Thinking here, but (with the Discovery timeline) Spock, who is the first Vulcan in Starfleet, actually isn't. Hasn't a Vulcan Admiral been shown several times in the earlier episodes?
Thinking here, but (with the Discovery timeline) Spock, who is the first Vulcan in Starfleet, actually isn't. Hasn't a Vulcan Admiral been shown several times in the earlier episodes?
Spock was never the first Vulcan in Starfleet. That's always been fanon that came from nowhere.
Well that's interesting as it seems to be a common misconception.
Thinking here, but (with the Discovery timeline) Spock, who is the first Vulcan in Starfleet, actually isn't. Hasn't a Vulcan Admiral been shown several times in the earlier episodes?
Spock was never the first Vulcan in Starfleet. That's always been fanon that came from nowhere.
TOS itself may well have disproven this, by having the USS Intrepid manned by an all-Vulcan crew.
Not to dispute your claim, but are you not mistaking this for the USS T'Kumbra (DS9?)
Edit: Never mind, apparently (via research) both ships had an all-Vulcan crew. Them green blooded pointy eared racists!
Part of me still thinks the Klinks look fine, if you just add hair.
No.
The first time we see a Klingon... he gets murdered with his own sword. L'rell is the only Klingon who gets any kind of screen time, and I have no idea what she is hoping to accomplish. From what TRIBBLE has established, Klingons just want to murder people for the sake of murder. They spend years doing "terror raids" then need some excuse to do the same thing on a larger scale.
Changing the appearance of the Klingons will not make them a serious enemy. The only reason they are winning is technobable. Then they stop, because technobable. Whatever name you give these aliens, they will never be a credible threat nor can the audience take them seriously because they are never developed (this is why I dislike the Breen).
To be fair, the Federation is poorly developed in TRIBBLE. The Terran Empire had more development than the Federation. Many people dislike the finale because the stakes were never established. The Klingons threaten Earth because we live here, thus we have an investment. The writers are scattered at best, lazy at worst.
See a theme here? Call these aliens "Klingons" and you don't have to develop them, the fans will do it for you. Threaten Earth and you don't have to establish the Federation or the "stakes", the fans will do it for you.
From what TRIBBLE has established, Klingons just want to murder people for the sake of murder. They spend years doing "terror raids" then need some excuse to do the same thing on a larger scale.
It'd be nice if you people learnt how to watch the show you keep outright lying about.
T'Kuvma, Voq, and L'Rell were murdering people to reunify their race. Kol was doing it because he now had cloaking tech and could use this advantage over the Federation. Both factions held a shared belief that the Federation's expansion was threatening their ability to 'Remain Klingon'.
For pity's sake, it's all over the bloody pilot episodes. You wouldn't even need to watch further than them to discern the Klingon's motives for murdering.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Indeed. Mind you, it might not be a very good reason, but it is a reason. Hardly any Trek villian had actually reasonable motives save personal revenge but I at least have to chime in saying DSCs war motives feel especially flimsy.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It makes you wonder though; are the Klingons ... right? Not necessarily in murdering everyone, but the ideals of remaining Klingon? The Federation is, after all, a unification movement intent on unifying the entire galaxy (eventually). It's probably a bad comparison, but imagine America or Russia attempting to unify the world under one (their) banner; it would result in retaliation, heck, to some degree (middle east) it has. Not that I'm trying to turn this political, but from the Klingon perspective, they're under threat and from their point of view, the only way to defeat that threat is with a pre-emptive strike.
Little do these Klingons know that by the 26th Century, the Klingon Empire is no more, and the Klingons have joined the Federation in an official capacity.
Does anyone else also wish that the 'Klingon Empire' wasn't just occupied by Klingons? I mean, we know that they've settlements on Qo'nos that is home to several Humans and/or Orion, and we know (from Star Trek Online) that the Lethean, Ferasan, Nausicaan and Gorn have joined the Imperial ranks, but from a canon perspective, the Klingons are just Klingon, in the same way the Cardassian Union is just Cardassian, and the Romulan Star Empire is just Romulan (with the occasional Reman slave thrown in for ground assaults).
Then there's the Federation. I know the Federation was built on Roddenberry's vision of peace and unification, but you'd think there'd be ample species out there that would form coalitions, alliances and/or their own unifications based upon different ideals. The closest we ever came was the Dominion (I know there were originally larger plans for them, and that it was actually going to be a Gamma Quadrant reflection) but that didn't come to pass. There was also the Son'a, but they raided and incorporated other species rather than joined with them (Tarlac & Ellora?) I suppose the only other unity we have ever seen is the Borg, but that's not exactly by choice. There's also the Nyberrite Alliance (referenced once in DS9 by Worf).
In a universe such as Trek, I'd always envisioned multiple alliances, and if Trek ever got a complete overhaul and reboot, I would very much like to see something of this magnitude.
> @flash525 said: > It makes you wonder though; are the Klingons ... right? Not necessarily in murdering everyone, but the ideals of remaining Klingon? The Federation is, after all, a unification movement intent on unifying the entire galaxy (eventually). It's probably a bad comparison, but imagine America or Russia attempting to unify the world under one (their) banner; it would result in retaliation, heck, to some degree (middle east) it has. Not that I'm trying to turn this political, but from the Klingon perspective, they're under threat and from their point of view, the only way to defeat that threat is with a pre-emptive strike. > > Little do these Klingons know that by the 26th Century, the Klingon Empire is no more, and the Klingons have joined the Federation in an official capacity.
They lack the whole perspective we have out-of-universe. In-universe the Klingorks fall (readily?) victim to abstract fearmongering. "Remain Klingon" is (literally) "America First" - empty phrases that create a feeling of diffuse threat/fear where none exist. The Federation would not take the "Klingorkiness" from them, but telling your people that's what they are going to creates a comfy feeling of victimisation and turning your own aggressive actions into ones of defense.
Personally I think nationalism can never be a good/reasonable choice by principle.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
They lack the whole perspective we have out-of-universe. In-universe the Klingorks fall (readily?) victim to abstract fearmongering. "Remain Klingon" is (literally) "America First" - empty phrases that create a feeling of diffuse threat/fear where none exist. The Federation would not take the "Klingorkiness" from them, but telling your people that's what they are going to creates a comfy feeling of victimisation and turning your own aggressive actions into ones of defense.
Wouldn't they?
The Federation expand, as does their word and their message of peace. It's understandable that the message isn't going to be agreed upon by all though, however the moment you sign up as a member of Starfleet/the Federation, all your principles, your ethics, everything about an alien and their life before is obsolete; no longer can a Klingon (in Starfleet) perform a ritual combat to the death, because it goes against Starfleet law. The Federation unwillingly imposes it's will on others; I doubt they'd always mean too, but they do it.
Should a culture that thrives on slavery be stopped because it's deemed immoral to Starfleet? What would Starfleet have done if they'd expanded to Bajor and Bajor hadn't requested assistance? Would they have turned a blind eye to an ongoing Cardassian occupation, or would they have stepped in, and if they'd of stepped in, would they have been right to do so - and if so, why? Based on Starfleet/Human perspective wouldn't (in the galactic sense) make it right.
You are incorrect, Federation members retain their culture seemingly unimpaired. Vulcans still perform their mortal (k)combat horny rituals for instance. Also, depending on the episode's author, the Federation would have (not of ) totally watched Bajor fall. Prime directive and all.
Sorry for being so brief, on break and on a phone xD
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You are incorrect, Federation members retain their culture seemingly unimpaired. Vulcans still perform their mortal (k)combat horny rituals for instance. Also, depending on the episode's author, the Federation would have (not of ) totally watched Bajor fall. Prime directive and all.
Sorry for being so brief, on break and on a phone xD
That's cool and all, but I seem to remember a few TNG & DS9 episodes which called into question what Worf could, and couldn't do. He couldn't, for example, kill Kurn when (by Klingon tradition) he had every right to do so.
You are incorrect, Federation members retain their culture seemingly unimpaired. Vulcans still perform their mortal (k)combat horny rituals for instance. Also, depending on the episode's author, the Federation would have (not of ) totally watched Bajor fall. Prime directive and all.
Sorry for being so brief, on break and on a phone xD
That's cool and all, but I seem to remember a few TNG & DS9 episodes which called into question what Worf could, and couldn't do. He couldn't, for example, kill Kurn when (by Klingon tradition) he had every right to do so.
Could it be that Worf is a STARFLEET officer too and that he's supposed to follow the Starfleet creeds, especially the one probably saying something like "your brother being very miserable and suicidal isn't a sufficient excuse for killing him, especially if it's because of shady politics"?
Could it be that Worf is a STARFLEET officer too and that he's supposed to follow the Starfleet creeds, especially the one probably saying something like "your brother being very miserable and suicidal isn't a sufficient excuse for killing him, especially if it's because of shady politics"?
That's what I'm saying though - Starfleet/the Federation says no. Worf wasn't just randomly killing his brother; Kurn asked for a specific ritual to which Worf felt obligated to perform. He was told no - so Starfleet/the Federation is already clamping down on what they envision to be acceptable, which reverts back to my previous point.
Could it be that Worf is a STARFLEET officer too and that he's supposed to follow the Starfleet creeds, especially the one probably saying something like "your brother being very miserable and suicidal isn't a sufficient excuse for killing him, especially if it's because of shady politics"?
That's what I'm saying though - Starfleet/the Federation says no. Worf wasn't just randomly killing his brother; Kurn asked for a specific ritual to which Worf felt obligated to perform. He was told no - so Starfleet/the Federation is already clamping down on what they envision to be acceptable, which reverts back to my previous point.
Starfleet is not the Federation, though. It is one service within the UFP which may have different guidelines for it's personnel. It was no problem for Spock to engage in ritual combat with his superior though, under the clear premise that one of them could be killed. Maybe it's a case by case basis but that still doesn't say anything about someone not being a Starfleet officer but a citizen of the UFP performing their culture's rituals. I think it was never clearly stated they couldn't do that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I really don't see whats so hard to understand
1. Find dead Federation guy from Battle of Binary Stars whose history you can most easily look up
2. Make Voq look like him, and give him a fake version of said guy's memories and personality based on what you found
3. Take Not-Voq to Klingon prison ship
4. Kidnap Lorca and take him to same prison ship
5. Have Lorca "escape" with not-Voq to build trust between the two
At this point, the contrivances are painful. This is hack level writing at it's best. L'rell spent months on a dead ship bonding with Voq. At what point did she come up with this plan? How do the Klingons know so much about the Discovery, that they can make this plan? They know who the captain is and where to go to ambush him. Why not replace HIM, like they did with Tyler?
The Klingons are angry, short-sighted, murderous thugs. It's a miracle they have starfaring technology, let alone the intellegence network to pull this off.
6. Have Not-Voq be on Discovery as an unknowing agent so he can learn about the ship
7. Have L'rell use the captured Federation diplomat to "defect"
8. Use the defection to meet up with Not-Voq an activate Voq's personality
Wow, more coincidence. What are the odds that the diplomat (who would have originally been Sarek) would take L'rell to the Discovery... which is currently doing "super secret stuff" for the war effort?
9. Take over and return with, or failing that destroy, the Discovery, which is the Federation's secret weapon
10. Come back big god damn heroes to the Klingon Empire and use the propaganda to unite the houses as T'Kuvma wanted
11. Destroy the Federation that threatens Klingon culture
The end
The Klingons switched loyalty to Kor in exchange for cloaking tech. Are you saying they will "switch sides" again to follow L'rell? When was ANY of this established? Why wouldn't the other Klingons lie to L'rell, take her fancy mushroom engine, and execute her? Nothing about these Klingons is established other than:
They prefer murder over diplomacy.
They need a reason to murder on a galatic scale.
They are deceptive.
T'Kuvma, Voq, and L'Rell were murdering people to reunify their race. Kol was doing it because he now had cloaking tech and could use this advantage over the Federation. Both factions held a shared belief that the Federation's expansion was threatening their ability to 'Remain Klingon'.
T'Kuvma establishes that most Klingons do NOT think like him, which is why he is doing what he is doing... to unite them. Because they are different. The only thing all Klingons have in common is:
The Klingons conducted "terror raids" for years.
They only stopped when the Vulcans murdered them.
The Klingons are totally happy to ignore their differences to murder people. This is the CRUX of the plot for the pilot. Klingons live to murder. They murder so much, you have to murder them FIRST to "start a line of communication".
For pity's sake, it's all over the bloody pilot episodes. You wouldn't even need to watch further than them to discern the Klingon's motives for murdering.
1. She already had the plan back when Kol ditched Voq on the ruins of the Shenzhou. In case you forgot, she tells Voq about how he will have to sacrifice everything for whatever plan she had to work.
What plan? There is no plan here. She just offers him a future if he "sacrifices everything". At no point does she ever reveal to the audience that she has a plan.
Tyler Voq is a constructed character. He is not organic; he exists to have "inner conflict" and have a "troubled relationship" with Burnham. Everything about him feels put together in a lab, in order to give the audience the "shocking reveal".
2. They don't, nor do they need too. All they need to know is that the Federation has a secret weapon aboard the ship the make a plan to get in and find out what it is and try to take it.
They must establish how they know what they know, or seems contrived. That is storytelling 101. Now, we can give them some benefit of the doubt for run-time, but they do this so often (TRIBBLE just "works out") that it becomes contrived. Once in a while is fine, but EVERYTHING about Tyler Voq is contrived.
3. Because its much harder to replace the captain, who everyone would be scrutinizing, and have the plan work, then it is to replace some guy, and have him fly under the radar are just a POW they recovered.
Your fan insert here. The show never explains what is so special about Lorca that he is the ONLY ONE who can captain the Discovery, especially since Burnham is the focal character.
But, let's give the writers the benefit of the doubt (AGAIN). Why didn't they just strip the information from Lorca's brain, like they did the REAL Tyler? When the writers use these concepts as MAJOR PLOT POINTS, the audience can most certainly ask "Eh, why are you not doing it this time?"
4. That is an idiotic reductio ad absurdum that doesn't fit with the Klingons in any Trek series.
This is an empty comment that does not address the actual plot, as presented. MAJOR PLOT POINT:
"A Diplomatic solution is NOT POSSIBLE because Klingons do not respect Diplomacy. They only respect violence, which is why the Vulcans had to shoot them first"
The Klingons do not stop to question T'Kumva. They watch his farce play out and gleefully begin murdering the Federation. When T'Kumva dies, they continue to murder the Federation. When they receive technobable, they double down on the murder. They only stop murdering when they, themselves, are threatened to be murdered (by techobable).
NOTHING ELSE IS ESTABLISHED ABOUT THE KLINGONS. They don't even have universal translators. How the hell do they have a spy network? If they only speak in murder-ese, why haven't they been wiped out? These aliens are shallow, boring and stupid. They are only able to do things because technobable (hack writing).
5. She doesn't need him to take her to Discovery intentionally. All she has to do is defect, and then say she will spill the beans on what the Klingons are doing only as long as she gets to see Ash, under the pretense that she had grown fond of him during all the torture, and **** sex they had. "I'll tell you what you want to know if you give me X!" is basic bargaining.
More fan-fic insert. None of the is established. Her GOALS are never established, which is why this is pointless speculation. Stop writing for the writers.
6. I doubt she cared about being the leader of Klingon society, all she wanted to do was bring glory to T'kuvma, and enact his vision of a untied empire.
Your guess is as good as mine... SINCE HER GOALS ARE NEVER ESTABLISHED. She tells Kor what he wants to hear; she tells T'Kumva what he wants to hear... she tells Voq what HE wants to hear... what does SHE want? I can't tell. Everything about her character is deception and "stuff just works out".
7. Any of what? The plan? Throughout the whole series.... actually pay attention to what you are watching next time.
Non-answer. There is no plan. Seriously. You can just "assume" they wanted Voq on board to do... something. He somehow became the head of security when Chief of Security Fascist got herself murdered in episode 4. Man, the lucky contrivances! It's like Tyler's whole development was done with clockwork precision.
8. Because the Klingons hate the Federation more. Same argument could be made on what a whole bunch of other Klingon houses didn't just kill Kol and take the cloaking tech for themselves.
The only reason the Klingons attacked the Federation is because of T'Kumva's schemes (not that they are unhappy with the slaughter). Most Klingons seem to be mindless followers. Not seeing the "hate". Some Klingons (like Kol and T'kumva) seem hateful, but they establish early that these Klingons are "the exception" (again, all Klingons are "different" in ideology, except murder).
9. Incorrect, as there is 50 years of Trek lore behind why the Klingons do what they do. Your backwards need to try to make these Klingons something else entirely, when they aren't, and then try to use that as an excuse to say we know nothing about them, is your problem.
You are AGAIN doing the writer's job.
This story is told by these writers. These writers MUST establish what the hell is going on, or it's all nonsense. If YOU have to "make stuff up" or go visit Memory Alpha in order to fill in the blanks, it's poor story telling.
The poor storytelling is why these Klingons are terrible antagonists and why no amount of hair will fix that.
T'Kuvma establishes that most Klingons do NOT think like him, which is why he is doing what he is doing... to unite them. Because they are different. The only thing all Klingons have in common is:
Hmm, so now it's changed to 'please ignore the specific Klingons with specific motives because it dosn't help me sound like a bit of a nob'. So development for you there.
The Klingons conducted "terror raids" for years.
They only stopped when the Vulcans murdered them.
The Klingons are totally happy to ignore their differences to murder people. This is the CRUX of the plot for the pilot. Klingons live to murder. They murder so much, you have to murder them FIRST to "start a line of communication".
So you're just ignoring motivation then. Seems like you don't really care for answers. Have your rant then pet.
Edit: never mind, I've seen some of your other replies. You seem to think drawing conclusions is synonymous with what you call 'fan-fiction'. In which case you probably need to go find a different sort of media to enjoy. Perhaps a play? One with a narrator preferably, so you can have your hand held through the whole performance and not have to tax the old rusty puzzling tubes with trying to wonder what is going on other than dialogue.
Let the grown ups watch their telly. There's probably some books you can get somebody to read that'll be more up your street. Cardboard ones where the main character is a dog named Spot.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
L'rell is the only Klingon who gets any kind of screen time, and I have no idea what she is hoping to accomplish.
I really don't see whats so hard to understand
1. Find dead Federation guy from Battle of Binary Stars whose history you can most easily look up
2. Make Voq look like him, and give him a fake version of said guy's memories and personality based on what you found
3. Take Not-Voq to Klingon prison ship
4. Kidnap Lorca and take him to same prison ship
5. Have Lorca "escape" with not-Voq to build trust between the two
6. Have Not-Voq be on Discovery as an unknowing agent so he can learn about the ship
7. Have L'rell use the captured Federation diplomat to "defect"
8. Use the defection to meet up with Not-Voq an activate Voq's personality
9. Take over and return with, or failing that destroy, the Discovery, which is the Federation's secret weapon
10. Come back big god damn heroes to the Klingon Empire and use the propaganda to unite the houses as T'Kuvma wanted
11. Destroy the Federation that threatens Klingon culture
The end
now run this plan past a five year old of average intelligence as is recommended by the Evil Overlord List. And count the possible points of failure. Overcomplicated xanatos stacks are usually a sign that the writer is winging it and handwaving the rule of natural consequences to cover the corner he or she painted themselves into with plentiful Deus Ex Machinae.
Overcomplicated plans and strategies tend to fail horribly in well-written fiction and real life, and only succeed in four color comics and comic operas.
The problem with that idea is that having a 5-year old as an advisor is only workable in cartoons. The problem is that they don't know what going on and tend to use overly simplistic logic. How are you going to get advice on how to use a death ray from someone who doesn't even know what it is?
L'rell is the only Klingon who gets any kind of screen time, and I have no idea what she is hoping to accomplish.
I really don't see whats so hard to understand
1. Find dead Federation guy from Battle of Binary Stars whose history you can most easily look up
2. Make Voq look like him, and give him a fake version of said guy's memories and personality based on what you found
3. Take Not-Voq to Klingon prison ship
4. Kidnap Lorca and take him to same prison ship
5. Have Lorca "escape" with not-Voq to build trust between the two
6. Have Not-Voq be on Discovery as an unknowing agent so he can learn about the ship
7. Have L'rell use the captured Federation diplomat to "defect"
8. Use the defection to meet up with Not-Voq an activate Voq's personality
9. Take over and return with, or failing that destroy, the Discovery, which is the Federation's secret weapon
10. Come back big god damn heroes to the Klingon Empire and use the propaganda to unite the houses as T'Kuvma wanted
11. Destroy the Federation that threatens Klingon culture
The end
now run this plan past a five year old of average intelligence as is recommended by the Evil Overlord List. And count the possible points of failure. Overcomplicated xanatos stacks are usually a sign that the writer is winging it and handwaving the rule of natural consequences to cover the corner he or she painted themselves into with plentiful Deus Ex Machinae.
Overcomplicated plans and strategies tend to fail horribly in well-written fiction and real life, and only succeed in four color comics and comic operas.
The problem with that idea is that having a 5-year old as an advisor is only workable in cartoons. The problem is that they don't know what going on and tend to use overly simplistic logic. How are you going to get advice on how to use a death ray from someone who doesn't even know what it is?
The example may have been a bit of hyperbole, but the concept is sound; if a person with a simple mind can (after having it explained) find holes in your plan, it's probably a bad plan.
Yeah, but the caveat is that said simpleton needs to actually understand the plan and not just think they do. Good luck with that.
somtaawkhar, artan42 & redvenge - I don't care to backseat moderate, but if you guys don't cool it off, you're going to find yourself with a warning. It's not worth it! Just agree to disagree, or at least try to keep it civil. Easier said than done, I'm sure, but try.
Could it be that Worf is a STARFLEET officer too and that he's supposed to follow the Starfleet creeds, especially the one probably saying something like "your brother being very miserable and suicidal isn't a sufficient excuse for killing him, especially if it's because of shady politics"?
That's what I'm saying though - Starfleet/the Federation says no. Worf wasn't just randomly killing his brother; Kurn asked for a specific ritual to which Worf felt obligated to perform. He was told no - so Starfleet/the Federation is already clamping down on what they envision to be acceptable, which reverts back to my previous point.
Starfleet is not the Federation, though. It is one service within the UFP which may have different guidelines for it's personnel. It was no problem for Spock to engage in ritual combat with his superior though, under the clear premise that one of them could be killed. Maybe it's a case by case basis but that still doesn't say anything about someone not being a Starfleet officer but a citizen of the UFP performing their culture's rituals. I think it was never clearly stated they couldn't do that.
I wonder whether it's ore simplified than that then, and what is, and what isn't allowed under the Starfleet/UFP banner is dependant on the film/episode plot.
Comments
Well that's interesting as it seems to be a common misconception.
Edit: Never mind, apparently (via research) both ships had an all-Vulcan crew. Them green blooded pointy eared racists!
The first time we see a Klingon... he gets murdered with his own sword. L'rell is the only Klingon who gets any kind of screen time, and I have no idea what she is hoping to accomplish. From what TRIBBLE has established, Klingons just want to murder people for the sake of murder. They spend years doing "terror raids" then need some excuse to do the same thing on a larger scale.
Changing the appearance of the Klingons will not make them a serious enemy. The only reason they are winning is technobable. Then they stop, because technobable. Whatever name you give these aliens, they will never be a credible threat nor can the audience take them seriously because they are never developed (this is why I dislike the Breen).
To be fair, the Federation is poorly developed in TRIBBLE. The Terran Empire had more development than the Federation. Many people dislike the finale because the stakes were never established. The Klingons threaten Earth because we live here, thus we have an investment. The writers are scattered at best, lazy at worst.
See a theme here? Call these aliens "Klingons" and you don't have to develop them, the fans will do it for you. Threaten Earth and you don't have to establish the Federation or the "stakes", the fans will do it for you.
It'd be nice if you people learnt how to watch the show you keep outright lying about.
T'Kuvma, Voq, and L'Rell were murdering people to reunify their race. Kol was doing it because he now had cloaking tech and could use this advantage over the Federation. Both factions held a shared belief that the Federation's expansion was threatening their ability to 'Remain Klingon'.
For pity's sake, it's all over the bloody pilot episodes. You wouldn't even need to watch further than them to discern the Klingon's motives for murdering.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Little do these Klingons know that by the 26th Century, the Klingon Empire is no more, and the Klingons have joined the Federation in an official capacity.
Then there's the Federation. I know the Federation was built on Roddenberry's vision of peace and unification, but you'd think there'd be ample species out there that would form coalitions, alliances and/or their own unifications based upon different ideals. The closest we ever came was the Dominion (I know there were originally larger plans for them, and that it was actually going to be a Gamma Quadrant reflection) but that didn't come to pass. There was also the Son'a, but they raided and incorporated other species rather than joined with them (Tarlac & Ellora?) I suppose the only other unity we have ever seen is the Borg, but that's not exactly by choice. There's also the Nyberrite Alliance (referenced once in DS9 by Worf).
In a universe such as Trek, I'd always envisioned multiple alliances, and if Trek ever got a complete overhaul and reboot, I would very much like to see something of this magnitude.
> It makes you wonder though; are the Klingons ... right? Not necessarily in murdering everyone, but the ideals of remaining Klingon? The Federation is, after all, a unification movement intent on unifying the entire galaxy (eventually). It's probably a bad comparison, but imagine America or Russia attempting to unify the world under one (their) banner; it would result in retaliation, heck, to some degree (middle east) it has. Not that I'm trying to turn this political, but from the Klingon perspective, they're under threat and from their point of view, the only way to defeat that threat is with a pre-emptive strike.
>
> Little do these Klingons know that by the 26th Century, the Klingon Empire is no more, and the Klingons have joined the Federation in an official capacity.
They lack the whole perspective we have out-of-universe. In-universe the Klingorks fall (readily?) victim to abstract fearmongering. "Remain Klingon" is (literally) "America First" - empty phrases that create a feeling of diffuse threat/fear where none exist. The Federation would not take the "Klingorkiness" from them, but telling your people that's what they are going to creates a comfy feeling of victimisation and turning your own aggressive actions into ones of defense.
Personally I think nationalism can never be a good/reasonable choice by principle.
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The Federation expand, as does their word and their message of peace. It's understandable that the message isn't going to be agreed upon by all though, however the moment you sign up as a member of Starfleet/the Federation, all your principles, your ethics, everything about an alien and their life before is obsolete; no longer can a Klingon (in Starfleet) perform a ritual combat to the death, because it goes against Starfleet law. The Federation unwillingly imposes it's will on others; I doubt they'd always mean too, but they do it.
Should a culture that thrives on slavery be stopped because it's deemed immoral to Starfleet? What would Starfleet have done if they'd expanded to Bajor and Bajor hadn't requested assistance? Would they have turned a blind eye to an ongoing Cardassian occupation, or would they have stepped in, and if they'd of stepped in, would they have been right to do so - and if so, why? Based on Starfleet/Human perspective wouldn't (in the galactic sense) make it right.
I hope I'm making some sort of sense here..
Sorry for being so brief, on break and on a phone xD
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Starfleet is not the Federation, though. It is one service within the UFP which may have different guidelines for it's personnel. It was no problem for Spock to engage in ritual combat with his superior though, under the clear premise that one of them could be killed. Maybe it's a case by case basis but that still doesn't say anything about someone not being a Starfleet officer but a citizen of the UFP performing their culture's rituals. I think it was never clearly stated they couldn't do that.
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The Klingons are angry, short-sighted, murderous thugs. It's a miracle they have starfaring technology, let alone the intellegence network to pull this off. Wow, more coincidence. What are the odds that the diplomat (who would have originally been Sarek) would take L'rell to the Discovery... which is currently doing "super secret stuff" for the war effort? The Klingons switched loyalty to Kor in exchange for cloaking tech. Are you saying they will "switch sides" again to follow L'rell? When was ANY of this established? Why wouldn't the other Klingons lie to L'rell, take her fancy mushroom engine, and execute her? Nothing about these Klingons is established other than:
They prefer murder over diplomacy.
They need a reason to murder on a galatic scale.
They are deceptive.
The Klingons conducted "terror raids" for years.
They only stopped when the Vulcans murdered them.
The Klingons are totally happy to ignore their differences to murder people. This is the CRUX of the plot for the pilot. Klingons live to murder. They murder so much, you have to murder them FIRST to "start a line of communication".
Watch the show before you comment. The irony here.
Tyler Voq is a constructed character. He is not organic; he exists to have "inner conflict" and have a "troubled relationship" with Burnham. Everything about him feels put together in a lab, in order to give the audience the "shocking reveal". They must establish how they know what they know, or seems contrived. That is storytelling 101. Now, we can give them some benefit of the doubt for run-time, but they do this so often (TRIBBLE just "works out") that it becomes contrived. Once in a while is fine, but EVERYTHING about Tyler Voq is contrived. Your fan insert here. The show never explains what is so special about Lorca that he is the ONLY ONE who can captain the Discovery, especially since Burnham is the focal character.
But, let's give the writers the benefit of the doubt (AGAIN). Why didn't they just strip the information from Lorca's brain, like they did the REAL Tyler? When the writers use these concepts as MAJOR PLOT POINTS, the audience can most certainly ask "Eh, why are you not doing it this time?" This is an empty comment that does not address the actual plot, as presented. MAJOR PLOT POINT:
"A Diplomatic solution is NOT POSSIBLE because Klingons do not respect Diplomacy. They only respect violence, which is why the Vulcans had to shoot them first"
The Klingons do not stop to question T'Kumva. They watch his farce play out and gleefully begin murdering the Federation. When T'Kumva dies, they continue to murder the Federation. When they receive technobable, they double down on the murder. They only stop murdering when they, themselves, are threatened to be murdered (by techobable).
NOTHING ELSE IS ESTABLISHED ABOUT THE KLINGONS. They don't even have universal translators. How the hell do they have a spy network? If they only speak in murder-ese, why haven't they been wiped out? These aliens are shallow, boring and stupid. They are only able to do things because technobable (hack writing). More fan-fic insert. None of the is established. Her GOALS are never established, which is why this is pointless speculation. Stop writing for the writers. Your guess is as good as mine... SINCE HER GOALS ARE NEVER ESTABLISHED. She tells Kor what he wants to hear; she tells T'Kumva what he wants to hear... she tells Voq what HE wants to hear... what does SHE want? I can't tell. Everything about her character is deception and "stuff just works out". Non-answer. There is no plan. Seriously. You can just "assume" they wanted Voq on board to do... something. He somehow became the head of security when Chief of Security Fascist got herself murdered in episode 4. Man, the lucky contrivances! It's like Tyler's whole development was done with clockwork precision. The only reason the Klingons attacked the Federation is because of T'Kumva's schemes (not that they are unhappy with the slaughter). Most Klingons seem to be mindless followers. Not seeing the "hate". Some Klingons (like Kol and T'kumva) seem hateful, but they establish early that these Klingons are "the exception" (again, all Klingons are "different" in ideology, except murder). You are AGAIN doing the writer's job.
This story is told by these writers. These writers MUST establish what the hell is going on, or it's all nonsense. If YOU have to "make stuff up" or go visit Memory Alpha in order to fill in the blanks, it's poor story telling.
The poor storytelling is why these Klingons are terrible antagonists and why no amount of hair will fix that.
Hahahhahahahaha. Pillock.
Hahahhahahahaha. Pillock.
Hmm, so now it's changed to 'please ignore the specific Klingons with specific motives because it dosn't help me sound like a bit of a nob'. So development for you there.
So you're just ignoring motivation then. Seems like you don't really care for answers. Have your rant then pet.
Hahahhahahahaha. Pillock.
Hahahhahahahaha. Pillock.
Want to try again?
Edit: never mind, I've seen some of your other replies. You seem to think drawing conclusions is synonymous with what you call 'fan-fiction'. In which case you probably need to go find a different sort of media to enjoy. Perhaps a play? One with a narrator preferably, so you can have your hand held through the whole performance and not have to tax the old rusty puzzling tubes with trying to wonder what is going on other than dialogue.
Let the grown ups watch their telly. There's probably some books you can get somebody to read that'll be more up your street. Cardboard ones where the main character is a dog named Spot.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
I wonder whether it's ore simplified than that then, and what is, and what isn't allowed under the Starfleet/UFP banner is dependant on the film/episode plot.