Fan Theory: The History Of The Federation Is The History Of Sarek's Family

brian334

Because of Sarek's meddling, Archer goes into deep space and some stuff happens, Sarek plays the "poor little Vulcan" card and gets some historic enemies to form the Federation, which Sarek continues to guide with his continued "diplomacy" to create a universe safe for pointy-eared folk everywhere.

And in his declining years who should step forth as the Meddler-in-chief but Spock, Son Of Sarek, on whose own inniative arranges peace with Klingons and sets forth a new direction in Federation history culminating in the destruction of the only foe capable of restraining the growth of the federation and setting up the eventual absorption of its remains into the Federation, under Vulcan control, of course.

And of course there will be a check-in with Vulcan central command in Discovery. In fact, I'm betting Sarek put her on the path to Starfleet Headquarters just so he could have a spy and a sympathetic ear inside Starfleet! It would be logical.

Should any series take on the future, beyond even the STO timelines, it will be revealed that a grandchild of Sarek is secretly manipulating things from behind the sceens. Because as much as the Star Wars Trilogy^3 is about how two droids saw the events of an historical period, Star Trek is about Sarek's Family and their quest to control everything and everyone!

mustrumridcully0

Does Sarek appear in ENT? I think T'Pau does, but the Vulcan ambassador there is not Sarek. Of course, they could be related.

rattler2

No... the Vulcan Ambassador was Soval... And Archer called him out in the pilot for raising his voice.

brian334

rattler2 wrote: »

No... the Vulcan Ambassador was Soval... And Archer called him out in the pilot for raising his voice.

Sarek in Ent is Sovall's apprentice.

rattler2

Guess I missed that...

ryan218

rattler2 wrote: »

Guess I missed that...

That's because it's impossible. Sarek died in 2368 aged 203. That means he wouldn't have even been born until 4 years after Enterprise was decommissioned.

rattler2

Hm... this is getting deep... although we don't honestly know when Enterprise was decommissioned I think. We know when the Federation was founded, but the NX-01 could have been in service after that before being retired.

ryan218

rattler2 wrote: »

Hm... this is getting deep... although we don't honestly know when Enterprise was decommissioned I think. We know when the Federation was founded, but the NX-01 could have been in service after that before being retired.

It was stated in the episode she was being retired after the founding ceremony.

Point is, Sarek couldn't have 'meddled' in any way with ST: ENT.

Also, didn't Sarek oppose Spock making peace with the Klingons? And his venture to Romulus for reunification for that matter?

rattler2

ryan218 wrote: »

Also, didn't Sarek oppose Spock making peace with the Klingons? And his venture to Romulus for reunification for that matter?

I don't know if Sarek opposed peace with the Klingons, but I know elements within Starfleet itself did. Most likely Section 31.

ryan218

rattler2 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

Also, didn't Sarek oppose Spock making peace with the Klingons? And his venture to Romulus for reunification for that matter?

I don't know if Sarek opposed peace with the Klingons, but I know elements within Starfleet itself did. Most likely Section 31.

It's more that Sarek didn't think Spock could actually succeed, and was falling to his human idealism. I think he mentions it during his discussion with Picard in 'Reunification, Part One'.

k20vtec

Sarekminati??!?!

rattler2

k20vtec wrote: »

Sarekminati??!?!

artan42

rattler2 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

Also, didn't Sarek oppose Spock making peace with the Klingons? And his venture to Romulus for reunification for that matter?

I don't know if Sarek opposed peace with the Klingons, but I know elements within Starfleet itself did. Most likely Section 31.

I doubt it. Section 31 is genocidally dedicated to protecting the Federation. Courting a war with the Klingons would run counter to that.

starswordc

> @artan42 said:
> rattler2 wrote: »
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> ryan218 wrote: »
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> Also, didn't Sarek oppose Spock making peace with the Klingons? And his venture to Romulus for reunification for that matter?
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> I don't know if Sarek opposed peace with the Klingons, but I know elements within Starfleet itself did. Most likely Section 31.
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> I doubt it. Section 31 is genocidally dedicated to protecting the Federation. Courting a war with the Klingons would run counter to that.

Unless they believed such a war would be winnable (within reason). As was indicated by some figures in the movie, factoring in the Klingons' weakness due to Praxis and the Federation's detente with the Klingons' traditional rival the Romulans at the time, it may well have been.

And to be clear, Section 31 is dedicated to protecting the Federation as a line on a map, not as an idea, value system, or system of government.

antonine3258

rattler2 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

Also, didn't Sarek oppose Spock making peace with the Klingons? And his venture to Romulus for reunification for that matter?

I don't know if Sarek opposed peace with the Klingons, but I know elements within Starfleet itself did. Most likely Section 31.

I think the line was 'on behalf of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialog' from Spock for the briefing - Sarek farmed it out, possibly as for the same reason Kirk was volunteered to escort the Chancellor, given Spock's own success in several confrontations with Klingon plots.

brian334

Well, I missed the dates. Sarek couldn't have been on Earth at that time.

I've read other speculations that T'Pol could be Spock's grandmother, but the timeline would make her the mother of Sarek within four years of Ent.

I notice we don't hear much from her father's side of the family. T'Pol might even be a namesake of T'Pau, making her some kind of cousin and family matriarch, but it's unlikely to be possible that there's a direct relation to Spock.

artan42

starswordc wrote: »

Unless they believed such a war would be winnable (within reason). As was indicated by some figures in the movie, factoring in the Klingons' weakness due to Praxis and the Federation's detente with the Klingons' traditional rival the Romulans at the time, it may well have been.

That was a bit of a silly plot in the film really. Praxis is the energy producing facility for Kronos, not the Empire. There's no reason the rest of the Empire would be affected in the slightest. All they have to do is move the High Council off-world and all's fine.

starswordc wrote: »

And to be clear, Section 31 is dedicated to protecting the Federation as a line on a map, not as an idea, value system, or system of government.

Same thing. You can't have a civilisation without an area in which to be civilised.​​

Unknown

This content has been removed.

brian334

I don't think Section 31 ties into it. But if so, it would explain a few things, like how humans manage to keep an open secret like S31 a secret. Humans are notoriously bad at keeping secrets.

jonsills

Flaw in the theory, based in plain text: I rewatched "Journey to Babel" just the other day. Sarek was recently retired from service to Vulcan, with the Babel Conference intended to be his last mission for the government (due to his heart condition). McCoy noted the oddity in Sarek retiring at such a young age for a Vulcan - he was only 102 Earth years old.

For Sarek to have been Soval's apprentice, he'd have had to have been at least in his thirties during "Broken Bow". That would require the series Enterprise to have been set no more than seventy years prior to TOS. Now, we do know that the war with the Romulans happened about a hundred years prior to TOS; while establishment of this would bring the Earth-Romulan War more into line with the idea that all this happened before warp drive and was fought with nuclear weapons, it's necessary to contradict the chronology presented in ENT itself - where there was still no contact with Romulans by the end of the conflict with the Xindi. Also, Earth as seen in First Contact was hardly in any shape to field a fleet of sublight (or at least not warp drive) combat ships, much less equipped with large numbers of nuclear warheads - they'd have used them on each other first.

starswordc

textex clearing

starswordc

patrickngo wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

Unless they believed such a war would be winnable (within reason). As was indicated by some figures in the movie, factoring in the Klingons' weakness due to Praxis and the Federation's detente with the Klingons' traditional rival the Romulans at the time, it may well have been.

That was a bit of a silly plot in the film really. Praxis is the energy producing facility for Kronos, not the Empire. There's no reason the rest of the Empire would be affected in the slightest. All they have to do is move the High Council off-world and all's fine.

starswordc wrote: »

And to be clear, Section 31 is dedicated to protecting the Federation as a line on a map, not as an idea, value system, or system of government.

Same thing. You can't have a civilisation without an area in which to be civilised.​​

I think it depends on how centralized two things were in the Empire:

Government

Population.

also how critical industries on praxis were TO the Empire, and in particular, the Imperial Fleet.

on the Government angle: well, given the neo feudal stylings in TNG this doesn't seem that likely, though administering an empire could well require a great deal of unseen bureaucracy, and that kind of administrative damage can certainly cripple a nation or empire (imagine what might've happened if someone set off a nuke in southern england in 1880 or so, how that indirectly could cripple the British empire in the age of steam, telegraphs, etc. etc.)

On the population angle....we're talking blowing up a MOON-let's see, there's going to be ecological impacts like tidal shifts, earthquakes (Qo'noS quakes?) tectonic shifts, falling debris entering t he atmosphere at relativistic velocity, kinetic impactor strikes, etc. etc., probably a death toll well into the billions, if Qo'noS has a population roughly equivalent to that of Earth circa 1986 or so. this will have significant impacts on industrial production, personnel availability, food supplies...and chains of command in the military, civil service, the economy...

It would be, proportionally, about like nuking California-not the desert parts, but the coastal areas.

Major political, military and industrial chaos, vast numbers of dead civilians, most of whom never left the planet.

and that is merely the LONG term impacts. In the short term, there's a term from the cold war that could well apply in the KDF of the time-"Spoilsport".

a 'Spoilsport' protocol is a second-strike launch in the event that the central government is taken out/damaged to the point of non-functional, it's an aspect of "Mutually Assured Destruction" as a doctrine. in the case of an event like the Praxis detonation, spoilsport protocols could be a significant risk...

Aside from the whole Endor Holocaust issue patrick mentions, there's a plausible way for Praxis to have been the source of energy for the whole Empire. I believe they were overmining dilithium when the disaster occurred, which leads to the simple conclusion that the Empire's energy economy was insufficiently diversified. For example, because one particular Great House granted itself an Imperial Monopoly on dilithium mining or some such when they held the Chancellorship and was strong enough to defend it after that was no longer the case.

brian334

jonsills wrote: »

Flaw in the theory, based in plain text: I rewatched "Journey to Babel" just the other day. Sarek was recently retired from service to Vulcan, with the Babel Conference intended to be his last mission for the government (due to his heart condition). McCoy noted the oddity in Sarek retiring at such a young age for a Vulcan - he was only 102 Earth years old.

For Sarek to have been Soval's apprentice, he'd have had to have been at least in his thirties during "Broken Bow". That would require the series Enterprise to have been set no more than seventy years prior to TOS. Now, we do know that the war with the Romulans happened about a hundred years prior to TOS; while establishment of this would bring the Earth-Romulan War more into line with the idea that all this happened before warp drive and was fought with nuclear weapons, it's necessary to contradict the chronology presented in ENT itself - where there was still no contact with Romulans by the end of the conflict with the Xindi. Also, Earth as seen in First Contact was hardly in any shape to field a fleet of sublight (or at least not warp drive) combat ships, much less equipped with large numbers of nuclear warheads - they'd have used them on each other first.

jonsills wrote: »

Flaw in the theory, based in plain text: I rewatched "Journey to Babel" just the other day. Sarek was recently retired from service to Vulcan, with the Babel Conference intended to be his last mission for the government (due to his heart condition). McCoy noted the oddity in Sarek retiring at such a young age for a Vulcan - he was only 102 Earth years old.

For Sarek to have been Soval's apprentice, he'd have had to have been at least in his thirties during "Broken Bow". That would require the series Enterprise to have been set no more than seventy years prior to TOS. Now, we do know that the war with the Romulans happened about a hundred years prior to TOS; while establishment of this would bring the Earth-Romulan War more into line with the idea that all this happened before warp drive and was fought with nuclear weapons, it's necessary to contradict the chronology presented in ENT itself - where there was still no contact with Romulans by the end of the conflict with the Xindi. Also, Earth as seen in First Contact was hardly in any shape to field a fleet of sublight (or at least not warp drive) combat ships, much less equipped with large numbers of nuclear warheads - they'd have used them on each other first.

Sarek's death in TNG would be the most recent canon, but Stardate 3842.3, by TNG retcon of dates, would put the Babel conference about 2267, making Sarek 102 at that point, so they are both the same. And both have Sarek born four years after NX 01 is decommissioned.

Revised theory: Berman was quoted as saying T'Pol was originally imagined to be T'Pau, Spock's grandmother, but issues with using the character made them change to T'Pol. How she was later incorporated into the story if there were issues is anyone's guess. No where in canon is it directly said that Sarek is T'Pau's son, but she is somehow an honored elder of Spock's extended family. So this theory has T'Pau guiding the budding Federation through her student T'-Pol and then her son/nephew/cousin Sarek is later encouraged to abandon his education as an astrophysicist to pursue a career as a diplomat, thus guiding the Federation into becoming a lightning rod to attract trouble away from Vulcan and a shield to defend Vulcan from anything that's not a Romulan mining ship with a store of Red matter on board.

ryan218

And here we have another problem: T'Pau and T'Pol didn't even know each other until the Kir'shara arc. In fact, up until Season 3, T'Pol was treated as Soval's student. On top of that, if T'Pau had an agenda towards the Federation, why didn't she join the Federation Council? In Amok Time, Kirk and McCoy make a big deal about how she was the only person to turn down a seat on the FC. Finally, there's the fact that this theory dramatically overstates the influence of diplomats.

legendarylycan

and also isn't logical, because it bases way too much on the vulcans being devious, like romulans - which they aren't​​

starswordc

> @shadowfang240 said:
> and also isn't logical, because it bases way too much on the vulcans being devious, like romulans - which they aren't​​

Sure they are. It can be perfectly logical to be devious should the situation require it. I recall a certain encounter in "The Enterprise Incident" where Spock outdid a Romulan at it. (Hilariously, that's usually the episode people cite for the "canon" that Vulcans don't lie.)

antonine3258

starswordc wrote: »

> @shadowfang240 said:
> and also isn't logical, because it bases way too much on the vulcans being devious, like romulans - which they aren't​​

Sure they are. It can be perfectly logical to be devious should the situation require it. I recall a certain encounter in "The Enterprise Incident" where Spock outdid a Romulan at it. (Hilariously, that's usually the episode people cite for the "canon" that Vulcans don't lie.)

We know they don't lie - a Vulcan told me so!

On T'Pau - Spock is so private that he never brought up his family knew or he had any familiarity with a power-broker of such skill that Kirk is in awe.

brian334

ryan218 wrote: »

And here we have another problem: T'Pau and T'Pol didn't even know each other until the Kir'shara arc. In fact, up until Season 3, T'Pol was treated as Soval's student. On top of that, if T'Pau had an agenda towards the Federation, why didn't she join the Federation Council? In Amok Time, Kirk and McCoy make a big deal about how she was the only person to turn down a seat on the FC. Finally, there's the fact that this theory dramatically overstates the influence of diplomats.

It is entirely possible that their meeting is what sparks T'Pau's interest in humanity. After all, a human held the katra of Surak and returned to the Vulcan people their Kir'shara. Her mind meld with T'Pol wasn't just to fix her mental disorder, but to have a shared understanding of humans. From that point forward, it's all about how T'pau can use them not only to control the Andorians and Tellarites, but through them use the Andorians and Tellarites to make Vulcan safe for pointy-eared folks.

We know that T'Pau becomes personally powerful by her old age, and that she is an important member of Spock's family. Her exact relation, if any, to Sarek is never stated. But, Federation politics are vastly impacted by her even though she never took a seat on the Council. Why take a seat when you already control those who have one? And what Sarek and Son did is nothing less than shape the largest power block ever founded.

A horrible thought occurred to me: Nero was right!

Think about it. A moon blows up and cripples the greatest threat to the Federation. Who shows up ready to take advantage but Spock?
Spin ahead a few decades, and after fomenting rebellion against the legitimate Romulan government, a star blows up, somehow channeled to destroy Romulus. Guess where Spock is?

Praxis was a Federation false flag operation, and so was Hobus! Spock is responsible for creating the conditions which lead to the destruction of the only entities capable of challenging its power and putting the Federation in the position to absorb all those poor, starving refugees who will become grateful, loyal Federation members. The truth is out there!

markhawkman

*watches as a flying saucer beams up brian*

legendarylycan

you're one of those flat-earthers, aren't you?​​

brian334

I don't believe in Flat Earth, but I started the rumor.

DS9 and Voyager were the only shows which didn't have a House Of Sarek appearance, but Spock is assumed to be out there still doing what he was doing in TNG. Now I discover the hero character of Discovery is Sarek's daughter by adoption, probably while Sybok and Spock are still living at home.

Most of Trek appears to be the history of Sarek's family. If I were a time traveller bent on destroying the Federation, I'd arrange to assassinate Sarek of Vulcan some time around or before his birth. It would change everything.