Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.
It is enshrined in the canon.
you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?
Actually it was Nog centric and ended up being much more positive about how economics can work.
As a side note. How does the post picture function? Do I need a URL to put in there or drag and drop from my computer?
When you got a bunch of Rothschild and big oil wannabes out there, looking to get rich, and getting kicks from **** over as many people as possible, I don't see it as good.
I'll take whatever the Federation has anything over Ferengi-nomics.
That episode had Chief O'Brian stuck where he was going to get reamed by Sisko for failing to have parts he needed. And nothing O'Brian could do would save him. Federation economics.
Nog borrows Sisko's desk, Martok's blood wine, and a few other things. It looks terrible but he asks O'Brian to have a little faith. In the end Sisko's desk is back, Martok has better bloodwine, and they have the parts they need. By applying Ferengi philosophy to a Federation problem. I believe the message was that in moderation the process can work. Done poorly and you have what the rest of the Ferengi became.
(I meant it when I was asking for help.)
But then again, the Klingon could have just replicated the blood wine. Ferenginomics sorta falls apart with the advent of replicators.
Yep, when you can manifest something from a device like a replicator, why need old fashioned styled economics based on scarcity?
And I am curious, who did Nog have to bribe/kill/sleep with to get some of that stuff?
I'm picturing Nog, at the end that little escapade, rubbing his behind, grimacing.
This is the last comment offically made about star trek canon.
"As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide. Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry was accustomed to making statements about canon, but even he was known to change his mind.
In the publishing world, there used to be two exceptions to the novel rule: the Jeri Taylor-penned books 'Mosaic' and 'Pathways.' Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters and were to be considered as references by writers on the show. Now that the show is over, some of those events may never be incorporated into a live action format, so the question of whether details from these novels remain canon is open to interpretation.
With regard to the Animated Series, there are a few details from the episode 'Yesteryear,' written by D.C. Fontana, that reveal biographical background on Spock and planet Vulcan. Details from this episode have been successfully incorporated into the canon of Star Trek (such as in 'The Forge') and now that the Animated Series is out on DVD, we hope that even more can make its way in!"
Nowehere does it say that if you see it it's true. It says the EVENTS happened...not every microscopic details...even if they conflict makes it true. Those details are up to the IP holder to figure out...not YOU. Not only that, but they use the term rule of thumb...which means once again they can still do what the hell they want. Note that this was only listed until 2010. After that, there is no offical written details of what is canon...but that means it defaults to the base definition of canon...which is the IP holder can do what the hell they want. So yeah, you if you see it, it's true ain't true anymore. And the IP holder said the JJprise is this big...so it is. Deal.
I almost missed this post because of people hijacking my size bitching for some TRIBBLE about starships economics or somesuch.
Now, what you quoted (which is nameless and sourceless by an accidental oversight I assume) is identical to the one I keep posting with the exception of saying that canon can change, not that they have. The bit about novels is a red herring as they were never considered canon o anybody except Jerri Taylor as B&B had a policy of acting as though she didn't exist when it came to them writing for VOY. The bit about TAS is also meaningless as it's a TV show and was canon under the policy I keep posting and they only reason it was believed to not be was because Gene rejected it. However Gene also rejected all ST films after III and objected to DS9.
So, as before, until they change their policy (which this post does not indicate has happened) licensed/official sizes listed on non-canon material are invalidated by canon material.
You're right, that's not my decision, it's the IP holders decision.
The 'official' size of the KonsTitution only appears on non-canon material and as such is as canon as James T Kirk being resurrected, which is also 100% official and licensed by the IP holder and jet still non-canon. That's the long and short of it.
Edit: The Kirk thing also kinda explains what is meant in your quote about changing canon, that elements from non-canon material can make its way into canon in the same way some elements from Taylor's books did.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
This is the last comment offically made about star trek canon.
"As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide. Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry was accustomed to making statements about canon, but even he was known to change his mind.
In the publishing world, there used to be two exceptions to the novel rule: the Jeri Taylor-penned books 'Mosaic' and 'Pathways.' Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters and were to be considered as references by writers on the show. Now that the show is over, some of those events may never be incorporated into a live action format, so the question of whether details from these novels remain canon is open to interpretation.
With regard to the Animated Series, there are a few details from the episode 'Yesteryear,' written by D.C. Fontana, that reveal biographical background on Spock and planet Vulcan. Details from this episode have been successfully incorporated into the canon of Star Trek (such as in 'The Forge') and now that the Animated Series is out on DVD, we hope that even more can make its way in!"
Nowehere does it say that if you see it it's true. It says the EVENTS happened...not every microscopic details...even if they conflict makes it true. Those details are up to the IP holder to figure out...not YOU. Not only that, but they use the term rule of thumb...which means once again they can still do what the hell they want. Note that this was only listed until 2010. After that, there is no offical written details of what is canon...but that means it defaults to the base definition of canon...which is the IP holder can do what the hell they want. So yeah, you if you see it, it's true ain't true anymore. And the IP holder said the JJprise is this big...so it is. Deal.
I almost missed this post because of people hijacking my size bitching for some **** about starships economics or somesuch.
Now, what you quoted (which is nameless and sourceless by an accidental oversight I assume) is identical to the one I keep posting with the exception of saying that canon can change, not that they have. The bit about novels is a red herring as they were never considered canon o anybody except Jerri Taylor as B&B had a policy of acting as though she didn't exist when it came to them writing for VOY. The bit about TAS is also meaningless as it's a TV show and was canon under the policy I keep posting and they only reason it was believed to not be was because Gene rejected it. However Gene also rejected all ST films after III and objected to DS9.
So, as before, until they change their policy (which this post does not indicate has happened) licensed/official sizes listed on non-canon material are invalidated by canon material.
You're right, that's not my decision, it's the IP holders decision.
The 'official' size of the KonsTitution only appears on non-canon material and as such is as canon as James T Kirk being resurrected, which is also 100% official and licensed by the IP holder and jet still non-canon. That's the long and short of it.
Edit: The Kirk thing also kinda explains what is meant in your quote about changing canon, that elements from non-canon material can make its way into canon in the same way some elements from Taylor's books did.
regarding the Kelvin Constitution, I think the bridge section/dome would need to be shrunken a bit to match other ships...because that bridge section, now, looks as big as a house. o.O
regarding the Kelvin Constitution, I think the bridge section/dome would need to be shrunken a bit to match other ships...because that bridge section, now, looks as big as a house. o.O
I can't quite tell what you mean. Do you live in a caravan, because that's not a particularly large bridge section. Unlike with the upscaled saucer the bridge was never touched, it's always remained that small.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
regarding the Kelvin Constitution, I think the bridge section/dome would need to be shrunken a bit to match other ships...because that bridge section, now, looks as big as a house. o.O
I can't quite tell what you mean. Do you live in a caravan, because that's not a particularly large bridge section. Unlike with the upscaled saucer the bridge was never touched, it's always remained that small.
I mean the game model, that big dome thing that houses the bridge...the 'blister' on top of the saucer, I mean.
I got a Kelvin Constitution 3D model on Daz, and it's pretty much the same size of the TOS/TMP ship, I blew it up to the 'proper' film scale, and the 'blister' on the saucer is humongous, same in game, I think it might need to be scaled down a bit, to fit proportions, especially when taking into considering the size of the bridge inside. o,o
regarding the Kelvin Constitution, I think the bridge section/dome would need to be shrunken a bit to match other ships...because that bridge section, now, looks as big as a house. o.O
I can't quite tell what you mean. Do you live in a caravan, because that's not a particularly large bridge section. Unlike with the upscaled saucer the bridge was never touched, it's always remained that small.
I mean the game model, that big dome thing that houses the bridge...the 'blister' on top of the saucer, I mean.
I got a Kelvin Constitution 3D model on Daz, and it's pretty much the same size of the TOS/TMP ship, I blew it up to the 'proper' film scale, and the 'blister' on the saucer is humongous, same in game, I think it might need to be scaled down a bit, to fit proportions, especially when taking into considering the size of the bridge inside. o,o
The problem that some seem to be missing is that, as you said, the details of the ship including things we have a direct frame of reference for are scaled properly for a ship under 400 meters in length. Somewhere along the line someone decided they wanted the ship to be nearly double in size, and they didn't alter the design details nor re-film any scenes such as the one you showed with the bridge window or others with Spock standing by windows that would reveal proper scale. None of those proportions make sense at the larger scale.
On the other hand, the shuttlebay is way too large and the brewery and other engineering location shots are vastly oversized for even the double sized ship. So, the whole thing could kinda qualify as a fustercluck.
I still say it makes far more sense at the size the original designer intended.
Shrink the blister on the saucer, and it will fix a lot, for me, anyhow.
Pity they finally made that ship look nice in the film they destroy it in. X_x
Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.
It is enshrined in the canon.
you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?
It was pretty basic supply/demand stuff.
People traded what they had for something else that they wanted more.
In the end everyone got what he wanted.
Except you can't have a trade based economy when you have virtually unlimited supply at the push of a button. A replicator is the endgame for capitalism as we know it.
If that were the case in star trek then there couldnt be ferengi and all that we know about them could there.
There were episodes which stated that some commodities can't be replicated (Latinum being one such item, which was stated as it's primary reason for being so valuable).
It would make sense that the Ferengi economy revolves around those items that can't be replicated (or easily obtained).
Plus I am sure a few shady things went about to ensure status quo.....artificially created, and maintained/enforced status quos happen all the time in our world, especially when it involves money/power....and they are never well meant for the masses, just the select few who created them.
Anyhow, if you see a Constitution with cherry red trim, feel free to say hi, since it's most likely me.
Star Trek admitted its mistakes about the economy in DS9 when they had the episode about the Great Material Continuum and established Ferengi-style trade economics as superior leading to better outcomes.
It is enshrined in the canon.
you mean dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, swindle or be swindled way of thinking?
It was pretty basic supply/demand stuff.
People traded what they had for something else that they wanted more.
In the end everyone got what he wanted.
Except you can't have a trade based economy when you have virtually unlimited supply at the push of a button. A replicator is the endgame for capitalism as we know it.
If that were the case in star trek then there couldnt be ferengi and all that we know about them could there.
There were episodes which stated that some commodities can't be replicated (Latinum being one such item, which was stated as it's primary reason for being so valuable).
It would make sense that the Ferengi economy revolves around those items that can't be replicated (or easily obtained).
Plus I am sure a few shady things went about to ensure status quo.....artificially created, and maintained/enforced status quos happen all the time in our world, especially when it involves money/power....and they are never well meant for the masses, just the select few who created them.
Anyhow, if you see a Constitution with cherry red trim, feel free to say hi, since it's most likely me.
And if you see a Rhode Island refit Nova with the Aegis shield visuals active feel free to say hi. Whilst I wave my fist in jealousy at your shiny T6 Light Cruiser!
I mean the game model, that big dome thing that houses the bridge...the 'blister' on top of the saucer, I mean.
I got a Kelvin Constitution 3D model on Daz, and it's pretty much the same size of the TOS/TMP ship, I blew it up to the 'proper' film scale, and the 'blister' on the saucer is humongous, same in game, I think it might need to be scaled down a bit, to fit proportions, especially when taking into considering the size of the bridge inside. o,o
Like it's mentioned bellow they don't exactly rescale the ship in the film, just added elements. For instance, when Kirk and Chekhov are falling out of the crashed saucer in BEY the saucer is huge but all the details painted on it including the window they jumped out of are small. It's more like the characters are halved rather than the ship doubled.
The only time components were scaled up were in two scenes I can remeber, the shuttlebay scene in 09 where it grew an extra deck and a shot in BEY of the saucer rim where it appears there are four decks in the saucer. These don't appear to be changes to the model but rather new models (most likely only consisting of those single parts) as the shuttlebay is back down to one deck when Pike leaves and the saucer is back to two decks prior to its separation.
The problem that some seem to be missing is that, as you said, the details of the ship including things we have a direct frame of reference for are scaled properly for a ship under 400 meters in length. Somewhere along the line someone decided they wanted the ship to be nearly double in size, and they didn't alter the design details nor re-film any scenes such as the one you showed with the bridge window or others with Spock standing by windows that would reveal proper scale. None of those proportions make sense at the larger scale.
Not only did they not refilm but they also made at least three separate models of the ships across the first two films with the two in ID having being built after the supposed size increase yet all the details including the bridge are still those of the smaller ship.
The refit from BEY may be actually a bigger ship this time. But we see its construction in depth so it would be possible to get an accurate size of that.
On the other hand, the shuttlebay is way too large and the brewery and other engineering location shots are vastly oversized for even the double sized ship. So, the whole thing could kinda qualify as a fustercluck.
Oh yeah, it's a long and proud tradition of Star Trek. The Intrepid cannot hold all of Voyagers shuttles even if the shuttlebay covered the entire engineering hull. The engine room and shuttlebay from TMP cannot fit into that ship, the Defiant cannot be big enough for it's shuttlebay. The HMS Bounty has been shown as smaller than the whales it was supposed to carry, and Turbine Control is far too wide for even a Galaxy sized KonsTitution and you certainly cannot fit in Turbine Control, the cavernous warp core, and the two deck shuttlebay in any Starfleet vessel short of the Dreadnought.
The main 'fustercluck' is the massive changes in scale within the single film. From it's actual size, to a dwarf (when it almost crashes with the ~200m Mayflower saucer), to a Galaxy sized ship, to an impossible sized one.
But we've been there before with the HMS Bounty and its magically rearranging bridge.
I still say it makes far more sense at the size the original designer intended.
It does. I avoid the argument of making sense as it's Star Trek (hence why I don't bother with most of the EX Astra arguments despite vapid insinuations to the contrary) but as far as canon goes, the ship changes size but it is mostly scaled to the size we see it, and no amount of non-canon material can overrule onscreen material so the more commonly seen size of ~360m prevails.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I mean the game model, that big dome thing that houses the bridge...the 'blister' on top of the saucer, I mean.
I got a Kelvin Constitution 3D model on Daz, and it's pretty much the same size of the TOS/TMP ship, I blew it up to the 'proper' film scale, and the 'blister' on the saucer is humongous, same in game, I think it might need to be scaled down a bit, to fit proportions, especially when taking into considering the size of the bridge inside. o,o
Like it's mentioned bellow they don't exactly rescale the ship in the film, just added elements. For instance, when Kirk and Chekhov are falling out of the crashed saucer in BEY the saucer is huge but all the details painted on it including the window they jumped out of are small. It's more like the characters are halved rather than the ship doubled.
The only time components were scaled up were in two scenes I can remeber, the shuttlebay scene in 09 where it grew an extra deck and a shot in BEY of the saucer rim where it appears there are four decks in the saucer. These don't appear to be changes to the model but rather new models (most likely only consisting of those single parts) as the shuttlebay is back down to one deck when Pike leaves and the saucer is back to two decks prior to its separation.
The problem that some seem to be missing is that, as you said, the details of the ship including things we have a direct frame of reference for are scaled properly for a ship under 400 meters in length. Somewhere along the line someone decided they wanted the ship to be nearly double in size, and they didn't alter the design details nor re-film any scenes such as the one you showed with the bridge window or others with Spock standing by windows that would reveal proper scale. None of those proportions make sense at the larger scale.
Not only did they not refilm but they also made at least three separate models of the ships across the first two films with the two in ID having being built after the supposed size increase yet all the details including the bridge are still those of the smaller ship.
The refit from BEY may be actually a bigger ship this time. But we see its construction in depth so it would be possible to get an accurate size of that.
On the other hand, the shuttlebay is way too large and the brewery and other engineering location shots are vastly oversized for even the double sized ship. So, the whole thing could kinda qualify as a fustercluck.
Oh yeah, it's a long and proud tradition of Star Trek. The Intrepid cannot hold all of Voyagers shuttles even if the shuttlebay covered the entire engineering hull. The engine room and shuttlebay from TMP cannot fit into that ship, the Defiant cannot be big enough for it's shuttlebay. The HMS Bounty has been shown as smaller than the whales it was supposed to carry, and Turbine Control is far too wide for even a Galaxy sized KonsTitution and you certainly cannot fit in Turbine Control, the cavernous warp core, and the two deck shuttlebay in any Starfleet vessel short of the Dreadnought.
The main 'fustercluck' is the massive changes in scale within the single film. From it's actual size, to a dwarf (when it almost crashes with the ~200m Mayflower saucer), to a Galaxy sized ship, to an impossible sized one.
But we've been there before with the HMS Bounty and its magically rearranging bridge.
I still say it makes far more sense at the size the original designer intended.
It does. I avoid the argument of making sense as it's Star Trek (hence why I don't bother with most of the EX Astra arguments despite vapid insinuations to the contrary) but as far as canon goes, the ship changes size but it is mostly scaled to the size we see it, and no amount of non-canon material can overrule onscreen material so the more commonly seen size of ~360m prevails.
Like the designer of Kelvin Enterprise-A said, "Americans are not known for subtlety".
Oh my another Thread where the neverending dialog is about the ship size.
Will it never end?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Just cause I'm in the mood to stir the pot a bit, here's the "professional", non-boter cost to produce a ship from those packs. I'm not up on all the latest numbers for things so I've made some assumptions. I've also low and highballed some things to make it worse as professionals will time things and make some deals to drive down their costs.
Odds are 1/100 (for a ship, not necessarily THE ship), a dil-2-zen exchange rate of 350, contraband @ 35k each, promo packs are 4 for 1000 non sale price, lobi ship is bought and sold for only 150m and the R&D packs are sold for only 2m each. This doesn't take into account the cost (can be 0 -> 10,650 max zen (326m EC)) to setup or what someone thinks their time is worth to get it setup and then to run.
If the professional buys the packs on sale (last event did not have a sale but most do), then the cost ends up only being 262.5m
Over 90 days this requires 48 toons. Depending on your computer and internet (or if you use more than 1), the time to perform a turn in can vary a lot. If it's 30 seconds, that's 24 minutes a day, 36 hours total. How much EC is that worth?
As a side note, using the same numbers and system to buy lockbox keys, the cost per 10 pack key is 3.45m (2.93m when bought during the 15% sales)
"Technically", the really smart professionals will sell the 100 promo packs to the gamblers once the price goes up a couple months or so after the event is over or if the price hits a "high enough" price during the event. They'll also follow the pack price over the first few days and when the desperate drive the price down, they'll buy packs for EC at reasonably low prices in order to make even more when the price goes up.
So smart professionals sells the packs:
100 * 25m (can sometimes be 30m) = 2.5b
2.5b - 765.7m = 1.734b profit.
If they want, they could buy a 1.2b ship from the gamblers and still end up with a 534m profit, more than enough to "pay" the ship cost for the next round.
Sadly, the price these things go for is more a result of the fact that people are willing to pay very high prices and that some of the gamblers are paying a premium for the packs they open. And of course other things like the contraband turn in nerf that means that the same system that used to be able to put 3-4 ships on the market can only do 1 now. Less supply, thus higher prices.
As I said, I'm not up on all the latest numbers so I could be off somewhat, but what I've outlined is pretty accurate. It also doesn't take into account all of the back room deals that can take place or any other efficiencies etc.
I would't worry about that diagram. It's directly contradicted by the cutaways we see in BEY and ID. It's also not an accurate reproduction of what the warp core or turbine control looked like in the film.
It's all down to the bridge and the shuttlebay. You cannot get the 2 deck shuttlebay to fit into the smaller ship or the bridge to make any sense (unless you're MC Essher) on the larger ship. As the shuttlebay is almost always closed and also occasionally comes in a single decked form, just go with the size that means you don't need to alter the proportions.
The engine room and shuttlebay from TMP cannot fit into that ship
I believe you're mistaken. I had Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise and it clearly shows properly scaled blueprints for where those things are in the ship. I know it's not considered canon anymore, but it does show how what we saw on screen could fit into the stated dimensions.
Do you have a scan or picture of that specific area? Because I'm struggling to see it working.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
If the professional buys the packs on sale (last event did not have a sale but most do), then the cost ends up only being 262.5m
Good maths, but you ignore the time" said individual has to spend in accruing the funds. 4375 contraband turn-ins is 87 days with 50 alts - that's a massive investment of time and effort. Which is why most people don't do it.
I've been scraping together 750M EC for the probable T6 NX - one of my must have ships - and it's pretty well been the core of my game time since the images leaked. Pulling together big EC numbers takes time.
If the professional buys the packs on sale (last event did not have a sale but most do), then the cost ends up only being 262.5m
Good maths, but you ignore the time" said individual has to spend in accruing the funds. 4375 contraband turn-ins is 87 days with 50 alts - that's a massive investment of time and effort. Which is why most people don't do it.
I've been scraping together 750M EC for the probable T6 NX - one of my must have ships - and it's pretty well been the core of my game time since the images leaked. Pulling together big EC numbers takes time.
Seriously? Did you not read the paragraph right after that where I said
Over 90 days this requires 48 toons. Depending on your computer and internet (or if you use more than 1), the time to perform a turn in can vary a lot. If it's 30 seconds, that's 24 minutes a day, 36 hours total. How much EC is that worth?
From experience actually generating dil this way, I know exactly how much time it really takes, the costs involved etc.
Comments
Yep, when you can manifest something from a device like a replicator, why need old fashioned styled economics based on scarcity?
And I am curious, who did Nog have to bribe/kill/sleep with to get some of that stuff?
I'm picturing Nog, at the end that little escapade, rubbing his behind, grimacing.
I almost missed this post because of people hijacking my size bitching for some TRIBBLE about starships economics or somesuch.
Now, what you quoted (which is nameless and sourceless by an accidental oversight I assume) is identical to the one I keep posting with the exception of saying that canon can change, not that they have. The bit about novels is a red herring as they were never considered canon o anybody except Jerri Taylor as B&B had a policy of acting as though she didn't exist when it came to them writing for VOY. The bit about TAS is also meaningless as it's a TV show and was canon under the policy I keep posting and they only reason it was believed to not be was because Gene rejected it. However Gene also rejected all ST films after III and objected to DS9.
So, as before, until they change their policy (which this post does not indicate has happened) licensed/official sizes listed on non-canon material are invalidated by canon material.
You're right, that's not my decision, it's the IP holders decision.
The 'official' size of the KonsTitution only appears on non-canon material and as such is as canon as James T Kirk being resurrected, which is also 100% official and licensed by the IP holder and jet still non-canon. That's the long and short of it.
Edit: The Kirk thing also kinda explains what is meant in your quote about changing canon, that elements from non-canon material can make its way into canon in the same way some elements from Taylor's books did.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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regarding the Kelvin Constitution, I think the bridge section/dome would need to be shrunken a bit to match other ships...because that bridge section, now, looks as big as a house. o.O
@smokebailey
I can't quite tell what you mean. Do you live in a caravan, because that's not a particularly large bridge section. Unlike with the upscaled saucer the bridge was never touched, it's always remained that small.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I mean the game model, that big dome thing that houses the bridge...the 'blister' on top of the saucer, I mean.
I got a Kelvin Constitution 3D model on Daz, and it's pretty much the same size of the TOS/TMP ship, I blew it up to the 'proper' film scale, and the 'blister' on the saucer is humongous, same in game, I think it might need to be scaled down a bit, to fit proportions, especially when taking into considering the size of the bridge inside. o,o
Shrink the blister on the saucer, and it will fix a lot, for me, anyhow.
Pity they finally made that ship look nice in the film they destroy it in. X_x
Plus I am sure a few shady things went about to ensure status quo.....artificially created, and maintained/enforced status quos happen all the time in our world, especially when it involves money/power....and they are never well meant for the masses, just the select few who created them.
Anyhow, if you see a Constitution with cherry red trim, feel free to say hi, since it's most likely me.
Like it's mentioned bellow they don't exactly rescale the ship in the film, just added elements. For instance, when Kirk and Chekhov are falling out of the crashed saucer in BEY the saucer is huge but all the details painted on it including the window they jumped out of are small. It's more like the characters are halved rather than the ship doubled.
The only time components were scaled up were in two scenes I can remeber, the shuttlebay scene in 09 where it grew an extra deck and a shot in BEY of the saucer rim where it appears there are four decks in the saucer. These don't appear to be changes to the model but rather new models (most likely only consisting of those single parts) as the shuttlebay is back down to one deck when Pike leaves and the saucer is back to two decks prior to its separation.
Not only did they not refilm but they also made at least three separate models of the ships across the first two films with the two in ID having being built after the supposed size increase yet all the details including the bridge are still those of the smaller ship.
The refit from BEY may be actually a bigger ship this time. But we see its construction in depth so it would be possible to get an accurate size of that.
Oh yeah, it's a long and proud tradition of Star Trek. The Intrepid cannot hold all of Voyagers shuttles even if the shuttlebay covered the entire engineering hull. The engine room and shuttlebay from TMP cannot fit into that ship, the Defiant cannot be big enough for it's shuttlebay. The HMS Bounty has been shown as smaller than the whales it was supposed to carry, and Turbine Control is far too wide for even a Galaxy sized KonsTitution and you certainly cannot fit in Turbine Control, the cavernous warp core, and the two deck shuttlebay in any Starfleet vessel short of the Dreadnought.
The main 'fustercluck' is the massive changes in scale within the single film. From it's actual size, to a dwarf (when it almost crashes with the ~200m Mayflower saucer), to a Galaxy sized ship, to an impossible sized one.
But we've been there before with the HMS Bounty and its magically rearranging bridge.
It does. I avoid the argument of making sense as it's Star Trek (hence why I don't bother with most of the EX Astra arguments despite vapid insinuations to the contrary) but as far as canon goes, the ship changes size but it is mostly scaled to the size we see it, and no amount of non-canon material can overrule onscreen material so the more commonly seen size of ~360m prevails.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Like the designer of Kelvin Enterprise-A said, "Americans are not known for subtlety".
Will it never end?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The bridge is a small bit under them on the Konnie.
http://pop.h-cdn.co/assets/16/25/2048x1152/hd-aspect-1466802561-pmx070116startrek-lo.jpg
Odds are 1/100 (for a ship, not necessarily THE ship), a dil-2-zen exchange rate of 350, contraband @ 35k each, promo packs are 4 for 1000 non sale price, lobi ship is bought and sold for only 150m and the R&D packs are sold for only 2m each. This doesn't take into account the cost (can be 0 -> 10,650 max zen (326m EC)) to setup or what someone thinks their time is worth to get it setup and then to run.
100 packs * 250 = 25,000 zen
25,000 zen * 350 = 8,750,000 dil
8,750,000 / 2,000 = 4,375 contra turn-ins
4,375 * 5 = 21,875 contraband
21,875 * 35k = 765.7m (7.657m/pack)
765.7m - 150m - 200m = 415.7m "cost"
If the professional buys the packs on sale (last event did not have a sale but most do), then the cost ends up only being 262.5m
Over 90 days this requires 48 toons. Depending on your computer and internet (or if you use more than 1), the time to perform a turn in can vary a lot. If it's 30 seconds, that's 24 minutes a day, 36 hours total. How much EC is that worth?
As a side note, using the same numbers and system to buy lockbox keys, the cost per 10 pack key is 3.45m (2.93m when bought during the 15% sales)
"Technically", the really smart professionals will sell the 100 promo packs to the gamblers once the price goes up a couple months or so after the event is over or if the price hits a "high enough" price during the event. They'll also follow the pack price over the first few days and when the desperate drive the price down, they'll buy packs for EC at reasonably low prices in order to make even more when the price goes up.
So smart professionals sells the packs:
100 * 25m (can sometimes be 30m) = 2.5b
2.5b - 765.7m = 1.734b profit.
If they want, they could buy a 1.2b ship from the gamblers and still end up with a 534m profit, more than enough to "pay" the ship cost for the next round.
Sadly, the price these things go for is more a result of the fact that people are willing to pay very high prices and that some of the gamblers are paying a premium for the packs they open. And of course other things like the contraband turn in nerf that means that the same system that used to be able to put 3-4 ships on the market can only do 1 now. Less supply, thus higher prices.
As I said, I'm not up on all the latest numbers so I could be off somewhat, but what I've outlined is pretty accurate. It also doesn't take into account all of the back room deals that can take place or any other efficiencies etc.
Take it all how you will.
I meant the entire dome.
I would't worry about that diagram. It's directly contradicted by the cutaways we see in BEY and ID. It's also not an accurate reproduction of what the warp core or turbine control looked like in the film.
It's all down to the bridge and the shuttlebay. You cannot get the 2 deck shuttlebay to fit into the smaller ship or the bridge to make any sense (unless you're MC Essher) on the larger ship. As the shuttlebay is almost always closed and also occasionally comes in a single decked form, just go with the size that means you don't need to alter the proportions.
Do you have a scan or picture of that specific area? Because I'm struggling to see it working.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Good maths, but you ignore the time" said individual has to spend in accruing the funds. 4375 contraband turn-ins is 87 days with 50 alts - that's a massive investment of time and effort. Which is why most people don't do it.
I've been scraping together 750M EC for the probable T6 NX - one of my must have ships - and it's pretty well been the core of my game time since the images leaked. Pulling together big EC numbers takes time.
Seriously? Did you not read the paragraph right after that where I said From experience actually generating dil this way, I know exactly how much time it really takes, the costs involved etc.