What line of dialogue are you referring to in "Errand of Mercy"? My recollection is that Kirk says something to the effect of Klingons invading Federation territory and killing innocent civilians. Seems like that fits with what we saw in Discovery last night.
I believe the exact line was, at the very beginning of the episode: "And there it is... war. Nobody wanted it, but we got it anyway."
It just always felt like Trek's Cuban Missile Crisis to me, only it was averted thanks to the intervention of the Organians. They never reached that point before, and they never would. This is also why I don't think adopting the Axanar/Four-Years War idea as canon is a good idea, if you make the enemy the Klingons.
And, to be clear, I do think Discovery has a significant patch of canon to play within, given these perceived limitations established in "Errand of Mercy." Skirmishes and smaller conflicts are fine, IMO. I really like the notion of the Klingons falling off the galactic map for 100 years. All of that builds nicely into TOS, and specially, "Errand of Mercy."
I think Discovery's big mistake is that they decided to go to the ALL-OUT-WAR-CAPS-LOCK extreme. Thanks to last night's episode, I think they went WAY beyond the limitations the Organians established as reasons for stopping the conflict in the first place. The Organians didn't want the Federation fighting the Klingons BECAUSE the galaxy would be the steaming mess we saw in last night's episode.
More importantly. not only does it not mesh well with established canon, I just don't think they're doing the idea justice. (I mean, their MU storyline completely derailed the Klingon War story for four critical episodes!) We haven't seen the war in great detail at all (unlike the Dominion War, IMO), and we're now on the brink of TOTAL ANNIHILATION... yet, we know THAT won't happen, and the producers have explicitly said the Klingon War story ends in Season One.
We have one episode left. One. I don't see how they reconcile these two aspects, and do them (and the story) justice.
I don't believe Kirk's dialogue meant there was never any all-out conflict with the Klingons before, just that they had hoped to resolve the issues with the Klingons peacefully. His words can be interpreted many different ways. Again, he does mention later in the episode how the Klingons invaded Federation territory and killed a lot of people. Seems to me that is a bit more war-like than just political saber rattling.
Perhaps. And I’d even be willing to grant them that. I also want to see how they decide to end this, and I’m willing to hold final judgement on the season until it is actually over
Still, I think this aspect of the season is VERY under-developed, and that development could have gone a long way to forgive my issues with reconciling with canon.
Trek has always introduced ugly aliens to portray destructive ideologies. Why not this time, why the change? Why the setting? It makes no sense and that's my biggest problem with it. Klingons and Romulans always were flawed but in their core there always were at least individuals seeing reason, yet simply caught up or overburdened by circumstances. TUC did very well to portray that as did TOS with Romulans. Klingorcs have no redeeming qualities as all of them are mindless fanatics and the one uggo turned "pretty" who could have learned anything is a complete idiot who learned nothing but gets reduced to a sleeping cylon kind of looming threat over the rest of the show, because as a Klingorc it's only a matter of time once his rabid "fighting dog" mentality breaks through again. Voq wouldn't even use his position to advance the evul plot, he'd simply start biting people.
It all depends on whether cunning is something learnt or something born with. I suspect it is a bit of both. Romulans, in general, seem to be cunning while only a few Klingons are known to have any cunning. Voq is considered as part of the dregs of society so he never experienced the political intrigues of Klingon society as a youth. So it is likely that Voq or even most Klingons are not qualified to be a decent spy. Tyler would have been a better spy until he realized he was Voq. L'Rell would have been the better candidate to be a spy since she has the experience. Although, it might take until Season 2 or 3 before Discovery's crew realizes she is a Klingon. Discovery could have always added another character to perform the surgery which is the only justification that they used Voq instead of L'Rell.
Given how Klingons openly scorn subterfuge, it's possible many simply don't want to learn.
Which is why using Voq as a spy was such a poor choice. L'Rell would have been a far better choice, but Discovery had to use the lame excuse that L'Rell was the only one that could do the procedure.
The problem wasn't using Voq. The problem was using Ash Tyler as cover.
Their whole mental trickery didn't work because of Tyler developing a relationship with Burnham. This somehow stopped Voq from activating properly, and resulted in a completely unstable state. Why would any other Klingon, no matter how trained in subterfuge, be any better at handling being torn between being two individuals help that?
Voq's mission probably already failed when Tyler asked the Doctor for help. But if that didn't complete the failure, it was possibly when they ended up in the wrong universe for (effectively) 9 months. Sure, it didn't help the Federation either, but those 9 months were also 9 months for the Klingons without a united leadership under Kol or a Spore-Drive-Equipped L'rell and Voq.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The Federation in TOS is not a civilization that survived being almost annihilated by the Klingons.
How do you know that?
The Federation in TOS is far too optimistic for a civilization that nearly survived annihilation. If we had the Kirk from The Undiscovered Country for TOS, then it would be understandable since his son was killed by Klingons. All the interactions between Starfleet and the Klingons in TOS would be personal due to the Klingons almost destroying Earth. And yet we never see such hatred in TOS. The interactions between the Federation and the Klingons in TOS seems to be more like the USSR and the US. Skirmishes in various places, but have never gone to war.
I thought that was an alternative designation for ESD?
Memory Alpha already has an updated article on this, though... while there is no mention of ESD, it does note that while the episode places Starbase 1 on the far outskirts of Sol System, the CGI shot seems to show Lake Michigan and parts of Florida on the planet the starbase orbits...
Klingons can't attack Earth. That is definitely canon.
Alright, I'm checking out which trans-Neptunian objects might fit the bill (aphelion > 100 AU), and generating ephemerides. Here are what their distances from Earth will be in January 2257, rounded to the nearest AU:
Asteroid (2014 FE72) will be 213 AU
87269 (2000 OO67) will be 196 AU
Asteroid (2010 GB174) will be 195 AU
148209 (2000 CR105) will be 180 AU
Asteroid (2012 VP113) will be 162 AU
Asteroid (2013 SY99) will be 152 AU
Asteroid (2014 FL72) will be 148 AU
Asteroid (2015 RX245) will be 144 AU
Asteroid (2014 FJ72) will be 142 AU
Asteroid (2008 ST291) will be 139 AU
90377 Sedna (2003 VB12) will be 135 AU
505478 (2013 UT15) will be 133 AU
Asteroid (2014 SU349) will be 130 AU
15874 (1996 TL66) will be 121 AU
Asteroid (2013 FS28) will be 115 AU (!)
Asteroid (2015 RR245) will be 99 AU (!!!)
Asteroid (2014 FC69) will be 96 AU (!!)
Asteroid (2014 UZ224) will be 87 AU
Asteroid (2006 QH181) will be 82 AU
225088 (2007 OR10) will be 85 AU
136199 Eris (2003 UB313) will be at perihelion, only 38 AU away from Earth.
2015 RR245 is a trans-Neptunian object and possible dwarf planet form the Kuiper belt in the outermost regions of the Solar System. It stays in a rare 2:9 resonance with Neptune and measures approximately 700 kilometers in diameter, which likely makes it large enough to be round.
Round, in a resonance with Neptune. It might be our dude!
However, there is also a suggestion that the writers actually may have goofed up and did really mean Eris (a Dwarf planet larger than Pluto):
Given the look of the planetoid, I'm suspecting they were going for Eris. The on-screen world is really bright and white, which matches our research on Eris (which is one of the brightest large objects in the Solar System).
They possibly didn't consider that Eris would be far closer to Earth than Pluto currently is, and just went with its farthest distance (which is roughly 97.5 AU). Interestingly enough, the Wikipedia page of Eris actually states that the planetoid will be at its closest point to the sun between 2256 and 2258 - which is exactly the time Discovery takes place. Could it be that someone mixed up perihelion and aphelion?
We know now that even Pluto, despite its small size and long distance from the sun, has something like clouds and stuff. So it isn't impossible that Eris or other dwarf planets might have the same. Eris particularly is known to be relatively bright, which would fit what we see in DIS.
ALLHAILTHEGODOFEDITs
Post edited by mustrumridcully0 on
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The Klingons should be very afraid, Terran methods have proved effective with Lorca and now Mirror Georgiou is in the seat. God help the Klingon Empire because their homeworld is right in the Discovery's crosshairs.
I could see the war ending with a crushing Klingon defeat and surrender
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
They go on the Klingon Home world and find Rigless Klingon who are outcast and either start a revolution or use a bio weapon to take away the remaining Klingon foreheads because Captain Emperor is most likely gonna want to wipe them out so Discovery crew feel taking away EVERYTHING from the Klingons will end the war, rather then genocide
They go on the Klingon Home world and find Rigless Klingon who are outcast and either start a revolution or use a bio weapon to take away the remaining Klingon foreheads because Captain Emperor is most likely gonna want to wipe them out so Discovery crew feel taking away EVERYTHING from the Klingons will end the war, rather then genocide
I thought the ridgeless Klingons were the result of the Klingon Augment virus from Enterprise that was somehow cured between TOS and TNG. If they are a bunch of outcasts, then they wouldn't be on the Klingon Homeword. It never made sense to me how we got the Discovery Klingons when they were humanized in Enterprise and the original Enterprise Klingons looked nothing like Discovery Klingons.
Only thing I could think of is that groups of Houses originally controlled certain planets which results in Klingon Houses having different environmental pressures on their evolution. So the Houses showed in Discovery evolved on the same planet which results in them looking different from other Houses that evolved on different Houses.
Still, I think this aspect of the season is VERY under-developed, and that development could have gone a long way to forgive my issues with reconciling with canon.
Several sub-plots were underdeveloped.
Lack of editorial oversight is fairly obvious this season. Everyone wanted to get their ideas out there and no one was really steering the story and trimming ideas. Good thing Alex Kurtzman spent all that time directing and writing that amazing Mummy movie during the writing process for Star Trek: Discovery. That choice seems to have worked out for everyone involved.
Still, I think this aspect of the season is VERY under-developed, and that development could have gone a long way to forgive my issues with reconciling with canon.
Several sub-plots were underdeveloped.
Lack of editorial oversight is fairly obvious this season. Everyone wanted to get their ideas out there and no one was really steering the story and trimming ideas. Good thing Alex Kurtzman spent all that time directing and writing that amazing Mummy movie during the writing process for Star Trek: Discovery. That choice seems to have worked out for everyone involved.
That's certainly possible, but I think the answer is a little simpler. Bryan Fuller wanted to do ten episodes, while CBS wanted 13 (and later, 15). Bryan Fuller left, so the rest of the PTBs retrofitted the Klingon War story into this season. I mean, we have:
Michael Burnham, her relationship to Sarek, and her fall from/return to grace
T'Kuvma, Kol, and the Klingon War
Voq, L'Rell, and the abuse of Ash Tyler
The spore drive, the Tardigrade, and Stamets' genetic manipulation
Gabriel Lorca, the Mirror Universe, and Empress Georgiou
That is, without even including minor storylines like Saru or Harry Mudd, at least two seasons worth of storylines. It's too much.
That's certainly possible, but I think the answer is a little simpler. Bryan Fuller wanted to do ten episodes, while CBS wanted 13 (and later, 15). Bryan Fuller left, so the rest of the PTBs retrofitted the Klingon War story into this season. I mean, we have:
Michael Burnham, her relationship to Sarek, and her fall from/return to grace
T'Kuvma, Kol, and the Klingon War
Voq, L'Rell, and the abuse of Ash Tyler
The spore drive, the Tardigrade, and Stamets' genetic manipulation
Gabriel Lorca, the Mirror Universe, and Empress Georgiou
That is, without even including minor storylines like Saru or Harry Mudd, at least two seasons worth of storylines. It's too much.
That's what I mean.
Everyone on the writing team had creative input. No one was there to say "we can't fit this into our over-arching story right now. We'll save this for season two." Everything went into the pot. The lead writer was WRITING AND DIRECTING A FILM during the writing process. The writing team clearly had no leadership or your stories would have been less bloated and tighter in scope.
The story presentation is fairly terrible as well (which you can blame on Fuller's absence). A heavier focus on "mystery reveals" then the actual crew of the ship. The ship itself (and most major characters) did not even appear until episode 3. It's the worst aspects of Lost, only "in space". Star Trek: Discovery has the worst pilot episode of any Trek series simply because it does nothing to introduce you to the major elements of the series (again, worst aspects of Lost).
That's certainly possible, but I think the answer is a little simpler. Bryan Fuller wanted to do ten episodes, while CBS wanted 13 (and later, 15). Bryan Fuller left, so the rest of the PTBs retrofitted the Klingon War story into this season. I mean, we have:
Michael Burnham, her relationship to Sarek, and her fall from/return to grace
T'Kuvma, Kol, and the Klingon War
Voq, L'Rell, and the abuse of Ash Tyler
The spore drive, the Tardigrade, and Stamets' genetic manipulation
Gabriel Lorca, the Mirror Universe, and Empress Georgiou
That is, without even including minor storylines like Saru or Harry Mudd, at least two seasons worth of storylines. It's too much.
That's what I mean.
Everyone on the writing team had creative input. No one was there to say "we can't fit this into our over-arching story right now. We'll save this for season two." Everything went into the pot. The lead writer was WRITING AND DIRECTING A FILM during the writing process. The writing team clearly had no leadership or your stories would have been less bloated and tighter in scope.
The story presentation is fairly terrible as well (which you can blame on Fuller's absence). A heavier focus on "mystery reveals" then the actual crew of the ship. The ship itself (and most major characters) did not even appear until episode 3. It's the worst aspects of Lost, only "in space". Star Trek: Discovery has the worst pilot episode of any Trek series simply because it does nothing to introduce you to the major elements of the series (again, worst aspects of Lost).
Yeah, I think I get what you're saying...
But, I must warn you... I am a HUGE fan of Lost, LOL. So much so, in fact, that I have re-watched the series 3 or 4 times since it ended. Lost did a FANTASTIC job developing its characters, and only drags in the middle of the series with that as it tries to hold back from revealing the secrets of the Island. Now, I assume you're referring to the lackluster revelations Lost made in the end about those secrets... which I suppose is valid, but you'd be surprised how internally consistent the show is with its mythology. I also think it wasn't the point of the series, as it focuses on paying off the characters FIRST.
And, no, they all didn't die in the plane crash.
If Discovery matched Lost's pace in the first season? Holy s**t, it would be my favorite Trek series. Take an entire season to develop every major character, while letting the mystery brew in the background (replace Lost's hatch with Discovery's spore drive)?
TrekMovie has a decent prediction about the finale:
Michael Burnham will once again be compelled to mutiny, but this time, her actions will result in ending the war. Thus, it will form "bookends" with the first two episodes.
TrekMovie has a decent prediction about the finale:
Michael Burnham will once again be compelled to mutiny, but this time, her actions will result in ending the war. Thus, it will form "bookends" with the first two episodes.
I can totally see this happening.
How about Tyler and Burnham become Klingon Emperor and Klingon Empress?
It turns out Burnham was Kahless all along and forms the Fed-Klingon union. Because at Discovery, it was a challenge to write within the strict confinement of canon, but the staff were huge (yuuuuuch) fans and found a way.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It turns out Burnham was Kahless all along and forms the Fed-Klingon union. Because at Discovery, it was a challenge to write within the strict confinement of canon, but the staff were huge (yuuuuuch) fans and found a way.
Good enough reason as any when it comes to Discovery. Although if they used that, then they would be ripping off the end of the Minbari War in Babylon 5. Certainly is close to it right now with an unstoppable fleet getting ready to attack Earth.
It would take real balls if Discovery decides to wipe out Earth and they don't use a temporal reset button. It would certainly resolve the whole "Is Discovery set in the Prime Universe" issue. TOS canon would be meaningless to Discovery if they decide to pull that off. Would Discovery decide to jump to a parallel universe, rescue as many Federation civilians as they can and jump to a parallel universe, or stay and fight?
But, I must warn you... I am a HUGE fan of Lost, LOL.
I just want to stress the "worst aspects of Lost". The failure in the story direction and the "are you kidding me?" moments outside of that. For instance, far more thought was put into the "Voq reveal" than the set-up. What was the plan there? Were they going to "wake up" Voq and have him do... what? Sabotage the Discovery? Steal information? Like the "black badges", the set-up feels dropped; story elements abandoned because they are in a hurry to move on to new ideas.
If Star Trek: Discovery spent more time on it's characters (and developed them in a rational way) then we could forgive some of the lack-luster stories... because that is what we do with all Trek. Having Harry Mudd lampshade the issue ("Nameless crewman on comms") is not satisfying in the least and just serves to draw attention to this fact.
But, I must warn you... I am a HUGE fan of Lost, LOL.
I just want to stress the "worst aspects of Lost". The failure in the story direction and the "are you kidding me?" moments outside of that. For instance, far more thought was put into the "Voq reveal" than the set-up. What was the plan there? Were they going to "wake up" Voq and have him do... what? Sabotage the Discovery? Steal information? Like the "black badges", the set-up feels dropped; story elements abandoned because they are in a hurry to move on to new ideas.
If Star Trek: Discovery spent more time on it's characters (and developed them in a rational way) then we could forgive some of the lack-luster stories... because that is what we do with all Trek. Having Harry Mudd lampshade the issue ("Nameless crewman on comms") is not satisfying in the least and just serves to draw attention to this fact.
Right, I gotcha now.
It's funny... I'm hearing a lot of pivoting happening, and like you said, I think a lot of people would be willing to forgive apparent flaws in stuff like canon details, if the characters were better developed. That's really not happening. There are good characters, but people seem to be getting frustrated that we're not getting enough time with them.
So, now, people are turning back to bashing the show for not "lining up with canon." Some of this stuff (like the Klingon cloak) still don't bother me... but I honestly feel like if they got one of these right, fans would forgive the other. But they're getting NEITHER quite right, so very few are happy.
But, I must warn you... I am a HUGE fan of Lost, LOL.
I just want to stress the "worst aspects of Lost". The failure in the story direction and the "are you kidding me?" moments outside of that. For instance, far more thought was put into the "Voq reveal" than the set-up. What was the plan there? Were they going to "wake up" Voq and have him do... what? Sabotage the Discovery? Steal information? Like the "black badges", the set-up feels dropped; story elements abandoned because they are in a hurry to move on to new ideas.
If Star Trek: Discovery spent more time on it's characters (and developed them in a rational way) then we could forgive some of the lack-luster stories... because that is what we do with all Trek. Having Harry Mudd lampshade the issue ("Nameless crewman on comms") is not satisfying in the least and just serves to draw attention to this fact.
Right, I gotcha now.
It's funny... I'm hearing a lot of pivoting happening, and like you said, I think a lot of people would be willing to forgive apparent flaws in stuff like canon details, if the characters were better developed. That's really not happening. There are good characters, but people seem to be getting frustrated that we're not getting enough time with them.
So, now, people are turning back to bashing the show for not "lining up with canon." Some of this stuff (like the Klingon cloak) still don't bother me... but I honestly feel like if they got one of these right, fans would forgive the other. But they're getting NEITHER quite right, so very few are happy.
Easy enough to solve the whole "lining up with canon" issue by saying that Discovery is set in a parallel universe. Discovery would have the freedom to do what they want like blow up Vulcan without having to worry about canon. Of course, it would cause some fans to be mad that this was supposed to be a TOS prequel. So what if the Klingons don't match what we saw on Enterprise and other Star Trek shows. So what if Discovery has more advanced technology that wasn't available in TOS.
I really don't see why people think the characters aren't well developed. Since people love comparing it to TOs... how much character development was there for the main cast?
Comments
I believe the exact line was, at the very beginning of the episode: "And there it is... war. Nobody wanted it, but we got it anyway."
It just always felt like Trek's Cuban Missile Crisis to me, only it was averted thanks to the intervention of the Organians. They never reached that point before, and they never would. This is also why I don't think adopting the Axanar/Four-Years War idea as canon is a good idea, if you make the enemy the Klingons.
And, to be clear, I do think Discovery has a significant patch of canon to play within, given these perceived limitations established in "Errand of Mercy." Skirmishes and smaller conflicts are fine, IMO. I really like the notion of the Klingons falling off the galactic map for 100 years. All of that builds nicely into TOS, and specially, "Errand of Mercy."
I think Discovery's big mistake is that they decided to go to the ALL-OUT-WAR-CAPS-LOCK extreme. Thanks to last night's episode, I think they went WAY beyond the limitations the Organians established as reasons for stopping the conflict in the first place. The Organians didn't want the Federation fighting the Klingons BECAUSE the galaxy would be the steaming mess we saw in last night's episode.
More importantly. not only does it not mesh well with established canon, I just don't think they're doing the idea justice. (I mean, their MU storyline completely derailed the Klingon War story for four critical episodes!) We haven't seen the war in great detail at all (unlike the Dominion War, IMO), and we're now on the brink of TOTAL ANNIHILATION... yet, we know THAT won't happen, and the producers have explicitly said the Klingon War story ends in Season One.
We have one episode left. One. I don't see how they reconcile these two aspects, and do them (and the story) justice.
Perhaps. And I’d even be willing to grant them that. I also want to see how they decide to end this, and I’m willing to hold final judgement on the season until it is actually over
Still, I think this aspect of the season is VERY under-developed, and that development could have gone a long way to forgive my issues with reconciling with canon.
The problem wasn't using Voq. The problem was using Ash Tyler as cover.
Their whole mental trickery didn't work because of Tyler developing a relationship with Burnham. This somehow stopped Voq from activating properly, and resulted in a completely unstable state. Why would any other Klingon, no matter how trained in subterfuge, be any better at handling being torn between being two individuals help that?
Voq's mission probably already failed when Tyler asked the Doctor for help. But if that didn't complete the failure, it was possibly when they ended up in the wrong universe for (effectively) 9 months. Sure, it didn't help the Federation either, but those 9 months were also 9 months for the Klingons without a united leadership under Kol or a Spore-Drive-Equipped L'rell and Voq.
The Federation in TOS is far too optimistic for a civilization that nearly survived annihilation. If we had the Kirk from The Undiscovered Country for TOS, then it would be understandable since his son was killed by Klingons. All the interactions between Starfleet and the Klingons in TOS would be personal due to the Klingons almost destroying Earth. And yet we never see such hatred in TOS. The interactions between the Federation and the Klingons in TOS seems to be more like the USSR and the US. Skirmishes in various places, but have never gone to war.
I thought that was an alternative designation for ESD?
Memory Alpha already has an updated article on this, though... while there is no mention of ESD, it does note that while the episode places Starbase 1 on the far outskirts of Sol System, the CGI shot seems to show Lake Michigan and parts of Florida on the planet the starbase orbits...
Klingons can't attack Earth. That is definitely canon.
Someone on reddit apparently did some research:
However, there is also a suggestion that the writers actually may have goofed up and did really mean Eris (a Dwarf planet larger than Pluto):
We know now that even Pluto, despite its small size and long distance from the sun, has something like clouds and stuff. So it isn't impossible that Eris or other dwarf planets might have the same. Eris particularly is known to be relatively bright, which would fit what we see in DIS.
ALLHAILTHEGODOFEDITs
I could see the war ending with a crushing Klingon defeat and surrender
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I thought the ridgeless Klingons were the result of the Klingon Augment virus from Enterprise that was somehow cured between TOS and TNG. If they are a bunch of outcasts, then they wouldn't be on the Klingon Homeword. It never made sense to me how we got the Discovery Klingons when they were humanized in Enterprise and the original Enterprise Klingons looked nothing like Discovery Klingons.
Only thing I could think of is that groups of Houses originally controlled certain planets which results in Klingon Houses having different environmental pressures on their evolution. So the Houses showed in Discovery evolved on the same planet which results in them looking different from other Houses that evolved on different Houses.
Lack of editorial oversight is fairly obvious this season. Everyone wanted to get their ideas out there and no one was really steering the story and trimming ideas. Good thing Alex Kurtzman spent all that time directing and writing that amazing Mummy movie during the writing process for Star Trek: Discovery. That choice seems to have worked out for everyone involved.
That's certainly possible, but I think the answer is a little simpler. Bryan Fuller wanted to do ten episodes, while CBS wanted 13 (and later, 15). Bryan Fuller left, so the rest of the PTBs retrofitted the Klingon War story into this season. I mean, we have:
That is, without even including minor storylines like Saru or Harry Mudd, at least two seasons worth of storylines. It's too much.
Everyone on the writing team had creative input. No one was there to say "we can't fit this into our over-arching story right now. We'll save this for season two." Everything went into the pot. The lead writer was WRITING AND DIRECTING A FILM during the writing process. The writing team clearly had no leadership or your stories would have been less bloated and tighter in scope.
The story presentation is fairly terrible as well (which you can blame on Fuller's absence). A heavier focus on "mystery reveals" then the actual crew of the ship. The ship itself (and most major characters) did not even appear until episode 3. It's the worst aspects of Lost, only "in space". Star Trek: Discovery has the worst pilot episode of any Trek series simply because it does nothing to introduce you to the major elements of the series (again, worst aspects of Lost).
Yeah, I think I get what you're saying...
But, I must warn you... I am a HUGE fan of Lost, LOL. So much so, in fact, that I have re-watched the series 3 or 4 times since it ended. Lost did a FANTASTIC job developing its characters, and only drags in the middle of the series with that as it tries to hold back from revealing the secrets of the Island. Now, I assume you're referring to the lackluster revelations Lost made in the end about those secrets... which I suppose is valid, but you'd be surprised how internally consistent the show is with its mythology. I also think it wasn't the point of the series, as it focuses on paying off the characters FIRST.
And, no, they all didn't die in the plane crash.
If Discovery matched Lost's pace in the first season? Holy s**t, it would be my favorite Trek series. Take an entire season to develop every major character, while letting the mystery brew in the background (replace Lost's hatch with Discovery's spore drive)?
Oh, what might've been...
Michael Burnham will once again be compelled to mutiny, but this time, her actions will result in ending the war. Thus, it will form "bookends" with the first two episodes.
I can totally see this happening.
How about Tyler and Burnham become Klingon Emperor and Klingon Empress?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Good enough reason as any when it comes to Discovery. Although if they used that, then they would be ripping off the end of the Minbari War in Babylon 5. Certainly is close to it right now with an unstoppable fleet getting ready to attack Earth.
It would take real balls if Discovery decides to wipe out Earth and they don't use a temporal reset button. It would certainly resolve the whole "Is Discovery set in the Prime Universe" issue. TOS canon would be meaningless to Discovery if they decide to pull that off. Would Discovery decide to jump to a parallel universe, rescue as many Federation civilians as they can and jump to a parallel universe, or stay and fight?
If Star Trek: Discovery spent more time on it's characters (and developed them in a rational way) then we could forgive some of the lack-luster stories... because that is what we do with all Trek. Having Harry Mudd lampshade the issue ("Nameless crewman on comms") is not satisfying in the least and just serves to draw attention to this fact.
My character Tsin'xing
Right, I gotcha now.
It's funny... I'm hearing a lot of pivoting happening, and like you said, I think a lot of people would be willing to forgive apparent flaws in stuff like canon details, if the characters were better developed. That's really not happening. There are good characters, but people seem to be getting frustrated that we're not getting enough time with them.
So, now, people are turning back to bashing the show for not "lining up with canon." Some of this stuff (like the Klingon cloak) still don't bother me... but I honestly feel like if they got one of these right, fans would forgive the other. But they're getting NEITHER quite right, so very few are happy.
Easy enough to solve the whole "lining up with canon" issue by saying that Discovery is set in a parallel universe. Discovery would have the freedom to do what they want like blow up Vulcan without having to worry about canon. Of course, it would cause some fans to be mad that this was supposed to be a TOS prequel. So what if the Klingons don't match what we saw on Enterprise and other Star Trek shows. So what if Discovery has more advanced technology that wasn't available in TOS.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing