I can't wait for the number of people who will start a real war of stalking whom they find "like or dislike" their comments. This is enabling some degree of virtual bullying and harassment. Don't we have enough with Facebook or tweeter with "likes" or emojis? Consider please making at least anonymous.
PS (...and Paradox forums...not as popular as STO IMO)
That might have already started. In another tread duncanidaho11 has stopped having constructive discussions with me and has just voted negatively on all my posts in that thread since this feature came out. Which I kind of find funny given his attitude.
One of the reasons I try to ignore and do not use these systems is you get people who just vote on seeing a persons name not based on what they wrote.
1
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
If you hover your mouse in each posted reaction it will tell you what person voted for what? Shouldn't this be anonymous? or at least have a setting similar to anonymous polls?
I can't wait for the number of people who will start a real war of stalking whom they find "like or dislike" their comments. This is enabling some degree of virtual bullying and harassment. Don't we have enough with Facebook or tweeter with "likes" or emojis? Consider please making at least anonymous.
Its possible that it only shows who when there's very few, or only shows the most recent when it gets up in the numbers. Although I too am a little concerned with the potential for abuse. We know of a Certain Fleet, and we know there are some individuals who seem to have a vendetta against other forumites.
At the moment though it seems that everyone is actually being respectful, which is a nice change.
As for the reactions... it could be considered a way to say "This guy's got an interesting idea" or "I don't really agree" without actually posting if you don't feel like it.
So I can see both Pros and Cons right now. All we can do is see how its implimented and see how its tweaked based on feedback. At least its not a tidal wave of "change it back" like when we had some UI changes in game.
So I just logged into Arc and noticed that there are new reactions in the Vanilla Star Trek Online forums. I was very surprised! Though I wish the Vote Up option was first before the Vote Down option going from left to right. Otherwise, it is very good. Thanks.
I can't wait for the number of people who will start a real war of stalking whom they find "like or dislike" their comments. This is enabling some degree of virtual bullying and harassment. Don't we have enough with Facebook or tweeter with "likes" or emojis? Consider please making at least anonymous.
PS (...and Paradox forums...not as popular as STO IMO)
That might have already started. In another tread duncanidaho11 has stopped having constructive discussions with me and has just voted negatively on all my posts in that thread since this feature came out.
^^ And this, IMHO, illustrates wonderfully why the 'Like' system is very bad idea, IMHO. Especially showing who voted you down: it leads to personal resentment, and will, in general, be used -- as apparently already happened -- as a tool to grind axes.
STO is a forum of 'deep emotions.' Discussions run hot, at times; abuse of this system will inevitably occur.
Also, I feel it's a passive-aggressive form of censorship: 'Make lovey-dovey nice posts, or wind up at the bottom of the thread list.' Within the forum rules, of course, people should feel unencumbered to express their opinions -- even unpopular ones -- sans having to face retributions.
You know that isn't what this system is meant for... right?
This system is pointless and redundant, so do whatever you want with it.
If you disagree with someone's post you put your hands on the keyboard and type "I disagree, and here is why". Conversely, you use your keyboard to type "I agree, and here is why". Mindless "you suck" points do nothing. They don't give the poster any feedback and do not progress the conversation.
STO is a forum of 'deep emotions.' Discussions run hot, at times; abuse of this system will inevitably occur.
Yep. Someone make a "add new costume" post? Downvote to oblivion because "other things are more important for dev time". What about "playable Borg"? Downvote. "Somthing" in game "is too hard". Downvote and LTP, scrub.
Star Trek: Discovery threads will become battlezones (obviously, what a game forum needs is more tribalization).
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
Not everyone can be civil in responding to posts though. We've seen it alot. Also maybe they don't have an opinion on why but do agree or disagree on something, so why should they be forced to dictate why they agree or not. It also means we cut down on the simple "I agree" or "I disagree" posts for said people who don't have a reason they wish to share.
As I said before, I can see pros and cons.
+Another option for people who don't want to directly post a response. (IE selecting Insightful or LOL)
-Can be abused to unfairly target particular forumites with negative reaction selection. (Vote Down out of spite)
As long as threads or posts don't move around based on how they are reacted to... I see no problem with people having the option. But if somehow they are able to manipulate the forums to get topics they want seen and topics they don't want buried... we're gonna have a MASSIVE influx of 1 post wonders swarming threads to skew the results in favor of one side or the other.
I already get a little annoyed by 1 post wonders acting like they own the forums and know all.
As long as threads or posts don't move around based on how they are reacted to... I see no problem with people having the option. But if somehow they are able to manipulate the forums to get topics they want seen and topics they don't want buried... we're gonna have a MASSIVE influx of 1 post wonders swarming threads to skew the results in favor of one side or the other.
You'll notice some new buttons on posts in the forum. These allow you to react to a post without having to respond, and will have some noticeable effect on which posts move to the top of the forum. It's somewhat similar to Reddit's system. We're giving it a try to see how we like it, please let me know any feedback you might have.
Waiting for a programmer ...
-1
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
I'd prefer comment order to remain fixed to preserve linear progression through discussion. The miscellaneous buttons IMO should be reserved for small reactions that can provide the user with feedback that they don't always get through postings (namely: lol, awesome, insightful, and off topic [as a small nudge before flag-worthy derailment].)
It could do with some Trekking up too if that's at all possible (lol, honorable, logical, yellow alert)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
If someone agrees with what I say, I'd like to know why - same with disagreements. The system doesn't promote constructive discussion, or any discussion at all for that matter.
(But hey, I could have just left a down vote here instead of this answer and left it at that. See what I mean? )
The Forum Avatar when you go into your Profile is enlarged and superimposed over the Avatar that has always been there and the Comments Selector.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
A few hours before this crop of Buttons you had added Agree, Disagree, and Like.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lt. Philip J. Minns
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
I'll join the ranks of the grumpy buzzkills and say I'd rather not see these here. The "like" culture really is nothing desireable in my opinion. Reddit is a really toxic place in a lot of areas (especially if it's about politics) and a voting feature like this leads to a controlled suppression of topics in the default viewing mode. I also think having a public record of how "lol" or "downvoteable" someone is is a bad idea. We had an orville episode about that...
If I don't deem a discussion worthy to post something in I move on. I don't think we need a popular vote on everything, we already have polls.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
There's still the 'block' option so that's good. But they add absolutely nothing to interaction.
If you can't be bothered to write a few sentences in reply I don't really care what you think of my posts.
Like Reddit it just encourages laziness and censorship and adds nothing for interaction.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
One of the reasons I try to ignore and do not use these systems is you get people who just vote on seeing a persons name not based on what they wrote.
Its possible that it only shows who when there's very few, or only shows the most recent when it gets up in the numbers. Although I too am a little concerned with the potential for abuse. We know of a Certain Fleet, and we know there are some individuals who seem to have a vendetta against other forumites.
At the moment though it seems that everyone is actually being respectful, which is a nice change.
As for the reactions... it could be considered a way to say "This guy's got an interesting idea" or "I don't really agree" without actually posting if you don't feel like it.
So I can see both Pros and Cons right now. All we can do is see how its implimented and see how its tweaked based on feedback. At least its not a tidal wave of "change it back" like when we had some UI changes in game.
My character Tsin'xing
Kael's thread.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Kael's thread
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
^^ And this, IMHO, illustrates wonderfully why the 'Like' system is very bad idea, IMHO. Especially showing who voted you down: it leads to personal resentment, and will, in general, be used -- as apparently already happened -- as a tool to grind axes.
STO is a forum of 'deep emotions.' Discussions run hot, at times; abuse of this system will inevitably occur.
Also, I feel it's a passive-aggressive form of censorship: 'Make lovey-dovey nice posts, or wind up at the bottom of the thread list.' Within the forum rules, of course, people should feel unencumbered to express their opinions -- even unpopular ones -- sans having to face retributions.
This weekend, I watched the episode "Majority Rule" of The Orville. I have to say it was rather apropros.
In case you're wondering, yes, it works.
Now, we can up-vote bug reports.
Ugly horizontal line still unfixed. Up-vote: Horizontal Line
And we can down-vote features we don't like.
Landing page. Down-vote: Official Landing Page Feedback Thread
No Romulan ship. Down-vote: [PC] Announcing the Recon Destroyer Bundle!
No Romulan ship. Down-vote: New Support Cruisers Join the Alliance Fleet
Let the voting commence!
Which is exactly why people are going to use it that way. :P
If you disagree with someone's post you put your hands on the keyboard and type "I disagree, and here is why". Conversely, you use your keyboard to type "I agree, and here is why". Mindless "you suck" points do nothing. They don't give the poster any feedback and do not progress the conversation. Yep. Someone make a "add new costume" post? Downvote to oblivion because "other things are more important for dev time". What about "playable Borg"? Downvote. "Somthing" in game "is too hard". Downvote and LTP, scrub.
Star Trek: Discovery threads will become battlezones (obviously, what a game forum needs is more tribalization).
As I said before, I can see pros and cons.
+Another option for people who don't want to directly post a response. (IE selecting Insightful or LOL)
-Can be abused to unfairly target particular forumites with negative reaction selection. (Vote Down out of spite)
As long as threads or posts don't move around based on how they are reacted to... I see no problem with people having the option. But if somehow they are able to manipulate the forums to get topics they want seen and topics they don't want buried... we're gonna have a MASSIVE influx of 1 post wonders swarming threads to skew the results in favor of one side or the other.
I already get a little annoyed by 1 post wonders acting like they own the forums and know all.
Of course, no one ever used anything in a way other than how it was intended.
It could do with some Trekking up too if that's at all possible (lol, honorable, logical, yellow alert)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
If someone agrees with what I say, I'd like to know why - same with disagreements. The system doesn't promote constructive discussion, or any discussion at all for that matter.
(But hey, I could have just left a down vote here instead of this answer and left it at that. See what I mean?
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If I don't deem a discussion worthy to post something in I move on. I don't think we need a popular vote on everything, we already have polls.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Hmmm, that was before Off Topic/Insightful/Vote Down/Vote Up/Awesome/LOL reaction buttons....
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If you can't be bothered to write a few sentences in reply I don't really care what you think of my posts.
Like Reddit it just encourages laziness and censorship and adds nothing for interaction.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!