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Cryptic to focus on pvp?

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  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    -I said they cold make safe spaces in PVP like GECKO

    What do you mean by safe spaces?
    -You said that would mean no one would buy anything
    -I pointed out that the only people who would hide in the safe spaces are people who want to "play" PVP, but not deal with the whole "competitive" part of PVP, while the ACTUAL PVPers will be outside the safe zones killing each other, which would mean they would need better gear

    Err--okay... so you mean have two different types of PvP zones? One that is basically how things are now and another where all the traits, powers, ...etc are turned off?
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    I see this subject has come up again. Not that I mind. But if you look through the older posts from a couple months back. You'll see where we were tossing ideas, about what they could do with PvP.
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  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    What do you mean by safe spaces?

    Err--okay... so you mean have two different types of PvP zones? One that is basically how things are now and another where all the traits, powers, ...etc are turned off?
    As in
    -There is a PVP map
    -There is some objective you have to complete
    -Near your sides base is a safe zone where any enemy player that tires to get into it gets killed by automated NPC turrets or w/e
    -In this safe zone is stuff you can do to complete the objective
    -Between these safe zones is a free for all zones where both sides can actively fight each other in order to get more things to complete said objective.

    Ahh... okay I understand this zone concept better, but what I still don't understand is how this plays into removing console abilities, op traits, ..etc? You're saying in the safe zone nothing like that works, but outside the safe zone it all works the same as it does now?
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  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    I think in order to make PvP work again you would have to detach it from the rest of the game and make a complete overhaul.

    - define a fixed set of abilities as well as space and starship traits for PvP (and lock out most immunity and immortality traits)
    - create specialized space and ground sets
    - massively reduce graphic effects in order to improve FPS
    - create a system that teams up players of somewhat equal expericence and capability
    - introduce rewards for playing PvP matches

    Personally I would very much welcome more Kerrat style PvP zones. That's the only type of PvP I enjoy from time to time. But even though they claim to focus on PvP in the near future, I believe it when I see it. It wouldn't be the first time such intentions vanish into thin air.

    To the point of making specialized equipment sets...if could be like other games in that there is a whole parallel set of stats/equipment/etc, you earn the currency to buy them by partcipating in pvp, and you can't enter a pvp match with 'pve' stuff. This seperation would mean you can make dedicated builds for either, but that builds for one would not be effective for the other.

    Heck, make the pvp ability set something like a specialization, that boffs can be trained in and switch between. Ships with this new specialist seating, a crafting school to make pvp-specific gear if you've unlocked the recipes through pvp matches, personal trait loadouts so that you could have a different set for pvp (with only a subset of traits able to be slotted in this loadout tab, possibly even being drawn from a new pool).

    Tl:dr, I think the idea of seperating pvp off would be the best way to control balance for it, although the added workload from any new systems or parallel development makes change unlikely.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    Having a system where you have two or three types of maps that each have certain aspects to them could work, while that each map type has in someway a different level of payout based on what is different in it. Now this would or could divide up the player base in the pvp area. In this idea you could have different maps that had parts of the game disabled in it from powers to traits, while giving out higher rewards for players playing in the more risky areas. Also this would not get in the way of how cryptic makes money either.

    In the same vain you could make it that as said above you have different areas of the pvp zone that give out different marks or rewards based on what you are doing. Though I would say limit the rewards you can gain from the safe zone area that the player does not need to interact (or needs to interact vary little) with other players. For an example of what I mean if you use the concept of the rep mark system in that within the safe zone players could get only a small amount of dil an reg marks, while to get the much higher payout of marks an also dil you would need to go into at least the moderate part of the zone, and then in the free-for-all zone area you could get the largest payout of rewards as well as some elite marks for the best gear.
  • tobiashirttobiashirt Member Posts: 630 Arc User
    coolbatman wrote: »
    and it'll remove the "i have better gear" pay to win element and wouldn't that , at the end of the day , be a good thing ?
    No, as that would just burn everyone and anyone who has payed any amount of cash to get a better ship or w/e from wanting to play PVP.

    All that would do is drive off what few PVPers the game has left by telling them their cash doesn't matter, when it should.

    The two best ways to "fix" PVP would be to
    A. Work on GECKO's version of PVP, which is a more advanced and developed version of Ker'rat, where both the Fed/KDF can be on both teams, and have "safe zones" for those people who want to play PVP, but don't want to deal with the whole "competitive" aspect of PVP.

    B. Have the game parse your DPS at the end of every match, and break players up into tiers based on DPS, so 0-9k DPs are in one tier, 10-19 are in another, 20-29 in another, etc. etc. so that way only people of roughly equal DPS are playing together.

    How about k/d rather than dps? There are a ton of ways to kill other players that require a fraction of the dps people chase in pve. What about stuff like evade target lock, attack pattern lambda, etc that don't even deal damage but which can drastically affect whether or not you get killed? I just don't think straight-up dps would be a useful measure for segregating pvp.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    I could see it being that your effective dps (so what dps you did to a target to kill it disregarding the overkill amount), as well as your kill to death ratio, while also on maps with objectives having those objectives giving you a boost to your score would be nice. So than your final score for the map would be a combination of all three of these aspects, with the degree of contribution being different between them. like with the contribution spread of your score being 20% from your effective dps, 40% from your kill/death ratio, and 40% from your objective completion/interaction.
    Post edited by asuran14 on
  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    When I first started playing I decided to try PvP'n with an engie to see how well I could tank things in there. Didn't last long and I gave up on the place before Delta Rising hit. I never bothered going back since. Karrat wasn't a bad place but now and then it'd fill with vape teams and got boring getting camped at a spawn point or having nobody to fight much cause the vape team got em.

    I think I got in to one or two good fights with another cruiser before I just gave up looking for good PvP that wasn't insta-gib.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,238 Community Moderator
    Only PVP in STO is the forums. :D
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  • wendysue53wendysue53 Member Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    They're not working on PVP for STO. They're just tossing in another map - not fixing the problems. They still want to yank the whole thing, but it's too deeply embedded in the program.

    In order to really work on it, they'd have to assign someone to it. From what I've been able to find out, that hasn't happened. So the map may just be something someone did on the side. A Little bit of leftover work used to see how the player base reacts in-game.

    A few games I've worked on have done things like that. Testing the waters. Usually ends up with something that eventually gets forgotten later on and quietly removed.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    your crippling ignorance on this would be astonishing, except I suspect Geko's is worse.

    Ikr... but I have tried not to use the .msituA word here (go figure), because I've been banned already once, but darnit if some people aren't asking for it lol.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    patrickngo wrote: »
    tremere12 wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    your crippling ignorance on this would be astonishing, except I suspect Geko's is worse.

    Ikr... but I have tried not to use the .msituA word here (go figure), because I've been banned already once, but darnit if some people aren't asking for it lol.

    well, it's accurate though.

    DPS is the LEAST important aspect for PvP. in many ways it's largely irrelevant. what is more relevant tends to be the ability to apply disables, confuses, and resists. (and resist or clear the same.)

    Som is either trolling the forum, or honestly doesn't know because he doesn't honestly play it.

    Science, even when (briefly) it was totally worthless in PvE, was still dominant in PvP-and remains so.

    Let's not forget dat "good day to die" trait... I had to get one myself ofcourse, but still...

    DPS is definitely not everything, but regardless, the top players definitely pack a serious punch when you get hit by them. What one in PVP basically needs is a mixture of survivability, damage, speed (unless healer) and handful of exploitable tricks, and to a lesser degree, skillful reaction time.

    Crapload of disables, stackable immunities and near-irresistible shield pen mechanics such as temporal-physical damage (buff that on a tac, and watch people melt) is hot right now. The 'fast escort' type of builds (updated with the said mechanics and some new p2w gimmicks), have made a comeback, and they're worse then ever (believe it or not, they can even tank now - in a more abstract way). I believe the crowd favorite is the temporal T'liss now.

    I know this because I've queued quite a few times recently, even been into their (toxic) channels, and I was happy that I could tank a few of them, but my other teammates were decimated by the same lame TRIBBLE pre-made group.

    But you know what is also cheesy, that I forgot to mention? The Tier 3 Research lab combat buff. It shouldn't even be in the game.

    But regardless, it doesn't really matter now don't you think? If it doesn't make money, the devs will never bother fixing it all, and much more so, let alone something that cost more time and money than they would get in return.

    I've come to accept that this is a fed-flavored theme park game, with only two or three main groups: casuals, roleplayers and fanatic dps-parsers in ISA. PvP is just an accidental, minor feature, of which I'm now convinced that should be removed alltogether from the game when they find the way to do so. But whether they sever this abomination or not in the long run, that too doesn't matter too much to me anymore since I'm done with it.

    Peace out, and have a good one.
    Post edited by tremere12 on
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    It's not high dps that kills players in pvp. It's high burst damage that wins the day.
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  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    patrickngo wrote: »
    A: WRONG!!! there's been test-matches between PVP and DPS players. The DPS players tend to LOSE.
    reason being: stuns/disables/drains are far more important in PvP than mere DPS. Likewise for positioning. your typical DPS build is slow, relies on BFAW, and is a glass cannon. The typical PvP build tends to begin with faster chassis, since the PvP player is building to fight other players, it will have handling and turn rate, heals and resists.
    There is a reason that Science has been utterly dominant in PvP, but has only recently gotten second tier for PvE.

    B: We have those-it's the entire rest of the maps in the game (Outside the warzones and dedicated PvP queues)-it's all a safe zone, and offers BETTER rewards than PvP.

    your crippling ignorance on this would be astonishing, except I suspect Geko's is worse.
    A. and yet the DPSers are the ones sitting at the top of the PVP ladder because they do so much damage so fast no one else has time to get off their stuns. Just like every other MMO.

    B. No, the rest of the maps are nothing like that at all. Nothing outside the PVE queues are built around team objectives, and PVE queues are based on player VS AI scenarios, where you basically have no chance at loosing, while an active human enemy to play against the entire drive behind completing objectives changes.

    For one talking about ignorance, you seem to be full of it. But then again, conspiracy theorists usually are.
    tremere12 wrote: »
    because I've been banned already once,
    You are aware that evading a ban by making a new account is itself a bannable offense?

    I ain't "evading". I was temp-banned maybe a couple of weeks from this forum only, on this very account. If I had a dollar for every time you said something smart, how rich would I be?

    "Dps" in pvp can be interpreted in different ways, but I tend to agree with patrick that it's always accompanied by a crapload of ridiculous disables, buffs, debuffs (and adding to that again, 100% shield-pens AND hull-pens) and other types of monkey business. The point is ultimately not "dps vs. science", but anything that can be exploited and glitched vs other players. It's a common problem in most MMO's, but in STO it's a hundred times worse, and that is why no one is playing pvp.

    So If you want to be 'good' at pvp in STO, you have to be fully aware that Cryptic did not implement any form of balance whatsoever for PvP for years (and it's gotten only worse), and obviously neither did they ever care to do so. You'll have to do your research to find the most broken and overpowered set of abilities vs other players in the game, and fully build on it until something else that's even more absurd comes along, and repeat. Forget using "what you prefer", and what "looks nice" - use only what is the most broken. An obnoxious and puerile mentality for sure (especially if the entire pvp playerbase atm is no more than 30-40 players at best), but heck, everyone can play the game how they want as long as they aren't breaking any policy rules. Let the kidz have their little glitch-fest.

    I don't know if the top dpsers are also the top pvpers, but top dps in pve tells something about the dedication and wealth of a player. Nevertheless I can tell you they won't be using the same loadouts in pvp as in pve. They have a plethora of different traits, abilities, items, doffs and ships to choose from and switch to based on what the situation demands. Having said that, I also don't care for the silly and toxic "parse trek online" cult. Every now and then after I go for some omega marks I get a ninja invite to the dps channels, but I decline the invite every time. I play how *I* want.

    And don't even get me started on ground pvp.

    So I repeat once more that it will take a miracle for me to get back to pvp in this game. And the upcoming release of that new map almost sounds like an April fools joke.
    Post edited by tremere12 on
  • lindalefflindaleff Member Posts: 3,734 Arc User
    I supported the first time Cryptic speculated removing PvP, and I will continue to do so.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    lindaleff wrote: »
    I supported the first time Cryptic speculated removing PvP, and I will continue to do so.

    Considering how fast this thread went downhill I tend to agree man. The whole DPSer vs. PvPer discussion stinks.
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  • talientalien Member Posts: 712 Arc User
    All pvp needs is a vanilla mode, that way people can choose between the current hot mess and something that's actually workable for the average player.

    No rep/R&D traits, no lockbox anything (traits, boff abilities, kit modules, etc), no click ability consoles, no doffs. Just common quality gear, starting traits, and commonly available boff abilities. One step further, give us a separate loadout slot just for pvp and it's all good.
  • tremere12tremere12 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    talien wrote: »
    All pvp needs is a vanilla mode, that way people can choose between the current hot mess and something that's actually workable for the average player.

    No rep/R&D traits, no lockbox anything (traits, boff abilities, kit modules, etc), no click ability consoles, no doffs. Just common quality gear, starting traits, and commonly available boff abilities. One step further, give us a separate loadout slot just for pvp and it's all good.

    Except, where is the competitive fun in that? Beer without alcohol. I'd rather that pvp is just removed and be done with it.
  • carcosa#4225 carcosa Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    Haven't read this entire thread, but I am a little new to the game (been playing for several months) and my friends and I do pvp and have fun. None of us are really whacked out top of the line builds, just casual players and we have fun with pvp.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    kelador wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    ^^ finally someone who gets it. FBP, Immunities, and the Invincible trait are hardly the main problems in PvP anymore. It's the over the top damage that bypasses shields and hull resists. One of the main reasons people don't PvP anymore is because they just die in 2 seconds and don't know why. It's more about that then the rewards, since a lot of people play PvP to have fun, not for the rewards (primarily).
    Nobody plays PvP for rewards, because the rewards suck.

    If the rewards were good, the PvP queues would be stocked full of players who wouldn't care one bit if they die in 2 seconds as long as they get paid in the end.

    This is probably the only reasonable solution I've seen in this thread.

    If they do this they might as well make an NPC shooting gallery that give out the same rewards as this does nothing for PVP.
    It gets people to play PvP. People who actually want to play Star Trek Online.

    As opposed to people who want to "detach it from the rest of the game" and turn it into a "vanilla" shooter playground to "play PvP to have fun" without having to buy or earn any of those nasty STO things or suffer others using theirs. Which is really just saying they want to play some other game.
  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,253 Arc User
    Only PVP in STO is the forums. :D

    Very true!

    I still do hope PvPs do return in some fashion...wishful thinking.
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  • wendysue53wendysue53 Member Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    Haven't read this entire thread, but I am a little new to the game (been playing for several months) and my friends and I do pvp and have fun. None of us are really whacked out top of the line builds, just casual players and we have fun with pvp.
    you won't see the real issues with pvp, and there are three types in sto, until you get up to endgame levels. the gaps in players there is significant due to unique gear, etc.
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