saying Tribble randomly...
I've been wondering why people are all of a sudden saying Tribble randomly...
We're not. It would seem that someone here is so thin-skinned that they cannot handle the acronym TRIBBLE, so they banned the word. Clearly we need a "Newspeak" dictionary for this forum now, since some O'Brien is in charge here.
Oh, it's not just that. For instance, if you're familiar with Sturgeon's Law, you know what word was replaced with TRIBBLE in my post. I understand the reasoning, however, as the forums here are supposed to be family-friendly, and some posters just can't seem to refrain from using certain, ah, colorful turns of phrase...
Yeah, the fourth season was really picking up, despite Berman and Braga leaving Coto with the time-traveling alien Na.zi lizard cliffhanger (and Coto's Augment episodes, which I still think were a major misstep), but sadly by this point network mismanagement of the show had already done its damage.
Network executives don't like Sci-Fi. They don't think their audience wants to think, for one thing, and they don't think they can sell products using it for another.
But the biggest issue they have with it is that it doesn't fit any defined genre. Horor? Romance? Heroic action? What the hell is it anyway? And why do these people babble nonsense for three quarters of the movie? Get in there and have sex with something or shoot something or make something explode! (Preferably while having sex and shooting.)
Science fiction doesn't have a fanbase either. The sci-fi fans watch romance witch/vampire/werewolf stories and they watch football. They watch Rambo XXVII and Iron Chef. You can't find a random group that loves sci-fi that has pretty much anything else in common. How do you market to them? Disposable briefs and incontinence medicine? Sports cars? Vacation destinations? What the hell do those people buy besides low-budget computer role playing games?
Your next bonus check depends on how well the season lineup does, both in ratings and in advertisement sales. Do you put on America's Got Talented Losers? Or do you roll the dice and hope this new Sci-Fi TRIBBLE sells this time, when the numbers you have in front of you say that stuff only does well in second run syndication? (The numbers never say why it only does well in second run, though.)
Average Joe/Jane Network Exec is going to run with what's popular, not what's good, and if someone higher up forces her to run that sci-fi TRIBBLE it's going to be in a slot that doesn't sell well anyway, or in a slot that gets preempted a lot, because the next bonus check depends on not putting a floating stinker in a decent slot that could be used to run a cheap fake reality show that sells lots of pimple cream and makeup.
Judging by the recent thread regarding the STO roadmap.
People seem to be very much against Star Trek Discovery. Just an honest and curious question I would like to ask people. Granted I had hoped for more DS9 but it can't be helped and despite my issues with the Klingons. I am generally curious as to current discourse with Discovery. That's all.
Well, the show's fanbase is awful.
They resort to personal attacks and feel that someone criticizing the show is a personal attack. Look how they censored the acronym "EssTDee", for instance. Before, I used "EssTDee" interchangeably with Star Trek: Discovery but this petty and childish response just makes me want to spell out the acronym.
At this point, I dislike the fans more than the writing (and that's an accomplishment; EssTDee's writing is terrible).
I believe it was some stupid corporate decision that axed Enterprise ...
You mean the decision where they looked at finances and realized that Enterprise was losing money?
In a lot of situations, it doesn't matter if it is losing money. All that matters is that it is not making enough money. I think I first experienced this with City of Heroes. The NCSoft Executives decided to stop funding the game and it came as a complete surprise to the devs.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Judging by the recent thread regarding the STO roadmap.
People seem to be very much against Star Trek Discovery. Just an honest and curious question I would like to ask people. Granted I had hoped for more DS9 but it can't be helped and despite my issues with the Klingons. I am generally curious as to current discourse with Discovery. That's all.
Well, the show's fanbase is awful.
They resort to personal attacks and feel that someone criticizing the show is a personal attack. Look how they censored the acronym "EssTDee", for instance. Before, I used "EssTDee" interchangeably with Star Trek: Discovery but this petty and childish response just makes me want to spell out the acronym.
At this point, I dislike the fans more than the writing (and that's an accomplishment; EssTDee's writing is terrible).
Okay, this is another of those arguments that are full of TRIBBLE, Reddy. It's not just your precious acronym that's getting censored with that word, it's any TRIBBLE word that violates the TRIBBLE ToS about not posting profanity and obscenity (which I've deliberately done here, just to prove my point).
Get over yourself. You're not nearly as important and influential as you imagine.
what mystery? there was NO mystery - anyone with a functioning brain knew he was either section 31 or from the mirror universe the second he appeared in episode 3
no, actually, you know what - everyone knew long before that because producers don't know how to keep their damn mouths shut
It was Johnathan Frakes that basically spilled the beans. But this is not information that every Discovery viewer will have, because many don't follow out-of-show material slavishly. And many others are probably not that familiar with Star Trek that they would immediately think of Section 31 or the Mirror Universe, either.
But even with all that knowledge, you had two likely possibilities. Without it, you had a lot of good hints that something was up, that there was something odd to Lorca and it invited you to think about what that might be. And once the twist happens, you can see how it all fits together. That is beautiful.
As someone once told me, the trick to writing a good mystery is in making it so the viewer CAN figure it out without spelling it out. For this there MUST be clues and hints, things that can and will point some viewers in the right direction and some people will guess right early because they paid attention.
what mystery? there was NO mystery - anyone with a functioning brain knew he was either section 31 or from the mirror universe the second he appeared in episode 3
no, actually, you know what - everyone knew long before that because producers don't know how to keep their damn mouths shut
It was Johnathan Frakes that basically spilled the beans. But this is not information that every Discovery viewer will have, because many don't follow out-of-show material slavishly. And many others are probably not that familiar with Star Trek that they would immediately think of Section 31 or the Mirror Universe, either.
But even with all that knowledge, you had two likely possibilities. Without it, you had a lot of good hints that something was up, that there was something odd to Lorca and it invited you to think about what that might be. And once the twist happens, you can see how it all fits together. That is beautiful.
As someone once told me, the trick to writing a good mystery is in making it so the viewer CAN figure it out without spelling it out. For this there MUST be clues and hints, things that can and will point some viewers in the right direction and some people will guess right early because they paid attention.
But there was nothing to indicate that Lorca was part of the Mirror Universe since the whole light sensitivity issue was only introduced in Discovery. The Mirror Universe Enterprise in TOS was just as bright as the USS Enterprise. The Mirror Universe Enterprise in Enterprise was darker, but it was just as bright as the USS Enterprise in Enterprise. There was only evidence that Lorca might not be part of the Federation not that he was from the Mirror Universe.
Judging by the recent thread regarding the STO roadmap.
People seem to be very much against Star Trek Discovery. Just an honest and curious question I would like to ask people. Granted I had hoped for more DS9 but it can't be helped and despite my issues with the Klingons. I am generally curious as to current discourse with Discovery. That's all.
Well, the show's fanbase is awful.
They resort to personal attacks and feel that someone criticizing the show is a personal attack. Look how they censored the acronym "EssTDee", for instance. Before, I used "EssTDee" interchangeably with Star Trek: Discovery but this petty and childish response just makes me want to spell out the acronym.
At this point, I dislike the fans more than the writing (and that's an accomplishment; EssTDee's writing is terrible).
Okay, this is another of those arguments that are full of TRIBBLE, Reddy. It's not just your precious acronym that's getting censored with that word, it's any TRIBBLE word that violates the TRIBBLE ToS about not posting profanity and obscenity (which I've deliberately done here, just to prove my point).
Get over yourself. You're not nearly as important and influential as you imagine.
I actually kinda like the change of the censor to say tribble actually. That part is quite clever and I like it. It's the inclusion of essteedee in the list that is the problem. Because a few snowflakes wanna get triggered. And if you think this is helping in any form, you are sorely mistaken. It makes my opinions of those who like that show go from it's already really low stance even lower. And if you think my disdain was bad before...yeah it's gonna be at a whole new level now. Like they may have even gives those looney anti-SJW ranters a valid point level of disdain. Now mind you, there is still a ton against those loons...but when the fans of essteedee makes even ONE of their looney things into an actual valid point...yeah there is an issue there. I think I am starting to see why Trump won now. There is a side who seems to want to be authoritarian and control what people say...or hell even THINK and need to be protected if they come across something different. Given a choice between that and Trump...yeah I can easily see why people picked the orange buffoon. Wow...you all made Trump look like the sane choice...I'm impressed. Terrified...but impressed.
I didn’t get an idea he was from the MU until there was that scene where we see his scars and one looked like it could be from an agonizer.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I didn’t get an idea he was from the MU until there was that scene where we see his scars and one looked like it could be from an agonizer.
The scars could have been due to torture from the Klingons for all we knew at the time. It would have explained his motivations against the Klingons far better than being a bigot from the Mirror Universe trying to get back home.
"The Federation is dumb because people on Earth are mostly Petty and selfish so for realism Star Trek should he all about everyone being miserable and trying to backstab and murder eachother at every opportunity for the chance at more wealth and power!".
Ah, I see you've been reading the Masterverse stories!
(I kid, I kid - mostly )
If he was, I think he'd be the only one left, Jon. (though generally I try to keep the Earthers as focused on their own activities and philosophies, that it has negative consequences for the dirty colonists has more to do with the inevitable Urban/Rural divide than with power-play politics. Policies that seem to work and make sense in Chicago are going to get you killed-by-the-environment most other places that aren't large, metropolitan hives of humanity.)
Nonsense, I read them too!
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I didn’t get an idea he was from the MU until there was that scene where we see his scars and one looked like it could be from an agonizer.
The scars could have been due to torture from the Klingons for all we knew at the time. It would have explained his motivations against the Klingons far better than being a bigot from the Mirror Universe trying to get back home.
Lol, You know there's a reason to call it "clues" in the plural tense right? There was a lot of hints that he wasn't who he claimed to be. You gotta take them together as a whole.
Yes, because constantly alikening a show to venereal disease isn't intended to troll/flame. /sarcasm.
The official acronym from day 1 has been DSC or ST:DSC, just like ST:TNG, ST:DS9, ST:VOY, and ST:ENT. The only reason so many people use ST:D as an acronym is, by their own admission, to deride the show by alikening it to venereal disease.
Then we've got the small fact you're ignoring that most threads tackling this issue have descended into a flame war with anyone who defends DSC being branded a 'sheep', 'snowflake', 'SJW', etc. (see Cold's response above.) This isn't the first time PWE has censored something inflammatory to prevent flame wars (that Star Wars MMO, for instance), and it won't be the last. PWE aren't doing this to protect CBS's prized false-starter, they're doing it to try and limit how many flipping flame wars crop up on the forum.
I often call it "ST:D" because that tickles me. However, it's not censored because of "flame wars", although as noted above those do tend to happen; it's censored, along with a whole raft of terms, because someone at PWE considers a reference to seuxally-transmitted diseases potentially offensive (the same reason why it's difficult to discuss how to open a door around here, because the forum autocensors the word "k.nob", or to reference Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. TRIBBLE).
[...] it's censored, along with a whole raft of terms, because someone at PWE considers a reference to seuxally-transmitted diseases potentially offensive (the same reason why it's difficult to discuss how to open a door around here, because the forum autocensors the word "k.nob", or to reference Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. TRIBBLE).
There is that as well, although I'd argue reference to venereal disease genuinely is potentially offensive (depending on the context - like the 'g' word, it's too often used in a derogatory manner), whereas a good number of the terms recently censored aren't used offensively in any context, such as the Christian word for the underworld.
[...] it's censored, along with a whole raft of terms, because someone at PWE considers a reference to seuxally-transmitted diseases potentially offensive (the same reason why it's difficult to discuss how to open a door around here, because the forum autocensors the word "k.nob", or to reference Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. TRIBBLE).
There is that as well, although I'd argue reference to venereal disease genuinely is potentially offensive (depending on the context - like the 'g' word, it's too often used in a derogatory manner), whereas a good number of the terms recently censored aren't used offensively in any context, such as the Christian word for the underworld.
Because, apparently, PWE thinks that we are five year olds. I can understand outright vulgarity or hardcore profanity. But words that have other meanings besides the vulgar, or light-weight substitutions for cuss words, is going a bit overboard in my opinion.
Now I got that out of the way, on to the topic at hand..............
Most of the accusations of "toxic behavior" of fans is directed at the hardcore haters of ST:D. While true that a lot of invective has come from the fandom's "Old Guard", I'm also seeing people (even among rank and file ST:D fans, not just fanboys) on the pro-Discovery side start to behave like special snowflakes, who take even legitimate reasons to dislike the show to be on par to rabid fanboi-ism by the haters or the equivalent to a personal attack. They are falling into that old defensive trap.
I have many reasons to dislike ST:D that doesn't involve me being a "True Fan" of old school Trek. I also have a list of a few things to like about Discovery.
What I like:
1. Nice visuals
2. Cool small arms and gear. Pistols blend the look of The Cage's laser pistols and TOS's Type 2 phasers. The "rifles" are basically a tacticool version of the Type 3 of TOS's second pilot.
3. I like the Federation ship designs of the series
4. I like the updated Prime Constitution Class.
5. Michelle Yeoh
6. Tilly's fantastic behind and nice chest. And she's a redhead.
7. The Battle of the Binary Stars
8. Despite all the hoopla/fear over "PC Trek", based on the production team's past comment, the virtue signalling has been kept at a very low level, to the point of being non-existent for all intents and purposes. That suits me fine.
What I don't like:
1. I don't like being compared to a Klingorc with a martyr complex just because of who I voted for. I rather be compared to a TNG Klingon, even one as psycho looking/acting as Gowron.
2. The show's main character having a male first name, even if it's a quirk of one of the production/writing team to give females male surnames. It comes across as silly to me. And I don't give a damn how it was used a thousand years ago. I'm only concerned with the here and now. Many people won't recognize it as a quirk, but yet more "preaching" on this gender fluidity BS that's being shoveled today (even though that's not the case here). But that is not my main gripe(s) with the character.....
3. The main character's (Michael's) backstory comes across as badly written fan fiction. But thankfully not a self-insert fanfiction (that I know of). And...
4. She's a typical Mary Sue. Played by an actress who main forte is playing supporting characters, and whose acting abilities are only average in my opinion.
5. I'm not a big fan of Jason Issacs as an actor even though I liked the Lorca character (too bad he wasn't kept around)
6. The writing, in general, hasn't been up to par in Season One. Hopefully, playing on nostalgia, and introducing a humor element, with Captain Pike's addition, will pick things up.
You see? Articulated criticisms and likes. You might not agree. But it's not the "True Fan" cr@p that anybody that dislikes ST:D (whole or in part) get tarred with by the knee-jerk lurking among Discovery's fans.
As for Discovery material for STO, I have no real issue. I don't forsee ST:D overshadowing homegrown material, or stuff relating to old school Trek, down the road. There is plenty that I'm not happy about relating to how the launch of AoD was handled/implemented. But I'm willing to give Cryptic the chance to get things right, in both current Discovery content and future Discovery content.
Comments
And now, if you actually tell me the scenes where you were screaming WTF, maybe we would have something interesting to discuss.
It was Johnathan Frakes that basically spilled the beans. But this is not information that every Discovery viewer will have, because many don't follow out-of-show material slavishly. And many others are probably not that familiar with Star Trek that they would immediately think of Section 31 or the Mirror Universe, either.
But even with all that knowledge, you had two likely possibilities. Without it, you had a lot of good hints that something was up, that there was something odd to Lorca and it invited you to think about what that might be. And once the twist happens, you can see how it all fits together. That is beautiful.
There are shows that pull off "twists" by simply pulling them out of their TRIBBLE, because they haven't really decided yet what the big mystery will be. "Oh yeah, in reality, all the characters are in purgatory, we totally knew that from the start" or "She's not a computer chip or a delusion, she's an Angel!". Sometimes that can be fun, too, but it feels often more satisfying when you see the clues were always there and there is actually a chance you can figure out the solution before the characters can. And that in hindsight you can see it all fitting together and maybe your favorite theory winning out is a sign that the writers actually did their job well.
But what took the wind out of it in my opinion was that once in the Mirror Universe, Lorca had such a simplistic motivation. There weren't any hints he learned something from his experiences or that he was more than just another Mirror Bad Guy. And that was weak story-telling.
Fuller appears to have a man-crush on the mushroom doctor. The Discovery bit wasn't the first time he based a character on Stamets.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
PSY
(Evolution doesn't happen to individuals, but to species. Even if individuals evolve, there is no way evolution would cause a humanoid, air-breathing lifeform to form into some kind of amphibious creature that can't possible survive in the environment it is living in. And even if you had all that, if you also have an easy remedy for the transformation, just install the damn drive, transwarp home, and take the remedy!)
Discovery is clearly using fictional science, like the warp engine and the transporters already do. Within the Star Trek Universe, the idea of lifeforms in the vacuum of space and subspace are not new. Sure there could also be some kind of space fungus that's growing in space. The only "real world" science involved here is the idea that a single fungus could form huge networks, but it's clearly extrapolated into the fantastical.
A very simplistic and short answer: it's not Star Trek. It's a little more complicated than that however. What makes it really unbearable to watch for me is the Burnham character. Not only is the character poorly written and not believable but the actress is not very good.
Discovery made the JJ verse movies into masterpieces overnight. The worst TOS episode is lightyears ahead of the best Discovery episode.
Val, you know which fanbase this is, right?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
> Anyone remember when we were having similar... "debates" about Enterprise?
You mean the other prequel series that kept TRIBBLE up continuity and shamelessly and nonsensically trying to farm nostalgia from popular stuff from other Trek series?
Yes. Your point?
You might recall that, for the moment, Enterprise holds the dubious distinction of being the only Trek series post TOS movie revival not to make it to 7 seasons.
And my point is... where are the rants about Enterprise now? They were shifted over to the Kelvin Timeline movies when they came out. Now... we got people ranting and raving about Discovery, and we don't hear about the KT movies.
The point is... people are hating on the new stuff, seemingly just to hate on it because its new and different.
Yea some concerns may be legit, but to basically scream DOOOOOOOM on everything new?
My standpoint is not to judge a book by its cover. I'm not letting the past affect my judgement entirely. I am judging it on its own merits, like how the Battletech novels weren't following one particular person or group in every book. Hell... Battletech bounces all over their universe! One book is about some Clan Mechwarrior, another follows the mercenary company Grey Death Legion!
Kinda the same with Star Trek shows. It is not ALL about the USS Enterpris in various eras. Its not impossible to have ships have their own adventures. We were fine with DS9 and Voyager. The main thing is having familiar tech, such as warp drive and phasers and stuff like that. That still leaves room for other things to build up stories around, such as the experimental Spore Drive, which we know is too risky to develop further and will be shelved.
Do some characters need to develop more? Of course! That's true of ANY new show. In TNG, Worf went from the token Klingon on the Bridge to a full on character with his own complexity, and was even brought into DS9. We cannot expect everything to be mindblowing blockbuster successes right out of the gate. TNG and DS9 taught us that, yet that seems to be the expectation all the time.
The way I see it... the so called "True Fans" have set expectations so high... that unless we had the second coming of Roddenberry unleashing TOS 2.0, complete with 1960s asthetics, nothing will please them. And they will attack it, and anyone who doesn't agree with them, without mercy.
I am frankly sick and tired of these "True Fan" arguments and attacks. Being a "True Fan" does NOT require you to worship anything and attack anything that doesn't conform 100% to what came in the past, be it asthetics or story "quality". If the requirement of being a "True Fan" of Star Trek is to hate everything new, nitpick it to DEATH, wish DOOM on it without even giving it a chance to stand on its own merits rather than the merits of something from the 1960s...
I'm proud NOT to be a "True Fan" if that is the case. Because frankly... I feel like its getting to the point where no one actually cares that we're getting something new. If its not post Nemesis (which I'm sure they'd rant about if "they got it wrong") or looking like it was made in the 1960s, its blasphemy and must be destroyed.
De gustibus non disputandem est, of course. As long as you (the general you, not Val or Trygvar in particular) don't try to justify your dislike with poor reasoning, we can just agree to disagree.
Jon's Post, supplemental: I think I love this new censor.
But the biggest issue they have with it is that it doesn't fit any defined genre. Horor? Romance? Heroic action? What the hell is it anyway? And why do these people babble nonsense for three quarters of the movie? Get in there and have sex with something or shoot something or make something explode! (Preferably while having sex and shooting.)
Science fiction doesn't have a fanbase either. The sci-fi fans watch romance witch/vampire/werewolf stories and they watch football. They watch Rambo XXVII and Iron Chef. You can't find a random group that loves sci-fi that has pretty much anything else in common. How do you market to them? Disposable briefs and incontinence medicine? Sports cars? Vacation destinations? What the hell do those people buy besides low-budget computer role playing games?
Your next bonus check depends on how well the season lineup does, both in ratings and in advertisement sales. Do you put on America's Got Talented Losers? Or do you roll the dice and hope this new Sci-Fi TRIBBLE sells this time, when the numbers you have in front of you say that stuff only does well in second run syndication? (The numbers never say why it only does well in second run, though.)
Average Joe/Jane Network Exec is going to run with what's popular, not what's good, and if someone higher up forces her to run that sci-fi TRIBBLE it's going to be in a slot that doesn't sell well anyway, or in a slot that gets preempted a lot, because the next bonus check depends on not putting a floating stinker in a decent slot that could be used to run a cheap fake reality show that sells lots of pimple cream and makeup.
They resort to personal attacks and feel that someone criticizing the show is a personal attack. Look how they censored the acronym "EssTDee", for instance. Before, I used "EssTDee" interchangeably with Star Trek: Discovery but this petty and childish response just makes me want to spell out the acronym.
At this point, I dislike the fans more than the writing (and that's an accomplishment; EssTDee's writing is terrible).
In a lot of situations, it doesn't matter if it is losing money. All that matters is that it is not making enough money. I think I first experienced this with City of Heroes. The NCSoft Executives decided to stop funding the game and it came as a complete surprise to the devs.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Get over yourself. You're not nearly as important and influential as you imagine.
My character Tsin'xing
But there was nothing to indicate that Lorca was part of the Mirror Universe since the whole light sensitivity issue was only introduced in Discovery. The Mirror Universe Enterprise in TOS was just as bright as the USS Enterprise. The Mirror Universe Enterprise in Enterprise was darker, but it was just as bright as the USS Enterprise in Enterprise. There was only evidence that Lorca might not be part of the Federation not that he was from the Mirror Universe.
The censoring just reminds me of The Good Place.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The scars could have been due to torture from the Klingons for all we knew at the time. It would have explained his motivations against the Klingons far better than being a bigot from the Mirror Universe trying to get back home.
Nonsense, I read them too!
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
My character Tsin'xing
The official acronym from day 1 has been DSC or ST:DSC, just like ST:TNG, ST:DS9, ST:VOY, and ST:ENT. The only reason so many people use ST:D as an acronym is, by their own admission, to deride the show by alikening it to venereal disease.
Then we've got the small fact you're ignoring that most threads tackling this issue have descended into a flame war with anyone who defends DSC being branded a 'sheep', 'snowflake', 'SJW', etc. (see Cold's response above.) This isn't the first time PWE has censored something inflammatory to prevent flame wars (that Star Wars MMO, for instance), and it won't be the last. PWE aren't doing this to protect CBS's prized false-starter, they're doing it to try and limit how many flipping flame wars crop up on the forum.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
There is that as well, although I'd argue reference to venereal disease genuinely is potentially offensive (depending on the context - like the 'g' word, it's too often used in a derogatory manner), whereas a good number of the terms recently censored aren't used offensively in any context, such as the Christian word for the underworld.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Because, apparently, PWE thinks that we are five year olds. I can understand outright vulgarity or hardcore profanity. But words that have other meanings besides the vulgar, or light-weight substitutions for cuss words, is going a bit overboard in my opinion.
Now I got that out of the way, on to the topic at hand..............
Most of the accusations of "toxic behavior" of fans is directed at the hardcore haters of ST:D. While true that a lot of invective has come from the fandom's "Old Guard", I'm also seeing people (even among rank and file ST:D fans, not just fanboys) on the pro-Discovery side start to behave like special snowflakes, who take even legitimate reasons to dislike the show to be on par to rabid fanboi-ism by the haters or the equivalent to a personal attack. They are falling into that old defensive trap.
I have many reasons to dislike ST:D that doesn't involve me being a "True Fan" of old school Trek. I also have a list of a few things to like about Discovery.
What I like:
1. Nice visuals
2. Cool small arms and gear. Pistols blend the look of The Cage's laser pistols and TOS's Type 2 phasers. The "rifles" are basically a tacticool version of the Type 3 of TOS's second pilot.
3. I like the Federation ship designs of the series
4. I like the updated Prime Constitution Class.
5. Michelle Yeoh
6. Tilly's fantastic behind and nice chest. And she's a redhead.
7. The Battle of the Binary Stars
8. Despite all the hoopla/fear over "PC Trek", based on the production team's past comment, the virtue signalling has been kept at a very low level, to the point of being non-existent for all intents and purposes. That suits me fine.
What I don't like:
1. I don't like being compared to a Klingorc with a martyr complex just because of who I voted for. I rather be compared to a TNG Klingon, even one as psycho looking/acting as Gowron.
2. The show's main character having a male first name, even if it's a quirk of one of the production/writing team to give females male surnames. It comes across as silly to me. And I don't give a damn how it was used a thousand years ago. I'm only concerned with the here and now. Many people won't recognize it as a quirk, but yet more "preaching" on this gender fluidity BS that's being shoveled today (even though that's not the case here). But that is not my main gripe(s) with the character.....
3. The main character's (Michael's) backstory comes across as badly written fan fiction. But thankfully not a self-insert fanfiction (that I know of). And...
4. She's a typical Mary Sue. Played by an actress who main forte is playing supporting characters, and whose acting abilities are only average in my opinion.
5. I'm not a big fan of Jason Issacs as an actor even though I liked the Lorca character (too bad he wasn't kept around)
6. The writing, in general, hasn't been up to par in Season One. Hopefully, playing on nostalgia, and introducing a humor element, with Captain Pike's addition, will pick things up.
You see? Articulated criticisms and likes. You might not agree. But it's not the "True Fan" cr@p that anybody that dislikes ST:D (whole or in part) get tarred with by the knee-jerk lurking among Discovery's fans.
As for Discovery material for STO, I have no real issue. I don't forsee ST:D overshadowing homegrown material, or stuff relating to old school Trek, down the road. There is plenty that I'm not happy about relating to how the launch of AoD was handled/implemented. But I'm willing to give Cryptic the chance to get things right, in both current Discovery content and future Discovery content.
Peace.