They said that they were planning to take the "red angel" storyline further into the realm of the supernatural and discussion of religion than even DS9 took the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths, but Kurtzman and CBS vetoed it. I'll update this post with a link if I can get it.
Yeah, no. If it exists it's by definition natural. Just because it can do magic doesn't make it not natural. Things like the Prophets simply see out of time. Vulcan and Ocampan mind powers are psionic energy. The existence of the Red Angels would make them just an existing entity. The supernatural is something that can't exist because it is incongruent with how reality functions. As 'magic' is part of how the universe of Trek works, the entities that use said 'magic' clearly aren't supernatural anymore than Birds are supernatural for using magnets.
"Certainly the episode last night seemed to plant the seeds. Pike's father is established as having taught comparative religion. He's open to the possibility that the New Eden colonists' religion may be true, at least in a sense. He's clearly there as a foil to Burnham, who comes down on the side of rational materialism. Despite Burnham having seen the Red Angel, she remains convinced that it's just some sort of advanced alien being.
The New Eden religion medley being true and the Red Angels being advanced aliens are the same conclusion. Burnham just sees no reason to use fantastical words to describe something who's only hard fact is their existence. Pike seems to be taking the position that, if they exist that is suddenly proof of any and all claims made about them. The old 'New York exists, ergo Spider-Man exists' argument.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
So this is interesting, if of questionable veracity (let me reiterate, it's a "friend of a friend" thing and I cannot verify it). A forum member on TrekBBS claiming to be a friend of a member of the production crew has an alternate explanation for Gretchen Berg and Aaron Harberts being removed from DSC. They said that they were planning to take the "red angel" storyline further into the realm of the supernatural and discussion of religion than even DS9 took the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths, but Kurtzman and CBS vetoed it. I'll update this post with a link if I can get it.
Quoth the friend who told me about this after reading it on AlternateHistory.com, "They planned on Pike becoming fully "born again," for example, and were going to explicitly add supernatural elements to Trek canon (well, more explicit than the Prophets/Pah-Wraiths anyway). This may be walked back by Kurtzman later in the season somewhat, so as not to trigger incredible bouts of fan rage.
"Certainly the episode last night seemed to plant the seeds. Pike's father is established as having taught comparative religion. He's open to the possibility that the New Eden colonists' religion may be true, at least in a sense. He's clearly there as a foil to Burnham, who comes down on the side of rational materialism. Despite Burnham having seen the Red Angel, she remains convinced that it's just some sort of advanced alien being.
"Oh, and Tilly starts seeing a childhood acquaintance who is dead."
Have not yet found the original post with this, but here's a reference to it. The primary source is apparently somebody named John E. Price.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It will be interesting to see if Tilly's childhood acquaintance is a mycellial manifestion just like Culber's ghost, part of the mystery that is leading the Discovery across the galaxy, or a friendly telepathic alien that borrowed a few of Tilly's memories to create a persona that Tilly would trust.
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
They came from the prime future to the prime past. Old Spock has TUC Spock's crew pic, old Spock would know if he were in a different past. KT Spock recognises the correct point of divergence.
That's what the film is portraying. You clearly like convoluted madness but it runs counter to what is onscreen and what the filmmakers have pointed out, so your postulating is neither canon or official.
(Yes I know the different people involved with the setting have different ideas about what the KT is, but all of them disagree with you as does the general mechanism by which time travel in Trek generally works.)
Unless you can provide proof of your claims and counterproof to what the films show then why keep posting the same unsupported hypotheses?
Do you hope to convince others that the films portray themselves incorrectly? Do you hope to somehow convince yourself the films work differently to how they do? Are you just unable to accept straight lines? Are you hoping CBS are going to ring you up and ask you to write some of this gibberish into DSC?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Interesting start for Discovery in season 2, i find Anson's acting a lot more watchable than Isaacs. Anson playing Pike is serious but fair compared to dark and moody with Isaacs playing as Lorca.
I'm uncertain what to make of Stamets though or even the dead Cuiber. Very little shown of what is going on there aside from a very dejected Stamets who finds his strength in episode 2 and 3.
I also don't think much of Reno at this point either.
I like that this lesser known bridge crew on the discovery bridge is getting more time in front of the camera, it would be nice to explore more of these characters out a bit rather than focusing on a season long arc of yet another threat. Bring in a sort of TNG style season to shake things up a little and focus a bit more on other events, people, politics and races and what not.
This leads on to the reveal of this angel creature. At first i didn't give it much thought to an Iconian but having read the last page or so on this thread, i suppose it is possible it could be Iconian but then again it could be something else completely. I get the sense this Angel is one of death. Spock will have more clues.
Now about Spock? Amanda gave birth to Spock on 2230, she would of been 20 years-old and Sarek 65 years-old.
So by 2257 Spock would of been 27 years-old.
When he retired from Starfleet he would of been 63 years old
By the time he was seen on Romulus before Sarek's death? He would of been 138 years-old.
By the Hobus event he would of been 157 years-old.
Finally if you account for his death 20 years later in the alternative reality? He would of been nearly 180 years-old.
So all that tracks with the estimated life of a typical Vulcan lifespan even if it could be considered a few decades short of what you'd expect.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
They came from the prime future to the prime past. Old Spock has TUC Spock's crew pic, old Spock would know if he were in a different past. KT Spock recognises the correct point of divergence.
That's what the film is portraying. You clearly like convoluted madness but it runs counter to what is onscreen and what the filmmakers have pointed out, so your postulating is neither canon or official.
(Yes I know the different people involved with the setting have different ideas about what the KT is, but all of them disagree with you as does the general mechanism by which time travel in Trek generally works.)
Unless you can provide proof of your claims and counterproof to what the films show then why keep posting the same unsupported hypotheses?
Do you hope to convince others that the films portray themselves incorrectly? Do you hope to somehow convince yourself the films work differently to how they do? Are you just unable to accept straight lines? Are you hoping CBS are going to ring you up and ask you to write some of this gibberish into DSC?
There is no evidence that they came from the prime future to the prime past. There is only evidence that they came from a reality that may be the prime future or looks like the prime future and went to a reality that may be the prime past or looks like the prime past. The point of divergence is where the branched timeline was created or where the intended future of a parallel universe was changed from something resembling the 24th Century we know to a completely different future.
Where did I make an argument for or against what the Kelvin Timeline was? My argument for it has always been that we don't know. There is no canon for whether the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe or a branched timeline since any explanations are from interviews. If it is not on the screen, then it doesn't count. As I said before, a canonical explanation would require mentioning quantum signatures or chronitons. The photo only depicts that old Spock is from the Prime Universe or a parallel universe that is extremely similar to the Prime Universe and he seemed more concerned with dealing with the mess Nero created than determining whether he was in his universe.
As far as other evidence, Star Trek 2009 treats time travel completely different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. It has always been we must fix the past to restore the present to its rightful timeline or we can't change anything in the past or else our present is changed. So if we go by what has been established by previous instances of time travel in Star Trek, then only the events of Enterprise exist after Star Trek 2009. TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. Since canon only exists by what is shown on screen and not in interviews, then it doesn't matter that someone said that the other shows are perfectly fine. Every time travel instance has to operate by the same rules, either changing the past changes the present or changing the past creates a new reality. Star Trek 2009 can't operate by a different set of rules as the other instances of time travel in Star Trek.
Either Star Trek 2009 is right and every other instance of time travel is wrong or every other instance of time travel is right and Star Trek 2009 is wrong. If Star Trek 2009 is wrong and it deals with time travel, then TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. If Star Trek 2009 is right and it deals with time travel, then it destroys any sense of drama in certain time travel episodes. Picard didn't save the 21st Century from the Borg, he just created a new reality where the Borg were defeated in the 21st Century and can't go back to his original reality. The descendants from Children of Time are perfectly fine and Odo didn't sacrifice a bunch of descendants to oblivion just so that they can go back to DS9. It also destroys all meaning to the Temporal Integrity Commission.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
They came from the prime future to the prime past. Old Spock has TUC Spock's crew pic, old Spock would know if he were in a different past. KT Spock recognises the correct point of divergence.
That's what the film is portraying. You clearly like convoluted madness but it runs counter to what is onscreen and what the filmmakers have pointed out, so your postulating is neither canon or official.
(Yes I know the different people involved with the setting have different ideas about what the KT is, but all of them disagree with you as does the general mechanism by which time travel in Trek generally works.)
Unless you can provide proof of your claims and counterproof to what the films show then why keep posting the same unsupported hypotheses?
Do you hope to convince others that the films portray themselves incorrectly? Do you hope to somehow convince yourself the films work differently to how they do? Are you just unable to accept straight lines? Are you hoping CBS are going to ring you up and ask you to write some of this gibberish into DSC?
There is no evidence that they came from the prime future to the prime past. There is only evidence that they came from a reality that may be the prime future or looks like the prime future and went to a reality that may be the prime past or looks like the prime past. The point of divergence is where the branched timeline was created or where the intended future of a parallel universe was changed from something resembling the 24th Century we know to a completely different future.
Where did I make an argument for or against what the Kelvin Timeline was? My argument for it has always been that we don't know. There is no canon for whether the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe or a branched timeline since any explanations are from interviews. If it is not on the screen, then it doesn't count. As I said before, a canonical explanation would require mentioning quantum signatures or chronitons. The photo only depicts that old Spock is from the Prime Universe or a parallel universe that is extremely similar to the Prime Universe and he seemed more concerned with dealing with the mess Nero created than determining whether he was in his universe.
As far as other evidence, Star Trek 2009 treats time travel completely different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. It has always been we must fix the past to restore the present to its rightful timeline or we can't change anything in the past or else our present is changed. So if we go by what has been established by previous instances of time travel in Star Trek, then only the events of Enterprise exist after Star Trek 2009. TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. Since canon only exists by what is shown on screen and not in interviews, then it doesn't matter that someone said that the other shows are perfectly fine. Every time travel instance has to operate by the same rules, either changing the past changes the present or changing the past creates a new reality. Star Trek 2009 can't operate by a different set of rules as the other instances of time travel in Star Trek.
Either Star Trek 2009 is right and every other instance of time travel is wrong or every other instance of time travel is right and Star Trek 2009 is wrong. If Star Trek 2009 is wrong and it deals with time travel, then TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. If Star Trek 2009 is right and it deals with time travel, then it destroys any sense of drama in certain time travel episodes. Picard didn't save the 21st Century from the Borg, he just created a new reality where the Borg were defeated in the 21st Century and can't go back to his original reality. The descendants from Children of Time are perfectly fine and Odo didn't sacrifice a bunch of descendants to oblivion just so that they can go back to DS9. It also destroys all meaning to the Temporal Integrity Commission.
Got it, you happily ignore what is presented in favour of headcanon. Thanks for clearing it up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
They came from the prime future to the prime past. Old Spock has TUC Spock's crew pic, old Spock would know if he were in a different past. KT Spock recognises the correct point of divergence.
That's what the film is portraying. You clearly like convoluted madness but it runs counter to what is onscreen and what the filmmakers have pointed out, so your postulating is neither canon or official.
(Yes I know the different people involved with the setting have different ideas about what the KT is, but all of them disagree with you as does the general mechanism by which time travel in Trek generally works.)
Unless you can provide proof of your claims and counterproof to what the films show then why keep posting the same unsupported hypotheses?
Do you hope to convince others that the films portray themselves incorrectly? Do you hope to somehow convince yourself the films work differently to how they do? Are you just unable to accept straight lines? Are you hoping CBS are going to ring you up and ask you to write some of this gibberish into DSC?
There is no evidence that they came from the prime future to the prime past. There is only evidence that they came from a reality that may be the prime future or looks like the prime future and went to a reality that may be the prime past or looks like the prime past. The point of divergence is where the branched timeline was created or where the intended future of a parallel universe was changed from something resembling the 24th Century we know to a completely different future.
Where did I make an argument for or against what the Kelvin Timeline was? My argument for it has always been that we don't know. There is no canon for whether the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe or a branched timeline since any explanations are from interviews. If it is not on the screen, then it doesn't count. As I said before, a canonical explanation would require mentioning quantum signatures or chronitons. The photo only depicts that old Spock is from the Prime Universe or a parallel universe that is extremely similar to the Prime Universe and he seemed more concerned with dealing with the mess Nero created than determining whether he was in his universe.
As far as other evidence, Star Trek 2009 treats time travel completely different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. It has always been we must fix the past to restore the present to its rightful timeline or we can't change anything in the past or else our present is changed. So if we go by what has been established by previous instances of time travel in Star Trek, then only the events of Enterprise exist after Star Trek 2009. TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. Since canon only exists by what is shown on screen and not in interviews, then it doesn't matter that someone said that the other shows are perfectly fine. Every time travel instance has to operate by the same rules, either changing the past changes the present or changing the past creates a new reality. Star Trek 2009 can't operate by a different set of rules as the other instances of time travel in Star Trek.
Either Star Trek 2009 is right and every other instance of time travel is wrong or every other instance of time travel is right and Star Trek 2009 is wrong. If Star Trek 2009 is wrong and it deals with time travel, then TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. If Star Trek 2009 is right and it deals with time travel, then it destroys any sense of drama in certain time travel episodes. Picard didn't save the 21st Century from the Borg, he just created a new reality where the Borg were defeated in the 21st Century and can't go back to his original reality. The descendants from Children of Time are perfectly fine and Odo didn't sacrifice a bunch of descendants to oblivion just so that they can go back to DS9. It also destroys all meaning to the Temporal Integrity Commission.
Got it, you happily ignore what is presented in favour of headcanon. Thanks for clearing it up.
so you don't have an argument and go straight for dismissal. classy.
Read the either/or again, because even I can see the hole in his argument, and it has nothing to do with church-approved dogma.
His argument hinges on it being only time Travel, in a setting we KNOW has parallel universes. (Worf did a quick walking tour of a whole shedload of them.)
If it's not only time-travel, then you get the following;
Spock and Nero went back into a past, in a universe that mostly resembled their own and closely enough to contain many of the same genetic/cultural combinations each would have been familiar with through either experience, or history classes...but not the past as it is in their point of origin.
This might be seen as "Diagonal" travel through time-going into a past-the past of a close alternate universe, but not "The" Past which is on their home timeline (and was visited via various methods throughout the property.)
This allows for both options to be both true, and false.
that is, you have vertical time-travel on the graph (Past, Present, Future in a single timeline) and Horizontal time travel (visit the Mirror Universe, or Worf's little 'verse jumping vacation in TNG), but what Spock and Nero did, was Diagonal.
Diagonal travel works and removes the problems with the difference between Star Trek 2009 and other instances of time travel in Star Trek.
It is only our assumptions that each parallel universe happens at the same time. However, parallel universe could be created at different times. If each universe has the same initial conditions, but different times, then it would result in parallel universes existing at the same time, but in different centuries. So travelling to one parallel universe could have me encounter myself as an old man while travelling to another parallel universe could have me encounter myself as a kid without using time travel.
Going by your bucket example, normally the sand would be poured in the buckets at the same time, but having one bucket where the sand is poured in a day later would result in the later bucket to have mostly the same conditions as the original buckets, but would always be a day slower.
Horizontal travel to different parallel universes existing in different times is the illusion of time travel without having to worry about temporal paradoxes while diagonal travel is time travel without having to worry about temporal paradoxes.
Diagonal travel works and removes the problems with the difference between Star Trek 2009 and other instances of time travel in Star Trek. <snip rest of post>
Oh just stop. Every instance of time travel in Star Trek is different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", the time travel changes the protagonists' entire timeline retroactively and only Guinan is even aware there's a difference (for explanation, she's previously established to have some kind of "noodle incident" association with Q). In "Past Tense" the time travel changes the timeline for everybody but the Defiant crew, who are still there to perceive the change. In "Time and Again", breaking a predestination paradox is possible and desirable and reboots the episode, in STO it's apparently the protagonist-preferred state of the universe to have every damn thing be a predestination paradox.
If you think there's some kind of "rule" that the Kelvin Timeline is breaking, you're flatly delusional.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Diagonal travel works and removes the problems with the difference between Star Trek 2009 and other instances of time travel in Star Trek. <snip rest of post>
Oh just stop. Every instance of time travel in Star Trek is different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", the time travel changes the protagonists' entire timeline retroactively and only Guinan is even aware there's a difference (for explanation, she's previously established to have some kind of "noodle incident" association with Q). In "Past Tense" the time travel changes the timeline for everybody but the Defiant crew, who are still there to perceive the change. In "Time and Again", breaking a predestination paradox is possible and desirable and reboots the episode, in STO it's apparently the protagonist-preferred state of the universe to have every damn thing be a predestination paradox.
If you think there's some kind of "rule" that the Kelvin Timeline is breaking, you're flatly delusional.
The only rule that Star Trek had for time travel is changing the past changes the present. Spock and Kirk have to go to the 1930s to stop McCoy from saving a woman so their Federation still exists in The City on the Edge of Forever. The Enterprise-C had to go back to its present to save the Klingons from a Romulan attack in Yesterday's Enterprise. The Bell Riots had to happen in Past Tense or the Federation would not exist. First Contact required the Enterprise-E crew to go back in time to stop the Borg in the 21st Century or Earth is assimilated. The entire Agents of Yesterday cross-faction episodes is all about changing the past changes the present.
If a new reality is created every time a temporal event happens, then there was no point for Spock and Kirk to prevent McCoy from saving that woman, the Enterprise-C to go back in time to save a bunch of Klingons from Romulans, Sisko to impersonate Gabriel Bell, or the Enterprise-E to go back in time to save the 21st Century from a Borg invasion. Their original reality is perfectly fine and they just needed to get used to living in a new reality instead of creating a completely new reality that is similar to their original reality.
Diagonal travel works and removes the problems with the difference between Star Trek 2009 and other instances of time travel in Star Trek. <snip rest of post>
Oh just stop. Every instance of time travel in Star Trek is different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", the time travel changes the protagonists' entire timeline retroactively and only Guinan is even aware there's a difference (for explanation, she's previously established to have some kind of "noodle incident" association with Q). In "Past Tense" the time travel changes the timeline for everybody but the Defiant crew, who are still there to perceive the change. In "Time and Again", breaking a predestination paradox is possible and desirable and reboots the episode, in STO it's apparently the protagonist-preferred state of the universe to have every damn thing be a predestination paradox.
If you think there's some kind of "rule" that the Kelvin Timeline is breaking, you're flatly delusional.
The only rule that Star Trek had for time travel is changing the past changes the present. Spock and Kirk have to go to the 1930s to stop McCoy from saving a woman so their Federation still exists in The City on the Edge of Forever. The Enterprise-C had to go back to its present to save the Klingons from a Romulan attack in Yesterday's Enterprise. The Bell Riots had to happen in Past Tense or the Federation would not exist. First Contact required the Enterprise-E crew to go back in time to stop the Borg in the 21st Century or Earth is assimilated. The entire Agents of Yesterday cross-faction episodes is all about changing the past changes the present.
If a new reality is created every time a temporal event happens, then there was no point for Spock and Kirk to prevent McCoy from saving that woman, the Enterprise-C to go back in time to save a bunch of Klingons from Romulans, Sisko to impersonate Gabriel Bell, or the Enterprise-E to go back in time to save the 21st Century from a Borg invasion. Their original reality is perfectly fine and they just needed to get used to living in a new reality instead of creating a completely new reality that is similar to their original reality.
So, maybe a new reality isn't created every time a temporal event happens. Why this time and not other times? Ask Q.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Diagonal travel works and removes the problems with the difference between Star Trek 2009 and other instances of time travel in Star Trek. <snip rest of post>
Oh just stop. Every instance of time travel in Star Trek is different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", the time travel changes the protagonists' entire timeline retroactively and only Guinan is even aware there's a difference (for explanation, she's previously established to have some kind of "noodle incident" association with Q). In "Past Tense" the time travel changes the timeline for everybody but the Defiant crew, who are still there to perceive the change. In "Time and Again", breaking a predestination paradox is possible and desirable and reboots the episode, in STO it's apparently the protagonist-preferred state of the universe to have every damn thing be a predestination paradox.
If you think there's some kind of "rule" that the Kelvin Timeline is breaking, you're flatly delusional.
The only rule that Star Trek had for time travel is changing the past changes the present. Spock and Kirk have to go to the 1930s to stop McCoy from saving a woman so their Federation still exists in The City on the Edge of Forever. The Enterprise-C had to go back to its present to save the Klingons from a Romulan attack in Yesterday's Enterprise. The Bell Riots had to happen in Past Tense or the Federation would not exist. First Contact required the Enterprise-E crew to go back in time to stop the Borg in the 21st Century or Earth is assimilated. The entire Agents of Yesterday cross-faction episodes is all about changing the past changes the present.
If a new reality is created every time a temporal event happens, then there was no point for Spock and Kirk to prevent McCoy from saving that woman, the Enterprise-C to go back in time to save a bunch of Klingons from Romulans, Sisko to impersonate Gabriel Bell, or the Enterprise-E to go back in time to save the 21st Century from a Borg invasion. Their original reality is perfectly fine and they just needed to get used to living in a new reality instead of creating a completely new reality that is similar to their original reality.
So, maybe a new reality isn't created every time a temporal event happens. Why this time and not other times? Ask Q.
And why is this time any different from every other instance? There is no special circumstances why Star Trek 2009 is different from any other instance of time travel. If a new reality was created for Star Trek 2009, then a new reality had to be created for The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact, Children of Time, and Past Tense.
So either a new reality was created in Star Trek 2009, what we know about time travel in Star Trek is completely wrong, and the other series are perfectly fine, Star Trek 2009 erased the other series, or Star Trek 2009 happened in a parallel universe and the other series are perfectly fine.
Because it was different this time. It was explained in the movie. This is maybe different from earlier instances but it was written this way.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
yeah, and WHY was it different this time? because paramount wanted their own 'verse to play in, because they can't use prime except for movies - creating an entirely new timeline and leaving prime alone (aside from romulus, which they probably had to get CBS' okay for) means they can then do whatever they want with it
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
So either a new reality was created in Star Trek 2009, what we know about time travel in Star Trek is completely wrong, and the other series are perfectly fine, Star Trek 2009 erased the other series, or Star Trek 2009 happened in a parallel universe and the other series are perfectly fine.
Or maybe... there are several kinds of "Time Travel" and results vary based on how you do it.
Because it was different this time. It was explained in the movie. This is maybe different from earlier instances but it was written this way.
There was no explanation for how it was any different. The only explanation is from this one scene.
SPOCK: The engineering comprehension necessary to artificially create a black hole may suggest an answer. Such technology could theoretically be manipulated to create a tunnel through space-time.
MCCOY: Dammit man, I'm a doctor, not a physicist. Are you actually suggesting they're from the future?!
SPOCK: If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
...
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.
Spock doesn't know if Nero came from the 24th Century or another universe that looks like the 24th Century. Nero is someone that destroyed Spock's home planet, has incredibly advanced technology, and needs to be stopped. So contemplating whether Nero came from the future or a parallel universe is a waste of resources until after Nero is defeated. If Spock wanted to figure out if Nero and Spock came from the future or a parallel universe, then he could just scan old Spock's quantum signature after the movie is over.
Any time travel or dimensional travel alters the flow of history since it is an external force. Creating a tunnel through space-time means that it can connect any two points in any dimension and any time together. We will likely never know if dimensional travel, time travel, or both was used, but alternate reality is the perfect description for the Kelvin Timeline.
(...)
Any time travel or dimensional travel alters the flow of history since it is an external force. Creating a tunnel through space-time means that it can connect any two points in any dimension and any time together. We will likely never know if dimensional travel, time travel, or both was used, but alternate reality is the perfect description for the Kelvin Timeline.
But we know what happened. Then Spock explains it again, for the viewer. It's exposition. He describes a new timeline, Uhura says the term "alternate reality" which Spock agrees on. So the two are interchangeable in this case.
Whatever the outcome, all your theorizing how it works and why this is different is irrelevant, it is different because. As far as CBS/Paramount are concerned, this is a new timeline starting with the destruction of the Kelvin - not a parallel universe with it's own (similar, slightly different) history. The official line is - hence the name - Kelvin timeline as described by Spock. Technically he could have told Uhura was wrong, but since it stands it means there is no difference in the two terms. Maybe "alternate reality" and "alternate universe" are also different things.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I also agree the KT is a separate timeline/reality/etc. NOT because characters on screen were guessing about what happened for 30 seconds, but because the companies that actually own this stuff in real life have said that. Characters on screen have guessed and been wrong about plenty of things over the years, so that kind of dialogue in itself proves nothing. The most you can say based on that convo is that that handful of characters BELIEVE their theory.
> @thegrandnagus1 said: > I also agree the KT is a separate timeline/reality/etc. NOT because characters on screen were guessing about what happened for 30 seconds, but because the companies that actually own this stuff in real life have said that. Characters on screen have guessed and been wrong about plenty of things over the years, so that kind of dialogue in itself proves nothing. The most you can say based on that convo is that that handful of characters BELIEVE their theory.
This is not how screenwriting works, though. The characters on-screen do not guess, lie or theorize about their situation unless this is clearly stated through stylistic means. Exposition dialogue is for the audience and establishes facts, which is what happened there. Still, same result.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
Yeah, no. If it exists it's by definition natural. Just because it can do magic doesn't make it not natural. Things like the Prophets simply see out of time. Vulcan and Ocampan mind powers are psionic energy. The existence of the Red Angels would make them just an existing entity. The supernatural is something that can't exist because it is incongruent with how reality functions. As 'magic' is part of how the universe of Trek works, the entities that use said 'magic' clearly aren't supernatural anymore than Birds are supernatural for using magnets.
The New Eden religion medley being true and the Red Angels being advanced aliens are the same conclusion. Burnham just sees no reason to use fantastical words to describe something who's only hard fact is their existence. Pike seems to be taking the position that, if they exist that is suddenly proof of any and all claims made about them. The old 'New York exists, ergo Spider-Man exists' argument.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
Have not yet found the original post with this, but here's a reference to it. The primary source is apparently somebody named John E. Price.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Which to be honest, I wouldn't be against.
They came from the prime future to the prime past. Old Spock has TUC Spock's crew pic, old Spock would know if he were in a different past. KT Spock recognises the correct point of divergence.
That's what the film is portraying. You clearly like convoluted madness but it runs counter to what is onscreen and what the filmmakers have pointed out, so your postulating is neither canon or official.
(Yes I know the different people involved with the setting have different ideas about what the KT is, but all of them disagree with you as does the general mechanism by which time travel in Trek generally works.)
Unless you can provide proof of your claims and counterproof to what the films show then why keep posting the same unsupported hypotheses?
Do you hope to convince others that the films portray themselves incorrectly? Do you hope to somehow convince yourself the films work differently to how they do? Are you just unable to accept straight lines? Are you hoping CBS are going to ring you up and ask you to write some of this gibberish into DSC?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
I'm uncertain what to make of Stamets though or even the dead Cuiber. Very little shown of what is going on there aside from a very dejected Stamets who finds his strength in episode 2 and 3.
I also don't think much of Reno at this point either.
I like that this lesser known bridge crew on the discovery bridge is getting more time in front of the camera, it would be nice to explore more of these characters out a bit rather than focusing on a season long arc of yet another threat. Bring in a sort of TNG style season to shake things up a little and focus a bit more on other events, people, politics and races and what not.
This leads on to the reveal of this angel creature. At first i didn't give it much thought to an Iconian but having read the last page or so on this thread, i suppose it is possible it could be Iconian but then again it could be something else completely. I get the sense this Angel is one of death. Spock will have more clues.
Now about Spock? Amanda gave birth to Spock on 2230, she would of been 20 years-old and Sarek 65 years-old.
So by 2257 Spock would of been 27 years-old.
When he retired from Starfleet he would of been 63 years old
By the time he was seen on Romulus before Sarek's death? He would of been 138 years-old.
By the Hobus event he would of been 157 years-old.
Finally if you account for his death 20 years later in the alternative reality? He would of been nearly 180 years-old.
So all that tracks with the estimated life of a typical Vulcan lifespan even if it could be considered a few decades short of what you'd expect.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
There is no evidence that they came from the prime future to the prime past. There is only evidence that they came from a reality that may be the prime future or looks like the prime future and went to a reality that may be the prime past or looks like the prime past. The point of divergence is where the branched timeline was created or where the intended future of a parallel universe was changed from something resembling the 24th Century we know to a completely different future.
Where did I make an argument for or against what the Kelvin Timeline was? My argument for it has always been that we don't know. There is no canon for whether the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe or a branched timeline since any explanations are from interviews. If it is not on the screen, then it doesn't count. As I said before, a canonical explanation would require mentioning quantum signatures or chronitons. The photo only depicts that old Spock is from the Prime Universe or a parallel universe that is extremely similar to the Prime Universe and he seemed more concerned with dealing with the mess Nero created than determining whether he was in his universe.
As far as other evidence, Star Trek 2009 treats time travel completely different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. It has always been we must fix the past to restore the present to its rightful timeline or we can't change anything in the past or else our present is changed. So if we go by what has been established by previous instances of time travel in Star Trek, then only the events of Enterprise exist after Star Trek 2009. TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. Since canon only exists by what is shown on screen and not in interviews, then it doesn't matter that someone said that the other shows are perfectly fine. Every time travel instance has to operate by the same rules, either changing the past changes the present or changing the past creates a new reality. Star Trek 2009 can't operate by a different set of rules as the other instances of time travel in Star Trek.
Either Star Trek 2009 is right and every other instance of time travel is wrong or every other instance of time travel is right and Star Trek 2009 is wrong. If Star Trek 2009 is wrong and it deals with time travel, then TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager are completely gone. If Star Trek 2009 is right and it deals with time travel, then it destroys any sense of drama in certain time travel episodes. Picard didn't save the 21st Century from the Borg, he just created a new reality where the Borg were defeated in the 21st Century and can't go back to his original reality. The descendants from Children of Time are perfectly fine and Odo didn't sacrifice a bunch of descendants to oblivion just so that they can go back to DS9. It also destroys all meaning to the Temporal Integrity Commission.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Got it, you happily ignore what is presented in favour of headcanon. Thanks for clearing it up.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Diagonal travel works and removes the problems with the difference between Star Trek 2009 and other instances of time travel in Star Trek.
It is only our assumptions that each parallel universe happens at the same time. However, parallel universe could be created at different times. If each universe has the same initial conditions, but different times, then it would result in parallel universes existing at the same time, but in different centuries. So travelling to one parallel universe could have me encounter myself as an old man while travelling to another parallel universe could have me encounter myself as a kid without using time travel.
Going by your bucket example, normally the sand would be poured in the buckets at the same time, but having one bucket where the sand is poured in a day later would result in the later bucket to have mostly the same conditions as the original buckets, but would always be a day slower.
Horizontal travel to different parallel universes existing in different times is the illusion of time travel without having to worry about temporal paradoxes while diagonal travel is time travel without having to worry about temporal paradoxes.
Oh just stop. Every instance of time travel in Star Trek is different from every other instance of time travel in Star Trek. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", the time travel changes the protagonists' entire timeline retroactively and only Guinan is even aware there's a difference (for explanation, she's previously established to have some kind of "noodle incident" association with Q). In "Past Tense" the time travel changes the timeline for everybody but the Defiant crew, who are still there to perceive the change. In "Time and Again", breaking a predestination paradox is possible and desirable and reboots the episode, in STO it's apparently the protagonist-preferred state of the universe to have every damn thing be a predestination paradox.
If you think there's some kind of "rule" that the Kelvin Timeline is breaking, you're flatly delusional.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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The only rule that Star Trek had for time travel is changing the past changes the present. Spock and Kirk have to go to the 1930s to stop McCoy from saving a woman so their Federation still exists in The City on the Edge of Forever. The Enterprise-C had to go back to its present to save the Klingons from a Romulan attack in Yesterday's Enterprise. The Bell Riots had to happen in Past Tense or the Federation would not exist. First Contact required the Enterprise-E crew to go back in time to stop the Borg in the 21st Century or Earth is assimilated. The entire Agents of Yesterday cross-faction episodes is all about changing the past changes the present.
If a new reality is created every time a temporal event happens, then there was no point for Spock and Kirk to prevent McCoy from saving that woman, the Enterprise-C to go back in time to save a bunch of Klingons from Romulans, Sisko to impersonate Gabriel Bell, or the Enterprise-E to go back in time to save the 21st Century from a Borg invasion. Their original reality is perfectly fine and they just needed to get used to living in a new reality instead of creating a completely new reality that is similar to their original reality.
So, maybe a new reality isn't created every time a temporal event happens. Why this time and not other times? Ask Q.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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And why is this time any different from every other instance? There is no special circumstances why Star Trek 2009 is different from any other instance of time travel. If a new reality was created for Star Trek 2009, then a new reality had to be created for The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact, Children of Time, and Past Tense.
So either a new reality was created in Star Trek 2009, what we know about time travel in Star Trek is completely wrong, and the other series are perfectly fine, Star Trek 2009 erased the other series, or Star Trek 2009 happened in a parallel universe and the other series are perfectly fine.
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There was no explanation for how it was any different. The only explanation is from this one scene.
SPOCK: The engineering comprehension necessary to artificially create a black hole may suggest an answer. Such technology could theoretically be manipulated to create a tunnel through space-time.
MCCOY: Dammit man, I'm a doctor, not a physicist. Are you actually suggesting they're from the future?!
SPOCK: If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
...
SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.
Spock doesn't know if Nero came from the 24th Century or another universe that looks like the 24th Century. Nero is someone that destroyed Spock's home planet, has incredibly advanced technology, and needs to be stopped. So contemplating whether Nero came from the future or a parallel universe is a waste of resources until after Nero is defeated. If Spock wanted to figure out if Nero and Spock came from the future or a parallel universe, then he could just scan old Spock's quantum signature after the movie is over.
Any time travel or dimensional travel alters the flow of history since it is an external force. Creating a tunnel through space-time means that it can connect any two points in any dimension and any time together. We will likely never know if dimensional travel, time travel, or both was used, but alternate reality is the perfect description for the Kelvin Timeline.
But we know what happened. Then Spock explains it again, for the viewer. It's exposition. He describes a new timeline, Uhura says the term "alternate reality" which Spock agrees on. So the two are interchangeable in this case.
Whatever the outcome, all your theorizing how it works and why this is different is irrelevant, it is different because. As far as CBS/Paramount are concerned, this is a new timeline starting with the destruction of the Kelvin - not a parallel universe with it's own (similar, slightly different) history. The official line is - hence the name - Kelvin timeline as described by Spock. Technically he could have told Uhura was wrong, but since it stands it means there is no difference in the two terms. Maybe "alternate reality" and "alternate universe" are also different things.
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
> I also agree the KT is a separate timeline/reality/etc. NOT because characters on screen were guessing about what happened for 30 seconds, but because the companies that actually own this stuff in real life have said that. Characters on screen have guessed and been wrong about plenty of things over the years, so that kind of dialogue in itself proves nothing. The most you can say based on that convo is that that handful of characters BELIEVE their theory.
This is not how screenwriting works, though. The characters on-screen do not guess, lie or theorize about their situation unless this is clearly stated through stylistic means. Exposition dialogue is for the audience and establishes facts, which is what happened there. Still, same result.
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