One thing that might make the Exchange prices less excessive would be that anything bought from it becomes BoA. That would stop the re-posters from jacking up prices they think are 'too low'. While this would, I'm sure, have horrible side effects, it would stop people from 'playing the market' all day every day. Only people who truly want to use an item would be buying.
It all depends upon whether or not you win if it is worth it of course. I think the loot boxes are gambling, yes yes others like to state it isn't gambling because you are guaranteed a prize. I'm also guaranteed a piece of paper as a prize if I buy a Powerball ticket & lose too. I think it is only a matter of time till the gaming companies have to publish the statistical odds officially, because till those official odds are published it is gambling since the odds are unknown. Regardless of the nice efforts of some players attempting to calculate the odds on Tribble.
For 1) who is to say the odds are the same between Tribble & Holodeck? if my job was strictly marketing & didn't have to worry about ethics it would be simple to jack-up the winning percentage on Tribble to entice players to spend money on Holodeck. 2) the whole randomness "RNG" isn't really random. It's the same type of programming algorithm as casinos or similar & if you were to open-up the code you would see it isn't truly random & it is predictable. We simply don't have the know-how yet for true random. 3) the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) doesn't have any legal authority so the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) would need to investigate whether or not everything is operating legitimately. 4) I'm only stating this example because I saw in chat a couple days ago & it peaked my interest so I looked it up, but a player was complaining about losing at an Infinity Box only giving lobi & a Salvaged Technology which is a R&D item worth about 130-200 thousand ECs on the Exchange. The complaint was that the item isn't even listed as a possible prize at all. I looked it up on the Infinity Box's More Details description & true enough it is no where stated as a possible prize. That could be interpreted as a bait & switch tactic imo. 5) If Cryptic wants to, & who knows if they have &/or are currently doing, they are simply a keystroke or mouse-click from allowing so & so player to win & so & so player to lose. It can be done because that is the nature of programming. It is the same principle Cryptic reasons with to decide who gets something free in-game when others don't. 6) However, even though this game, imo, has been continually degrading it's self over the last year or so with the gambling/gimmick focus over content STO would've probably been shut-down already without that gambling financial injection, & that would be sad & bad for all of us.
There's definitely economics & psychology involved in all of this. The official odds should be published along with all the possible prizes otherwise it is gambling because of the unknown factor. That's not even trusting the issue that there's no trickery/favoritism behind the scenes. Then again I stopped tossing $ at STO once Cryptic/Arc broke my account back in late July where less than half of my characters are receiving the correct subscriber experience boost bonus. Sometimes we are all dotards just playing STO.
well as for "they are gambling" well the cliches for that are "the house always wins" and "las vegas wasn't built by winners" i mostly open them for the lobi which can be used to buy other things
As stated by eurogamer.net, the Dutch Gambling Authority has now launched an investigation into whether games with loot boxes are games of chance.
The controversy reached boiling point as main publishers like EA and Blizzard designed their online games SW:Battlefront II and Overwatch around micro transaction and purchasable "chance boxes".
The result will also affect Star Trek Online with its lock box system. I imagine, once classified as gambling game, the age rating will change, for minors shouldn't be exposed to gambling. Taxes change and perhaps even fines.
There’s also a petition for this to be discussed in the UK parliament but I doubt if anything will come of it.
You’ve got to remember that gambling regulators may still be interested even if there’s a guaranteed prize, particularly in the context of problem gamblers.
I suspect that we will eventually see the drop rates made public with a few links to Gamble Aware dotted around, but not much else.
I'm curious to see how this will play out and snowball. I'm kind of hoping it starts something against the whole lock box setup. A game should be a game, not a casino for RNG boxes. If that meant that PWE games had to change/shut down i wouldn't lose sleep over it. Seems like they're more about the lock boxes then the actual games they put out these days anyway.
Were this to succeed, the EU would share something in common with the US - Kinder Eggs would be outlawed. Here, it's because there's a very broad law about putting toys inside food, in case some child is stupid enough to eat the whole thing and choke on the toy. (Personally, I'd invoke Darwin on such an event, but there you go.) In the EU, it would be because the reward from opening a Kinder Egg is random, and may not have value for an individual, just like a lockbox.
Never forget the second- and third-order results of a decision tree.
Yeah STO’s lockboxes may be a money spinner for them but they do behave in a very “fair” way compared to a lot of games.
First you never have to pay a penny for them as you can grind the dil to convert to zen to buy them. Admittedly though that zen was paid for by someone but that’s not really the same as you paying direct for a key.
Secondly there is always lobi in any box so you are getting something of value even if it is a tiny amount. So you don’t loose with a lockbox. You might get a bigger prize like a ship but you’ll always get the lobi currency and after a while you’ll have enough to buy the prize you were gambling for initially anyway.
Thirdly there is a wealth of other stuff in the box, all of which can be sold for currency or used to mine more currency/resources. So again you don’t loose, just the value of the prize might be big or small.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,743Community Moderator
STO's got a bit of an edge honestly as not everyone is required to buy a key. People generally buy keys to either sell them outright on the Exchange or to open boxes and sell the contents on the Exchange. MMOs with an Auction House system may not get hit as hard.
Now... Team Fortress 2, Battlefront 2, and Overwatch might have a bit of a problem as there is no Exchange. So unless you trade items in game, you kinda have to buy a key to get anything from a box.
Ok TF2 has a bit of an edge over the others as there is the Steam Marketplace and a chance at being able to either pick up some items as loot drops or crafting them. Except for things like Strange weapons that track actions and some other cosmetic stuff. No actual performance improvement whatsoever. So you got new Minigun for the Heavy out of a crate. Doesn't mean its P2W as I've seen some people kick butt with the stock minigun.
The counterargument may be that even though yes it does rely on chance (in this case RNGesus) you are guaranteed something each time. Weither its useful to YOU or not... that's up to the consumer.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I'm curious to see how this will play out and snowball. I'm kind of hoping it starts something against the whole lock box setup. A game should be a game, not a casino for RNG boxes. If that meant that PWE games had to change/shut down i wouldn't lose sleep over it. Seems like they're more about the lock boxes then the actual games they put out these days anyway.
While I have my doubts, I do hope something happens, I'm getting sick of every new game having a lock box system. When it was just a handful of F2P MMOs it was alright, but nowadays even Call of Duty has them.
Thanks for the comments, insights and additional information.
Loot boxes evolved into a widespread revenue scheme. Nonetheless it's fishing the gray juridical border waters of gambling.
We all knew, sooner or later a line has to be drawn somewhere.
The critical point is:
While EA/ Blizzard are just optimizing their profits, it's a more of an existential matter for STO.
So the path of least resistance(cheapest solution) for Perfect World would be to simply stop doing business in countries where laws prevent the use of loot boxes. How come no one ever sees this coming?
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
I think you left out a rather important piece of the article you posted....
"A player's ability to succeed in the game is not dependent on purchasing crates.Players can also earn crates through playing the game and not spending any money at all.Once obtained, players are always guaranteed to receive content that can be used in game."
If you were to get absolutely nothing of value when you open a lockbox, I would agree it is gambling. As they are now, you get something of value when you open one 100% of the time. Those item(s) may not be what you wanted, but they still have value. Also, as the response from EA spells out, boxes and content can be purchased without real money - same as they can be here.
Define what "something of value" is? if all you get from the box is four to ten lobi and a green quality research booster and a temporary booster crate, then what value you get is virtually nothing. Lobi is a virtual currency and it is stated in the terms of service by Cryptic that it is worth nothing in value as a virtual currency and the other items being virtual and with everything owned by Cryptic, means nothing in the game is yours since they own all that anyway.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
So the path of least resistance(cheapest solution) for Perfect World would be to simply stop doing business in countries where laws prevent the use of loot boxes. How come no one ever sees this coming?
Well...considering that the dutch law can spread to the rest of the EU...that may not be the best solution at hand. If I remember correctly, the german players are a big part of this game's community. But seriously, this is happening because EA got WAY to greedy. The system they have for BF2 hopnestly is why all this is happening. They wanted to see how far they can push these lootboxes...well I think EA just found the limits. If not...than humanity is more foolish than I ever imagined.
With this getting so much attention right now, there's also the possibility of the US and various countries of the EU simply passing new laws and regulations regarding loot / lock boxes. While they may not fit the current legal definition of gambling (I'm no legal expert so I can't say with certainty), there's no denying that the effect on the brain is identical to gambling.
So the path of least resistance(cheapest solution) for Perfect World would be to simply stop doing business in countries where laws prevent the use of loot boxes. How come no one ever sees this coming?
Well...considering that the dutch law can spread to the rest of the EU...that may not be the best solution at hand. If I remember correctly, the german players are a big part of this game's community. But seriously, this is happening because EA got WAY to greedy. The system they have for BF2 hopnestly is why all this is happening. They wanted to see how far they can push these lootboxes...well I think EA just found the limits. If not...than humanity is more foolish than I ever imagined.
With this getting so much attention right now, there's also the possibility of the US and various countries of the EU simply passing new laws and regulations regarding loot / lock boxes. While they may not fit the current legal definition of gambling (I'm no legal expert so I can't say with certainty), there's no denying that the effect on the brain is identical to gambling.
The attention doesn't really effect Cryptic, even if the UK and the Dutch authorities passed laws about these gambling devices to outlaw them, it won't have any effect on Cryptic since they are based in the USA. So long as the US Senate don't pass any such laws it will continue to remain unaffected.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
So the path of least resistance(cheapest solution) for Perfect World would be to simply stop doing business in countries where laws prevent the use of loot boxes. How come no one ever sees this coming?
Well...considering that the dutch law can spread to the rest of the EU...that may not be the best solution at hand. If I remember correctly, the german players are a big part of this game's community. But seriously, this is happening because EA got WAY to greedy. The system they have for BF2 hopnestly is why all this is happening. They wanted to see how far they can push these lootboxes...well I think EA just found the limits. If not...than humanity is more foolish than I ever imagined.
With this getting so much attention right now, there's also the possibility of the US and various countries of the EU simply passing new laws and regulations regarding loot / lock boxes. While they may not fit the current legal definition of gambling (I'm no legal expert so I can't say with certainty), there's no denying that the effect on the brain is identical to gambling.
The attention doesn't really effect Cryptic, even if the UK and the Dutch authorities passed laws about these gambling devices to outlaw them, it won't have any effect on Cryptic since they are based in the USA. So long as the US Senate don't pass any such laws it will continue to remain unaffected.
It would actually be up to the individual states since gambling is legal in some and not others.
So the path of least resistance(cheapest solution) for Perfect World would be to simply stop doing business in countries where laws prevent the use of loot boxes. How come no one ever sees this coming?
Well...considering that the dutch law can spread to the rest of the EU...that may not be the best solution at hand. If I remember correctly, the german players are a big part of this game's community. But seriously, this is happening because EA got WAY to greedy. The system they have for BF2 hopnestly is why all this is happening. They wanted to see how far they can push these lootboxes...well I think EA just found the limits. If not...than humanity is more foolish than I ever imagined.
With this getting so much attention right now, there's also the possibility of the US and various countries of the EU simply passing new laws and regulations regarding loot / lock boxes. While they may not fit the current legal definition of gambling (I'm no legal expert so I can't say with certainty), there's no denying that the effect on the brain is identical to gambling.
The attention doesn't really effect Cryptic, even if the UK and the Dutch authorities passed laws about these gambling devices to outlaw them, it won't have any effect on Cryptic since they are based in the USA. So long as the US Senate don't pass any such laws it will continue to remain unaffected.
It would actually be up to the individual states since gambling is legal in some and not others.
I had thought gambling age was a federal law, but after checking Google even that varies by state which I had no idea.
Seeing as STO is already blocked in places like China for just this reason then it would be bad news were a similar thing to happen elsewhere because the developer was too stubborn to adapt their model.
This subject is getting a lot of attention right now but i think that is a good thing. Gaming in general has been let off the hook in terms of a lot of its financial practices with things like loot crates, so I think the attention is needed. EA just pushed too hard and got slapped by a pissed off playerbase.
So the path of least resistance(cheapest solution) for Perfect World would be to simply stop doing business in countries where laws prevent the use of loot boxes. How come no one ever sees this coming?
Well...considering that the dutch law can spread to the rest of the EU...that may not be the best solution at hand. If I remember correctly, the german players are a big part of this game's community. But seriously, this is happening because EA got WAY to greedy. The system they have for BF2 hopnestly is why all this is happening. They wanted to see how far they can push these lootboxes...well I think EA just found the limits. If not...than humanity is more foolish than I ever imagined.
With this getting so much attention right now, there's also the possibility of the US and various countries of the EU simply passing new laws and regulations regarding loot / lock boxes. While they may not fit the current legal definition of gambling (I'm no legal expert so I can't say with certainty), there's no denying that the effect on the brain is identical to gambling.
The attention doesn't really effect Cryptic, even if the UK and the Dutch authorities passed laws about these gambling devices to outlaw them, it won't have any effect on Cryptic since they are based in the USA. So long as the US Senate don't pass any such laws it will continue to remain unaffected.
Yes it does...unless cryptic/PWE does not want to do buisness with those nations. The laws that governs if a product can be sold in a country is not based on the country the product is made in...it's based on where you are SELLING it in.
They may have little choice but to pull out of Holland and the UK if such laws were passed, but still it wouldn't affect Cryptic, just the people in those countries who play this game. As long as Cryptic's profit sheets are in the green after losing a few thousand players (Speculatively) in those countries, then no it wouldn't.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
As much as we don’t have any figures for player numbers I’d say having to pull out of EU countries would be bad news, that’s gotta be several thousand players at the very least. I’d frankly be shocked if a developer or publisher was so utterly stubborn they’d rather loose half their players than move to alternate revenue streams, for a game like STO it could be a suicide move.
But I don’t think STO is in that boat yet, Overwatch, TF; now those guys should be more worried.
Comments
For 1) who is to say the odds are the same between Tribble & Holodeck? if my job was strictly marketing & didn't have to worry about ethics it would be simple to jack-up the winning percentage on Tribble to entice players to spend money on Holodeck. 2) the whole randomness "RNG" isn't really random. It's the same type of programming algorithm as casinos or similar & if you were to open-up the code you would see it isn't truly random & it is predictable. We simply don't have the know-how yet for true random. 3) the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) doesn't have any legal authority so the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) would need to investigate whether or not everything is operating legitimately. 4) I'm only stating this example because I saw in chat a couple days ago & it peaked my interest so I looked it up, but a player was complaining about losing at an Infinity Box only giving lobi & a Salvaged Technology which is a R&D item worth about 130-200 thousand ECs on the Exchange. The complaint was that the item isn't even listed as a possible prize at all. I looked it up on the Infinity Box's More Details description & true enough it is no where stated as a possible prize. That could be interpreted as a bait & switch tactic imo. 5) If Cryptic wants to, & who knows if they have &/or are currently doing, they are simply a keystroke or mouse-click from allowing so & so player to win & so & so player to lose. It can be done because that is the nature of programming. It is the same principle Cryptic reasons with to decide who gets something free in-game when others don't. 6) However, even though this game, imo, has been continually degrading it's self over the last year or so with the gambling/gimmick focus over content STO would've probably been shut-down already without that gambling financial injection, & that would be sad & bad for all of us.
There's definitely economics & psychology involved in all of this. The official odds should be published along with all the possible prizes otherwise it is gambling because of the unknown factor. That's not even trusting the issue that there's no trickery/favoritism behind the scenes. Then again I stopped tossing $ at STO once Cryptic/Arc broke my account back in late July where less than half of my characters are receiving the correct subscriber experience boost bonus. Sometimes we are all dotards just playing STO.
The controversy reached boiling point as main publishers like EA and Blizzard designed their online games SW:Battlefront II and Overwatch around micro transaction and purchasable "chance boxes".
The result will also affect Star Trek Online with its lock box system. I imagine, once classified as gambling game, the age rating will change, for minors shouldn't be exposed to gambling. Taxes change and perhaps even fines.
Holy Grail of Gamification is Addiction | 5 Ways to Accomplisch | and the Psychology of Freemium
You’ve got to remember that gambling regulators may still be interested even if there’s a guaranteed prize, particularly in the context of problem gamblers.
I suspect that we will eventually see the drop rates made public with a few links to Gamble Aware dotted around, but not much else.
Never forget the second- and third-order results of a decision tree.
First you never have to pay a penny for them as you can grind the dil to convert to zen to buy them. Admittedly though that zen was paid for by someone but that’s not really the same as you paying direct for a key.
Secondly there is always lobi in any box so you are getting something of value even if it is a tiny amount. So you don’t loose with a lockbox. You might get a bigger prize like a ship but you’ll always get the lobi currency and after a while you’ll have enough to buy the prize you were gambling for initially anyway.
Thirdly there is a wealth of other stuff in the box, all of which can be sold for currency or used to mine more currency/resources. So again you don’t loose, just the value of the prize might be big or small.
Now... Team Fortress 2, Battlefront 2, and Overwatch might have a bit of a problem as there is no Exchange. So unless you trade items in game, you kinda have to buy a key to get anything from a box.
Ok TF2 has a bit of an edge over the others as there is the Steam Marketplace and a chance at being able to either pick up some items as loot drops or crafting them. Except for things like Strange weapons that track actions and some other cosmetic stuff. No actual performance improvement whatsoever. So you got new Minigun for the Heavy out of a crate. Doesn't mean its P2W as I've seen some people kick butt with the stock minigun.
The counterargument may be that even though yes it does rely on chance (in this case RNGesus) you are guaranteed something each time. Weither its useful to YOU or not... that's up to the consumer.
All we can do is just wait and see what happens.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
While I have my doubts, I do hope something happens, I'm getting sick of every new game having a lock box system. When it was just a handful of F2P MMOs it was alright, but nowadays even Call of Duty has them.
Loot boxes evolved into a widespread revenue scheme. Nonetheless it's fishing the gray juridical border waters of gambling.
We all knew, sooner or later a line has to be drawn somewhere.
The critical point is:
While EA/ Blizzard are just optimizing their profits, it's a more of an existential matter for STO.
Holy Grail of Gamification is Addiction | 5 Ways to Accomplisch | and the Psychology of Freemium
Define what "something of value" is? if all you get from the box is four to ten lobi and a green quality research booster and a temporary booster crate, then what value you get is virtually nothing. Lobi is a virtual currency and it is stated in the terms of service by Cryptic that it is worth nothing in value as a virtual currency and the other items being virtual and with everything owned by Cryptic, means nothing in the game is yours since they own all that anyway.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
With this getting so much attention right now, there's also the possibility of the US and various countries of the EU simply passing new laws and regulations regarding loot / lock boxes. While they may not fit the current legal definition of gambling (I'm no legal expert so I can't say with certainty), there's no denying that the effect on the brain is identical to gambling.
The attention doesn't really effect Cryptic, even if the UK and the Dutch authorities passed laws about these gambling devices to outlaw them, it won't have any effect on Cryptic since they are based in the USA. So long as the US Senate don't pass any such laws it will continue to remain unaffected.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
It would actually be up to the individual states since gambling is legal in some and not others.
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
I had thought gambling age was a federal law, but after checking Google even that varies by state which I had no idea.
This subject is getting a lot of attention right now but i think that is a good thing. Gaming in general has been let off the hook in terms of a lot of its financial practices with things like loot crates, so I think the attention is needed. EA just pushed too hard and got slapped by a pissed off playerbase.
They may have little choice but to pull out of Holland and the UK if such laws were passed, but still it wouldn't affect Cryptic, just the people in those countries who play this game. As long as Cryptic's profit sheets are in the green after losing a few thousand players (Speculatively) in those countries, then no it wouldn't.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I’d frankly be shocked if a developer or publisher was so utterly stubborn they’d rather loose half their players than move to alternate revenue streams, for a game like STO it could be a suicide move.
But I don’t think STO is in that boat yet, Overwatch, TF; now those guys should be more worried.