My biggest worry on accuracy changes for FAW is that one of FAW's best benefits pre-plasma consoles is point defense - swatting down torps/fighters.
There's at least 7 other sources of point defense - 4 of them with point defense in their name. If you want it, it's out there.
Also, Accuracy Debuff is not the same as "You will never hit a heavy torpedo or mine or pet every again with FAW". It just means you need a few more shots.
It is interesting that it took them about seven years to change BFAW to something the ability logically should have been from the beginning. A AoE attack, not the go-to wonder weapon. The meta won't move from AoE attacks since STOs maing ameplay is still trashing hordes of trash mobs, but it may put some other abilities on the table.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Also, Accuracy Debuff is not the same as "You will never hit a heavy torpedo or mine or pet ever again with FAW". It just means you need a few more shots.
I for one sincerely welcome the new Carrier-Meta. The new Heavy Dreads just got that much better and my T5U (one day to be replaced by T6) Narcine carrier is going to be a BEAST. My death squad of four Elite Mobulai frigates get immunity to warp core breaches, periodic immunity to torpedoes, faster mines, and fewer hits/less damage from FAW? Plus that hull's already nimble enough I was running it as a cannon/turret loadout.
Projectile code is in a sorry shape. With 2 existing sources of "increase destructible speed" that have no significant increase in speed (and in some cases make your projectiles slower), pardon me if i am skeptical of any changes to destructibles speed.
Convert Weapon Power to follow the new Aux power scaling? Die over-capping. Die in a fire.
Indeed. Let's nerf the new changes to Engineers before it even gets out of the gate. Bravo.
I think you missed the part in the notes where it stated that EPS Power Transfer would be given the OSS mechanic of over-capping, but being the only form of overcapping that stacks with other forms. It seems to me Engineers are going to be the only class that can effectively over-cap and get a benefit from it, which is quite logical really.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
and it looks like they made Overcapping less of a thing. Not entirely not-a-thing, but less of one.
I don't think that change has anything to do with overcapping. Rather, it sounds to me like you'll get less of a damage bonus from weapons power levels between 101-125, while penalizing you less for going below 100.
Long have I awaited the return of the great DHC....
On a more serious note, I do wonder what the changes will mean for me. DHCs did not benefit as much from over capping and EPS as beams did. I don't see much hurting me on the notes with the way I play. I don't really see anything benefiting me either. I suppose I will have to wait for the patch notes.
I think you missed the part in the notes where it stated that EPS Power Transfer would be given the OSS mechanic of over-capping, but being the only form of overcapping that stacks with other forms. It seems to me Engineers are going to be the only class that can effectively over-cap and get a benefit from it, which is quite logical really.
They changed the formula. You get less "oomph" per point of power over 100. Does not matter if it is from OSS or Engineers or some passive console. Every point over 100 gives less return than each point below 100.
That means Engineers are shafted BEFORE the change goes into effect.
Its almost certainly going to be a direct copy of how they changed Aux during the skill revamp.
And overcapping was never a thing except with weapon power, so the change made to auxiliary would never apply to that mechanic ... or are you referring to the changes impact on things like OSS that increase max power? Overcapping and increasing max power are two different things.
I think you missed the part in the notes where it stated that EPS Power Transfer would be given the OSS mechanic of over-capping, but being the only form of overcapping that stacks with other forms. It seems to me Engineers are going to be the only class that can effectively over-cap and get a benefit from it, which is quite logical really.
They changed the formula. You get less "oomph" per point of power over 100. Does not matter if it is from OSS or Engineers or some passive console. Every point over 100 gives less return than each point below 100.
That means Engineers are shafted BEFORE the change goes into effect.
No, they are not, because the Engineers could never actually benefit from their abilities to boost their weapon power further. Any ship can easily boost its power levels into regions where the extra power from engineers doesn't matter.
The change to Engineers has nothing to do with overcap. It has to do with maximum power levels the same way override subsystem safeties can boost you beyond the regular maximum power levels. And it stacks with those.
After the change, everyone will deal less damage at 125 weapon power, but the engineers are the ones that can boost their weapon power beyond 125 more often, and also higher than others can, meaning they will get more damage out of their weapons from power levels than anyone else. Of course, their ability still has to compete with Attack Pattern Alpha or Sensor Scan, but both in absolute terms and in relative terms they will likely have a buff and be a more valuable class.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
Don't mind me, I'm popping corks and drinking bloodwine over the battered corpse of faw
..and to all those who are going to complain.. You all knew faw was op and so you should have realised faw would eventually get the kicking its royally deserved for many years. Kudos to the devs for finally getting the dyson spheres to tackle the dragon of faw finally
Anyways... looks like people are also going to learn the HARD way that Science Team isn't so useless. "Oh it doesn't boost my DPS? It's a shield heal? USELESS!"
Guess what boys and girls... it clears science debuffs like SUBNUC!
I for one am totally excited about the carrier revamp. One of the MAJOR complaints besides the pet AI was the fact they always blow up via Core Breach. Which was why most of the time you'd want Frigate pets more if possible. They could take a Core Breach.
I might dust off my Mirror Vo'quv or Sarr Theln KDF side with my Slavers again.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The change to Engineers has nothing to do with overcap. It has to do with maximum power levels the same way override subsystem safeties can boost you beyond the regular maximum power levels. And it stacks with those.
True. I should have been more specific about my issue. Which is the change to power formula.
After the change, everyone will deal less damage at 125 weapon power, but the engineers are the ones that can boost their weapon power beyond 125 more often, and also higher than others can, meaning they will get more damage out of their weapons from power levels than anyone else.
We'll see. Looking at [WpnPwr] and [WpnCrit] for ground, my concern is that power management is pointless, and levels over 100 are going to give tiny returns. Which means Attack Pattern Alpha will be even stronger.
FAW nerf hum.. depends how hard this nerf hits but, here's the deal to those jumping for joy about it, NO COMPLAINING if Public queues become
A. Unpuggable due to mid-lower tier players that queue up getting hit hardest by this are not able to adapt making the matches fail.
B. Even emptier queues because A. has made Pugging unfavourable again and mid-higher tier players go back into hiding in private queues like Delta Rising did.
Also lets not forget that FAW or more importantly weapons gain huge boosts from the below list
1. Romulan Superior Operative
2. Doffs that boost energy weapon Crit
3. Plasma Embassy Consoles
4. Consoles that improve Crit chance/sev
5. Attack Patterns Omega/Beta/Delta/Delta Prime
6. Personal Traits i.e Beam Training, Anchored and if a Tact Captain A Good Day To Die
7. Starship Mastery Traits
8. Consoles boosting Weapons Haste
9. Spec Tree's
10. Reputation Traits that boost Crit
11. Spire Consoles boosting Crit
12. Tact Captains get Attack Pattern Alpha, Tact Fleet and Fire On My Mark.
13. Skill tree and Sci Ultimate.
Stacking those powers is the REAL issue behind BFAW not BFAW at its base rate. The power difference between a level 60 without any of the above except attack patterns and a level 60 with all the above is huge.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
I don't think that change has anything to do with overcapping. Rather, it sounds to me like you'll get less of a damage bonus from weapons power levels between 101-125, while penalizing you less for going below 100.
Off the bat it cuts the benefits of over-capping in half. If we're really lucky, through the awesome power of further patch notes we'll see over-capping flatly erased from existence .
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
The entire "balance" update is meaningless unless they adjust the game to the average player. Right now the game is geared for 25k+ DPS. The average player can maybe get to 7K. They need to rework the game to not be reliant on DPS and more focused on new players. Only have elite ques for the ones that must have 50K+ DPS.
Uh, no. The game's content on Advanced is designed for something like 7-12k dps. It is just that uber-DPSers have taken over so that no one learns any more how to do stuff with the DPS the content was designed for. Everybody just mindlessly melts away the enemy ships.
I kinda have to agree with this guy. Advanced is doable without 20k+ DPS. Its just everyone now expects even casual players to get that otherwise they "fail at life and must return to normal because they are non DPS masters that fail at life" (exaggerating but you get the idea).
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The entire "balance" update is meaningless unless they adjust the game to the average player. Right now the game is geared for 25k+ DPS. The average player can maybe get to 7K. They need to rework the game to not be reliant on DPS and more focused on new players. Only have elite ques for the ones that must have 50K+ DPS.
Uh, no. The game's content on Advanced is designed for something like 7-12k dps. It is just that uber-DPSers have taken over so that no one learns any more how to do stuff with the DPS the content was designed for. Everybody just mindlessly melts away the enemy ships.
FAW nerf hum.. depends how hard this nerf hits but, here's the deal to those jumping for joy about it, NO COMPLAINING if Public queues become
A. Unpuggable due to mid-lower tier players that queue up getting hit hardest by this are not able to adapt making the matches fail.
B. Even emptier queues because A. has made Pugging unfavourable again and mid-higher tier players go back into hiding in private queues like Delta Rising did.
Also lets not forget that FAW or more importantly weapons gain huge boosts from the below list
1. Romulan Superior Operative
2. Doffs that boost energy weapon Crit
3. Plasma Embassy Consoles
4. Consoles that improve Crit chance/sev
5. Attack Patterns Omega/Beta/Delta/Delta Prime
6. Personal Traits i.e Beam Training, Anchored and if a Tact Captain A Good Day To Die
7. Starship Mastery Traits
8. Consoles boosting Weapons Haste
9. Spec Tree's
10. Reputation Traits that boost Crit
11. Spire Consoles boosting Crit
12. Tact Captains get Attack Pattern Alpha, Tact Fleet and Fire On My Mark.
13. Skill tree and Sci Ultimate.
Stacking those powers is the REAL issue behind BFAW not BFAW at its base rate. The power difference between a level 60 without any of the above except attack patterns and a level 60 with all the above is huge.
Sounds like a lot of fearmongering - pugs will cope once the shock of the change ; same as science did, same engies did and tacs did from escorts online - it'll just take time
All it means is the non fawwists will have to help to keep the pugs going until the rest regain their footing - personally I thinknthis will be great as it will guide players to explore other options than circle target, hit faw x2 on spacebar
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
FAW nerf hum.. depends how hard this nerf hits but, here's the deal to those jumping for joy about it, NO COMPLAINING if Public queues become
A. Unpuggable due to mid-lower tier players that queue up getting hit hardest by this are not able to adapt making the matches fail.
B. Even emptier queues because A. has made Pugging unfavourable again and mid-higher tier players go back into hiding in private queues like Delta Rising did.
Also lets not forget that FAW or more importantly weapons gain huge boosts from the below list
1. Romulan Superior Operative
2. Doffs that boost energy weapon Crit
3. Plasma Embassy Consoles
4. Consoles that improve Crit chance/sev
5. Attack Patterns Omega/Beta/Delta/Delta Prime
6. Personal Traits i.e Beam Training, Anchored and if a Tact Captain A Good Day To Die
7. Starship Mastery Traits
8. Consoles boosting Weapons Haste
9. Spec Tree's
10. Reputation Traits that boost Crit
11. Spire Consoles boosting Crit
12. Tact Captains get Attack Pattern Alpha, Tact Fleet and Fire On My Mark.
13. Skill tree and Sci Ultimate.
Stacking those powers is the REAL issue behind BFAW not BFAW at its base rate. The power difference between a level 60 without any of the above except attack patterns and a level 60 with all the above is huge.
Sounds like a lot of fearmongering - pugs will cope once the shock of the change ; same as science did, same engies did and tacs did from escorts online - it'll just take time
All it means is the non fawwists will have to help to keep the pugs going until the rest regain their footing - personally I thinknthis will be great as it will guide players to explore other options than circle target, hit faw x2 on spacebar
Sorry fearmongering was not my intention. I was just trying to put across the point of being careful what you ask for as the grass may not be as green as you think on the other side of that fence. And that BFAW is enhanced by the list i made and that list is the biggest contributor to power creep.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
With torpedoes I think letting them still be affected by a grav-well other abilty's repel/drag/disable effect, but keeping it that they are immune to the damage portion would be a better idea. It would allow you to use the grav-well or other such abilties to corral torps even if for a duration without negating them for ever thru destroying them.
Where I see it with the change to weapon power functioning, as well as the change to eps transfer. I like the change to how weapon power works to be more inline with the other power levels, but do wish they would have altered eps abit differently. Such as that while under the effect of eps power transfer you gain double the bonus per point of power you have in a sub-system, or just that the bonus gained from your power level were the same as how weapon power works now. Tis would give engineers a nice buff thru power levels, and if this were turned into a ability that affected more that just the engineer (like as a targeted buff or group wide) it would make them very desirable.
I like the change to Beam overload as it does feel like how you would think such an ability might function, but still would have loved to see the ability altered to determine the strength of the buff (damage, and critical hit chance an severity) based on how many beam-weapons you have equipped that it would affect.
...Such as that while under the effect of eps power transfer you gain double the bonus per point of power you have in a sub-system, or just that the bonus gained from your power level were the same as how weapon power works now...
That would be really awesome. A solid contender to APA.
I like the change to Beam overload as it does feel like how you would think such an ability might function, but still would have loved to see the ability altered to determine the strength of the buff (damage, and critical hit chance an severity) based on how many beam-weapons you have equipped that it would affect.
The new B:O might be alright, but [Over] is now pretty terrible. [Over] does not get the bonus to [CrtH] and [CrtD] activating the BoFF ability grants. I would take [CrtH] (an extra 2% chance to get my [CrtD] damage mulitplier) before [Over] (a 2.5% chance for a modest increase in damage to your next beam attack).
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
...Such as that while under the effect of eps power transfer you gain double the bonus per point of power you have in a sub-system, or just that the bonus gained from your power level were the same as how weapon power works now...
That would be really awesome. A solid contender to APA.
I like the change to Beam overload as it does feel like how you would think such an ability might function, but still would have loved to see the ability altered to determine the strength of the buff (damage, and critical hit chance an severity) based on how many beam-weapons you have equipped that it would affect.
The new B:O might be alright, but [Over] is now pretty terrible. [Over] does not get the bonus to [CrtH] and [CrtD] activating the BoFF ability grants. I would take [CrtH] (an extra 2% chance to get my [CrtD] damage mulitplier) before [Over] (a 2.5% chance for a modest increase in damage to your next beam attack).
[Over] will probably be adjusted to work like [rapid], such that it activates the new version of the ability for 2 seconds
FAW nerf hum.. depends how hard this nerf hits but, here's the deal to those jumping for joy about it, NO COMPLAINING if Public queues become
A. Unpuggable due to mid-lower tier players that queue up getting hit hardest by this are not able to adapt making the matches fail.
B. Even emptier queues because A. has made Pugging unfavourable again and mid-higher tier players go back into hiding in private queues like Delta Rising did.
Also lets not forget that FAW or more importantly weapons gain huge boosts from the below list
1. Romulan Superior Operative
2. Doffs that boost energy weapon Crit
3. Plasma Embassy Consoles
4. Consoles that improve Crit chance/sev
5. Attack Patterns Omega/Beta/Delta/Delta Prime
6. Personal Traits i.e Beam Training, Anchored and if a Tact Captain A Good Day To Die
7. Starship Mastery Traits
8. Consoles boosting Weapons Haste
9. Spec Tree's
10. Reputation Traits that boost Crit
11. Spire Consoles boosting Crit
12. Tact Captains get Attack Pattern Alpha, Tact Fleet and Fire On My Mark.
13. Skill tree and Sci Ultimate.
Stacking those powers is the REAL issue behind BFAW not BFAW at its base rate. The power difference between a level 60 without any of the above except attack patterns and a level 60 with all the above is huge.
Comments
It is interesting that it took them about seven years to change BFAW to something the ability logically should have been from the beginning. A AoE attack, not the go-to wonder weapon. The meta won't move from AoE attacks since STOs maing ameplay is still trashing hordes of trash mobs, but it may put some other abilities on the table.
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I for one sincerely welcome the new Carrier-Meta. The new Heavy Dreads just got that much better and my T5U (one day to be replaced by T6) Narcine carrier is going to be a BEAST. My death squad of four Elite Mobulai frigates get immunity to warp core breaches, periodic immunity to torpedoes, faster mines, and fewer hits/less damage from FAW? Plus that hull's already nimble enough I was running it as a cannon/turret loadout.
OOObblell-Rahbblbl!! ((Xindi-Aquatic battle cry))
I think you missed the part in the notes where it stated that EPS Power Transfer would be given the OSS mechanic of over-capping, but being the only form of overcapping that stacks with other forms. It seems to me Engineers are going to be the only class that can effectively over-cap and get a benefit from it, which is quite logical really.
I don't think that change has anything to do with overcapping. Rather, it sounds to me like you'll get less of a damage bonus from weapons power levels between 101-125, while penalizing you less for going below 100.
On a more serious note, I do wonder what the changes will mean for me. DHCs did not benefit as much from over capping and EPS as beams did. I don't see much hurting me on the notes with the way I play. I don't really see anything benefiting me either. I suppose I will have to wait for the patch notes.
That means Engineers are shafted BEFORE the change goes into effect.
And overcapping was never a thing except with weapon power, so the change made to auxiliary would never apply to that mechanic ... or are you referring to the changes impact on things like OSS that increase max power? Overcapping and increasing max power are two different things.
The change to Engineers has nothing to do with overcap. It has to do with maximum power levels the same way override subsystem safeties can boost you beyond the regular maximum power levels. And it stacks with those.
After the change, everyone will deal less damage at 125 weapon power, but the engineers are the ones that can boost their weapon power beyond 125 more often, and also higher than others can, meaning they will get more damage out of their weapons from power levels than anyone else. Of course, their ability still has to compete with Attack Pattern Alpha or Sensor Scan, but both in absolute terms and in relative terms they will likely have a buff and be a more valuable class.
Anyways... looks like people are also going to learn the HARD way that Science Team isn't so useless. "Oh it doesn't boost my DPS? It's a shield heal? USELESS!"
Guess what boys and girls... it clears science debuffs like SUBNUC!
I for one am totally excited about the carrier revamp. One of the MAJOR complaints besides the pet AI was the fact they always blow up via Core Breach. Which was why most of the time you'd want Frigate pets more if possible. They could take a Core Breach.
I might dust off my Mirror Vo'quv or Sarr Theln KDF side with my Slavers again.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Nope. If they want to bring back DHCs then they need to buff back escorts to the stars... (pun intended)
Everyone loves space whales now. Cannons and cruisers/dreads do not mix. Period.
A. Unpuggable due to mid-lower tier players that queue up getting hit hardest by this are not able to adapt making the matches fail.
B. Even emptier queues because A. has made Pugging unfavourable again and mid-higher tier players go back into hiding in private queues like Delta Rising did.
Also lets not forget that FAW or more importantly weapons gain huge boosts from the below list
1. Romulan Superior Operative
2. Doffs that boost energy weapon Crit
3. Plasma Embassy Consoles
4. Consoles that improve Crit chance/sev
5. Attack Patterns Omega/Beta/Delta/Delta Prime
6. Personal Traits i.e Beam Training, Anchored and if a Tact Captain A Good Day To Die
7. Starship Mastery Traits
8. Consoles boosting Weapons Haste
9. Spec Tree's
10. Reputation Traits that boost Crit
11. Spire Consoles boosting Crit
12. Tact Captains get Attack Pattern Alpha, Tact Fleet and Fire On My Mark.
13. Skill tree and Sci Ultimate.
Stacking those powers is the REAL issue behind BFAW not BFAW at its base rate. The power difference between a level 60 without any of the above except attack patterns and a level 60 with all the above is huge.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Off the bat it cuts the benefits of over-capping in half. If we're really lucky, through the awesome power of further patch notes we'll see over-capping flatly erased from existence .
I kinda have to agree with this guy. Advanced is doable without 20k+ DPS. Its just everyone now expects even casual players to get that otherwise they "fail at life and must return to normal because they are non DPS masters that fail at life" (exaggerating but you get the idea).
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
you mean to do something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1UplKy5oYM
And pets are getting stronger so yea even easier than it is right now
Additionally, the changes to faw.. we need to test them on tribble first before we could really say something about it
ingame: @Felisean
Sounds like a lot of fearmongering - pugs will cope once the shock of the change ; same as science did, same engies did and tacs did from escorts online - it'll just take time
All it means is the non fawwists will have to help to keep the pugs going until the rest regain their footing - personally I thinknthis will be great as it will guide players to explore other options than circle target, hit faw x2 on spacebar
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That's what it is. Fear of change. They're so set in their ways that anything that affects their builds = DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!
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colored text = mod mode
Good, I guess we will have no problem in the salt(y) department.
Sorry fearmongering was not my intention. I was just trying to put across the point of being careful what you ask for as the grass may not be as green as you think on the other side of that fence. And that BFAW is enhanced by the list i made and that list is the biggest contributor to power creep.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Where I see it with the change to weapon power functioning, as well as the change to eps transfer. I like the change to how weapon power works to be more inline with the other power levels, but do wish they would have altered eps abit differently. Such as that while under the effect of eps power transfer you gain double the bonus per point of power you have in a sub-system, or just that the bonus gained from your power level were the same as how weapon power works now. Tis would give engineers a nice buff thru power levels, and if this were turned into a ability that affected more that just the engineer (like as a targeted buff or group wide) it would make them very desirable.
I like the change to Beam overload as it does feel like how you would think such an ability might function, but still would have loved to see the ability altered to determine the strength of the buff (damage, and critical hit chance an severity) based on how many beam-weapons you have equipped that it would affect.
The new B:O might be alright, but [Over] is now pretty terrible. [Over] does not get the bonus to [CrtH] and [CrtD] activating the BoFF ability grants. I would take [CrtH] (an extra 2% chance to get my [CrtD] damage mulitplier) before [Over] (a 2.5% chance for a modest increase in damage to your next beam attack).
YES! YES! YES!
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
[Over] will probably be adjusted to work like [rapid], such that it activates the new version of the ability for 2 seconds
Someone understands.