Lastly, if box sellers are actually losing 350 million per ship- they are to say the least... less than intelligent. So no, that's not what is happening. Druk's numbers are hiding reality, not revealing it.
Don't be silly.
The reality of the situation is a whole lot of STO folks happily pay a whole lot more space cash for the experience of high-stakes space gambling than they can expect to get back by selling the stuff they get from the gambleboxes. Whenever the price of a gamblebox becomes unbalanced and it becomes more profitable to open them than to sell them, someone comes along, buys them all, and consumes them until their market price no longer makes them more profitable to open than to sell. After that, the constant stream of random "lucky" folks, who give it the old college try, has a way of keeping the price just above what the "average joe" can really expect to get back from them, if they were to open them in bulk.
I think smokebailey has a point. You can cite "supply and demand" all you like, and I'll point out something else. It's called a speculator bubble. I think the lack of them seen in game is pretty strong evidence that people aren't using these for their intended purpose (aka playing them) but instead as some misguided attempt at an investment. In a speculator bubble, demand is artificially inflated by the idea that the price will continue to increase, hoarders and investors buy them with the intention of selling later for profit, and the market is distorted. It becomes incestuous and cannibalistic, and there inevitably comes a point where you have a bunch of sellers looking to cash in and no buyers because everyone left in the market has them to sell as well with the same idea of making money off of it. Those looking to liquidate their investment discover that they can't, the bubble bursts, and the investors are stuck with merchandise they can't move at all or that they can't sell for anywhere near what they put into it.
This has all the signs of such a bubble. The players who want this ship for it's actual intended purpose have been priced out of the market and the only people buying and selling this thing are investors / speculators who are buying with intent to sell. Speculators alone cannot form a functioning customer base, the people who would buy them to use them have dropped out of the market. Those who continue to trade them are just swapping them among themselves at ever increasing prices, and that is unsustainable. When they try to cash in, they'll find they can't. The bubble will burst, and those holding them will find they cannot move them without taking a significant loss.
Have fun with that. I'll wait for mine until the price comes down to a sane level. And I'll fly the damned thing, because it's a game piece meant to be used to play the game with. And the tears of the speculators will be delicious.
So I'm a comic artist. And I've been a collector since I was a very small kid. And I worked at a comic book shop in college. Two friends owned their own shops. My best friend managed one of those shops. And I even interned at Valiant Comics in the 1990s. It's an industry and a hobby I have some familiarity with. And the speculator bubble thing you mention is often ascribed to comic book collecting.
Let's look at two Superman comics as examples. Action Comics #1. Superman #75.
Both are notable and have gained a lot of media attention.
One is extremely valuable, because of rarity. The other is not, because of rarity.
One is the textbook example of supply and demand. Action Comics #1 is the first appearance of Superman, the first appearance of the modern concept of the super hero, and the start of the super hero comic as a genre. So it is culturally significant. And there are estimates of maybe 100 in existence. Demand for such a comic is high, supply is low.
(And this is why so many Golden and Silver Age comics are collectible and retain as well as appreciate in value over the years. There just aren't enough of them in existence.)
But the other is the textbook example of speculators driving false value into a comic. Superman #75 had a massive print run and is readily available.
So yeah, I get the analogy.
The T6 Temporal Light Cruiser isn't really going to be a victim of speculation. Cryptic holds too much power in its rarity.
1- It's a very rare reward from the packs.
2- It's value is beyond the cap on the exchange, making it harder to track down and make a transaction for.
That many of you keep noting you see practically none of these in-game, pushes this ship away from speculator bubble and more toward valuable collectible due to rarity.
When the bubble bursts, it will be when Cryptic does something to change its control over the ship. Which means in a few years it will be dated and power will have crept past it, and the novelty will have begun to wear off. You see, there's not millions of these sitting in someone's basement all still polybagged. There's a small trickle of them entering the economy at a price point only a few people are willing to pay for.
Hence my comparison to the JHAS. What changed for the bug ship to make its value decrease? It wasn't a burst of a speculator bubble. It was age, a new tier of ships that crept on its unique power value, re-release of its availability to put more in circulation, and a change in the EC cap.
Like I said, wait 3 to 6 years. The Temporal Light Cruiser will come down in price by then. Slowly, gradually. It won't be a bubble bursting.
BUT: All that being said, as one of the people that paid nearly a billion EC for his ... I sincerely hope that EVERYONE who wants one of these can and does get one. I got mine to fly. I paid a ton for it. I opened it. I love it. I can't even begin to tell you all how much I hope you too get to enjoy the game for yourselves the way I do now that I have one of these. I won't care if it devalues the ship I paid so much for. It is FUN, and I really really really want you all to have that kind of fun too.
So even if it is a bubble that bursts? I say, HELL YEAH! T6 Connies for EVERYONE!
Until then though, I still feel that given enough time, if one of you keeps at it you can get one of these. It's price is steep but at least it is actually IN the game now.
Good luck to you all.
I had a shop back when the Death of Superman book came out. I do understand exactly what you're talking about and I understand the point you're making about rarity. For example, I remember when X-Force #1 was a prime commodity. When they were still hot I picked up a few of them at what I considered a reasonable price, and once I had some in stock I started dramatically reducing what I'd offer for them figuring I would buy again after the ones I had moved. They never did, and I figured out why --there were way too many sellers and not enough buyers. That's when I realized that no matter what the price guide said, they were all but worthless and I stopped buying them at all for any price. You wouldn't believe how many people, many of them kids, were just devastated that what they thought was a goldmine wasn't even worth cover price. So I've personally been in a market with a burst speculator bubble and learned first hand how it works.
Back to the Connie, I acknowledged the limited supply in my post which you're correct does help matters -to a degree-. Rarity alone doesn't guarantee anything, though. When speculators buy up the entire supply and trade between one another at ever-increasing prices, what happens is they price themselves out of the market. What they pay now with the expectation of selling higher down the road exceeds what the potential customer base is willing to spend, those potential buyers drop out of the market, and all that's left are the investors, selling to one another. When that happens, you're in bubble territory. Again, the lack of Connies being flown in this game strongly suggests that this has already happened and that the only ones out there are in the hands of speculators who have more invested in them than buyers are willing to pay.
What happens next is that the speculators themselves, who are the only ones buying them at the current inflated bubble prices, will slow or stop their buying because they're doing what I did with those comics, wait to buy more until the ones they have move. But they won't move, because they've priced themselves out of the range of what the general customer is willing to pay. So at that point, everybody's selling and nobody's buying until and unless the price comes down. Those investors, who have sunk far more into the items than they will ever sell them for, are stuck taking a bloody bath. The bubble has burst. If the market for the items recovers at all, it will be at a vastly lower market corrected price that will never come close to the heights of bubble inflated prices.
This is what happened in the housing market, where speculators flooded the market and bought up everything in sight to flip it for profit, usually to other investors / speculators. They were trading in a limited supply commodity with a high inherent desirability to it, but that didn't save them. Once they traded the price up past what their customer base could afford, they were in the bubble zone and from then on it wasn't a matter of if the bubble would burst and the market crash and massive losses taken, it was WHEN.
The same forces apply here. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.
I wish they'd bring back that version of Superman, attired in his classic costume to boot!!
But, very true of what is said here, and this is why I wondered if Cryptic, foresaw this and just ignored history and saw potential profit by looking at the revenue equation from only one side, instead of both.
However, Cryptic still holds the trump card in all of this would be a "Fleet Version" or, T(next number here) with upgraded specs
causing the T6 Con's Value to sink, like a lead balloon!
As far as 'reality' goes I'm against top tier versions of T1 ships. Look at your average T6 ship. It's HUGE vs a T1 ship of same class. I don't see any way a T6 Connie can honestly compete against an T6 Galaxy at many times the mass. I don't care how advanced your rowboat is, it just can't mount the same amount of weapons as a frigate.
That being said... if someone offered me a T6 Connie at a reasonable price; I'll take it!
I think that is the point of it being a 'temporal' ship. They can claim it has Tardis like dimensions inside it so it can carry the punch it does. Just look at Kal Dano's near shuttle pod as you walk around in his lab there.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I think smokebailey has a point. You can cite "supply and demand" all you like, and I'll point out something else. It's called a speculator bubble. I think the lack of them seen in game is pretty strong evidence that people aren't using these for their intended purpose (aka playing them) but instead as some misguided attempt at an investment. In a speculator bubble, demand is artificially inflated by the idea that the price will continue to increase, hoarders and investors buy them with the intention of selling later for profit, and the market is distorted. It becomes incestuous and cannibalistic, and there inevitably comes a point where you have a bunch of sellers looking to cash in and no buyers because everyone left in the market has them to sell as well with the same idea of making money off of it. Those looking to liquidate their investment discover that they can't, the bubble bursts, and the investors are stuck with merchandise they can't move at all or that they can't sell for anywhere near what they put into it.
This has all the signs of such a bubble. The players who want this ship for it's actual intended purpose have been priced out of the market and the only people buying and selling this thing are investors / speculators who are buying with intent to sell. Speculators alone cannot form a functioning customer base, the people who would buy them to use them have dropped out of the market. Those who continue to trade them are just swapping them among themselves at ever increasing prices, and that is unsustainable. When they try to cash in, they'll find they can't. The bubble will burst, and those holding them will find they cannot move them without taking a significant loss.
Have fun with that. I'll wait for mine until the price comes down to a sane level. And I'll fly the damned thing, because it's a game piece meant to be used to play the game with. And the tears of the speculators will be delicious.
So I'm a comic artist. And I've been a collector since I was a very small kid. And I worked at a comic book shop in college. Two friends owned their own shops. My best friend managed one of those shops. And I even interned at Valiant Comics in the 1990s. It's an industry and a hobby I have some familiarity with. And the speculator bubble thing you mention is often ascribed to comic book collecting.
Let's look at two Superman comics as examples. Action Comics #1. Superman #75.
Both are notable and have gained a lot of media attention.
One is extremely valuable, because of rarity. The other is not, because of rarity.
One is the textbook example of supply and demand. Action Comics #1 is the first appearance of Superman, the first appearance of the modern concept of the super hero, and the start of the super hero comic as a genre. So it is culturally significant. And there are estimates of maybe 100 in existence. Demand for such a comic is high, supply is low.
(And this is why so many Golden and Silver Age comics are collectible and retain as well as appreciate in value over the years. There just aren't enough of them in existence.)
But the other is the textbook example of speculators driving false value into a comic. Superman #75 had a massive print run and is readily available.
So yeah, I get the analogy.
The T6 Temporal Light Cruiser isn't really going to be a victim of speculation. Cryptic holds too much power in its rarity.
1- It's a very rare reward from the packs.
2- It's value is beyond the cap on the exchange, making it harder to track down and make a transaction for.
That many of you keep noting you see practically none of these in-game, pushes this ship away from speculator bubble and more toward valuable collectible due to rarity.
When the bubble bursts, it will be when Cryptic does something to change its control over the ship. Which means in a few years it will be dated and power will have crept past it, and the novelty will have begun to wear off. You see, there's not millions of these sitting in someone's basement all still polybagged. There's a small trickle of them entering the economy at a price point only a few people are willing to pay for.
Hence my comparison to the JHAS. What changed for the bug ship to make its value decrease? It wasn't a burst of a speculator bubble. It was age, a new tier of ships that crept on its unique power value, re-release of its availability to put more in circulation, and a change in the EC cap.
Like I said, wait 3 to 6 years. The Temporal Light Cruiser will come down in price by then. Slowly, gradually. It won't be a bubble bursting.
BUT: All that being said, as one of the people that paid nearly a billion EC for his ... I sincerely hope that EVERYONE who wants one of these can and does get one. I got mine to fly. I paid a ton for it. I opened it. I love it. I can't even begin to tell you all how much I hope you too get to enjoy the game for yourselves the way I do now that I have one of these. I won't care if it devalues the ship I paid so much for. It is FUN, and I really really really want you all to have that kind of fun too.
So even if it is a bubble that bursts? I say, HELL YEAH! T6 Connies for EVERYONE!
Until then though, I still feel that given enough time, if one of you keeps at it you can get one of these. It's price is steep but at least it is actually IN the game now.
Good luck to you all.
I had a shop back when the Death of Superman book came out. I do understand exactly what you're talking about and I understand the point you're making about rarity. For example, I remember when X-Force #1 was a prime commodity. When they were still hot I picked up a few of them at what I considered a reasonable price, and once I had some in stock I started dramatically reducing what I'd offer for them figuring I would buy again after the ones I had moved. They never did, and I figured out why --there were way too many sellers and not enough buyers. That's when I realized that no matter what the price guide said, they were all but worthless and I stopped buying them at all for any price. You wouldn't believe how many people, many of them kids, were just devastated that what they thought was a goldmine wasn't even worth cover price. So I've personally been in a market with a burst speculator bubble and learned first hand how it works.
Back to the Connie, I acknowledged the limited supply in my post which you're correct does help matters -to a degree-. Rarity alone doesn't guarantee anything, though. When speculators buy up the entire supply and trade between one another at ever-increasing prices, what happens is they price themselves out of the market. What they pay now with the expectation of selling higher down the road exceeds what the potential customer base is willing to spend, those potential buyers drop out of the market, and all that's left are the investors, selling to one another. When that happens, you're in bubble territory. Again, the lack of Connies being flown in this game strongly suggests that this has already happened and that the only ones out there are in the hands of speculators who have more invested in them than buyers are willing to pay.
What happens next is that the speculators themselves, who are the only ones buying them at the current inflated bubble prices, will slow or stop their buying because they're doing what I did with those comics, wait to buy more until the ones they have move. But they won't move, because they've priced themselves out of the range of what the general customer is willing to pay. So at that point, everybody's selling and nobody's buying until and unless the price comes down. Those investors, who have sunk far more into the items than they will ever sell them for, are stuck taking a bloody bath. The bubble has burst. If the market for the items recovers at all, it will be at a vastly lower market corrected price that will never come close to the heights of bubble inflated prices.
This is what happened in the housing market, where speculators flooded the market and bought up everything in sight to flip it for profit, usually to other investors / speculators. They were trading in a limited supply commodity with a high inherent desirability to it, but that didn't save them. Once they traded the price up past what their customer base could afford, they were in the bubble zone and from then on it wasn't a matter of if the bubble would burst and the market crash and massive losses taken, it was WHEN.
The same forces apply here. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.
I think the only mistake with any real-world analogy to price bubbles is that no one has made any debts and will have to foreclose on his spaceship and has to rent a shuttle or something.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
As far as 'reality' goes I'm against top tier versions of T1 ships. Look at your average T6 ship. It's HUGE vs a T1 ship of same class. I don't see any way a T6 Connie can honestly compete against an T6 Galaxy at many times the mass. I don't care how advanced your rowboat is, it just can't mount the same amount of weapons as a frigate.
That being said... if someone offered me a T6 Connie at a reasonable price; I'll take it!
but in real life you can take a old car and replace its engine with a brand new one.
A stretch i know but the principle is similar its a old design with a new frame.
Aslo HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS EXISTED???
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
I think the only mistake with any real-world analogy to price bubbles is that no one has made any debts and will have to foreclose on his spaceship and has to rent a shuttle or something.
Then there's the whole matter of how every player can print their own space cash..
Sometimes real-world economic models just don't apply to fantasy space economies.
No one can be surprised a Star Trek fan is offended by the very concept of money instead of all desirable goods just being blurped out of a replicator at will . The fantasy is very immersive for some, I guess.
Never mind those comic book folk she speaks so highly of spent real money (in most cases) to put those ships into the game at all, and that prices are dictated by the poor "robbed" BUYERS. Who clearly have the billion+ Ec mudcoin to offer... or sales wouldn't be taking place.
TOS era fans shouldn't be offended as in TOS "Federation Credits" (aka money/currency) was alive and well and mentioned in many a TOS episode.
Not saying you are wrong. But can you name one or two please? I do not recall them. Though I have three examples of money being inferred. Trouble with Tribbles where the bartender expected to be paid. Mudd's women where they implied dilithium miners are wealthy men for obtaining a vital resource. Errand of Mercy asking how much Starfleet had spent on Spock's training.
In the TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" there is a scene where the price for Tribbles is being negotiated:
UHURA: Are you selling them?
BARMAN: That's what we're trying to decide right now.
JONES: My friend, 10 credits apiece is a very reasonable price. Now you can see for yourself how much the lovely little lady appreciates the finer things.
BARMAN: One credit apiece.
CHEKOV: He won't bite, will he?
JONES: Sir, transporting harmful animals from one planet to another is against regulations, or weren't you aware of that? Besides, tribbles have no teeth.
BARMAN: All right. I'll double my offer 2 credits.
JONES: Twice nothing is still nothing.
UHURA: If you're not going to take him, I'm going to take him. I think he's cute.
BARMAN: Four credits.
JONES: Is that an offer or a joke?
BARMAN: That's my offer.
JONES: That's a joke.
BARMAN: Five?
JONES: You're an honest man. I'll tell you what I'm going to do I'm going to lessen my price to eight and a half credits.
BARMAN: You're talking yourself out of a deal, friend. Six credits. Not a credit more.
JONES: Seven and a half. Seven? All right, you robber, six credits.
BARMAN: Done. When can I have them?
JONES: Right away.
UHURA: All right, what are you selling them for?
BARMAN: Well, let me see, little lady. Six credits. Figure a reasonable mark-up for a reasonable profit, say ten percent mark-up. Ten credits.
JONES: Thief.
BARMAN: In fact, I'll sell you this one.
(the tribble is eating grain spilt from the packet Kirk gave Chekov)
CHEKOV: Hey! He's eating my grain.
BARMAN: That'll be ten credits.
^^^
Credits are much more than 'inferred' here.
Also in the TOS episode "Catspaw":
DESALLE: Wave length analysis, Mister Chekov?
CHEKOV: It will not analyse, sir.
DESALLE: All right, but it's there and it's real. If it's real, it can be affected. Engineering, stand by to divert all power systems to the outer hull. Prepare impulse engines for generation of maximum heat directed as ordered. Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.
Then there is a reference to the 'investment' Starfleet has in Mr. Spock's training from TOS "The Apple":
KIRK: Stepped in front and took the thorns yourself.
SPOCK: I assure you, Captain, I had no intention of doing that. It was merely my own clumsiness prevented me which prevented me from moving out of the way.
KIRK: I see. Well next time, just yell. I can step out of the way as quickly as the next man.
SPOCK: I shall do so.
KIRK: Trying to get yourself killed. Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?
SPOCK: One hundred twenty two thousand two hundred...
KIRK: Never mind. But thanks. Kaplan, take the post.
KAPLAN: Yes, sir.
Yes, Spock never finishes his sentence, but it's pretty clear he was probably gouing to say 'credits' if Kirk hadn't cut him off.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I think smokebailey has a point. You can cite "supply and demand" all you like, and I'll point out something else. It's called a speculator bubble. I think the lack of them seen in game is pretty strong evidence that people aren't using these for their intended purpose (aka playing them) but instead as some misguided attempt at an investment. In a speculator bubble, demand is artificially inflated by the idea that the price will continue to increase, hoarders and investors buy them with the intention of selling later for profit, and the market is distorted. It becomes incestuous and cannibalistic, and there inevitably comes a point where you have a bunch of sellers looking to cash in and no buyers because everyone left in the market has them to sell as well with the same idea of making money off of it. Those looking to liquidate their investment discover that they can't, the bubble bursts, and the investors are stuck with merchandise they can't move at all or that they can't sell for anywhere near what they put into it.
This has all the signs of such a bubble. The players who want this ship for it's actual intended purpose have been priced out of the market and the only people buying and selling this thing are investors / speculators who are buying with intent to sell. Speculators alone cannot form a functioning customer base, the people who would buy them to use them have dropped out of the market. Those who continue to trade them are just swapping them among themselves at ever increasing prices, and that is unsustainable. When they try to cash in, they'll find they can't. The bubble will burst, and those holding them will find they cannot move them without taking a significant loss.
Have fun with that. I'll wait for mine until the price comes down to a sane level. And I'll fly the damned thing, because it's a game piece meant to be used to play the game with. And the tears of the speculators will be delicious.
As far as 'reality' goes I'm against top tier versions of T1 ships. Look at your average T6 ship. It's HUGE vs a T1 ship of same class...
No, only the T6 versions of T1 Starfleet vessels.
The KDF and the Republic Navy have no problem making T1 vessels work perfectly fine at T6. They don't even need temporal shenanigans to make it happen.
No one can be surprised a Star Trek fan is offended by the very concept of money instead of all desirable goods just being blurped out of a replicator at will . The fantasy is very immersive for some, I guess.
Never mind those comic book folk she speaks so highly of spent real money (in most cases) to put those ships into the game at all, and that prices are dictated by the poor "robbed" BUYERS. Who clearly have the billion+ Ec mudcoin to offer... or sales wouldn't be taking place.
TOS era fans shouldn't be offended as in TOS "Federation Credits" (aka money/currency) was alive and well and mentioned in many a TOS episode.
Not saying you are wrong. But can you name one or two please? I do not recall them. Though I have three examples of money being inferred. Trouble with Tribbles where the bartender expected to be paid. Mudd's women where they implied dilithium miners are wealthy men for obtaining a vital resource. Errand of Mercy asking how much Starfleet had spent on Spock's training.
In the TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" there is a scene where the price for Tribbles is being negotiated:
UHURA: Are you selling them?
BARMAN: That's what we're trying to decide right now.
JONES: My friend, 10 credits apiece is a very reasonable price. Now you can see for yourself how much the lovely little lady appreciates the finer things.
BARMAN: One credit apiece.
CHEKOV: He won't bite, will he?
JONES: Sir, transporting harmful animals from one planet to another is against regulations, or weren't you aware of that? Besides, tribbles have no teeth.
BARMAN: All right. I'll double my offer 2 credits.
JONES: Twice nothing is still nothing.
UHURA: If you're not going to take him, I'm going to take him. I think he's cute.
BARMAN: Four credits.
JONES: Is that an offer or a joke?
BARMAN: That's my offer.
JONES: That's a joke.
BARMAN: Five?
JONES: You're an honest man. I'll tell you what I'm going to do I'm going to lessen my price to eight and a half credits.
BARMAN: You're talking yourself out of a deal, friend. Six credits. Not a credit more.
JONES: Seven and a half. Seven? All right, you robber, six credits.
BARMAN: Done. When can I have them?
JONES: Right away.
UHURA: All right, what are you selling them for?
BARMAN: Well, let me see, little lady. Six credits. Figure a reasonable mark-up for a reasonable profit, say ten percent mark-up. Ten credits.
JONES: Thief.
BARMAN: In fact, I'll sell you this one.
(the tribble is eating grain spilt from the packet Kirk gave Chekov)
CHEKOV: Hey! He's eating my grain.
BARMAN: That'll be ten credits.
^^^
Credits are much more than 'inferred' here.
Also in the TOS episode "Catspaw":
DESALLE: Wave length analysis, Mister Chekov?
CHEKOV: It will not analyse, sir.
DESALLE: All right, but it's there and it's real. If it's real, it can be affected. Engineering, stand by to divert all power systems to the outer hull. Prepare impulse engines for generation of maximum heat directed as ordered. Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.
Then there is a reference to the 'investment' Starfleet has in Mr. Spock's training from TOS "The Apple":
KIRK: Stepped in front and took the thorns yourself.
SPOCK: I assure you, Captain, I had no intention of doing that. It was merely my own clumsiness prevented me which prevented me from moving out of the way.
KIRK: I see. Well next time, just yell. I can step out of the way as quickly as the next man.
SPOCK: I shall do so.
KIRK: Trying to get yourself killed. Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?
SPOCK: One hundred twenty two thousand two hundred...
KIRK: Never mind. But thanks. Kaplan, take the post.
KAPLAN: Yes, sir.
Yes, Spock never finishes his sentence, but it's pretty clear he was probably gouing to say 'credits' if Kirk hadn't cut him off.
Thank you. I am annoyed as I remembered the Spock scene but not the right episode.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yeah, its amazing how many people buy that malarky about the Federation not using money when its literally right in front of their face the entire time.
Well the direct and unambiguous statements in TNG might have something to do with it.
Yeah, its amazing how many people buy that malarky about the Federation not using money when its literally right in front of their face the entire time.
Even Soviet Russia, despite being fully Communist, still had a form of economy and a currency. The Federation is democratic socialism.
The Federation is not comparable to any current system. It's post-scarcity, a state of affairs that defaults to socialism but we don't know much about its government other than the fact it has a president.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Yeah, its amazing how many people buy that malarky about the Federation not using money when its literally right in front of their face the entire time.
Well the direct and unambiguous statements in TNG might have something to do with it.
Yeah, its amazing how many people buy that malarky about the Federation not using money when its literally right in front of their face the entire time.
Even Soviet Russia, despite being fully Communist, still had a form of economy and a currency. The Federation is democratic socialism.
The Federation is not comparable to any current system. It's post-scarcity, a state of affairs that defaults to socialism but we don't know much about its government other than the fact it has a president.
I don't think they are really post-scarcity. After all, they are still busy making trade agreements or have to find available space flights and things like that. So there are clearly still things that are scarce. Even with their replicator technology, they can't create everything they need out of thin air.
I imagine they are in a state where most people do really not need to work, because most production is basically automated and many services are too. So basically something like basic universal income, at a very high level.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I don't think they are really post-scarcity. After all, they are still busy making trade agreements or have to find available space flights and things like that. So there are clearly still things that are scarce. Even with their replicator technology, they can't create everything they need out of thin air.
I imagine they are in a state where most people do really not need to work, because most production is basically automated and many services are too. So basically something like basic universal income, at a very high level.
I had to look this up to make sure I knew what it meant.
Post-scarcity is a hypothetical economy in which most goods can be produced in great abundance with minimal human labor needed, so that they become available to all very cheaply or even freely. Post-scarcity is not generally taken to mean that scarcity has been eliminated for all consumer goods and services; instead, it is often taken to mean that all people can easily have their basic survival needs met along with some significant proportion of their desires for goods and services, with writers on the topic often emphasizing that certain commodities are likely to remain scarce in a post-scarcity society.
So according to Wikipedia they do qualify as post scarcity because the basic needs are all met. But some rare items are still harder to find. . . Though now I am confused as what this all had to do with getting a ship in game. . . .
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I don't think they are really post-scarcity. After all, they are still busy making trade agreements or have to find available space flights and things like that. So there are clearly still things that are scarce. Even with their replicator technology, they can't create everything they need out of thin air.
I imagine they are in a state where most people do really not need to work, because most production is basically automated and many services are too. So basically something like basic universal income, at a very high level.
Whilst expanding yes. Their core is still fully self sufficient. Oddly enough the best look we get that the inner workings of the Federation comes from DS9, not TNG, and DS9 is part of the Federations expansion. But Earth at least is exactly as you describe, 'a state where most people do really not need to work, because most production is basically automated and many services are too', i.e. a post-scarcity economy.
We know it exists but we don't know anything about it. How much power the individuals have, if they're a single house, are they appointed, does the council have power over individual planets or just the Federation as a whole, which planets get a seat etc.
The problem there artan is the only times anyone in tng made that claim they were talking to someone from a primitive culture & those propaganda statements are vastly outweighed by people using or referencing currency often in the same episodes.
It's not propaganda, it is quite literally the Federations USP. It's how Picard sells the Federation, it's a view supported by the Earth presented in TNG and DS9 (i.e. the only Federation world we ever see in detail), and off to Yorktown station which is on the Federation borders.
Having just written that, I realise now that we're presented with far more information about Kronos and the KE, Romulus and the RSE and even bloody Bajor than we ever are about future Earth or the Federation.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
The reality of the situation is a whole lot of STO folks happily pay a whole lot more space cash for the experience of high-stakes space gambling than they can expect to get back by selling the stuff they get from the gambleboxes. Whenever the price of a gamblebox becomes unbalanced and it becomes more profitable to open them than to sell them, someone comes along, buys them all, and consumes them until their market price no longer makes them more profitable to open than to sell. After that, the constant stream of random "lucky" folks, who give it the old college try, has a way of keeping the price just above what the "average joe" can really expect to get back from them, if they were to open them in bulk.
As they say, gamblers gonna gamb.
I wish they'd bring back that version of Superman, attired in his classic costume to boot!!
But, very true of what is said here, and this is why I wondered if Cryptic, foresaw this and just ignored history and saw potential profit by looking at the revenue equation from only one side, instead of both.
However, Cryptic still holds the trump card in all of this would be a "Fleet Version" or, T(next number here) with upgraded specs
causing the T6 Con's Value to sink, like a lead balloon!
I think that is the point of it being a 'temporal' ship. They can claim it has Tardis like dimensions inside it so it can carry the punch it does. Just look at Kal Dano's near shuttle pod as you walk around in his lab there.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I think the only mistake with any real-world analogy to price bubbles is that no one has made any debts and will have to foreclose on his spaceship and has to rent a shuttle or something.
A stretch i know but the principle is similar its a old design with a new frame.
Aslo HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS EXISTED???
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Then there's the whole matter of how every player can print their own space cash..
Sometimes real-world economic models just don't apply to fantasy space economies.
In the TOS episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" there is a scene where the price for Tribbles is being negotiated:
UHURA: Are you selling them?
BARMAN: That's what we're trying to decide right now.
JONES: My friend, 10 credits apiece is a very reasonable price. Now you can see for yourself how much the lovely little lady appreciates the finer things.
BARMAN: One credit apiece.
CHEKOV: He won't bite, will he?
JONES: Sir, transporting harmful animals from one planet to another is against regulations, or weren't you aware of that? Besides, tribbles have no teeth.
BARMAN: All right. I'll double my offer 2 credits.
JONES: Twice nothing is still nothing.
UHURA: If you're not going to take him, I'm going to take him. I think he's cute.
BARMAN: Four credits.
JONES: Is that an offer or a joke?
BARMAN: That's my offer.
JONES: That's a joke.
BARMAN: Five?
JONES: You're an honest man. I'll tell you what I'm going to do I'm going to lessen my price to eight and a half credits.
BARMAN: You're talking yourself out of a deal, friend. Six credits. Not a credit more.
JONES: Seven and a half. Seven? All right, you robber, six credits.
BARMAN: Done. When can I have them?
JONES: Right away.
UHURA: All right, what are you selling them for?
BARMAN: Well, let me see, little lady. Six credits. Figure a reasonable mark-up for a reasonable profit, say ten percent mark-up. Ten credits.
JONES: Thief.
BARMAN: In fact, I'll sell you this one.
(the tribble is eating grain spilt from the packet Kirk gave Chekov)
CHEKOV: Hey! He's eating my grain.
BARMAN: That'll be ten credits.
^^^
Credits are much more than 'inferred' here.
Also in the TOS episode "Catspaw":
DESALLE: Wave length analysis, Mister Chekov?
CHEKOV: It will not analyse, sir.
DESALLE: All right, but it's there and it's real. If it's real, it can be affected. Engineering, stand by to divert all power systems to the outer hull. Prepare impulse engines for generation of maximum heat directed as ordered. Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.
Then there is a reference to the 'investment' Starfleet has in Mr. Spock's training from TOS "The Apple":
KIRK: Stepped in front and took the thorns yourself.
SPOCK: I assure you, Captain, I had no intention of doing that. It was merely my own clumsiness prevented me which prevented me from moving out of the way.
KIRK: I see. Well next time, just yell. I can step out of the way as quickly as the next man.
SPOCK: I shall do so.
KIRK: Trying to get yourself killed. Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?
SPOCK: One hundred twenty two thousand two hundred...
KIRK: Never mind. But thanks. Kaplan, take the post.
KAPLAN: Yes, sir.
Yes, Spock never finishes his sentence, but it's pretty clear he was probably gouing to say 'credits' if Kirk hadn't cut him off.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
^^ Best post in the thread! Thank you for it.
The KDF and the Republic Navy have no problem making T1 vessels work perfectly fine at T6. They don't even need temporal shenanigans to make it happen.
Thank you. I am annoyed as I remembered the Spock scene but not the right episode.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Well the direct and unambiguous statements in TNG might have something to do with it.
The Federation is not comparable to any current system. It's post-scarcity, a state of affairs that defaults to socialism but we don't know much about its government other than the fact it has a president.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I don't think they are really post-scarcity. After all, they are still busy making trade agreements or have to find available space flights and things like that. So there are clearly still things that are scarce. Even with their replicator technology, they can't create everything they need out of thin air.
I imagine they are in a state where most people do really not need to work, because most production is basically automated and many services are too. So basically something like basic universal income, at a very high level.
I had to look this up to make sure I knew what it meant.
Post-scarcity is a hypothetical economy in which most goods can be produced in great abundance with minimal human labor needed, so that they become available to all very cheaply or even freely. Post-scarcity is not generally taken to mean that scarcity has been eliminated for all consumer goods and services; instead, it is often taken to mean that all people can easily have their basic survival needs met along with some significant proportion of their desires for goods and services, with writers on the topic often emphasizing that certain commodities are likely to remain scarce in a post-scarcity society.
So according to Wikipedia they do qualify as post scarcity because the basic needs are all met. But some rare items are still harder to find. . . Though now I am confused as what this all had to do with getting a ship in game. . . .
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Why hast thou forsaken us oh most wise and noble Ferengi?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Whilst expanding yes. Their core is still fully self sufficient. Oddly enough the best look we get that the inner workings of the Federation comes from DS9, not TNG, and DS9 is part of the Federations expansion. But Earth at least is exactly as you describe, 'a state where most people do really not need to work, because most production is basically automated and many services are too', i.e. a post-scarcity economy.
We know it exists but we don't know anything about it. How much power the individuals have, if they're a single house, are they appointed, does the council have power over individual planets or just the Federation as a whole, which planets get a seat etc.
It's not propaganda, it is quite literally the Federations USP. It's how Picard sells the Federation, it's a view supported by the Earth presented in TNG and DS9 (i.e. the only Federation world we ever see in detail), and off to Yorktown station which is on the Federation borders.
Having just written that, I realise now that we're presented with far more information about Kronos and the KE, Romulus and the RSE and even bloody Bajor than we ever are about future Earth or the Federation.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!