No, she's Malaysian by nationality, i.e. she's born there.
Which makes her Malaysian.
Did you read the rest of the post or even the first one you replied to.
The argument was she can't play an ethnically Japanese character because she's Malaysian (i.e. looks like a native Malay). Or at least I assume it was that because otherwise the implication is that people cannot be born outside of their ethnic backgrounds region of origin.
Linda Park is ethnically Korean and can play an ethnically Japanese character so Michelle Yeoh, who is ethnically Chinese, can also play an ethnically Japanese. The fact that Park is American by nationality and Yeoh is Malaysian by nationality are irrelevant as nationality is not an appearance.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Did you read the rest of the post or even the first one you replied to.
Yes, I did. I'm just pointing out where the actress was born, which is what origin most people will equate their nationality (not genetics) to. I understand people can a genetic ethnicity different than their country of birth.
I said 'the fact she's Malaysian by nationality is irrelevant', I didn't say she wasn't, I just went on to talk about other factors I thought were more important to the point.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
@artan42: I meant Chinese-Malaysian in the same sense we in the United States alternately call black people "African-American" (American of African descent, Malaysian of Chinese descent, you see?). Or the way I might say that I'm Anglo-American (being of mostly English, Welsh, and Scots descent; there's also some Dutchmen and Ashenazim in there somewhere).
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
@starswordc
When did you get a mod hat? *confused*
Baddmoonrizin approached me about becoming a moderator last month. I started this afternoon.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
^Joining. With myself and darkbladejk, we now have three moderators, plus Kael, the admin.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Just to add to the above discussion, Mark Dacascos has portrayed many different races and nationalities over the course of his career. Claudia Christian isn't Russian, but Susan Ivanova (should be Ivanovna, but meh, details) is definitely one of The Matriarchs of Sci-Fi. A counter-example, would be how in the script of Pulp Fiction, Tim Roth's character is soecified as having a working-class English accent, and Tim Roth is indeed English (but Tarantino very likely wrote that character/casting with Roth in mind, due to their work on Reservoir Dogs)
Over-analysing due to Identity Politics just kills the idea of suspending disbelieve, and just accepting that the character being portrayed, is as portrayed, not having to be tied to the specifics of the actor playing the part.
I wouldn't be surprized if the Emperor/ess was somehow related to Hoshi, because that's Trek likes to roll. Equally, I wouldn't be surprized if there was no familial connection, and she's simply the Emperor/ess, due to plot contrivance for the Burnham Connection...
#LookingForwardToGettingAiriamInGame
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Huh, I thought something was different, I thought it was having to read this on mobile for the past few days where the names are all squished up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Just to add to the above discussion, Mark Dacascos has portrayed many different races and nationalities over the course of his career. Claudia Christian isn't Russian, but Susan Ivanova (should be Ivanovna, but meh, details) is definitely one of The Matriarchs of Sci-Fi. A counter-example, would be how in the script of Pulp Fiction, Tim Roth's character is soecified as having a working-class English accent, and Tim Roth is indeed English (but Tarantino very likely wrote that character/casting with Roth in mind, due to their work on Reservoir Dogs)
Over-analysing due to Identity Politics just kills the idea of suspending disbelieve, and just accepting that the character being portrayed, is as portrayed, not having to be tied to the specifics of the actor playing the part.
True, but in this case a character's nationality/ethnicity/whatever you want to call it is, in fact, canonically known. That goes for both Mirror!Sato (Japanese from Kyoto, though played by a Korean-American) and Prime!Georgiou (Chinese-Malaysian played by a Chinese-Malaysian). And given the way the mirror universe works we can reasonably assume the same for their respective counterparts unless told otherwise.
It's got a lot more to do with avoiding lazy stereotyping than anything resembling identity politics: e.g. I've got a good friend at my day job who's from Bulgaria who would very much not appreciate being mistaken for a Russian given certain happenings of the last century. ETA: Never mind the abomination against First Peoples that is Chakotay...
I wouldn't be surprized if the Emperor/ess was somehow related to Hoshi, because that's Trek likes to roll. Equally, I wouldn't be surprized if there was no familial connection, and she's simply the Emperor/ess, due to plot contrivance for the Burnham Connection...
#LookingForwardToGettingAiriamInGame
With the Terrans it doesn't even qualify as contrived. Georgiou (or an ancestor) killed Sato (or a descendant) for her job. The end.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Just to add to the above discussion, Mark Dacascos has portrayed many different races and nationalities over the course of his career. Claudia Christian isn't Russian, but Susan Ivanova (should be Ivanovna, but meh, details) is definitely one of The Matriarchs of Sci-Fi. A counter-example, would be how in the script of Pulp Fiction, Tim Roth's character is soecified as having a working-class English accent, and Tim Roth is indeed English (but Tarantino very likely wrote that character/casting with Roth in mind, due to their work on Reservoir Dogs)
Over-analysing due to Identity Politics just kills the idea of suspending disbelieve, and just accepting that the character being portrayed, is as portrayed, not having to be tied to the specifics of the actor playing the part.
True, but in this case a character's nationality/ethnicity/whatever you want to call it is, in fact, canonically known. That goes for both Mirror!Sato (Japanese from Kyoto, though played by a Korean-American) and Prime!Georgiou (Chinese-Malaysian played by a Chinese-Malaysian). And given the way the mirror universe works we can reasonably assume the same for their respective counterparts unless told otherwise.
It's got a lot more to do with avoiding lazy stereotyping than anything resembling identity politics: e.g. I've got a good friend at my day job who's from Bulgaria who would very much not appreciate being mistaken for a Russian given certain happenings of the last century.
Yes, in the Georgiou instance, the character and actress absolutely are aligned, but in general, that doesn't need to be rigidly adhered to, as with the examples of Mark Dacascos, and Claudia Christian. And absolutely so, it was absolutely lazy stereotyping, to give a character of Oriental Origin, command of the USS Shenzhou ( Shenzhou ) USS AnythingElse wouldn't've been so noticeable, but that, that was 'trying too hard', and what I mean by trying to appeal to Identity Politics. Compared to say, Vice Admiral Paris, in Beyond, who was an amazing homage to the Paris family
ETA: Never mind the abomination against First Peoples that is Chakotay...
*shudder* Yeah, that whole fiasco was an insult, especially how their 'expert consultant' turned out to be a fraud... :-\ Ironically, there were things I actually liked about Chakotay, such as his Renaissance Man-esque interests in anthropology, and that he was (initially) shown as being a spiritual dude. Many missed opportunities there... I thought it was a cool touch how, in The Motion Picture, when Kirk gives the briefing, there's a split-second shot of an officer wearing a Native American necklace
I wouldn't be surprized if the Emperor/ess was somehow related to Hoshi, because that's Trek likes to roll. Equally, I wouldn't be surprized if there was no familial connection, and she's simply the Emperor/ess, due to plot contrivance for the Burnham Connection...
#LookingForwardToGettingAiriamInGame
With the Terrans it doesn't even qualify as contrived. Georgiou (or an ancestor) killed Sato (or a descendant) for her job. The end.
Yeah, with the Mirror Universe, anything's possible...
*ExtraForTheEditMonsterDeathToTheEditMonster
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's got a lot more to do with avoiding lazy stereotyping than anything resembling identity politics: e.g. I've got a good friend at my day job who's from Bulgaria who would very much not appreciate being mistaken for a Russian given certain happenings of the last century.
At the very least, Georgiou would be Sato's granddaughter, if they do turn out to be related. Yes, Sato is Japanese, however that doesn't mean her spouse was, or her child's spouse.
Yes, in the Georgiou instance, the character and actress absolutely are aligned, but in general, that doesn't need to be rigidly adhered to, as with the examples of Mark Dacascos, and Claudia Christian.
Well, I've pointed out a couple times that there's actually only one Star Trek series so far where all the human main cast matched their actors' origins (that being DS9). Hell in DSC, Michael Burnham isn't even from Earth, and while I like to think of Captain Lorca as being Spanish* his origin isn't specified either in the series or on StarTrek.com.
* This is because of his name and me liking the idea of a Spanish captain. (Despite Isaacs affecting an American accent, canon Starfleet is way overloaded with Americans already IMHO.) That the actor is an ethnic Jew doesn't necessarily detract from the theory either: the character could be of Sephardic (Iberian Jewish) descent.
And absolutely so, it was absolutely lazy stereotyping, to give a character of Oriental Origin, command of the USS Shenzhou ( Shenzhou ) USS AnythingElse wouldn't've been so noticeable, but that, that was 'trying too hard', and what I mean by trying to appeal to Identity Politics.
That, I don't actually have a problem with. I mean hell, I write a Bajoran who commands a GCS called USS Bajor. You diversify the names enough, you're going to naturally increase the odds of somebody being assigned a ship whose name matches their background (and for all we know, Georgiou requested that assignment like my Bajoran character Kanril Eleya did hers). Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek.
I was thinking more of unwarranted lumping-together of peoples, which is why I brought up Bulgarians versus Russians (the one ruled by the other as a puppet state for forty-four years), and Chakotay. He's a mishmash of indigenous traditions from the Plains to South America to New Zealand (because VOY's "native cultures advisor" was a fraudster named Jamake Highwater who had no actual expertise on First Peoples).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yes, in the Georgiou instance, the character and actress absolutely are aligned, but in general, that doesn't need to be rigidly adhered to, as with the examples of Mark Dacascos, and Claudia Christian.
Well, I've pointed out a couple times that there's actually only one Star Trek series so far where all the human main cast matched their actors' origins (that being DS9).
Which is good, and as it should be: Best actor for the role, as described by the character's notes Now, that's not to say that a project can't have some 'wiggle room', for example, I've heard that Mickey Rourke was originally listed to play Axel Foley, in what was supposed to be more of an action drama.
Hell in DSC, Michael Burnham isn't even from Earth, and while I like to think of Captain Lorca as being Spanish* his origin isn't specified either in the series or on StarTrek.com.
* This is because of his name and me liking the idea of a Spanish captain. (Despite Isaacs affecting an American accent, canon Starfleet is way overloaded with Americans already IMHO.)
Which isn't surprizing, given that it's always been an American-produced production By the same token, one could argue that The Bill, or London's Burning, is way overloaded with English characters
That the actor is an ethnic Jew doesn't necessarily detract from the theory either: the character could be of Sephardic (Iberian Jewish) descent.
That certainly wouldn't be implausible, but I'd wager it's also more thought than the writers of Discovery have given the character
And absolutely so, it was absolutely lazy stereotyping, to give a character of Oriental Origin, command of the USS Shenzhou ( Shenzhou ) USS AnythingElse wouldn't've been so noticeable, but that, that was 'trying too hard', and what I mean by trying to appeal to Identity Politics.
That, I don't actually have a problem with. I mean hell, I write a Bajoran who commands a GCS called USS Bajor.
So that's confirmation bias on your part, because it reinforces your choice As patrickngo and I have said about Discovery before, stuff like this, it isn't subtle. TOS was good because it was subtle, and showed, rather than told. I only recently, discovered that the character of Janice Rand, was named for Ayn Rand, because Gene Roddenberry loved her writing
You diversify the names enough, you're going to naturally increase the odds of somebody being assigned a ship whose name matches their background (and for all we know, Georgiou requested that assignment like my Bajoran character Kanril Eleya did hers).
When looked at from that perspective, that's true. And yes, it can be rationalized, but that doesn't stop it from being heavy-handed. Realistically speaking, Starfleet ships should have had names from right across the Federation (and in some cases they did) But IMO, there were times when it did come across as heavy handed, such as Captain Solok, with his all-Vulcan crew, aboard the USS T'Kumbra Personally, I thought that his Vulcan supremacist attitudes could have treated way more subtly, having him serving with a less homogenous crew, and being eventually exposed in his attitudes, rather than what they went with. And I feel the naming of the Shenzhou is another of those instances. And, don't forget, the captain doesn't choose the name of their ship. We get to, but for the most part, they don't
Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek.
I don't disagree with the point, but equally, I don't take issue with it The writers wrote what they wrote, and I would speculate, didn't want to risk either alienating the audience, or making the show's Alien races seem less exotic. For example, when a Bedouin is just as exotic to Joe Sixpack as an Orion, what distinguishes them? Starfleet's charter (if we go by the credits) was 'seeking out strange new worlds, and new civilizations', not 'look at what's right here on our own planet'
I was thinking more of unwarranted lumping-together of peoples, which is why I brought up Bulgarians versus Russians (the one ruled by the other as a puppet state for forty-four years), and Chakotay. He's a mishmash of indigenous traditions from the Plains to South America to New Zealand (because VOY's "native cultures advisor" was a fraudster named Jamake Highwater who had no actual expertise on First Peoples).
To address that as two points: And so having a Captain of Oriental Origin, commanding a space ship with a Chinese name (which, is pretty much the Chinese word for 'space ship') I would consider lumping and conspicuous, rather than subtle
And Chakotay, yeah, as mentioned, the advisor was a fraud, so what was done to try and give Chakotay that 'ethnic edge', was a crock. But it wasn't intentional on the part of the writers. When they weren't trying to go with Specifics, I thought that they wrote him well, such as the episode which showed him going on an expedition with his father when he was younger, as that showed how the angry young man, matured. When they tried to show his Native Practices, I felt it came across as heavy-handed. I'd have to note though, that as the series progressed, they focussed less on those aspects of the character, as they found their way with him. I guess all I can say in that instance, is, as Sisko said about baseball: Not everyone hits a home-run, sometimes he'll swing and miss. Trek has always had both good and bad content...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I apologize in advance this became a little longer than I was planning.
Starfleet ships do have names from across the Federation. However, to me it seems obvious that we see names from IRL that have the weight of history behind them simply for our recognition of historical and geographical things. It's for familiarity and honors our past and Earth:
Enterprise; Excelsior; Yamato; Saratoga; Yorktown; Rio Grande; Voyager; Odyssey; Agamemnon; Excalibur; Aries; Huron; Bradbury obviously we know this list goes on and on with the occasional name thrown in from Federation history like Archer. Defiant and Valiant.
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Concerning the talk about Star Trek throwing a mish-mash of cultures or unwarranted lumping of peoples together on a ship. It doesn't have anything to do with not alienating audiences. In fact if you notice the individual cultures of humans in Star Trek isn't usually the major focus of the characters other than for backstory and additional narrative. The point of mixing various races from Earth and having them interact with aliens is the point of the entire Star Trek premise.
"...to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where nowhere no one has gone before."
and nicely added in Undiscovered Country
"They will continue the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered countries, boldly going where no man... where no *one* has gone before." -Kirk
It is meant to show how there is no racial conflict on Earth at all anymore and it's completely natural to see different human races working together as one people. And that we've matured enough to even accept and pay no menacing heed to the differences between us and alien races as well. Humans and aliens alike all refer to humans as human (or Huu-mon ;-) ) and not by their human racial origin.
The reason this discussion is happening is simply because of our preconceived notions and simple prejudices IRL that the writer's choice on human race really matters, when it doesn't. And by drawing lines that may be construed, nowadays as racially wrong only serves to underline that we are nowhere near the level of enlightenment that the humans of the Federation are. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just reminds us that we have to remember to not focus on such things and instead on the issues that truly matter.
If you think about it, would any of us expect that Picard, Riker, Sisko, Janeway, Chakotay, Archer, or Kirk would ever even think about there being a racial issue with an Oriental captain being in charge of a ship with an Oriental name? No. That sort of thinking wouldn't even enter into their minds. Its as alien to them as their technology would be to us here IRL.
One of the most important things about Star Trek to keep in mind is that, even though it is about showing us strange new worlds and new civilizations, it really isn't about that. The universe is an allegory for our real world. And it shows us more about the issues and conflicts in our world and past than it shows alien worlds. Its a show about morality, understanding, acceptance and questioning our behavior in certain situations and topics here on Earth. The exploration is actually about how to explore the issues faced by humanity in IRL.
I just happen to be watching TNG: Gambit part 2 right now. It's at the ending scene on the planet.
"...I can see the symbol on that third artifact, and It is the Vulcan symbol of Peace standing between the symbols for War and Death. It's a warning that the power of the resonator can be overcome by peace. Empty your mind of violent thoughts!...Think Tallera. 2000 years ago your people were being consumed by war. But when peace came to Vulcan the resonator became useless. That's why it was dismantled...You were right Tallera. The resonator cannot be stopped by phasers and shields but it can be defeated by peace."
Thought that went along with my final point, that's why I added it.
lols! Data just escorted Riker to the brig jokingly at Picard's suggestion. Great episode!
I apologize in advance this became a little longer than I was planning.
Starfleet ships do have names from across the Federation. However, to me it seems obvious that we see names from IRL that have the weight of history behind them simply for our recognition of historical and geographical things. It's for familiarity and honors our past and Earth:
Enterprise; Excelsior; Yamato; Saratoga; Yorktown; Rio Grande; Voyager; Odyssey; Agamemnon; Excalibur; Aries; Huron; Bradbury obviously we know this list goes on and on with the occasional name thrown in from Federation history like Archer. Defiant and Valiant.
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Concerning the talk about Star Trek throwing a mish-mash of cultures or unwarranted lumping of peoples together on a ship. It doesn't have anything to do with not alienating audiences. In fact if you notice the individual cultures of humans in Star Trek isn't usually the major focus of the characters other than for backstory and additional narrative. The point of mixing various races from Earth and having them interact with aliens is the point of the entire Star Trek premise.
"...to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where nowhere no one has gone before."
and nicely added in Undiscovered Country
"They will continue the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered countries, boldly going where no man... where no *one* has gone before." -Kirk
It is meant to show how there is no racial conflict on Earth at all anymore and it's completely natural to see different human races working together as one people. And that we've matured enough to even accept and pay no menacing heed to the differences between us and alien races as well. Humans and aliens alike all refer to humans as human (or Huu-mon ;-) ) and not by their human racial origin.
The reason this discussion is happening is simply because of our preconceived notions and simple prejudices IRL that the writer's choice on human race really matters, when it doesn't. And by drawing lines that may be construed, nowadays as racially wrong only serves to underline that we are nowhere near the level of enlightenment that the humans of the Federation are. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just reminds us that we have to remember to not focus on such things and instead on the issues that truly matter.
If you think about it, would any of us expect that Picard, Riker, Sisko, Janeway, Chakotay, Archer, or Kirk would ever even think about there being a racial issue with an Oriental captain being in charge of a ship with an Oriental name? No. That sort of thinking wouldn't even enter into their minds. Its as alien to them as their technology would be to us here IRL.
One of the most important things about Star Trek to keep in mind is that, even though it is about showing us strange new worlds and new civilizations, it really isn't about that. The universe is an allegory for our real world. And it shows us more about the issues and conflicts in our world and past than it shows alien worlds. Its a show about morality, understanding, acceptance and questioning our behavior in certain situations and topics here on Earth. The exploration is actually about how to explore the issues faced by humanity in IRL.
I just happen to be watching TNG: Gambit part 2 right now. It's at the ending scene on the planet.
"...I can see the symbol on that third artifact, and It is the Vulcan symbol of Peace standing between the symbols for War and Death. It's a warning that the power of the resonator can be overcome by peace. Empty your mind of violent thoughts!...Think Tallera. 2000 years ago your people were being consumed by war. But when peace came to Vulcan the resonator became useless. That's why it was dismantled...You were right Tallera. The resonator cannot be stopped by phasers and shields but it can be defeated by peace."
Thought that went along with my final point, that's why I added it.
lols! Data just escorted Riker to the brig jokingly at Picard's suggestion. Great episode!
That's a fantastic post, thank you, and welcome to the forum
You're quite right, on the philosophical level, it does serve to remind us that we aren't there yet, and have something to strive for.
On the level of analysis, while you're quite right that Picard, Riker, Sisko, Janeway, Chakotay, Archer, or Kirk wouldn't ever even think about there being a racial issue with an Oriental captain being in charge of a ship with an Oriental name, but the fact that the writers specifically chose it, shows that they do, or they would have chose something else. Not something as tongue-in-cheek as an unmissably-close-to-the-captain, regional word for 'spaceship', which is incongruous to all the other ship names shown in Discovery. USS Spaceship. RRW Khina, would be the Romulan equivalent. And is that the best, most creative name they could think of? Of course not. So it was a joke, but a joke which shows the painfully deliberate thought process behind it
Thanks again for the thought-provoking post
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Alex Siddig is from Sudan originally, but he was raised in the UK until his breakout 1992-1993 with his first film and Star Trek DS9. If anything Bashir is from an African background rather than a middle eastern background.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Alex Siddig is from Sudan originally, but he was raised in the UK until his breakout 1992-1993 with his first film and Star Trek DS9. If anything Bashir is from an African background rather than a middle eastern background.
His father was played by an Indian actor if I remeber correctly.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Alex Siddig is from Sudan originally, but he was raised in the UK until his breakout 1992-1993 with his first film and Star Trek DS9. If anything Bashir is from an African background rather than a middle eastern background.
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Alex Siddig is from Sudan originally, but he was raised in the UK until his breakout 1992-1993 with his first film and Star Trek DS9. If anything Bashir is from an African background rather than a middle eastern background.
His father was played by an Indian actor if I remeber correctly.
As an unconnected-but-not-irrelevant tangent, in 3001: The Final Odyssey, the statement is made, that a persons name (given or familial) no longer necessarily had any connection to a person's race or ethnicity.
Dr. Bashir's father's name was Richard, and his mother's name was Amsha (although in a first draft of the script, it was 'Mariel') Although there's no canon biographical information about the racial or regional origins of the family (other than his and his father's English accents (and there are many established racial groups within the UK) the Bashir family's origins could be seen as an example of what 3001 postulated
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Alex Siddig is from Sudan originally, but he was raised in the UK until his breakout 1992-1993 with his first film and Star Trek DS9. If anything Bashir is from an African background rather than a middle eastern background.
Yes I agree about Alexander Siddig's background IRL. I was just pointing out that the character of Julian Bashir and his family originated from from either Pakistain or India. That's all I meant about that point...Just took a look. And yep the possibility of his character being Sudanese was also suggested due to Alex's nationality. But it was never actually specified by the writers, which in, IMO, itself is perfect for Star Trek. He definitely grew up in the UK though as his accent and choice of words seem to prove.
That's a fantastic post, thank you, and welcome to the forum
You're quite right, on the philosophical level, it does serve to remind us that we aren't there yet, and have something to strive for.
On the level of analysis, while you're quite right that Picard, Riker, Sisko, Janeway, Chakotay, Archer, or Kirk wouldn't ever even think about there being a racial issue with an Oriental captain being in charge of a ship with an Oriental name, but the fact that the writers specifically chose it, shows that they do, or they would have chose something else. Not something as tongue-in-cheek as an unmissably-close-to-the-captain, regional word for 'spaceship', which is incongruous to all the other ship names shown in Discovery. USS Spaceship. RRW Khina, would be the Romulan equivalent. And is that the best, most creative name they could think of? Of course not. So it was a joke, but a joke which shows the painfully deliberate thought process behind it
Thanks again for the thought-provoking post
Thanks for the compliment.
Ahh ok I get what you meant about the silliness of the Captain/Shipname. Totally agree in that sense. That's not much but is definitely and example of how much this show desperately should have had real Star Trek minds behind it like: Branon Braga; Rick Berman; Jeri Taylor, Michael Piller, Rene Echevarria, Ronald D. Moore, Joe Menosky, Hans Beimler and David Livingston to name...slightly more than a few.
Thanks for the compliment.
Ahh ok I get what you meant about the silliness of the Captain/Shipname. Totally agree in that sense. That's not much but is definitely and example of how much this show desperately should have had real Star Trek minds behind it like: Branon Braga; Rick Berman; Jeri Taylor, Michael Piller, Rene Echevarria, Ronald D. Moore, Joe Menosky, Hans Beimler and David Livingston to name...slightly more than a few.
You're very welcome
And re: the boldened text: Precisely
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Did you read the rest of the post or even the first one you replied to.
The argument was she can't play an ethnically Japanese character because she's Malaysian (i.e. looks like a native Malay). Or at least I assume it was that because otherwise the implication is that people cannot be born outside of their ethnic backgrounds region of origin.
Linda Park is ethnically Korean and can play an ethnically Japanese character so Michelle Yeoh, who is ethnically Chinese, can also play an ethnically Japanese. The fact that Park is American by nationality and Yeoh is Malaysian by nationality are irrelevant as nationality is not an appearance.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I said 'the fact she's Malaysian by nationality is irrelevant', I didn't say she wasn't, I just went on to talk about other factors I thought were more important to the point.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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When did you get a mod hat? *confused*
Baddmoonrizin approached me about becoming a moderator last month. I started this afternoon.
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You taking over for him, or just joining the team?
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Over-analysing due to Identity Politics just kills the idea of suspending disbelieve, and just accepting that the character being portrayed, is as portrayed, not having to be tied to the specifics of the actor playing the part.
I wouldn't be surprized if the Emperor/ess was somehow related to Hoshi, because that's Trek likes to roll. Equally, I wouldn't be surprized if there was no familial connection, and she's simply the Emperor/ess, due to plot contrivance for the Burnham Connection...
#LookingForwardToGettingAiriamInGame
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Huh, I thought something was different, I thought it was having to read this on mobile for the past few days where the names are all squished up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It's got a lot more to do with avoiding lazy stereotyping than anything resembling identity politics: e.g. I've got a good friend at my day job who's from Bulgaria who would very much not appreciate being mistaken for a Russian given certain happenings of the last century. ETA: Never mind the abomination against First Peoples that is Chakotay...
With the Terrans it doesn't even qualify as contrived. Georgiou (or an ancestor) killed Sato (or a descendant) for her job. The end.
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*shudder* Yeah, that whole fiasco was an insult, especially how their 'expert consultant' turned out to be a fraud... :-\ Ironically, there were things I actually liked about Chakotay, such as his Renaissance Man-esque interests in anthropology, and that he was (initially) shown as being a spiritual dude. Many missed opportunities there... I thought it was a cool touch how, in The Motion Picture, when Kirk gives the briefing, there's a split-second shot of an officer wearing a Native American necklace
Yeah, with the Mirror Universe, anything's possible...
*ExtraForTheEditMonsterDeathToTheEditMonster
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
At the very least, Georgiou would be Sato's granddaughter, if they do turn out to be related. Yes, Sato is Japanese, however that doesn't mean her spouse was, or her child's spouse.
Became Emperor after his predecessor was killed by his cooking?
* This is because of his name and me liking the idea of a Spanish captain. (Despite Isaacs affecting an American accent, canon Starfleet is way overloaded with Americans already IMHO.) That the actor is an ethnic Jew doesn't necessarily detract from the theory either: the character could be of Sephardic (Iberian Jewish) descent.
That, I don't actually have a problem with. I mean hell, I write a Bajoran who commands a GCS called USS Bajor. You diversify the names enough, you're going to naturally increase the odds of somebody being assigned a ship whose name matches their background (and for all we know, Georgiou requested that assignment like my Bajoran character Kanril Eleya did hers). Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek.
I was thinking more of unwarranted lumping-together of peoples, which is why I brought up Bulgarians versus Russians (the one ruled by the other as a puppet state for forty-four years), and Chakotay. He's a mishmash of indigenous traditions from the Plains to South America to New Zealand (because VOY's "native cultures advisor" was a fraudster named Jamake Highwater who had no actual expertise on First Peoples).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Which isn't surprizing, given that it's always been an American-produced production
That certainly wouldn't be implausible, but I'd wager it's also more thought than the writers of Discovery have given the character
So that's confirmation bias on your part, because it reinforces your choice
When looked at from that perspective, that's true. And yes, it can be rationalized, but that doesn't stop it from being heavy-handed. Realistically speaking, Starfleet ships should have had names from right across the Federation (and in some cases they did) But IMO, there were times when it did come across as heavy handed, such as Captain Solok, with his all-Vulcan crew, aboard the USS T'Kumbra Personally, I thought that his Vulcan supremacist attitudes could have treated way more subtly, having him serving with a less homogenous crew, and being eventually exposed in his attitudes, rather than what they went with. And I feel the naming of the Shenzhou is another of those instances. And, don't forget, the captain doesn't choose the name of their ship. We get to, but for the most part, they don't
I don't disagree with the point, but equally, I don't take issue with it
To address that as two points: And so having a Captain of Oriental Origin, commanding a space ship with a Chinese name (which, is pretty much the Chinese word for 'space ship') I would consider lumping and conspicuous, rather than subtle
And Chakotay, yeah, as mentioned, the advisor was a fraud, so what was done to try and give Chakotay that 'ethnic edge', was a crock. But it wasn't intentional on the part of the writers. When they weren't trying to go with Specifics, I thought that they wrote him well, such as the episode which showed him going on an expedition with his father when he was younger, as that showed how the angry young man, matured. When they tried to show his Native Practices, I felt it came across as heavy-handed. I'd have to note though, that as the series progressed, they focussed less on those aspects of the character, as they found their way with him. I guess all I can say in that instance, is, as Sisko said about baseball: Not everyone hits a home-run, sometimes he'll swing and miss. Trek has always had both good and bad content...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Starfleet ships do have names from across the Federation. However, to me it seems obvious that we see names from IRL that have the weight of history behind them simply for our recognition of historical and geographical things. It's for familiarity and honors our past and Earth:
Enterprise; Excelsior; Yamato; Saratoga; Yorktown; Rio Grande; Voyager; Odyssey; Agamemnon; Excalibur; Aries; Huron; Bradbury obviously we know this list goes on and on with the occasional name thrown in from Federation history like Archer. Defiant and Valiant.
"Besides, previous to this it was almost as if nowhere in Asia except Russia and Japan even existed in Star Trek..."
Completely a false thought. Harry Kim is Korean and Dr. Bashir's family origin is either Indian or Pakistani though his family may be from the UK hence the accent.
Concerning the talk about Star Trek throwing a mish-mash of cultures or unwarranted lumping of peoples together on a ship. It doesn't have anything to do with not alienating audiences. In fact if you notice the individual cultures of humans in Star Trek isn't usually the major focus of the characters other than for backstory and additional narrative. The point of mixing various races from Earth and having them interact with aliens is the point of the entire Star Trek premise.
"...to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where nowhere no one has gone before."
and nicely added in Undiscovered Country
"They will continue the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered countries, boldly going where no man... where no *one* has gone before." -Kirk
It is meant to show how there is no racial conflict on Earth at all anymore and it's completely natural to see different human races working together as one people. And that we've matured enough to even accept and pay no menacing heed to the differences between us and alien races as well. Humans and aliens alike all refer to humans as human (or Huu-mon ;-) ) and not by their human racial origin.
The reason this discussion is happening is simply because of our preconceived notions and simple prejudices IRL that the writer's choice on human race really matters, when it doesn't. And by drawing lines that may be construed, nowadays as racially wrong only serves to underline that we are nowhere near the level of enlightenment that the humans of the Federation are. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just reminds us that we have to remember to not focus on such things and instead on the issues that truly matter.
If you think about it, would any of us expect that Picard, Riker, Sisko, Janeway, Chakotay, Archer, or Kirk would ever even think about there being a racial issue with an Oriental captain being in charge of a ship with an Oriental name? No. That sort of thinking wouldn't even enter into their minds. Its as alien to them as their technology would be to us here IRL.
One of the most important things about Star Trek to keep in mind is that, even though it is about showing us strange new worlds and new civilizations, it really isn't about that. The universe is an allegory for our real world. And it shows us more about the issues and conflicts in our world and past than it shows alien worlds. Its a show about morality, understanding, acceptance and questioning our behavior in certain situations and topics here on Earth. The exploration is actually about how to explore the issues faced by humanity in IRL.
I just happen to be watching TNG: Gambit part 2 right now. It's at the ending scene on the planet.
"...I can see the symbol on that third artifact, and It is the Vulcan symbol of Peace standing between the symbols for War and Death. It's a warning that the power of the resonator can be overcome by peace. Empty your mind of violent thoughts!...Think Tallera. 2000 years ago your people were being consumed by war. But when peace came to Vulcan the resonator became useless. That's why it was dismantled...You were right Tallera. The resonator cannot be stopped by phasers and shields but it can be defeated by peace."
Thought that went along with my final point, that's why I added it.
lols! Data just escorted Riker to the brig jokingly at Picard's suggestion. Great episode!
That's a fantastic post, thank you, and welcome to the forum
You're quite right, on the philosophical level, it does serve to remind us that we aren't there yet, and have something to strive for.
On the level of analysis, while you're quite right that Picard, Riker, Sisko, Janeway, Chakotay, Archer, or Kirk wouldn't ever even think about there being a racial issue with an Oriental captain being in charge of a ship with an Oriental name, but the fact that the writers specifically chose it, shows that they do, or they would have chose something else. Not something as tongue-in-cheek as an unmissably-close-to-the-captain, regional word for 'spaceship', which is incongruous to all the other ship names shown in Discovery. USS Spaceship. RRW Khina, would be the Romulan equivalent. And is that the best, most creative name they could think of? Of course not. So it was a joke, but a joke which shows the painfully deliberate thought process behind it
Thanks again for the thought-provoking post
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Alex Siddig is from Sudan originally, but he was raised in the UK until his breakout 1992-1993 with his first film and Star Trek DS9. If anything Bashir is from an African background rather than a middle eastern background.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
His father was played by an Indian actor if I remeber correctly.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Dr. Bashir's father's name was Richard, and his mother's name was Amsha (although in a first draft of the script, it was 'Mariel') Although there's no canon biographical information about the racial or regional origins of the family (other than his and his father's English accents (and there are many established racial groups within the UK) the Bashir family's origins could be seen as an example of what 3001 postulated
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Yes I agree about Alexander Siddig's background IRL. I was just pointing out that the character of Julian Bashir and his family originated from from either Pakistain or India. That's all I meant about that point...Just took a look. And yep the possibility of his character being Sudanese was also suggested due to Alex's nationality. But it was never actually specified by the writers, which in, IMO, itself is perfect for Star Trek. He definitely grew up in the UK though as his accent and choice of words seem to prove.
You're very welcome
And re: the boldened text: Precisely
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth