Given what behavior we have seen of and what Tilly has told us about herself ("I talk when I'm nervous.... My instructors advise me to work on that."), you find her blurting out an expletive in excitement "inappropriate"? I think it fit her character and the situation just fine.
I also think it fits Stamets since, again, we need to realize that he just discovered the most amazing thing imaginable given his profession and passion for it. If anyone is familiar with Brooklyn Nine Nine, it was basically his "Bingpot!" moment. Characters live by showing depth, and this is it. But then again, as a non-American I literally cannot comprehend the obsession about "expletives" to begin with. To me it seems like looking hard for things to criticize.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The female Klingon who got her face shot off was L'Rell, right?
I wasn't 100% sure myself on Sunday, but After Trek seemed to confirm that. Yet, I've read a lot of people seemingly missing this fact, and it even was brought up on one of the Discovery podcasts I listen to. So, clearly, this is a "thing" and should be clarified.
Yes, it was L'Rell. Which should be a very clear hint as to what our rescued Starfleet crewman is, since L'Rell's house is known as "weavers of lies".
Thanks!
This is the failing of both Discovery's portrayal of the Klingons, and the technical limitations of CBS All Access at the moment. I'm low vision, and I've heard a lot of other blind/low vision fans complaining that there are no audio descriptions for this show (if not CBS All Access, as a whole). It's a big oversight, as quite literally, there is a subset of fans that can't enjoy large chunks of the show.
So, add to that the notion that fully-sighted fans are even struggling with the Klingon scenes (reading the subtitles, recognizing the different Klingons despite the thick makeup, etc.)... it's a bridge too far, as I've said before.
Profanity isn't the issue, because profanity hs actually been with us through all the prior incarnations of Trek. the issue is that it was stilted enough in use that it didn't flow, instead, it stood out. instead of feeling natural enough people ignore it (and viewers DO ignore it when it feels natural), it poked up like a clown nose and fright wig at the State of the Union, or a ragged dirty bum in the middle of an inaugural ball. aka it was inappropriately timed and/or used, didn't fit the characters as shown before, or didn't fit the situation, except to be a flag from the showrunner that "See? we're bein' all mature an' stuff!"
As I said, the issue is writing. You seem to have missed that part.
Profanity has been the occasional "d*mn" from captains or crew usually when things were at a low point. In The Voyage Home, the "over abundance of colorful metaphors" was a minor point that led to a short and entertaining subplot. However, it emphasized that heavy swearing was uncommon to the future. Existing Trek writing shows that the crew use "technobable" to sound educated. Swearing makes you sound uneducated, so it has to be used appropriately in a Trek show or else it feels really out of place. If Harry dropped the F-bomb while Lorca waved goodbye, that would have been appropriate. Instead, the wacky seemingly autistic girl gets to make everyone feel weird and uncomfortable by randomly blurting out obscenities because she lacks self discipline. I guess the writers need to remind the audience that Tilly might be autistic, in case they forgot.
So, rather than explain to you in excruciating detail exactly how you've gotten a neurological condition wrong, I should just reveal my autistic nature by telling you to TRIBBLE off? Is that how it's done in your universe? Because in ours, we tend to go with the excruciating details. More fun that way.
So, rather than explain to you in excruciating detail exactly how you've gotten a neurological condition wrong, I should just reveal my autistic nature by telling you to **** off? Is that how it's done in your universe? Because in ours, we tend to go with the excruciating details. More fun that way.
So instead, you pointlessly look for a reason to become offended?
Once again, I'm talking about writing. A FICTIONAL character who has some kind of vaguely defined "issue". You could say "the autism scale covers a significant number of issues, so your speculation on her undefined personal issue could be incorrect", but instead you go for the "I'm offended on behalf of a fictional character with poorly defined character traits". She could be just a Magical Anime Girl, but many (not just myself) have speculated that she has some form of autism. That her social awkwardness is a symptom of it. I've even seen praise for Star Trek: Discovery including an autistic crew member.
and those people, think that inserting "F*ck" is a great way to distinguish how 'adult' and 'mature' their vision is. Just as they think that stripping Klingons of evrything that made them cool and interesting and converting them to generic "Space Monster" baddies makes it 'dark and gritty', or the way they think that making their main character a "Rebel, because Rebels are Kewl" is a great way to create depth.
My issue is the writing. My opinion is some of what you list here is a symptom of poor writing. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I had an interesting thought earlier in the day after reading up about L'Rell and her human consort. It's about the Klingons we know from TNG onwards: What if these Klingons are not true Klingons? What if they are a specific intentional breeding programme to preserve the Klingon species that could be dying by combining Klingon DNA with Human DNA, the pure breed Klingons the ones in Discovery could be very few in numbers with no way to reproduce or some other reason and their numbers are just too few to coninue and the war between the Empire and Federation is the result of these progenitor Klingons dying rather than expansion or fear or the Federation's rising influence.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I had an interesting thought earlier in the day after reading up about L'Rell and her human consort. It's about the Klingons we know from TNG onwards: What if these Klingons are not true Klingons? What if they are a specific intentional breeding programme to preserve the Klingon species that could be dying by combining Klingon DNA with Human DNA, the pure breed Klingons the ones in Discovery could be very few in numbers with no way to reproduce or some other reason and their numbers are just too few to coninue and the war between the Empire and Federation is the result of these progenitor Klingons dying rather than expansion or fear or the Federation's rising influence.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
Kahless looked nothing like these guys. I think he was a pure breed klingon.
I had an interesting thought earlier in the day after reading up about L'Rell and her human consort. It's about the Klingons we know from TNG onwards: What if these Klingons are not true Klingons? What if they are a specific intentional breeding programme to preserve the Klingon species that could be dying by combining Klingon DNA with Human DNA, the pure breed Klingons the ones in Discovery could be very few in numbers with no way to reproduce or some other reason and their numbers are just too few to coninue and the war between the Empire and Federation is the result of these progenitor Klingons dying rather than expansion or fear or the Federation's rising influence.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
Kahless looked nothing like these guys. I think he was a pure breed klingon.
like anything with zealots and belief especially with klingons, exaggeration is a useful tool in storytelling. If these TNG Klingons know the secrets of their past, adding some human dna to the pure breed kahless, it would be half a clone so he doesn't stand out.
it's an interesting point how little we know of klingons besides their honor and fighting, we know little of the history besides what it told in stories.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I had an interesting thought earlier in the day after reading up about L'Rell and her human consort. It's about the Klingons we know from TNG onwards: What if these Klingons are not true Klingons? What if they are a specific intentional breeding programme to preserve the Klingon species that could be dying by combining Klingon DNA with Human DNA, the pure breed Klingons the ones in Discovery could be very few in numbers with no way to reproduce or some other reason and their numbers are just too few to coninue and the war between the Empire and Federation is the result of these progenitor Klingons dying rather than expansion or fear or the Federation's rising influence.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
Kahless looked nothing like these guys. I think he was a pure breed klingon.
like anything with zealots and belief especially with klingons, exaggeration is a useful tool in storytelling. If these TNG Klingons know the secrets of their past, adding some human dna to the pure breed kahless, it would be half a clone so he doesn't stand out.
it's an interesting point how little we know of klingons besides their honor and fighting, we know little of the history besides what it told in stories.
so far, we've YET to see any of these Discovery Fetish Convention Klingons, not one. If we saw some in other series, fine...but we've not.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
There's crazier ones in this thread :P
I could see them going with something like this so we end up with the beginnings of TOS-ish Klingons by the end of this series. The theory's similar to FASA's old Trek RPG's explanation for the differences IIRC. "Imperial Klingons" being the rarely seen (at the time) "true" Klingons and genetically modified human (and Romulan) variants designed to fight on worlds colonised by those species. Doesn't hold up with the Enterprise canon explanation of course.
I had an interesting thought earlier in the day after reading up about L'Rell and her human consort. It's about the Klingons we know from TNG onwards: What if these Klingons are not true Klingons? What if they are a specific intentional breeding programme to preserve the Klingon species that could be dying by combining Klingon DNA with Human DNA, the pure breed Klingons the ones in Discovery could be very few in numbers with no way to reproduce or some other reason and their numbers are just too few to coninue and the war between the Empire and Federation is the result of these progenitor Klingons dying rather than expansion or fear or the Federation's rising influence.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
Kahless looked nothing like these guys. I think he was a pure breed klingon.
like anything with zealots and belief especially with klingons, exaggeration is a useful tool in storytelling. If these TNG Klingons know the secrets of their past, adding some human dna to the pure breed kahless, it would be half a clone so he doesn't stand out.
it's an interesting point how little we know of klingons besides their honor and fighting, we know little of the history besides what it told in stories.
so far, we've YET to see any of these Discovery Fetish Convention Klingons, not one. If we saw some in other series, fine...but we've not.
Problem: You're still hoping theyre going to somehow address how these differences exist, when it's just a retcon. I mean, if the physical changes didn't do it, having them do everything abhorrent on screen with NO honour, or historical tie, should have, and if that didn't do it, the comletely-not-a-D7-D7 should've made it absolutely clear.
Teh only thing they kept were a few words and the language, everything else was changed to destroy, erase, or annihilate anything and everything that was actually interesting, cultural or cool about Klingons. They're just another savage space monster now, one with bad teeth and fixed, unchanging faces.
The Klingons from the TOS era didn't seem very honor-focused to me. And that continues into the TOS movies.
Maybe you just have to consider the possibility t hat the Klingon culture was actually not static and that there were times were the didn't all subscribe to the Viking Samurai culture. And we know from DS9 that the Klingons have no issue rewriting their history when it suits themt.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I had an interesting thought earlier in the day after reading up about L'Rell and her human consort. It's about the Klingons we know from TNG onwards: What if these Klingons are not true Klingons? What if they are a specific intentional breeding programme to preserve the Klingon species that could be dying by combining Klingon DNA with Human DNA, the pure breed Klingons the ones in Discovery could be very few in numbers with no way to reproduce or some other reason and their numbers are just too few to coninue and the war between the Empire and Federation is the result of these progenitor Klingons dying rather than expansion or fear or the Federation's rising influence.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
Kahless looked nothing like these guys. I think he was a pure breed klingon.
like anything with zealots and belief especially with klingons, exaggeration is a useful tool in storytelling. If these TNG Klingons know the secrets of their past, adding some human dna to the pure breed kahless, it would be half a clone so he doesn't stand out.
it's an interesting point how little we know of klingons besides their honor and fighting, we know little of the history besides what it told in stories.
so far, we've YET to see any of these Discovery Fetish Convention Klingons, not one. If we saw some in other series, fine...but we've not.
Problem: You're still hoping theyre going to somehow address how these differences exist, when it's just a retcon. I mean, if the physical changes didn't do it, having them do everything abhorrent on screen with NO honour, or historical tie, should have, and if that didn't do it, the comletely-not-a-D7-D7 should've made it absolutely clear.
Teh only thing they kept were a few words and the language, everything else was changed to destroy, erase, or annihilate anything and everything that was actually interesting, cultural or cool about Klingons. They're just another savage space monster now, one with bad teeth and fixed, unchanging faces.
Retcon: cheap, lazy method of convenience....zero thinking...same goes for reboots and remakes.
Even Enterprise addressed the Klingon head thing, and in a reasonable way, and explained Worf's reluctance to talk of it.
I had an interesting thought earlier in the day after reading up about L'Rell and her human consort. It's about the Klingons we know from TNG onwards: What if these Klingons are not true Klingons? What if they are a specific intentional breeding programme to preserve the Klingon species that could be dying by combining Klingon DNA with Human DNA, the pure breed Klingons the ones in Discovery could be very few in numbers with no way to reproduce or some other reason and their numbers are just too few to coninue and the war between the Empire and Federation is the result of these progenitor Klingons dying rather than expansion or fear or the Federation's rising influence.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
Kahless looked nothing like these guys. I think he was a pure breed klingon.
like anything with zealots and belief especially with klingons, exaggeration is a useful tool in storytelling. If these TNG Klingons know the secrets of their past, adding some human dna to the pure breed kahless, it would be half a clone so he doesn't stand out.
it's an interesting point how little we know of klingons besides their honor and fighting, we know little of the history besides what it told in stories.
so far, we've YET to see any of these Discovery Fetish Convention Klingons, not one. If we saw some in other series, fine...but we've not.
Problem: You're still hoping theyre going to somehow address how these differences exist, when it's just a retcon. I mean, if the physical changes didn't do it, having them do everything abhorrent on screen with NO honour, or historical tie, should have, and if that didn't do it, the comletely-not-a-D7-D7 should've made it absolutely clear.
Teh only thing they kept were a few words and the language, everything else was changed to destroy, erase, or annihilate anything and everything that was actually interesting, cultural or cool about Klingons. They're just another savage space monster now, one with bad teeth and fixed, unchanging faces.
The Klingons from the TOS era didn't seem very honor-focused to me. And that continues into the TOS movies.
Maybe you just have to consider the possibility t hat the Klingon culture was actually not static and that there were times were the didn't all subscribe to the Viking Samurai culture. And we know from DS9 that the Klingons have no issue rewriting their history when it suits themt.
*slow clap*
See, this is why I look at TNG with a bit of jaundice eye, these days. It still has GREAT stories, but Sweet Christmas, the franchise can't move without tripping over TNG.
The boys on Mission Log even pointed out, during their TOS run, that the Klingons sometimes acted like Romulans. And it's true. This is why I'm trying to take Discovery in from the perspective of the 23rd century only (and, for that matter, the 23rd century as viewed from 2017, not necessarily 1966 or 1987).
Question: what is the name of the D7 class, in the original Klingon? Also, I could barely see any part of the ship in that short clip. Some how the editing to throw in that crappy cgi model made it so you could see most of the ship, but they didn't show the actual ship? feh... terrible comparison.
Question: what is the name of the D7 class, in the original Klingon? Also, I could barely see any part of the ship in that short clip. Some how the editing to throw in that crappy cgi model made it so you could see most of the ship, but they didn't show the actual ship? feh... terrible comparison.
Think it's the same one Kol used in the previous episode with the familiar "boom and ball" but large triangular wings sweeping forward, should be able to get a proper look at it from when it was parked next to T'Kuvma's ship.
Comments
I also think it fits Stamets since, again, we need to realize that he just discovered the most amazing thing imaginable given his profession and passion for it. If anyone is familiar with Brooklyn Nine Nine, it was basically his "Bingpot!" moment. Characters live by showing depth, and this is it. But then again, as a non-American I literally cannot comprehend the obsession about "expletives" to begin with. To me it seems like looking hard for things to criticize.
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This is the failing of both Discovery's portrayal of the Klingons, and the technical limitations of CBS All Access at the moment. I'm low vision, and I've heard a lot of other blind/low vision fans complaining that there are no audio descriptions for this show (if not CBS All Access, as a whole). It's a big oversight, as quite literally, there is a subset of fans that can't enjoy large chunks of the show.
So, add to that the notion that fully-sighted fans are even struggling with the Klingon scenes (reading the subtitles, recognizing the different Klingons despite the thick makeup, etc.)... it's a bridge too far, as I've said before.
Profanity has been the occasional "d*mn" from captains or crew usually when things were at a low point. In The Voyage Home, the "over abundance of colorful metaphors" was a minor point that led to a short and entertaining subplot. However, it emphasized that heavy swearing was uncommon to the future. Existing Trek writing shows that the crew use "technobable" to sound educated. Swearing makes you sound uneducated, so it has to be used appropriately in a Trek show or else it feels really out of place. If Harry dropped the F-bomb while Lorca waved goodbye, that would have been appropriate. Instead, the wacky seemingly autistic girl gets to make everyone feel weird and uncomfortable by randomly blurting out obscenities because she lacks self discipline. I guess the writers need to remind the audience that Tilly might be autistic, in case they forgot.
So, rather than explain to you in excruciating detail exactly how you've gotten a neurological condition wrong, I should just reveal my autistic nature by telling you to TRIBBLE off? Is that how it's done in your universe? Because in ours, we tend to go with the excruciating details. More fun that way.
Once again, I'm talking about writing. A FICTIONAL character who has some kind of vaguely defined "issue". You could say "the autism scale covers a significant number of issues, so your speculation on her undefined personal issue could be incorrect", but instead you go for the "I'm offended on behalf of a fictional character with poorly defined character traits". She could be just a Magical Anime Girl, but many (not just myself) have speculated that she has some form of autism. That her social awkwardness is a symptom of it. I've even seen praise for Star Trek: Discovery including an autistic crew member. My issue is the writing. My opinion is some of what you list here is a symptom of poor writing. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Can we talk about the fact that the actual ship (seen around 0:39 mark) is called a D7 in dialogue?
So what? It's not a D7....looks nothing like a D7.
Looks more like a romulan miracle worker ship to me.
What if all this intentional breeding has been going on for severeal centuries and the Klingons we saw in Enterprise are the second or third generation of these mixed breed Klingons we all know?
It is a crazy conspiracy, but one i have been thinking of for a few hours.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Kahless looked nothing like these guys. I think he was a pure breed klingon.
like anything with zealots and belief especially with klingons, exaggeration is a useful tool in storytelling. If these TNG Klingons know the secrets of their past, adding some human dna to the pure breed kahless, it would be half a clone so he doesn't stand out.
it's an interesting point how little we know of klingons besides their honor and fighting, we know little of the history besides what it told in stories.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
so far, we've YET to see any of these Discovery Fetish Convention Klingons, not one. If we saw some in other series, fine...but we've not.
There's crazier ones in this thread :P
I could see them going with something like this so we end up with the beginnings of TOS-ish Klingons by the end of this series. The theory's similar to FASA's old Trek RPG's explanation for the differences IIRC. "Imperial Klingons" being the rarely seen (at the time) "true" Klingons and genetically modified human (and Romulan) variants designed to fight on worlds colonised by those species. Doesn't hold up with the Enterprise canon explanation of course.
The Klingons from the TOS era didn't seem very honor-focused to me. And that continues into the TOS movies.
Maybe you just have to consider the possibility t hat the Klingon culture was actually not static and that there were times were the didn't all subscribe to the Viking Samurai culture. And we know from DS9 that the Klingons have no issue rewriting their history when it suits themt.
Two can play that game! Opting out of watching any more of it to save myself the pain of watching Star Trek reach newer lows than the JJ TRIBBLE. :P
Retcon: cheap, lazy method of convenience....zero thinking...same goes for reboots and remakes.
Even Enterprise addressed the Klingon head thing, and in a reasonable way, and explained Worf's reluctance to talk of it.
*slow clap*
See, this is why I look at TNG with a bit of jaundice eye, these days. It still has GREAT stories, but Sweet Christmas, the franchise can't move without tripping over TNG.
The boys on Mission Log even pointed out, during their TOS run, that the Klingons sometimes acted like Romulans. And it's true. This is why I'm trying to take Discovery in from the perspective of the 23rd century only (and, for that matter, the 23rd century as viewed from 2017, not necessarily 1966 or 1987).
My character Tsin'xing
Think it's the same one Kol used in the previous episode with the familiar "boom and ball" but large triangular wings sweeping forward, should be able to get a proper look at it from when it was parked next to T'Kuvma's ship.