Starfleet General order 24

talonxv

This is an actual serious question to some people who scream bloody murder that Starfleet is not a military.

Why would a peaceful organization even have General Order 24? Oh and what is it? This is taken straight from Memory Alpha. And the two times it shows up is TOS(but a case could be made for Sisko when he was hunting down Eddington).

But here it is and I quote:
General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet. This order has been given by Captain Garth on Antos IV and Captain Kirk on Eminiar VII. On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled. (TOS: "Whom Gods Destroy", "A Taste of Armageddon")
Garth may have explained the spirit of the order when he suggested he gave the order because "I could say they were actively hostile towards the Federation."
The only recorded instances of General Order 24 actually being carried out are the first issue of the Gold Key Star Trek comic series: "The Planet of No Return", and the novel Reap the Whirlwind in the Star Trek: Vanguard series.

That above is Star Fleet General Order 24.

Here's the link:
Starfleet_General_Orders_and_Regulations

So again I ask. Why in the name of HELL would a peaceful organization allow a general order to exterminate all life on a planet?

Someone answer me that one?

tyler002

General Order 24 was created back before Starfleet forgot the rest of the universe isn't a land of sunshine and rainbows.

Military or not, peaceful or not, Starfleet are still the defenders of the Federation. They would need to be prepared for any possible situation, no matter how unlikely or distasteful it may see it.

psiameese

• Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. [everybody looks at her] It's the only way to be sure."

From the hip I could see that General Order being useful in context to a situation like, say, Colony LV-426, in the Aliens film. Not Star Trek, I do realize. However, if Starfleet/the Federation came across something as deadly? Something like General Order 24 could be a practical option under that circumstance. An extreme option for an extreme situation.

thevampinator

I'm guessing if there is such a hostile speices that there is no way to be at peace with them they only attack and attack time and time again. This might be a order put in case Starfleet ever came across something like what the alliance is coming across right now the Hurq and they had no choice but to destroy a planet to stop such a threat. I would say it would only be the last resort of a last resort option. Given starfleet and the federation would typically not do something like that it would have to be done under very intense circumstances. Like they tried to do wit the iconains when they when they went back in time and was going to wipe them all out. But instead they didn't they choose another way and it ended peacefully.
So its there for just those reasons when no other solution can be found. I doubt the Federation has ever had to use it.

potasssium

It also exists for the purpose of being a threat or option even if never used. It's kind of a Bluff card.

thevampinator

potasssium wrote: »

It also exists for the purpose of being a threat or option even if never used. It's kind of a Bluff card.

Exactly, kinda like nukes in real life. I'm guessing no one really follows through with it. But its there in case of something like the Xenomorphs from aliens they could use it to wipe them all out. There might be times when it came close to being used. But only as a very last resort option when no other means would work.

sevenofnine13141

In other words, General Order 24 was only to be used in very very specific situations, it was also used as a deterrence. General Order 24 was basically created as a sort of a last resort thing for stopping threats that could endanger the entire Federation or even worse, the entire galaxy. So Starfleet pretty much takes those kinds of threats VERY seriously, hence the existence of the General Order.

talonxv

> @psiameese said:
> * Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. [everybody looks at her] It's the only way to be sure."
>
>
> From the hip I could see that General Order being useful in context to a situation like, say, Colony LV-472, in the Aliens film. Not Star Trek, I do realize. However, if Starfleet/the Federation came across something as deadly? Something like General Order 24 could be a practical option under that circumstance. An extreme option for an extreme situation.

And in that situation who was going to carry that out? A colonial survey and exploration team or a squad of colonial marines?

Hence my question. Is Starfleet with that kind of General Order around a peaceful exploration outfit or a military that happens to do peaceful missions?

sevenofnine13141

Starfleet is neither a full blown peacekeeper force like the UNPK nor is it an actual military like the USN, but it's more of a paramilitary organization under the direction of the Federation Council with a military style rank system, General orders and all that, but it is not a full on military. It's a paramilitary with the goal of space exploration carried over from UESPA and UE Starfleet. Basically it's NASA, UNPK, and USN all combined together. It does not completely fit the definition of a true military, but it comes pretty darn close to it.

legendarylycan

add to that the definition of 'military' isn't the same in the 23rd century onward as it is today

as for the order itself...it seems to be the kind of thing that might get invoked against the borg and one of their assimilated worlds​​

psiameese

talonxv wrote: »

And in that situation who was going to carry that out? A colonial survey and exploration team or a squad of colonial marines?

Hence my question. Is Starfleet with that kind of General Order around a peaceful exploration outfit or a military that happens to do peaceful missions?

It's the same peacekeeping armada who arms its exploration starships with state-of-the-art weaponry. As exploration can be dangerous in unexpected ways. Of course, sciencing ones way out is preferable. But may not always bear fruit.

Now we know that General Order is little extrapolated upon in the filmed canon. But we can speculate that canonically Starfleet had a previous experience in which the topmost level of the Federation felt it was necessary. For any other Captain to implement as ordered. Can a Captain - like Kirk - order such a thing himself? Obviously, yes. Because he actually gave the order. Hence, it's on the books.

talonxv

Well here's a silly question and it's too bad TOS was first. If Ent was first and the MACOs endured, could we have seen the MACO as the military arm while Starfleet did the more exploratory side?

Just a random thought.

rattler2

Its possible to consider that strike team Kirk led to Nimbus III as a successor to the MACOs.

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legendarylycan

that virus already existed in stargate...it was called replicators​​

jonsills

psiameese wrote: »

• Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. [everybody looks at her] It's the only way to be sure."

FWIW, when Ripley said that, she was quoting the advice she'd gotten earlier from the one Colonial Marine who survived the mission (I can't recall the name right now - I want to say Hicks? - but on the other hand I don't care enough to go look it up). So it's still a military-type decision.

(It was also the correct one. If it had been implemented when first suggested, the movie would have been over quickly and much of the squad would still be alive.)

rattler2

Well... blame Wayland-Yutani for the deaths of the Sulaco crew.

talonxv

> @rattler2 said:
> Well... blame Wayland-Yutani for the deaths of the Sulaco crew.

No kidding.

rattler2

I also blame Wey-Yu for the Sephora as well, if anyone is familiar with Aliens: Colonial Marines. Mediocre game, but at least it retconned Hicks' death.

Hell... Wey-Yu is responsible for the Nostromo as well. And they've gotten away with it for a LOOOOOOONG time.

talonxv

> @rattler2 said:
> I also blame Wey-Yu for the Sephora as well, if anyone is familiar with Aliens: Colonial Marines. Mediocre game, but at least it retconned Hicks' death.
>
> Hell... Wey-Yu is responsible for the Nostromo as well. And they've gotten away with it for a LOOOOOOONG time.

They've done worse. Remeber Aliens vs Predator Requiem? Wy-Yu nuked a town.

evilmark444

jonsills wrote: »

psiameese wrote: »

• Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. [everybody looks at her] It's the only way to be sure."

FWIW, when Ripley said that, she was quoting the advice she'd gotten earlier from the one Colonial Marine who survived the mission (I can't recall the name right now - I want to say Hicks? - but on the other hand I don't care enough to go look it up). So it's still a military-type decision.

(It was also the correct one. If it had been implemented when first suggested, the movie would have been over quickly and much of the squad would still be alive.)

Actually, Ripley suggested it first, and Hicks repeated it after Burke tried to argue against it

rattler2

talonxv wrote: »

They've done worse. Remeber Aliens vs Predator Requiem? Wy-Yu nuked a town.

ACTUALLY... I think that was just the US Military. Back then Weyland Corp (Most likely the precursor to Weyland Industries) and Yutani weren't merged. Hell... by the time of Prometheus, Weyland was still independant. It had to be sometime between Alien: Covenant and Alien where the two merged.

lordrezeon

Starfleets status as a military organization fluctuates depending on whom you ask.

Kirk was quite open that he was a soldier and made no excuses or apologies about it. Picard on the other hand was a bit of a propagandist and recited the Federations official line with utter conviction. Sisko clearly viewed himself as a soldier and seemed to rather enjoy it as well. Janeway on the other hand was quite dogmatic when it came to official Federation policy, even if she was a hypocrite when it suited her. Archer gets a pass as he actually started as more an astronaut than a soldier, however in later seasons he lamented that and took more of a militant stance on Starfleet's role.

In story the Federation's official stance is that Starfleet is not a military organization, even though it performs every function of one. However it should be noted that we never really see the Federation outside the perspective of Starfleet, this gives us a very one sided picture of how the Federation functions.

Over the years we have seen many examples of the Federation making claims that aren't backed up by the reality on the ground. For example Nimbus III (from ST5) had on screen advertisements showing it as a thriving garden paradise but was in reality a failed wasteland shanty town. Tasha Yar's entire backstory pretty much spits in the face of the Federation's claims of being a post scarcity utopia.

jonsills

lordrezeon wrote: »

Tasha Yar's entire backstory pretty much spits in the face of the Federation's claims of being a post scarcity utopia.

See Sisko's "saints in paradise" rant, from DS9: "The Maquis, Pt II".

evilmark444

rattler2 wrote: »

talonxv wrote: »

They've done worse. Remeber Aliens vs Predator Requiem? Wy-Yu nuked a town.

ACTUALLY... I think that was just the US Military. Back then Weyland Corp (Most likely the precursor to Weyland Industries) and Yutani weren't merged. Hell... by the time of Prometheus, Weyland was still independant. It had to be sometime between Alien: Covenant and Alien where the two merged.

AvP and AvP: R are not canon. If only they had done the right thing and set those movies after Aliens instead of modern day, they could have been a lot better if they'd done that.

rattler2

evilmark444 wrote: »

AvP and AvP: R are not canon. If only they had done the right thing and set those movies after Aliens instead of modern day, they could have been a lot better if they'd done that.

Well... here's the kicker. Apparently the upcoming Predator movie may have nods or references to the previous 5 movies. As we know there was Predator, Predator 2, and Predators. Where's the missing two? AvP and AvP:R. We're probably gonna end up with some weird split where AvP is canon to Predator, but not Alien.

theraven2378

I highly doubt the Federation would do exterminatus type operations, they don't have the backbone to do what is needed to eliminate threats to life.

Take the Borg for example, the Federation would not destroy an assimilated world even if it became a direct threat. Now compare that to the Terran Empire (Imperial General Order 4, any advanced species that is a threat to the Terran supremacy are to be exterminated without question).

starswordc

Thing to remember: for Starfleet, being a "defense" organization isn't a euphemism, it's their actual philosophy. They're not in the business of conquest or regime change, and they also have general orders such as Directive 010 saying that you must exhaust all peaceful means of resolving a confrontation before using force.

But, and it's a big "but", at the end of the day Starfleet IS the Federation's war-fighting organization, and there is conceivably a limited set of circumstances where glassing the planet is the preferable option.

What I find more disturbing isn't that GO24 exists, but rather that, based on "A Taste of Armageddon", it can apparently be enacted or at the very least threatened on the sole authority of a mere captain of a ship, without needing authorization from the civilian government. Something like that very nearly started World War III during the Cuban Missile Crisis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_B-59

> @theraven2378 said:
> I highly doubt the Federation would do exterminatus type operations, they don't have the backbone to do what is needed to eliminate threats to life.
>
> Take the Borg for example, the Federation would not destroy an assimilated world even if it became a direct threat. Now compare that to the Terran Empire (Imperial General Order 4, any advanced species that is a threat to the Terran supremacy are to be exterminated without question).

You might want to check your facts on that: in "Descent", Admiral Nechayeva gave Picard a direct order that he was to do exactly that to the Borg if the opportunity presented itself.

theraven2378

starswordc wrote: »

Thing to remember: for Starfleet, being a "defense" organization isn't a euphemism, it's their actual philosophy. They're not in the business of conquest or regime change, and they also have general orders such as Directive 010 saying that you must exhaust all peaceful means of resolving a confrontation before using force.

But, and it's a big "but", at the end of the day Starfleet IS the Federation's war-fighting organization, and there is conceivably a limited set of circumstances where glassing the planet is the preferable option.

What I find more disturbing isn't that GO24 exists, but rather that, based on "A Taste of Armageddon", it can apparently be enacted or at the very least threatened on the sole authority of a mere captain of a ship, without needing authorization from the civilian government. Something like that very nearly started World War III during the Cuban Missile Crisis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_B-59

> @theraven2378 said:
> I highly doubt the Federation would do exterminatus type operations, they don't have the backbone to do what is needed to eliminate threats to life.
>
> Take the Borg for example, the Federation would not destroy an assimilated world even if it became a direct threat. Now compare that to the Terran Empire (Imperial General Order 4, any advanced species that is a threat to the Terran supremacy are to be exterminated without question).

You might want to check your facts on that: in "Descent", Admiral Nechayeva gave Picard a direct order that he was to do exactly that to the Borg if the opportunity presented itself.

Nechayev was not armed with all the facts, thankfully Picard never carried the order

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theraven2378

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYPSg-Ab7Dc
This is how you do General Order 24