The true test is, if they can close the Portals in the Mirror Incursion Event faster than normal, then you know they are truly Science ships.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I don't mind seeing BFAW get spanked. Torp spreads with energy based torpedos are more fun to watch so i can offset FAW with a torp spread of a higher level for my Nausi or Crystal torpedo launchers while hitting beam overload. My tac can always go back to cannons and the torp buffs will make my T'varo's RED BALL OF DEATH more interesting hopefully.
To say it's overperforming would be an understatement of massive proportions. It's an AOE power that beats all other powers, whether is vs 1 target or many targets. I suspect even with this nerf it'll still outperform everything else.
This reminds me of the whining everytime Cryptic tried to make the Borg set heal-proc more reasonable. The only reason it's largely forgotten about now is because everything else is even more overpowered.
To say it's overperforming would be an understatement of massive proportions. It's an AOE power that beats all other powers, whether is vs 1 target or many targets. I suspect even with this nerf it'll still outperform everything else.
This reminds me of the whining everytime Cryptic tried to make the Borg set heal-proc more reasonable. The only reason it's largely forgotten about now is because everything else is even more overpowered.
There are a few of us that aren't really whining about FaW getting nerfed, but attempting to explain to the ignorant that FaW isn't the only issue here. It's everything else buffing the FaW that's problematic. My concern is they nerf FaW and it still performs relatively well, particularly for those players at the upper end of the dps spectrum while hurting those at the lower end. In the future I can almost guarantee will see new consoles, traits, ...etc introduced that buff FaW back up. Which leaves us with the question why even bother?
((shrug)) I don't have to "debate" on FAW. The changes they're moving towards are already within spitting distance of my exact preferred nerfs for it (I wanted damage to be reduced only if there were too few targets present, and for the accuracy penalties to only apply to hangar pets and projectiles). They seem to be using simpler systems (-all damage, - all accuracy) and a little heavier hand than I advocated for. Can't say that bothers me. Maybe now that the axe is already falling someone will suddenly come up with a profound reason it shouldn't get chopped, or present a neat alternative to the aspects that are gonna get chopped, but frankly I've been listening attentively and discussing openly for 18 months now, and I ain't heard great proposals of either sort.
We already had this thread last month, and people had a big long list of things that contribute to the problem. Make no mistake, the Devs read that thread... And while I'm sure 95% of the culprits and solutions had already occurred to them, we'll likely be seeing a few gems from it appearing in the upcoming Tribble Patch Notes. Then we can really get down to chest beating .
But mostly I think if there's "bandwagoning" is because no matter how many people say its not the only troublesome mechanic, it probably is the worst offender and its one of the few things they openly took the nerfbat to in the blog.
Look at the title of the thread. That's a ton of pent up frustration finally finding release right there.
I don't think they're being too heavy handed with the FaW change Nike, I think they're about right on, considering at the moment a single player can buff up and wipe an adv mob in a little under 5 secs at 40-50k.
But if the only changes are to subsystem power bonuses and FaW, well, that won't solve "the game is too easy because of FaW" complaints, nor the "FaW AFK'd me" complaints. Those are still going to happen.
The 100k+ players will still come in and face roll adv, even elite. They might do 80k now as opposed to 100k, but still wipe an adv or even elite mob in as little as 3 secs.
That all said, I wasn't aware of the Space Balance thread you mentioned. That's good news. I'll be giving it a read later.
No it's not very productive, but neither is repairing a car and then never changing the oil. Or putting on parts that will compromise the engine or other running parts. Nor is adding so much power that touching the pedal suddenly sends you to 120miles/hr in under 1 sec (if we're trying to be street legal/balanced here).
I'm not opposed to changes but if they're going to nerf/adjust the status quo we've know for quite some time, well, I want a comprehensive/thoughtful job done. Most importantly I want the root causes identified and resolved. And careful release of new abilities, traits, items and consoles so we don't end up in another balance pass situation 2 years down the road.
If the fundamentals are sound, then new powercreep shouldn't be an issue an have a gentle slope over time.
Picking on the low hanging fruit that is FaW because it's the easiest/most convenient delivery system of all the other broken stuff isn't really a solution to all the other broken stuff. And kind of ignorant. (Not saying you specifically mustrum).
But hey, it seems they are going to be looking at a lot more then I had originally thought. So that's good news and I'm cautiously optimistic.
The equation used to determine how weapons power influences your damage has been changed to a higher benefit at low power levels than before, and the same benefit as before at 100 weapons power, and slightly less while above.
Since they already did the same with Auxiliary power, thereby hitting Scis, it's fair that weapon power gets the same treatment now.
What exactly does it mean? That weapon power decreases above 100?
No...it means that having 125 after the change might be like having 110 or 115 now, but that it will still be better than having 100. Below 100, having 80 after the change might be like having 90 now. Not real numbers, but that's the gist of how weapon power level will perform...bring the floor up and the ceiling down.
Projectile code is in a sorry shape. With 2 existing sources of "increase destructible speed" that have no significant increase in speed (and in some cases make your projectiles slower), pardon me if i am skeptical of any changes to destructibles speed.
Convert Weapon Power to follow the new Aux power scaling? Die over-capping. Die in a fire.
Indeed. Let's nerf the new changes to Engineers before it even gets out of the gate. Bravo.
I think you missed the part in the notes where it stated that EPS Power Transfer would be given the OSS mechanic of over-capping, but being the only form of overcapping that stacks with other forms. It seems to me Engineers are going to be the only class that can effectively over-cap and get a benefit from it, which is quite logical really.
Exactly...they now get something unique that no other career quite gets. Something that there are other ways to do, but which they do best at.
[Over] isn't that bad. I had a friend last night break 86k in a PUG using MkII [Dmg]x2 [Over] Phasers with a substantial amount of the DPS coming from [Over] procs. One simply has to build towards it properly.
which is currently impossible to do as most of the things that work with BO DON'T work with [Over]
Wrong. Sorry..
Surely there's something more useful than that? What things do work, and how would you design a ship to use that proc?
Biggest issue I have with the FAW nerf is cryptic literally has sold through cstore and lobi (lockbox ships) which quite literally come off as being designed to bring synergies to these traits.
The biggest issue non FAW users have with it is because beams have a 250 arc and only the terrible cannons come close 180... mess with the arcs before you start nerfing damage to oblivion.
Especially the console crowd, you nerf our builds that have cost real money and expect a fickle crowd (more so) then of players to stick around? And console has been around less than a year compared to PC yet we are getting the same hits... probably gonna be a 30% or more drop in player base on console if the nerfs hit live as stated... not a smart move at all
If a dev is about, I do have a small question... with the immunity lockouts, what is going to happen to pilot escort maneuver immunity? Being stuck with the same lockout is understandable but will the pilot moves, say, instead get a brief spike in defence instead or just become maneuvers with added immunity when they can be used? (Not sure how long it takes for booster fuel to replenish off the top of my head)
unless we know how big a nerf... FAW could still be viable. they added that ship sci skill that reduced the distance penalty for energy weapons... would this "nerf" undo this or reduce the benefits? /shrug
There are a few of us that aren't really whining about FaW getting nerfed, but attempting to explain to the ignorant that FaW isn't the only issue here. It's everything else buffing the FaW that's problematic.
Wrong. It DOES NOT MATTER that there are other problems. BFAW is still the single largest of the problems and all of them are going to get looked at. No one crowing that BFAW is finally getting nerfed thinks that's the beginning or end of the changes coming. Only the people trying to protect their precious, GROSSLY OVERPERFORMING ability are claiming that, hoping they can direct attention elsewhere.
BFAW's getting nerfed. This ain't up for debate. The arguments aren't new and judgement HAS BEEN RENDERED.
If you'd like to add to the list of other things ALSO getting nerfed, awesome, but you're not going to stop what's been obvious to the rest of us.
My concern is they nerf FaW and it still performs relatively well, particularly for those players at the upper end of the dps spectrum while hurting those at the lower end. In the future I can almost guarantee will see new consoles, traits, ...etc introduced that buff FaW back up. Which leaves us with the question why even bother?
If it makes no difference then why are you concerned? Oh, because it does make a difference. It's like you've got a piece of apple pie in your mouth and after your eyes go wide with delight you mumble "no, no, this is terrible, You shouldn't eat this (so there's more for me)."
No one's buying it. And only children think that trick works.
Biggest issue I have with the FAW nerf is cryptic literally has sold through cstore and lobi (lockbox ships) which quite literally come off as being designed to bring synergies to these traits.
I'll bite. What ship(s) do you think HAS TO run as a BFAW spam platform?
Romulan scimitar t6 variants which literally JUST became sellable... try running anything but beams on those...
I'm probably a bit more salty about the change then others for the sheer reason on timing. I wholeheartedly agree with understand the changes from a pc perspective who have had this meta for a long time as well as access to many of the ships consoles just received but it just grinds my gears that I literally can't justify flying anything but beams on ships I just bought to find out that less than 9 months into console release we are receiving a balance patch that shoulda been done before console release or at the very least staggered changes not the volume they are alluding to which will also have its own consequences of changing that many mechanics at once...
Editing to add that IMO anythig 7 turn or under requires beam builds to not want to rip your hair out... the other builds are more viable on escorts/cruisers
The other "zen" and lobi ships were in reference to hidig some of the top synergy t6 traits behind those and then nerfing them because cryptic gave everyone to many shiny new toys
Try loading it with cannons and turrets. Maybe A SINGLE dual cannon if you have access to some nice sets/set bonuses. Really. Try it. 5/3 ships tend to do that even better than 4/4s.
I really don't think you'll find the experience all that lacking once you get the hang of it .
Do you have fleet RCS or Improved Neutronium [Turn] consoles in game yet? Helmsman trait? And if you're in a scimi, that means you should be able to get the Auxiliary Warp Cores console for a song.
Cannon scimis are VIOLENT once you start to build around that weapons load.
There are a few of us that aren't really whining about FaW getting nerfed, but attempting to explain to the ignorant that FaW isn't the only issue here. It's everything else buffing the FaW that's problematic.
Wrong. It DOES NOT MATTER that there are other problems. BFAW is still the single largest of the problems and all of them are going to get looked at. No one crowing that BFAW is finally getting nerfed thinks that's the beginning or end of the changes coming. Only the people trying to protect their precious, GROSSLY OVERPERFORMING ability are claiming that, hoping they can direct attention elsewhere.
BFAW's getting nerfed. This ain't up for debate. The arguments aren't new and judgement HAS BEEN RENDERED.
If you'd like to add to the list of other things ALSO getting nerfed, awesome, but you're not going to stop what's been obvious to the rest of us.
My concern is they nerf FaW and it still performs relatively well, particularly for those players at the upper end of the dps spectrum while hurting those at the lower end. In the future I can almost guarantee will see new consoles, traits, ...etc introduced that buff FaW back up. Which leaves us with the question why even bother?
If it makes no difference then why are you concerned? Oh, because it does make a difference. It's like you've got a piece of apple pie in your mouth and after your eyes go wide with delight you mumble "no, no, this is terrible, You shouldn't eat this (so there's more for me)."
No one's buying it. And only children think that trick works.
I disagree. If faw was such a huge problem why was it not a problem before LoR? To answer this question you need to look at all the layers of buffs that have been added since that time. I used a FaW build years ago back in the Escorts Online days and people used to laugh at me because the damage was...shall we say not impressive. A fleet mate of mine called my ship the "French tickler" because the beams did little damage compared to DHC. The reasons for the low damage are numerous none of which had to do with my build, which was for the time, pretty solid.
You need to remember that there were no SRO bridge officers, fewer consoles granting CrtH & CrtD, and no Vulnerability locators. Overall CrtH & CrtD were much lower then what we see today. So that means far fewer critical hits and far less damage from a critical hit because severity was also quite low. Additionally, there was much less you could do to alleviate weapon energy drain. Fed side didn't even have Plasmonic leech nor did we have starship traits like supremacy, or emergency weapon cycle. It was normal for weapon power to dip below 70 which lowered damage significantly. Now with the addition of K-13 we have added superior traits which increase damage even further. There will be another holding and there will be more power creep. History has proven that. This game is built on introducing new power creep. FaW itself isn't overpowered it's all the power creep beneath it that has made it so powerful.
The reason I'm bothering to discuss the nerf to faw is because I think the resources (man hours) could be used elsewhere to improve the game. I personally stopped using faw build a little while ago on my primary characters so any nerf to it won't affect me. I just don't see the point considering everything I discussed above. I've been here long enough to see nerfs and we always end up back to this place where people want such and such nerfed into the ground.
In case anyone thought cannons weren't getting looked at too.
The cycle during which cannon weapons actively fire is now 5 seconds, up from 3
The damage cannon weapons do with each shot has been adjusted to account for the changes made to their firing cycles
Bye-bye, Protonic Kool-Aid down-the-drain builds. Only about one player in a thousand knew you even existed, but you were fun while it lasted .
A small nerf to cannon/turret builds (12 chances to proc per minute, down from 20), but quite livable.
In case anyone thought cannons weren't getting looked at too.
The cycle during which cannon weapons actively fire is now 5 seconds, up from 3
The damage cannon weapons do with each shot has been adjusted to account for the changes made to their firing cycles
Bye-bye, Protonic Kool-Aid down-the-drain builds. Only about one player in a thousand knew you even existed, but you were fun while it lasted .
A small nerf to cannon/turret builds (12 chances to proc per minute, down from 20), but quite livable.
This change affect all cannons; C, DC, DHC, and turrets?
This change affect all cannons; C, DC, DHC, and turrets?
Did you have a different interpretation of the words "cannon weapons" in mind? Because I'm thinking if they meant only single cannons (which would be hella weird) the word "weapons" wouldn't be there.
This change affect all cannons; C, DC, DHC, and turrets?
Did you have a different interpretation of the words "cannon weapons" in mind? Because I'm thinking if they meant only single cannons (which would be hella weird) the word "weapons" wouldn't be there.
I figured it meant all of them, but was just trying to get confirmation. I was always under the impression that certain cannons operated on different cycles or fired more shots per cycle.
I don't mind seeing BFAW get spanked. Torp spreads with energy based torpedos are more fun to watch so i can offset FAW with a torp spread of a higher level for my Nausi or Crystal torpedo launchers
"First they came for FAW and I said nothing because I didn't like FAW." Now they've come for Torp Spread. I hope you're happy now.
All fun and games until they come for your gear and build.
•The Plasma proc on Weapon Signature Nullifiers and Amplifiers from the Fleet Embassy no longer bypasses shields, has had its damage reduced to 25% of what it was previously, and now procs per cycle instead of per shot.
Well, the DPS League is going to need to pull a hard reset of all records after the plasma exploder consoles get nerfed to oblivion. Were talking whole new meta, and the old numbers are gonna be irrelevant.
I will never not be happy to see the 'science version' of ships stop being the DPS champions of the trio.
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
To say it's overperforming would be an understatement of massive proportions. It's an AOE power that beats all other powers, whether is vs 1 target or many targets. I suspect even with this nerf it'll still outperform everything else.
This reminds me of the whining everytime Cryptic tried to make the Borg set heal-proc more reasonable. The only reason it's largely forgotten about now is because everything else is even more overpowered.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
There are a few of us that aren't really whining about FaW getting nerfed, but attempting to explain to the ignorant that FaW isn't the only issue here. It's everything else buffing the FaW that's problematic. My concern is they nerf FaW and it still performs relatively well, particularly for those players at the upper end of the dps spectrum while hurting those at the lower end. In the future I can almost guarantee will see new consoles, traits, ...etc introduced that buff FaW back up. Which leaves us with the question why even bother?
I don't think they're being too heavy handed with the FaW change Nike, I think they're about right on, considering at the moment a single player can buff up and wipe an adv mob in a little under 5 secs at 40-50k.
But if the only changes are to subsystem power bonuses and FaW, well, that won't solve "the game is too easy because of FaW" complaints, nor the "FaW AFK'd me" complaints. Those are still going to happen.
The 100k+ players will still come in and face roll adv, even elite. They might do 80k now as opposed to 100k, but still wipe an adv or even elite mob in as little as 3 secs.
That all said, I wasn't aware of the Space Balance thread you mentioned. That's good news. I'll be giving it a read later.
@mustrumridcully0
No it's not very productive, but neither is repairing a car and then never changing the oil. Or putting on parts that will compromise the engine or other running parts. Nor is adding so much power that touching the pedal suddenly sends you to 120miles/hr in under 1 sec (if we're trying to be street legal/balanced here).
I'm not opposed to changes but if they're going to nerf/adjust the status quo we've know for quite some time, well, I want a comprehensive/thoughtful job done. Most importantly I want the root causes identified and resolved. And careful release of new abilities, traits, items and consoles so we don't end up in another balance pass situation 2 years down the road.
If the fundamentals are sound, then new powercreep shouldn't be an issue an have a gentle slope over time.
Picking on the low hanging fruit that is FaW because it's the easiest/most convenient delivery system of all the other broken stuff isn't really a solution to all the other broken stuff. And kind of ignorant. (Not saying you specifically mustrum).
But hey, it seems they are going to be looking at a lot more then I had originally thought. So that's good news and I'm cautiously optimistic.
No...it means that having 125 after the change might be like having 110 or 115 now, but that it will still be better than having 100. Below 100, having 80 after the change might be like having 90 now. Not real numbers, but that's the gist of how weapon power level will perform...bring the floor up and the ceiling down.
Exactly...they now get something unique that no other career quite gets. Something that there are other ways to do, but which they do best at.
Surely there's something more useful than that? What things do work, and how would you design a ship to use that proc?
The biggest issue non FAW users have with it is because beams have a 250 arc and only the terrible cannons come close 180... mess with the arcs before you start nerfing damage to oblivion.
Especially the console crowd, you nerf our builds that have cost real money and expect a fickle crowd (more so) then of players to stick around? And console has been around less than a year compared to PC yet we are getting the same hits... probably gonna be a 30% or more drop in player base on console if the nerfs hit live as stated... not a smart move at all
Edited for auto correct, yay
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Wrong. It DOES NOT MATTER that there are other problems. BFAW is still the single largest of the problems and all of them are going to get looked at. No one crowing that BFAW is finally getting nerfed thinks that's the beginning or end of the changes coming. Only the people trying to protect their precious, GROSSLY OVERPERFORMING ability are claiming that, hoping they can direct attention elsewhere.
BFAW's getting nerfed. This ain't up for debate. The arguments aren't new and judgement HAS BEEN RENDERED.
If you'd like to add to the list of other things ALSO getting nerfed, awesome, but you're not going to stop what's been obvious to the rest of us.
If it makes no difference then why are you concerned? Oh, because it does make a difference. It's like you've got a piece of apple pie in your mouth and after your eyes go wide with delight you mumble "no, no, this is terrible, You shouldn't eat this (so there's more for me)."
No one's buying it. And only children think that trick works.
I'll bite. What ship(s) do you think HAS TO run as a BFAW spam platform?
I'm probably a bit more salty about the change then others for the sheer reason on timing. I wholeheartedly agree with understand the changes from a pc perspective who have had this meta for a long time as well as access to many of the ships consoles just received but it just grinds my gears that I literally can't justify flying anything but beams on ships I just bought to find out that less than 9 months into console release we are receiving a balance patch that shoulda been done before console release or at the very least staggered changes not the volume they are alluding to which will also have its own consequences of changing that many mechanics at once...
Editing to add that IMO anythig 7 turn or under requires beam builds to not want to rip your hair out... the other builds are more viable on escorts/cruisers
The other "zen" and lobi ships were in reference to hidig some of the top synergy t6 traits behind those and then nerfing them because cryptic gave everyone to many shiny new toys
I really don't think you'll find the experience all that lacking once you get the hang of it
Do you have fleet RCS or Improved Neutronium [Turn] consoles in game yet? Helmsman trait? And if you're in a scimi, that means you should be able to get the Auxiliary Warp Cores console for a song.
Cannon scimis are VIOLENT once you start to build around that weapons load.
I disagree. If faw was such a huge problem why was it not a problem before LoR? To answer this question you need to look at all the layers of buffs that have been added since that time. I used a FaW build years ago back in the Escorts Online days and people used to laugh at me because the damage was...shall we say not impressive. A fleet mate of mine called my ship the "French tickler" because the beams did little damage compared to DHC. The reasons for the low damage are numerous none of which had to do with my build, which was for the time, pretty solid.
You need to remember that there were no SRO bridge officers, fewer consoles granting CrtH & CrtD, and no Vulnerability locators. Overall CrtH & CrtD were much lower then what we see today. So that means far fewer critical hits and far less damage from a critical hit because severity was also quite low. Additionally, there was much less you could do to alleviate weapon energy drain. Fed side didn't even have Plasmonic leech nor did we have starship traits like supremacy, or emergency weapon cycle. It was normal for weapon power to dip below 70 which lowered damage significantly. Now with the addition of K-13 we have added superior traits which increase damage even further. There will be another holding and there will be more power creep. History has proven that. This game is built on introducing new power creep. FaW itself isn't overpowered it's all the power creep beneath it that has made it so powerful.
The reason I'm bothering to discuss the nerf to faw is because I think the resources (man hours) could be used elsewhere to improve the game. I personally stopped using faw build a little while ago on my primary characters so any nerf to it won't affect me. I just don't see the point considering everything I discussed above. I've been here long enough to see nerfs and we always end up back to this place where people want such and such nerfed into the ground.
Bye-bye, Protonic Kool-Aid down-the-drain builds. Only about one player in a thousand knew you even existed, but you were fun while it lasted
A small nerf to cannon/turret builds (12 chances to proc per minute, down from 20), but quite livable.
This change affect all cannons; C, DC, DHC, and turrets?
Did you have a different interpretation of the words "cannon weapons" in mind? Because I'm thinking if they meant only single cannons (which would be hella weird) the word "weapons" wouldn't be there.
I figured it meant all of them, but was just trying to get confirmation. I was always under the impression that certain cannons operated on different cycles or fired more shots per cycle.
All fun and games until they come for your gear and build.
From the Tribble Patch Notes:
That is so incredibly satisfying.
I will never not be happy to see the 'science version' of ships stop being the DPS champions of the trio.