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Cryptic to focus on pvp?

tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
https://i.redd.it/hp9kr4elma9y.png

^

So I saw this picture on reddit, and I was wondering why even bother to bring out new pvp content if it's beyond broken? It was never in a great state to begin with, but it was at least do-able before "the greatest expansion ever". Back then there were way less (over-the-top) abilities, immunities/penetrations, p2w toys, 1-shot kill mechanics and monster-grinding to name a few. In the old days the game was better held together strategically in its minimal, yet functional state before it went overboard with the "moar dp$" hysteria and the constant release of new, but poorly tested and broken abilities. The game right now feels even less like science fiction and more like some anime-based Final Fantasy fest with a blinding haze of 'magical' effects in combat that only an impressionable console kid would appreciate. (And while at it i'll say NO I'm not looking forward to ANOTHER reputation tab in Season 12 - It's time to stop!)

So the final result today is that only a handful of (toxic) players actually play pvp (10-30 people or so I think), while the rest of the thousands of players don't whatsoever (and I don't blame em). After taking a 6 month break, I came back only to see the same few people every single time in the queues and Ker'rat... and that made me think that the general suggestion around here to just remove pvp from the game alltogether may not be so bad actually. Because quite frankly, I don't think Cryptic has any idea how much work it takes to undo the damage they've done to the game by truly fixing pvp.

Merely releasing a new map might bring in a few more players, but it won't be long before the old toxic playerbase, whales and trolls will immediately drive off any potential new comer. Still... if Cryptic is actually serious about bringing pvp back, then heck, I won't stop them, but I'm just saying they have a TON of work to do to balance things out.



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Comments

  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,490 Arc User
    I think in order to make PvP work again you would have to detach it from the rest of the game and make a complete overhaul.

    - define a fixed set of abilities as well as space and starship traits for PvP (and lock out most immunity and immortality traits)
    - create specialized space and ground sets
    - massively reduce graphic effects in order to improve FPS
    - create a system that teams up players of somewhat equal expericence and capability
    - introduce rewards for playing PvP matches

    Personally I would very much welcome more Kerrat style PvP zones. That's the only type of PvP I enjoy from time to time. But even though they claim to focus on PvP in the near future, I believe it when I see it. It wouldn't be the first time such intentions vanish into thin air.
  • mmps1mmps1 Member Posts: 381 Arc User
    They're sticking a new map in for PvP, I would hardly call it focus.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    What PvP needs is what all game content needs: rewards

    People don't play PvP anymore because it's not worth the time.
  • keladorkelador Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    szim wrote: »
    I think in order to make PvP work again you would have to detach it from the rest of the game and make a complete overhaul.

    - define a fixed set of abilities as well as space and starship traits for PvP (and lock out most immunity and immortality traits)
    - create specialized space and ground sets
    - massively reduce graphic effects in order to improve FPS
    - create a system that teams up players of somewhat equal expericence and capability
    - introduce rewards for playing PvP matches

    Personally I would very much welcome more Kerrat style PvP zones. That's the only type of PvP I enjoy from time to time. But even though they claim to focus on PvP in the near future, I believe it when I see it. It wouldn't be the first time such intentions vanish into thin air.

    I dont think it needs to be detach just like you stated it needs restrictions applied to players when they enter PVP

    - Disable Specialization tree's and lockout most traits and abilties other than a select few which have been PVP approved (less is more in PVP!) (things like feedback pulse need to be disabled)
    - massively reduce graphic effects in order to improve FPS (Just disable all buff and over the top effects keep beams and sheilds etc)
    - Level matching system will work fine if the first on this list is done
    - introduce rewards for playing PvP matches

    So yeah its not that hard to fix PVP when you think about it just disable all the over top stuff and reduce graphical effects, its giving people a reason to play pvp that will take work things like ranking tables, tournament systems for rewards and different game modes is what most people that PVP will expect.

    Yes this is mainly for console players but the console market is a big one and lots of money to make if they can draw in the crowd and lets face it thats what console players expect in a game and PVP done right would be dam fun.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    warpangel wrote: »
    What PvP needs is what all game content needs: rewards

    People don't play PvP anymore because it's not worth the time.

    I tend to agree. The main focus of most mmopg player is to progress and to advance ones characters. For that one needs rewards.

    PvP is a waste of time in that regard. Problem with PvP rewards often is that they are easy exploitable. Back at the day players were able to generate absurd amounts of Dil in fake PvP matches.

    One solution would be to turn PvP into an activity that actually matters:

    Two or more competitors insert a sum of Dil/EC or whatever out of thier own possession. Then they fight and the winner gets it all. The looser loses what he inserted and the winner simply gets it. No additional currency generated out of the system. No bull.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    tremere12 wrote: »
    Back then there were way less (over-the-top) abilities, immunities/penetrations, p2w toys, 1-shot kill mechanics and monster-grinding to name a few.

    Thanks for reminding why I stopped PvP a few years back.

    “(over-the-top) abilities, immunities/penetrations & 1-shot kill mechanics” are indeed a problem of the game that hinders PvP but nothing a solid set of core rules of a dedicated PvP community could not separate out.

    But so called stuff like “p2w toys” and especially “monster-grinding” in STO were and still are nothing more than an expression of laziness of fellow PvPers when they learn that some players simply do their homework while others do not.
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,840 Arc User
    I generally dislike PvP in MMOs, but on the subject of rewards they should just create a new PvP only reputation using marks obtainable only in PvP matches, and rewarding gear that is only useful in PvP (ie shields that reduce damage from other players, weapons that crit more often against other players, etc)
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  • keladorkelador Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    I generally dislike PvP in MMOs, but on the subject of rewards they should just create a new PvP only reputation using marks obtainable only in PvP matches, and rewarding gear that is only useful in PvP (ie shields that reduce damage from other players, weapons that crit more often against other players, etc)

    The problem is it will be abused with PVP in its current state for example on the PS4 there is a PVP Fleet that will remain nameless that like to smack talk and generally put people off playing PVP what they do is spam zone chat get people to join the PVP session where they have a a full team all running feedback pulse and they just sit there pop all they pet call ins and deplorable abilities which grinds the server to a halt and let people basically kill themselves with feedback pulse lol they then smack talk in zone chat about how good they are.... PVP is now almost dead on the PS4 thanks to these guys lol

    But my point is as you can see from my story above the system will be abused and it will not be due to exploits or anything it will just be because PVP is just broken...
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,840 Arc User
    kelador wrote: »
    I generally dislike PvP in MMOs, but on the subject of rewards they should just create a new PvP only reputation using marks obtainable only in PvP matches, and rewarding gear that is only useful in PvP (ie shields that reduce damage from other players, weapons that crit more often against other players, etc)

    The problem is it will be abused with PVP in its current state for example on the PS4 there is a PVP Fleet that will remain nameless that like to smack talk and generally put people off playing PVP what they do is spam zone chat get people to join the PVP session where they have a a full team all running feedback pulse and they just sit there pop all they pet call ins and deplorable abilities which grinds the server to a halt and let people basically kill themselves with feedback pulse lol they then smack talk in zone chat about how good they are.... PVP is now almost dead on the PS4 thanks to these guys lol

    But my point is as you can see from my story above the system will be abused and it will not be due to exploits or anything it will just be because PVP is just broken...

    I was only commenting on the rewards aspect, but you're absolutely right that PvP mechanics are completely broken. As for the PS4 thing I don't know anything about that, PC only here.
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    Feedback pulse, for the PC at least, is the least of my concern. Temporal-based damage is physical, bypasses shields and can hardly be resisted (so much for shield tanking). But heck, I could go on to write a blacklist, but it would be too long.

  • keladorkelador Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    kelador wrote: »
    I generally dislike PvP in MMOs, but on the subject of rewards they should just create a new PvP only reputation using marks obtainable only in PvP matches, and rewarding gear that is only useful in PvP (ie shields that reduce damage from other players, weapons that crit more often against other players, etc)

    The problem is it will be abused with PVP in its current state for example on the PS4 there is a PVP Fleet that will remain nameless that like to smack talk and generally put people off playing PVP what they do is spam zone chat get people to join the PVP session where they have a a full team all running feedback pulse and they just sit there pop all they pet call ins and deplorable abilities which grinds the server to a halt and let people basically kill themselves with feedback pulse lol they then smack talk in zone chat about how good they are.... PVP is now almost dead on the PS4 thanks to these guys lol

    But my point is as you can see from my story above the system will be abused and it will not be due to exploits or anything it will just be because PVP is just broken...

    I was only commenting on the rewards aspect, but you're absolutely right that PvP mechanics are completely broken. As for the PS4 thing I don't know anything about that, PC only here.

    Yeah I moved over to the PS4 the current state of PVP is it was very active at first and people that are new to the game their goal seems to be get to end game do PVP but when they get their they find out how bad it is and get griefed and then loose interest and either stay to work on their character with the hopes it will get balanced... yeah I laugh a lot when I see people saying in chat they its a new game it will get fixed...... But most people tend to leave as they have blown through the content and get bored with running STF's.
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 584 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    ^^ finally someone who gets it. FBP, Immunities, and the Invincible trait are hardly the main problems in PvP anymore. It's the over the top damage that bypasses shields and hull resists. One of the main reasons people don't PvP anymore is because they just die in 2 seconds and don't know why. It's more about that then the rewards, since a lot of people play PvP to have fun, not for the rewards (primarily).

    People think that shields are useless in PvE because they're almost insta drained. Try dying with your shields up, that's even worse.
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  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    kelador wrote: »
    I generally dislike PvP in MMOs, but on the subject of rewards they should just create a new PvP only reputation using marks obtainable only in PvP matches, and rewarding gear that is only useful in PvP (ie shields that reduce damage from other players, weapons that crit more often against other players, etc)

    The problem is it will be abused with PVP in its current state for example on the PS4 there is a PVP Fleet that will remain nameless that like to smack talk and generally put people off playing PVP what they do is spam zone chat get people to join the PVP session where they have a a full team all running feedback pulse and they just sit there pop all they pet call ins and deplorable abilities which grinds the server to a halt and let people basically kill themselves with feedback pulse lol they then smack talk in zone chat about how good they are.... PVP is now almost dead on the PS4 thanks to these guys lol

    But my point is as you can see from my story above the system will be abused and it will not be due to exploits or anything it will just be because PVP is just broken...

    You will never be able to stop this. There's always these groups whose only desire in life is to 'pwn noob.' It's hard for me to understand the interest. Perhaps compensation. But that is foreign to me as well.

    I would not like to see them waste any time with pvp here. If they want to work on it for console only that's fine. That's where the interest for it lies anyway.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,960 Arc User
    The PvP mechanics aren't broken. Arena and Capture & Hold work just fine, as far as I know.

    The game balance is off. Fixing that is difficult, especially if Cryptic's power creep business model is to be preserved, and might not be worth the effort.

    As long as there are players happily (or grumpily, but still actively) playing PvP, there is no big pressure to remove it. No one can accidentally stumble into it and be totally lost, and the few maps there are also probably cost almost no disk space.

    A new map doesn't really mean PvP focus yet, but it's certainly considerably more attention than PvP ever had in 4-5 years.
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  • keladorkelador Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    The PvP mechanics aren't broken. Arena and Capture & Hold work just fine, as far as I know.

    The game balance is off. Fixing that is difficult, especially if Cryptic's power creep business model is to be preserved, and might not be worth the effort.

    As long as there are players happily (or grumpily, but still actively) playing PvP, there is no big pressure to remove it. No one can accidentally stumble into it and be totally lost, and the few maps there are also probably cost almost no disk space.

    A new map doesn't really mean PvP focus yet, but it's certainly considerably more attention than PvP ever had in 4-5 years.

    Yep which is why implementing some sort of restrictions on the powers and traits etc that can be used when in a PVP zone is the simplest way to balance PVP without effecting their power creep model.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,326 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    I generally dislike PvP in MMOs, but on the subject of rewards they should just create a new PvP only reputation using marks obtainable only in PvP matches, and rewarding gear that is only useful in PvP (ie shields that reduce damage from other players, weapons that crit more often against other players, etc)

    I don't mind the idea of having pvp-reputations in the game, though I would not want to see gear specific made for pvp itself. One reason is that that kind of gear can be more of a deterrent to players feeling they are competitive in pvp until getting that gear. Now having a pvp-oriented set of specializations could work to help balance things out. That would be something that a player could grind out, but would not make a specific set of gear kinda worthless if you are not in that content, merely making it that you might gain more spec exp for using in a pvp-specialization could be worth it. Also you could have the pvp-rep give traits that are more pvp oriented anyways to help that out.

    Using a system that has each pvp battle-zone has two or three sub-factions/reputation groups that you can ally with would not be a bad idea, as than you would not have the issue of faction (Ie fed/romulan/Kdf) imbalance to cause extremely long ques. So long as the system allowed you to join with any of the available factions/reputations of that pvp map, and that the system would lock-out access to a faction/reputation group that was too populated it would allow you to have more balanced matches.

    Definitely we would need a rebalance, and rework of a lot of the abilities in the game, though this is true in both a pve an pvp context. Personally as a player it would be nice to have them create method of having a dual-stat system for pve an pvp content, so than you would only change the pvp or pve stat value of an ability to balance it in that area of content. Though this is unlikely unless it is truly worth the time, resources, and effort to implement into the game; which I do not think it is right now from a dev's stand point.
  • kodachikunokodachikuno Member Posts: 6,020 Arc User1
    I hate pvpeen in general but DCUO did have an interesting idea in that it has PvE gear and PvP gear, and PvE gear means almost certain death in PvP and vice-versa. Given everyone has 2 loadouts per ship for free. the PvPeen'ers could slot one build of each and rock out their egos w/o worrying about the PvE mechanics/consoles/etc
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    Well if just one map is what the PvP'ers are getting then thats fair enough...

    Gotta throw them a bone every now and then after all.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,840 Arc User
    I hate pvpeen in general but DCUO did have an interesting idea in that it has PvE gear and PvP gear, and PvE gear means almost certain death in PvP and vice-versa. Given everyone has 2 loadouts per ship for free. the PvPeen'ers could slot one build of each and rock out their egos w/o worrying about the PvE mechanics/consoles/etc

    WoW used to have a similar mechanic in that PvP gear had a special stat on it that reduced the chances of being critically hit by other players, and PvPing without a significant amount of it was usually suicide
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    Should Cryptic ever decide to really focus on PVP (though it's doubtful), I don't care how they will do it, but as long they get more players in, then I'm game. Hate seeing the same smug players queue up or troll Ker'rat every time, all day, as if they don't have anything better to do. I could load up my ship with the latest vape gear off some cookiecutter reddit built, and do the same, but I find that lame and boring.

    Most other popular MMO's I'm playing right now have an OK PVP system/population, with ups and downs, but in comparison to the STO pvp, it's a vast ocean versus a dried out desert.

  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    I find it funny that OP can talk about a "toxic" community when their own post is probably the most toxic post I've seen in awhile, with nothing but crappy memes and casual dismissal of everyone who played PVP.

    I don't care about that - I care about facts. The woefully lacking population in PVP nowadays is very real, and part of that is to be blamed for broken balance mechanics, and part to the trolls that scare off new players with their 1-shot wonder builds. I'm not a new player, I can hold my own in a fight, but I simply know where the problems are coming from.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    I don't care about that - I care about facts. The woefully lacking population in PVP nowadays is very real, and part of that is to be blamed for broken balance mechanics, and part to the trolls that scare off new players with their 1-shot wonder builds. I'm not a new player, I can hold my own in a fight, but I simply know where the problems are coming from.
    I have heard this same complaint in basically every single MMORPG, and the problem is never the gear, or the abilities, or how fast you die, it is, always, without fail, the result of a small, but exceedingly vocal, group of people who can't stand the fact that they don't know how to build their character as well as other people, and thus die in PVP, which is all about how good your build is.

    Maybe, maybe not.

    When I was Cyrodiil last night in ESO with my team, wearing entirely custom PVE gear, and having a succesful blast in a largely populated PVP zone... I wondered... gee why is this game is so succesful and well populated?

    No, the point is that in pre-delta rising the pvp community was quite alive, but something went wrong when Cryptic's power creep policy went fast forward without adjusting it to pvp, and everyone knows that.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,960 Arc User
    kelador wrote: »
    The PvP mechanics aren't broken. Arena and Capture & Hold work just fine, as far as I know.

    The game balance is off. Fixing that is difficult, especially if Cryptic's power creep business model is to be preserved, and might not be worth the effort.

    As long as there are players happily (or grumpily, but still actively) playing PvP, there is no big pressure to remove it. No one can accidentally stumble into it and be totally lost, and the few maps there are also probably cost almost no disk space.

    A new map doesn't really mean PvP focus yet, but it's certainly considerably more attention than PvP ever had in 4-5 years.

    Yep which is why implementing some sort of restrictions on the powers and traits etc that can be used when in a PVP zone is the simplest way to balance PVP without effecting their power creep model.

    But that does affect the power creep model. Suddenly, people interested in PvP don't need to jump on the newest power creep, buy the newest stuff, get Dilithium and XP and what not. And a better balanced PvP means more people being interested in it - people that might pay less than they used to.

    There must be some monetization for PvP, and even if it's just that it doesn't cannibalize the rest of the game.

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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    tremere12 wrote: »
    When I was Cyrodiil last night in ESO with my team, wearing entirely custom PVE gear, and having a succesful blast in a largely populated PVP zone... I wondered... gee why is this game is so succesful and well populated?
    Hmmm, its not like The Elder Scrolls is one of the largest and most successful game series of all time that has been constantly hailed as one of the greatest since Morrowind came out back in 2002 or anything! Ohh wait... it has!

    Star Trek Online however has never been anywhere that successful. Star Trek games in general have never been that popular.
    tremere12 wrote: »
    No, the point is that in pre-delta rising the pvp community was quite alive, but something went wrong when Cryptic's power creep policy went fast forward without adjusting it to pvp, and everyone knows that.
    This is the biggest bold faced lie I gave seen all year so far.

    Pre-Delta Rising I recall literally the exact same complaints of people getting 1 shotted, and not being able to compete in PVP, and PVP being "dead" outside of a very small hardcore community.

    The level of revisionism you are going to really bespeaks of your level of honesty.

    I simply don't agree. I was there during the pre-delta days. There were many more players on, and yes there was some whining, but the fact remains there was a thing called population, and the fights were more fun overal too.
  • snix#6028 snix Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    kelador wrote: »
    Yeah I moved over to the PS4 the current state of PVP is it was very active at first and people that are new to the game their goal seems to be get to end game do PVP but when they get their they find out how bad it is and get griefed and then loose interest and either stay to work on their character with the hopes it will get balanced... yeah I laugh a lot when I see people saying in chat they its a new game it will get fixed...... But most people tend to leave as they have blown through the content and get bored with running STF's.

    It's a shame that rushing to end game is such a common mindset in MMO play, because the PvP in STO was always more enjoyable at the lower tiers; where maneuvering, core powers, and team work won the day over absurd gear and ship load outs.

    It would also be great to see a PvP game type that allowed for a mix of tiers on a team, to replicate what a fleet battles are like in the fiction. Different tiered players would have different task assignments, but their play would overlap on the battlefield.

    At this stage it would be very difficult to strip players of what they've already earned, but a PvP campaign addition (either a new story line, or a 'war stories' campaign from the height of the Fed/Klingon conflict) with fresh characters rising through the ranks (with new restrictions) could work.

    -snix
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