I would rather see them give players access to more of a way to create their own pvp maps, with match types ranging from merely slugfest/free for all to more capture point type ones. If we could create an subit map types, match types pvp in something like a Pvp=foundry than we might see more interest an draw more attention into the pvp side.
Have you considered this may not be the game for you then..?
This
I think you forget what gets players in the door there, Arionisa-STAR TREK.
Which is why the game is so story focused.
because nobody on-staff has the first clue how to NOT kill it in terms of a viable mode that generates revenue and buzz that brings people in and keeps them.
Yeah that sounds like the "holy grail" of game design to me. Got an example in mind?
they're not going to listen to the players, because what the players have been saying since 2010 doesn't fit what their statistical breakdowns tell them.
You mean the players who say 100 different things? Or did you have something else in mind?
Hell, the declining numbers of KDF in the game should be a red-alert problem,
This game could be so much better if it had PVP like world of tanks. I play that game and its pretty exciting. This game is not exciting at all like WOT. You just do the same PVE over and over and over SIGH.
regards
fully agree - when PvP was still on, I spent a lot of Money on the game to be competitive (it is pay to win after all) and spent more time playing. Now I have most T5 ships unlocked - which suddently weren't competitive anymore. New and unbalanced skills introduced, many PvP Players left and the Queues are dead. I still log on to check if the fleet is doing ok, Play for 10 mins, then log off to Play World of tanks or armoured warfare.
18 characters
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
Have you considered this may not be the game for you then..?
This
they're not going to listen to the players, because what the players have been saying since 2010 doesn't fit what their statistical breakdowns tell them. Hell, the declining numbers of KDF in the game should be a red-alert problem, never mind the already accomplished destruction of what used to be one of the most supportive and active subgroups in the game (PvP).
even if they had the additional tech people (they don't), the direction and organization level just doesn't comprehend the problem is a problem-the game is, after all, still turning a profit, and there is a vocal community of players here who will defend anything they do, so long as the rewards for grinding ISA (For the millionth time)don't take another hit.
So...who are they going to believe, the players...or their lying eyes. The thing is, there was a time when they did listen to you pvp folks. The trouble is, you were WRONG. You guys did not support this game...and the changes you demanded cost them those who did. And those are the ones you just made fun of. You know, people who may have been okay with pvp stuff if they left their pve stuff alone. But you all didn't. Then you make put them down like this...and you wonder why we just want you pvpers to just go away now.
this pretty much is a perfect example why it doesn't make sense to fight for pvp in here:
- claims like once had been made on witches lol
- false to no information
- no examples nor sources
- twisting facts
- nothing of all of that lets me think of star trek spirit
...welcome to sto forums...
and i won't drop examples, why should i?!... on nowadays sto forums xD...
I've tried WoT myself. Kinda liked World of Warships a bit more though.
I think one of the things that the OP might be referring to is tiered PvP. They don't pit a T1 tank against a top tier tank.
The problem with that idea is that its not just ship tiers we gotta consider in STO, its gear. We've had people that put mk XIV Gold gear on a T1 ship and frickin' go crazy in Infected for fun. With so many variables, we can't really do a tiered system because then we'd have to integrate some kind of "Gear Score" system to insure that we're not pitting fresh people with basic gear against veterans with epic gear. Also... adding a Gear Score system would just give the elitests another means of discriminating against players by saying "if you don't have X Gear Score you are a failure and must go back to normal so GTFO n00b."
Not only that, with the lateral level gain of Specializations, a Fresh lv 50 with no spec points will be at a bit of a disadvantage against a lv 60 with even one full spec tree.
STO has too many variables to integrate some kind of tiered PvP system.
Well said, and I agree it wouldn't be simple to implement. But, this game could be so much better if it had a pvp like that and would generate a lot of money at the same time.
Actually, STO has an easy way to generate gear scores... item mk and rarity.... But that still leaves the main question: why bother caring about gear scores? Macros are going to have an effect too.
Have you considered this may not be the game for you then..?
This
they're not going to listen to the players, because what the players have been saying since 2010 doesn't fit what their statistical breakdowns tell them. Hell, the declining numbers of KDF in the game should be a red-alert problem, never mind the already accomplished destruction of what used to be one of the most supportive and active subgroups in the game (PvP).
even if they had the additional tech people (they don't), the direction and organization level just doesn't comprehend the problem is a problem-the game is, after all, still turning a profit, and there is a vocal community of players here who will defend anything they do, so long as the rewards for grinding ISA (For the millionth time)don't take another hit.
So...who are they going to believe, the players...or their lying eyes. The thing is, there was a time when they did listen to you pvp folks. The trouble is, you were WRONG. You guys did not support this game...and the changes you demanded cost them those who did. And those are the ones you just made fun of. You know, people who may have been okay with pvp stuff if they left their pve stuff alone. But you all didn't. Then you make put them down like this...and you wonder why we just want you pvpers to just go away now.
this pretty much is a perfect example why it doesn't make sense to fight for pvp in here:
- claims like once had been made on witches lol
- false to no information
- no examples nor sources
- twisting facts
- nothing of all of that lets me think of star trek spirit
...welcome to sto forums...
and i won't drop examples, why should i?!... on nowadays sto forums xD...
So...why did you bother to describe yourself? You do realize you are insignificant amd we don't care...right?
oh, forgot childish lol... well, as for me, i just know how to adapt :P
Have you considered this may not be the game for you then..?
This
they're not going to listen to the players, because what the players have been saying since 2010 doesn't fit what their statistical breakdowns tell them. Hell, the declining numbers of KDF in the game should be a red-alert problem, never mind the already accomplished destruction of what used to be one of the most supportive and active subgroups in the game (PvP).
even if they had the additional tech people (they don't), the direction and organization level just doesn't comprehend the problem is a problem-the game is, after all, still turning a profit, and there is a vocal community of players here who will defend anything they do, so long as the rewards for grinding ISA (For the millionth time)don't take another hit.
So...who are they going to believe, the players...or their lying eyes. The thing is, there was a time when they did listen to you pvp folks. The trouble is, you were WRONG. You guys did not support this game...and the changes you demanded cost them those who did. And those are the ones you just made fun of. You know, people who may have been okay with pvp stuff if they left their pve stuff alone. But you all didn't. Then you make put them down like this...and you wonder why we just want you pvpers to just go away now.
this pretty much is a perfect example why it doesn't make sense to fight for pvp in here:
- claims like once had been made on witches lol
- false to no information
- no examples nor sources
- twisting facts
- nothing of all of that lets me think of star trek spirit
...welcome to sto forums...
and i won't drop examples, why should i?!... on nowadays sto forums xD...
So...why did you bother to describe yourself? You do realize you are insignificant amd we don't care...right?
oh, forgot childish lol... well, as for me, i just know how to adapt :P
No...seriously, why do you keep describing yourself? You have some sort of mental issue or something? You do realize that they have doctors for that...right?
try harder kid and don't forget to scream in need of diaper change lol....
dear console newbies:
forget about sto pvp, there'll happen nothing! and that, to a good degree, is because of what u can take from different witchhunters in this very thread, as it is exemplary.
as soon any patchnote would include something for pvp again u can bet on these individuals will make the forum burn. indeed they seem to have as much clue about the topic as the devs themselves lmao (means none)...
not wanted:
- balance (yep, even in terms of npc's. those need to get roflstomped)
- pvp (as it would need the game to be balanced throughout and people would have fun with something witchhunters don't understand, so: let it burn)
wanted:
- new costumes xDDD.....................
nuffsaid
team deathmatch is a feature in the rudimentary PVP part of STO. But comparing those 2 games is an exercise in stupid anyway. STO has no aiming, no cover, no armor and no ammunition system that is integral to gameplay...in other words, not only is it a comparison between apples and oranges, it actually is a comparison between a dessert and a soup, not even in the same category.
Also, I'd like to say that both war thunder and armored warfare are better games at this point in time. WoT was great when it was new/unique.
I know some skills have been seriously nerfed - but mainly because they were implemented and never tested. Some good Players getting the max out of it. But obviously it'S the fault of PvPers...
Witout proper testing there are possibilities that were never meant to work that way. A friend of mine had boosted his Sci crit Chance to OVER 100% - they nerfed that, so one cannot obuse the System in that way (think it's a hard barrier now).
I think PvP would have been a Chance to Balance Things. Now there are some skills that are ridiculously more powerful than others. Compare Beam overload and beam Fire at will. Or Transport warheads and surgical strikes.
And yes, bad Players always complain about other Players cheating or whatever. Surgucal Strikes 3 was compared with BFAW 3 - not taking into account that even SS2 is a command ability, SS3 a command abilitythat Needs to be captain trained - and should not be compared to a lt.cmd ability.
I think a healthy PvP base on tribble - and good communication with devs. To ensure that new abilities will fit in and not be over/underpowered.
PvP would mean more balanced abilities and some dedicated Players willing to invest Money into the game.
18 characters
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
If you want a PVP style game, play a game like WoT.
If you want a PVE style game, play a game like STO.
STO is not a PVP game, at all. This has been pretty much the case when the game was first released. As time goes go, this is becoming much more evident. STO is not designed to satisfy every niche, only a specific niche like everything other game out there.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
Have you considered this may not be the game for you then..?
This
I think you forget what gets players in the door there, Arionisa-STAR TREK.
Which is why the game is so story focused.
because nobody on-staff has the first clue how to NOT kill it in terms of a viable mode that generates revenue and buzz that brings people in and keeps them.
Yeah that sounds like the "holy grail" of game design to me. Got an example in mind?
they're not going to listen to the players, because what the players have been saying since 2010 doesn't fit what their statistical breakdowns tell them.
You mean the players who say 100 different things? Or did you have something else in mind?
Hell, the declining numbers of KDF in the game should be a red-alert problem,
Source plz.
in 2012 Cryptic stats showed 18% of active characters/players were playing or maining KDF.
in 2015, Cryptic released the infamous graph showing that 16% of players had KDF toons, 'active' wasn't tracked.
In 2016, Lead Developer Al "captaingeko" Rivera mentioned that the 16% number was incorrect, that it was far, far smaller. I believe the word choice was "Miniscule". 'miniscule' in common usage tends to indicate percentages less than ten...which fits observed presence of KDF on the map both in the after-midnight period, and in prime time and morning periods. Predominantly we see KDF ships and toons from European fleets, where in 2012, there were routinely more than a dozen instances in Qo'noS alone at any given time including the off-hours periods between 2300 PST and 0330 PST. Typically now, the Klingon homeworld has one, maybe two instances active, and relatively few players even compared to late 2011. (yes, some of us DO track this stuff.)
You really need to work on conciseness... I didn't bother actually reading the other two pages of stuff. Also, what was the actual quote from Geko?
I know some skills have been seriously nerfed - but mainly because they were implemented and never tested. Some good Players getting the max out of it. But obviously it'S the fault of PvPers...
Witout proper testing there are possibilities that were never meant to work that way. A friend of mine had boosted his Sci crit Chance to OVER 100% - they nerfed that, so one cannot obuse the System in that way (think it's a hard barrier now).
I think PvP would have been a Chance to Balance Things. Now there are some skills that are ridiculously more powerful than others. Compare Beam overload and beam Fire at will. Or Transport warheads and surgical strikes.
And yes, bad Players always complain about other Players cheating or whatever. Surgucal Strikes 3 was compared with BFAW 3 - not taking into account that even SS2 is a command ability, SS3 a command abilitythat Needs to be captain trained - and should not be compared to a lt.cmd ability.
I think a healthy PvP base on tribble - and good communication with devs. To ensure that new abilities will fit in and not be over/underpowered.
PvP would mean more balanced abilities and some dedicated Players willing to invest Money into the game.
Between 2012 and 2014 I was privilidged to be a trainee of some of the best PvP players in STO at the time. A group of them from several of the most prestigious PvP fleets of the time were actively involved in playtesting everything and crunching the numbers to determine what works and how. This began as a way to improve the performance of their fleets by identifying gear and tactical choices that produced the best results. (This was when the Sad Pandas were the first to win the No-Win Scenario, it got buffed, and they beat it again.)
What it identified was many 'broken' powers and gear. So they documented their results and created tests to demonstrate their findings in game. They presented not only their findings, but recommendations on how these issues could be reigned in. They even had a developer hanging out in OPvP channel chatting and queing with both premades and PuGs. Then after a couple of weeks the developer left STO, never to return. Nothing ever came of this massive player lead effort which involved the work of dozens of PvPers from the top ranked PvP fleets of the time and hundreds of casuals like myself.
Instead, we got Specialization and Reputation, which are fine game systems having the net result of insuring a newer player can never 'catch up' to players who have been grinding their toon for years. Back when T5 was the top ship, PvP was fixable, (according to the playtesters with whom I associated at the time.) Now there are so many gear and power issues that must be redone before any semblance of fair matches can be held that it is unlikely to ever be attempted.
By my reckoning, only a peer matching mechanism that prevents a level 60 newbie and a level 60 with all the spec trees unlocked can save PvP. If players have confidence they can have a fair fight they will at least be curious. This also means pulling premade teams out of the PuG queues.
I would prefer a level correcting mechanism such as the one in game that also looked at specialization and gear quality and mark. In this case, all characters in a match have their exp level and gear set, for that match only, to match the gear and exp of the least experienced character in that match. My idea, however, would require a more experienced player to lose some of her powers for the duration of a match, and players hate to have their powers greyed out even if it only makes the match fair, so I don't see that happening any time soon.
Is there interest in PvP in STO? Yes.
Is there a core system that allows fair PvP in STO? Again, yes. (And it is one of the best team-based starship PvP systems ever implemented in any game to date.)
Is it possible to 'fix' PvP to make it accessible and enjoyable for the majority of STO players? With every item added to the game and every new specialization tree that comes out the task of correction becomes ever more difficult. Had these new powers been implimented while considering their impact on game balance there would be no need to correct them. Now that so much has been done without regard to its impact on game balance, it may be somewhat more difficult.
This is no longer a case of trying to get your horse to enter a burning barn, but one of finding a stable for your horse in a pile of ash that used to be a barn.
I know some skills have been seriously nerfed - but mainly because they were implemented and never tested. Some good Players getting the max out of it. But obviously it'S the fault of PvPers...
Witout proper testing there are possibilities that were never meant to work that way. A friend of mine had boosted his Sci crit Chance to OVER 100% - they nerfed that, so one cannot obuse the System in that way (think it's a hard barrier now).
I think PvP would have been a Chance to Balance Things. Now there are some skills that are ridiculously more powerful than others. Compare Beam overload and beam Fire at will. Or Transport warheads and surgical strikes.
And yes, bad Players always complain about other Players cheating or whatever. Surgucal Strikes 3 was compared with BFAW 3 - not taking into account that even SS2 is a command ability, SS3 a command abilitythat Needs to be captain trained - and should not be compared to a lt.cmd ability.
I think a healthy PvP base on tribble - and good communication with devs. To ensure that new abilities will fit in and not be over/underpowered.
PvP would mean more balanced abilities and some dedicated Players willing to invest Money into the game.
This doesn't work. Balanced for PvP does not mean balanced for PvE. If we balanced this game for PvP...I mean REALLY balanced it, PvE queues would basically end up being impossible. The only way they can balance the game for both is to either dual stat all items (which with their dev power is an impossibly long task) or have seperate PvP only ships that comes pre-set and can't be changed (which the PvP community has utterly rejected). Actually there is a 3rd one...which is to make NPC ships follow all player rules AND get the AI good enough to act like players...which is at this point sci fi realm. Also using that community to balance things will result in all sorts of bad...because most of them are tact crybabies and anything that makes them lose is instantly labeled as broken. They can do 1 million damage in 2 seconds in an alpha strike...nope, not broken. You can do 100k damage through shields with a sci ability? Oh how they will cry that it is broken. So all in all...a bad idea. Getting the DPS leagues input on what is broken or not would be way more productive.
PvE impossible?
Seriously: storyline you can do in Tier 3 ships and White gear without Problem. And PvE Queues - most advanced ones can be done with a Team that does an average 15k DPS. And any character can do that - no matter which Profession.
In other MMOs there are different classes with distinct different roles. Translate that to this game: Engineers should be the tanks, Scis the Debuffers and Tacs the Killers. This game doesn't Need the other classes as everything is feasable with tacs alone. Hence the tac/DPS boom. And yes, I did use my Tacs for fun and PvEs and my engineers and scis for PvP as they had better survivability.
There are also clear PvP builds - a high burst damage Bird of Prey has no role to Play in the PvE missions. Ships that use BFAW are mostly stars (with a few scatter volley and a few sci builds in between)
As the OP mentioned World of tanks - if a tank is completely overpowered it'll be played more often than others, have better stats and so on - wargaming then nerf it. People who Play the tank cry for a while. But as that is a clear PvP they have to act.
Cryptic did an amazing Job with the revamp of captain skills. I am sure they COULD do something similar with BOff abilities as well if they take the time.
18 characters
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
PvP is going great on console so far. Console is always big on PvP and it wouldn't be an impossible task at all to balance the skills and stats appropriately. Like most MMOs different caps, skill durations, etc etc. It wouldn't affect PVE one bit so it's a silly comparison to make. At worst, we end up having a pvp set.... oh noooo?
However as that one poster said on page 1, it's obvious from looking at the skill tree and flying cryptic ships that they have no clue what a build is or balance is like. Stacking invulnerability etc is hilariously obviously dumb.
We will continue to fire our ques 24/7 on console until Cryptic beats us into submission. Then we'll go play almost any other game since about every console game comes with pvp nowadays.
I know some skills have been seriously nerfed - but mainly because they were implemented and never tested. Some good Players getting the max out of it. But obviously it'S the fault of PvPers...
Witout proper testing there are possibilities that were never meant to work that way. A friend of mine had boosted his Sci crit Chance to OVER 100% - they nerfed that, so one cannot obuse the System in that way (think it's a hard barrier now).
I think PvP would have been a Chance to Balance Things. Now there are some skills that are ridiculously more powerful than others. Compare Beam overload and beam Fire at will. Or Transport warheads and surgical strikes.
And yes, bad Players always complain about other Players cheating or whatever. Surgucal Strikes 3 was compared with BFAW 3 - not taking into account that even SS2 is a command ability, SS3 a command abilitythat Needs to be captain trained - and should not be compared to a lt.cmd ability.
I think a healthy PvP base on tribble - and good communication with devs. To ensure that new abilities will fit in and not be over/underpowered.
PvP would mean more balanced abilities and some dedicated Players willing to invest Money into the game.
Between 2012 and 2014 I was privilidged to be a trainee of some of the best PvP players in STO at the time. A group of them from several of the most prestigious PvP fleets of the time were actively involved in playtesting everything and crunching the numbers to determine what works and how. This began as a way to improve the performance of their fleets by identifying gear and tactical choices that produced the best results. (This was when the Sad Pandas were the first to win the No-Win Scenario, it got buffed, and they beat it again.)
What it identified was many 'broken' powers and gear. So they documented their results and created tests to demonstrate their findings in game. They presented not only their findings, but recommendations on how these issues could be reigned in. They even had a developer hanging out in OPvP channel chatting and queing with both premades and PuGs. Then after a couple of weeks the developer left STO, never to return. Nothing ever came of this massive player lead effort which involved the work of dozens of PvPers from the top ranked PvP fleets of the time and hundreds of casuals like myself.
Instead, we got Specialization and Reputation, which are fine game systems having the net result of insuring a newer player can never 'catch up' to players who have been grinding their toon for years. Back when T5 was the top ship, PvP was fixable, (according to the playtesters with whom I associated at the time.) Now there are so many gear and power issues that must be redone before any semblance of fair matches can be held that it is unlikely to ever be attempted.
By my reckoning, only a peer matching mechanism that prevents a level 60 newbie and a level 60 with all the spec trees unlocked can save PvP. If players have confidence they can have a fair fight they will at least be curious. This also means pulling premade teams out of the PuG queues.
I would prefer a level correcting mechanism such as the one in game that also looked at specialization and gear quality and mark. In this case, all characters in a match have their exp level and gear set, for that match only, to match the gear and exp of the least experienced character in that match. My idea, however, would require a more experienced player to lose some of her powers for the duration of a match, and players hate to have their powers greyed out even if it only makes the match fair, so I don't see that happening any time soon.
Is there interest in PvP in STO? Yes.
Is there a core system that allows fair PvP in STO? Again, yes. (And it is one of the best team-based starship PvP systems ever implemented in any game to date.)
Is it possible to 'fix' PvP to make it accessible and enjoyable for the majority of STO players? With every item added to the game and every new specialization tree that comes out the task of correction becomes ever more difficult. Had these new powers been implimented while considering their impact on game balance there would be no need to correct them. Now that so much has been done without regard to its impact on game balance, it may be somewhat more difficult.
This is no longer a case of trying to get your horse to enter a burning barn, but one of finding a stable for your horse in a pile of ash that used to be a barn.
No this is not hard to balance. It just requires a rework. As you stated, the specializations and T5+ ships create an overpowered environment. That is simple to fix. There is no need for any PvE console or Power in PvP. So the best way to balance this just for PvP, is to leave the PvE stuff just the way it is. Then implement PvP ships, gear, skill tree, traits and specializations. Then in PvP maps, everything switches from the PvE setup to the PvP setup.
They could take the existing ships and gear and just swap it over to PvP stats and traits. The only difference would be, that you can't use fleet gear or consoles that come with ships or from lockboxes. They could even do a double ships release. A PvE version and a PvP version. The only problem that comes with this, is that people will complain about not being able to use their OP PvE gear for PvP.
As you said, it's all in game. It's just a matter of using the resources that are there. Then limiting what can be used for PvP. At this, I'd leave it at UR Mk XII maximum starting out. This would give people time to toy around and play with PvP.
And with the PvE version and PvP versions of ships. It would allow Cryptic to gain more profit from ships sales.
The only other problem I see here, is people wanting to use reputation gear and fleet gear. Which I suppose they could do by adding a PvP versions in to the game. Just make the reputation pieces cost PvP marks. Then add in some fleet projects to unlock Fleet PvP gear.
1) Played WOT and wow what a gimmick they have going there. Want to see the defintion of PTW try it out.
2) Really bad design if you are just coming into the game try hitting something. There is no clue at all how to use the weapons i.e. lead,elevation, range. Yeah a setting that would show that would helpthe learning curve. Oh yeah getting tossed into a battle and getting blown up in the first 4 seconds does not equal fun.
3) PVP is DEAD here and should be. The cries of "Balance" in PVP effectivly carried changes into PVE where they were not needed as the gear was not seperate for the most part. You want to save PVP here? Solutions and really sound ones have been put forth in many threads. In a nut shell ship level cap to T-5 max and no T5-U or T-6 no fleet ships or reward or event ships either, gear and weapons limted to what came with the ship. This would make PVP a test of skills not builds.
I for one would like to see cross platform PVP.
PvP is going great on console so far. Console is always big on PvP and it wouldn't be an impossible task at all to balance the skills and stats appropriately. Like most MMOs different caps, skill durations, etc etc. It wouldn't affect PVE one bit so it's a silly comparison to make. At worst, we end up having a pvp set.... oh noooo?
However as that one poster said on page 1, it's obvious from looking at the skill tree and flying cryptic ships that they have no clue what a build is or balance is like. Stacking invulnerability etc is hilariously obviously dumb.
We will continue to fire our ques 24/7 on console until Cryptic beats us into submission. Then we'll go play almost any other game since about every console game comes with pvp nowadays.
Power creep has not set into the console side. When it does you will sing a different tune. As far as builds go yeah seriousely PC's players know how to build the consoles well your still learning.
PvP is going great on console so far. Console is always big on PvP and it wouldn't be an impossible task at all to balance the skills and stats appropriately. Like most MMOs different caps, skill durations, etc etc. It wouldn't affect PVE one bit so it's a silly comparison to make. At worst, we end up having a pvp set.... oh noooo?
However as that one poster said on page 1, it's obvious from looking at the skill tree and flying cryptic ships that they have no clue what a build is or balance is like. Stacking invulnerability etc is hilariously obviously dumb.
We will continue to fire our ques 24/7 on console until Cryptic beats us into submission. Then we'll go play almost any other game since about every console game comes with pvp nowadays.
Power creep has not set into the console side. When it does you will sing a different tune. As far as builds go yeah seriously PC's players know how to build the consoles well your still learning.
I doubt it. I'll still say that Cryptic doesn't know how to build ships nor balance properly. Only difference is now I'll say it's too late and wave from aforementioned games. The beat us into submission reference is their slow inevitable release of power creep and lack of planning/forethought.
And there isn't much to learn. We have 1/3rd of the content. Min/Max over a couple beers with an abacus and the wiki open.
When STO went gold in 2009 the only thing klinks could do was PvP, literally. There was nothing else at all. That was fine since most of the beta and early Klingon players in STO were all about PvP with the Feds in a war setting. We did, however, want a more comprehensive setting, a war zone on the main map that would allow for territorial conquest and such. It never happened though there were promises from Cryptic staff that this was in the works. Just about all those people have left Cryptic and nothing has changed in STO.
Recently opened a new account in STO as a Klingon, jumped into a PvP map just yesterday and was amazed to be in the very same room I'd been in back in 2009 (the "PvEvP" Borg room). Nothing had changed except for the fact that no one was in the room at all. All the PvP queues are dead too.
I think PvP in STO is dead, folks. Sad but true. Long dead. It would almost be smarter for Cryptic to remove those old PvP rooms and just call it like it is.
If you want a PVP style game, play a game like WoT.
If you want a PVE style game, play a game like STO.
STO is not a PVP game, at all. This has been pretty much the case when the game was first released. As time goes go, this is becoming much more evident. STO is not designed to satisfy every niche, only a specific niche like everything other game out there.
No, STO's PVP was not like this at release. We used to have quite a bit of it the earlier you go in STO's lifetime.
KDF & Feds used to square off each other as they leveled up, with their Warrior / Lieutenants, with their Commander, Captain, and Rear Admiral equivalent characters. Every tier, the guys queued up in Arena, Capture and Hold (or my preferred term, "Cap & 'Splode"). In the game's old level cap of 40 in those days, you could take your freshly made Lv40 and hit the queues right away, no problem.
Kerrat, the Serengetti of STO, was bustling as KDF & Feds preyed on each other. What turned out to be something like a lone KDF BOP picking off a few PVE Feds in Kerrat soon attracts that Fed's buddies. Then that escalated as more KDF showed up hearing of more and more Feds in Kerrat. Chaos ensues.
You had Arena and Capture and Hold instances to queue up for and get into fights with. The interesting part back then was that with the fewer KDF players, as soon as you joined the queue, you were counting down to join. There were soooooo many Feds looking for PVP back then that they actually had a queue wait time.
All this PVP slowly bled away over time. Neglect by Cryptic. Ignoring the warnings of Power Creep and Balance issues. Do recall back then, that doing something like Infected Space Elite was not done in 2 minutes. We were not doing the original, vastly different Crystalline Catastrophe in 1 minute. We were not blowing up ships as soon as we came out of Full Impulse. That came later with Power Creep being piled on over the years.
It also killed balance in PVP. I dread to think about what a new player that is still interested in what PVP remains right now, has to do to be prepared. There's always the steep learning curve of the variation of play and builds, on top of pace, in PVP. But with all the premium benefits (lockbox traits, lockbox abilities, etc), power creep in ships and abilities, it gets stupid. Even Epic Gear was a breaking issue. Originally Cryptic said that Epic Gear was not going to be the end-all-be-all, domination in stats. This was a concern to PVP back in those days. Then when Epic Gear was first allowed, it became immediately evident that it went right out of the window: Power Creep FULL SPEED AHEAD.
Anyways, the further back you went in STO's history live, the more lively PVP was. It was not DOA when this game went live. It went dead in around the Delta Rising timeframe.
I remember another MMO from Cryptic Studios, it was called Shaiya. I played it back in 2009 - 2011 and it had a PvP system
with 2 fractions fighting each others exclusivly.
STO followed the same concept and because of that they created a 2nd fraction "the Klingons"
There had been always issues with number balancing within the fractions. I never played WoW but i know they have
Alliance and Horde.
It is spliting your customers (means your business) into two. You need two profiles of customers, otherwise they will
choose the same side and never get any challenge.
Obviously the "good" side is heavily favored, players develop a better relationship to their caracters so to speak.
The "evil" side is left for rational players and internet-nolifes who are actually aware of it.
I play STO since end of June, it always feels like a catch up, lvling, reputation, doffing and low Zen exchange rate.
If i spent 200$ i would be somewhat ready, but only to have no PvP or with those who would need make me pay 500$.
They had the dill exchange rate at 200, had the 4 hour contraband, have their LTS giving them 20000 Zen.
Its a question of effort. I just settle down and laugh while afking in Mirror Invasion.
I can only PvP with Tier 5 ships traitless + Mk XII VR gear immo.
KDF & Feds used to square off each other as they leveled up, with their Warrior / Lieutenants, with their Commander, Captain, and Rear Admiral equivalent characters. Every tier, the guys queued up in Arena, Capture and Hold (or my preferred term, "Cap & 'Splode"). In the game's old level cap of 40 in those days, you could take your freshly made Lv40 and hit the queues right away, no problem.
And now for the non-rose tinted version.....
This was also back when many T3 skills cost a fortune because you had to get lucky and find them on a random Boff. Also it was before Doffing so the supply of Boffs was highly limited.
I actually agree that you need to separate how you work abilities for pve content, and pvp content with separate stats. You don't really play pve or pvp content the same, since a nerf or buff to make something usable in pve or pvp context can make it either overpowered/underpowered in the other area. As suh using separate stats makes you able to freely balance each area of these two types of content without fear of how it affects the other area.
Now I can definitely see where the devs could make a good system that works off a single stat system that governs how abilities work in both pve an pvp content, but in the end over the course of several rounds of buffing/nerfing sessions that system might not hold up as well in the balance deparment. Even if it would take a ton of work to rework the system into a dual stat system, which could be done where it literally has abilities check what type of map you are in (pve or pvp) for what stats they use, but in the end I think that work would fair better an cause less issues in the long run as well as allow the two sets of content to be more balanced overall. As a buff to one ability in a single stat system in pve or pvp, very well could make that same ability overpowered in the other content, and then result in a nerf that makes it underpowered/unviable later on to reduce its power.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
fully agree - when PvP was still on, I spent a lot of Money on the game to be competitive (it is pay to win after all) and spent more time playing. Now I have most T5 ships unlocked - which suddently weren't competitive anymore. New and unbalanced skills introduced, many PvP Players left and the Queues are dead. I still log on to check if the fleet is doing ok, Play for 10 mins, then log off to Play World of tanks or armoured warfare.
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
this pretty much is a perfect example why it doesn't make sense to fight for pvp in here:
- claims like once had been made on witches lol
- false to no information
- no examples nor sources
- twisting facts
- nothing of all of that lets me think of star trek spirit
...welcome to sto forums...
and i won't drop examples, why should i?!... on nowadays sto forums xD...
Well said, and I agree it wouldn't be simple to implement. But, this game could be so much better if it had a pvp like that and would generate a lot of money at the same time.
My character Tsin'xing
oh, forgot childish lol... well, as for me, i just know how to adapt :P
try harder kid and don't forget to scream in need of diaper change lol....
dear console newbies:
forget about sto pvp, there'll happen nothing! and that, to a good degree, is because of what u can take from different witchhunters in this very thread, as it is exemplary.
as soon any patchnote would include something for pvp again u can bet on these individuals will make the forum burn. indeed they seem to have as much clue about the topic as the devs themselves lmao (means none)...
not wanted:
- balance (yep, even in terms of npc's. those need to get roflstomped)
- pvp (as it would need the game to be balanced throughout and people would have fun with something witchhunters don't understand, so: let it burn)
wanted:
- new costumes xDDD.....................
nuffsaid
Also, I'd like to say that both war thunder and armored warfare are better games at this point in time. WoT was great when it was new/unique.
Could be me, but...
They just get less sober.
can't watch the vid from here, but there u go
Best leave it that way, unless Cryptic want to create a vanilla pvp server with every item/ship in the game made available to everyone for free...
I know some skills have been seriously nerfed - but mainly because they were implemented and never tested. Some good Players getting the max out of it. But obviously it'S the fault of PvPers...
Witout proper testing there are possibilities that were never meant to work that way. A friend of mine had boosted his Sci crit Chance to OVER 100% - they nerfed that, so one cannot obuse the System in that way (think it's a hard barrier now).
I think PvP would have been a Chance to Balance Things. Now there are some skills that are ridiculously more powerful than others. Compare Beam overload and beam Fire at will. Or Transport warheads and surgical strikes.
And yes, bad Players always complain about other Players cheating or whatever. Surgucal Strikes 3 was compared with BFAW 3 - not taking into account that even SS2 is a command ability, SS3 a command abilitythat Needs to be captain trained - and should not be compared to a lt.cmd ability.
I think a healthy PvP base on tribble - and good communication with devs. To ensure that new abilities will fit in and not be over/underpowered.
PvP would mean more balanced abilities and some dedicated Players willing to invest Money into the game.
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
If you want a PVP style game, play a game like WoT.
If you want a PVE style game, play a game like STO.
STO is not a PVP game, at all. This has been pretty much the case when the game was first released. As time goes go, this is becoming much more evident. STO is not designed to satisfy every niche, only a specific niche like everything other game out there.
My character Tsin'xing
Between 2012 and 2014 I was privilidged to be a trainee of some of the best PvP players in STO at the time. A group of them from several of the most prestigious PvP fleets of the time were actively involved in playtesting everything and crunching the numbers to determine what works and how. This began as a way to improve the performance of their fleets by identifying gear and tactical choices that produced the best results. (This was when the Sad Pandas were the first to win the No-Win Scenario, it got buffed, and they beat it again.)
What it identified was many 'broken' powers and gear. So they documented their results and created tests to demonstrate their findings in game. They presented not only their findings, but recommendations on how these issues could be reigned in. They even had a developer hanging out in OPvP channel chatting and queing with both premades and PuGs. Then after a couple of weeks the developer left STO, never to return. Nothing ever came of this massive player lead effort which involved the work of dozens of PvPers from the top ranked PvP fleets of the time and hundreds of casuals like myself.
Instead, we got Specialization and Reputation, which are fine game systems having the net result of insuring a newer player can never 'catch up' to players who have been grinding their toon for years. Back when T5 was the top ship, PvP was fixable, (according to the playtesters with whom I associated at the time.) Now there are so many gear and power issues that must be redone before any semblance of fair matches can be held that it is unlikely to ever be attempted.
By my reckoning, only a peer matching mechanism that prevents a level 60 newbie and a level 60 with all the spec trees unlocked can save PvP. If players have confidence they can have a fair fight they will at least be curious. This also means pulling premade teams out of the PuG queues.
I would prefer a level correcting mechanism such as the one in game that also looked at specialization and gear quality and mark. In this case, all characters in a match have their exp level and gear set, for that match only, to match the gear and exp of the least experienced character in that match. My idea, however, would require a more experienced player to lose some of her powers for the duration of a match, and players hate to have their powers greyed out even if it only makes the match fair, so I don't see that happening any time soon.
Is there interest in PvP in STO? Yes.
Is there a core system that allows fair PvP in STO? Again, yes. (And it is one of the best team-based starship PvP systems ever implemented in any game to date.)
Is it possible to 'fix' PvP to make it accessible and enjoyable for the majority of STO players? With every item added to the game and every new specialization tree that comes out the task of correction becomes ever more difficult. Had these new powers been implimented while considering their impact on game balance there would be no need to correct them. Now that so much has been done without regard to its impact on game balance, it may be somewhat more difficult.
This is no longer a case of trying to get your horse to enter a burning barn, but one of finding a stable for your horse in a pile of ash that used to be a barn.
PvE impossible?
Seriously: storyline you can do in Tier 3 ships and White gear without Problem. And PvE Queues - most advanced ones can be done with a Team that does an average 15k DPS. And any character can do that - no matter which Profession.
In other MMOs there are different classes with distinct different roles. Translate that to this game: Engineers should be the tanks, Scis the Debuffers and Tacs the Killers. This game doesn't Need the other classes as everything is feasable with tacs alone. Hence the tac/DPS boom. And yes, I did use my Tacs for fun and PvEs and my engineers and scis for PvP as they had better survivability.
There are also clear PvP builds - a high burst damage Bird of Prey has no role to Play in the PvE missions. Ships that use BFAW are mostly stars (with a few scatter volley and a few sci builds in between)
As the OP mentioned World of tanks - if a tank is completely overpowered it'll be played more often than others, have better stats and so on - wargaming then nerf it. People who Play the tank cry for a while. But as that is a clear PvP they have to act.
Cryptic did an amazing Job with the revamp of captain skills. I am sure they COULD do something similar with BOff abilities as well if they take the time.
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
However as that one poster said on page 1, it's obvious from looking at the skill tree and flying cryptic ships that they have no clue what a build is or balance is like. Stacking invulnerability etc is hilariously obviously dumb.
We will continue to fire our ques 24/7 on console until Cryptic beats us into submission. Then we'll go play almost any other game since about every console game comes with pvp nowadays.
No this is not hard to balance. It just requires a rework. As you stated, the specializations and T5+ ships create an overpowered environment. That is simple to fix. There is no need for any PvE console or Power in PvP. So the best way to balance this just for PvP, is to leave the PvE stuff just the way it is. Then implement PvP ships, gear, skill tree, traits and specializations. Then in PvP maps, everything switches from the PvE setup to the PvP setup.
They could take the existing ships and gear and just swap it over to PvP stats and traits. The only difference would be, that you can't use fleet gear or consoles that come with ships or from lockboxes. They could even do a double ships release. A PvE version and a PvP version. The only problem that comes with this, is that people will complain about not being able to use their OP PvE gear for PvP.
As you said, it's all in game. It's just a matter of using the resources that are there. Then limiting what can be used for PvP. At this, I'd leave it at UR Mk XII maximum starting out. This would give people time to toy around and play with PvP.
And with the PvE version and PvP versions of ships. It would allow Cryptic to gain more profit from ships sales.
The only other problem I see here, is people wanting to use reputation gear and fleet gear. Which I suppose they could do by adding a PvP versions in to the game. Just make the reputation pieces cost PvP marks. Then add in some fleet projects to unlock Fleet PvP gear.
2) Really bad design if you are just coming into the game try hitting something. There is no clue at all how to use the weapons i.e. lead,elevation, range. Yeah a setting that would show that would helpthe learning curve. Oh yeah getting tossed into a battle and getting blown up in the first 4 seconds does not equal fun.
3) PVP is DEAD here and should be. The cries of "Balance" in PVP effectivly carried changes into PVE where they were not needed as the gear was not seperate for the most part. You want to save PVP here? Solutions and really sound ones have been put forth in many threads. In a nut shell ship level cap to T-5 max and no T5-U or T-6 no fleet ships or reward or event ships either, gear and weapons limted to what came with the ship. This would make PVP a test of skills not builds.
I for one would like to see cross platform PVP.
Power creep has not set into the console side. When it does you will sing a different tune. As far as builds go yeah seriousely PC's players know how to build the consoles well your still learning.
I doubt it. I'll still say that Cryptic doesn't know how to build ships nor balance properly. Only difference is now I'll say it's too late and wave from aforementioned games. The beat us into submission reference is their slow inevitable release of power creep and lack of planning/forethought.
And there isn't much to learn. We have 1/3rd of the content. Min/Max over a couple beers with an abacus and the wiki open.
Recently opened a new account in STO as a Klingon, jumped into a PvP map just yesterday and was amazed to be in the very same room I'd been in back in 2009 (the "PvEvP" Borg room). Nothing had changed except for the fact that no one was in the room at all. All the PvP queues are dead too.
I think PvP in STO is dead, folks. Sad but true. Long dead. It would almost be smarter for Cryptic to remove those old PvP rooms and just call it like it is.
No, STO's PVP was not like this at release. We used to have quite a bit of it the earlier you go in STO's lifetime.
KDF & Feds used to square off each other as they leveled up, with their Warrior / Lieutenants, with their Commander, Captain, and Rear Admiral equivalent characters. Every tier, the guys queued up in Arena, Capture and Hold (or my preferred term, "Cap & 'Splode"). In the game's old level cap of 40 in those days, you could take your freshly made Lv40 and hit the queues right away, no problem.
Kerrat, the Serengetti of STO, was bustling as KDF & Feds preyed on each other. What turned out to be something like a lone KDF BOP picking off a few PVE Feds in Kerrat soon attracts that Fed's buddies. Then that escalated as more KDF showed up hearing of more and more Feds in Kerrat. Chaos ensues.
You had Arena and Capture and Hold instances to queue up for and get into fights with. The interesting part back then was that with the fewer KDF players, as soon as you joined the queue, you were counting down to join. There were soooooo many Feds looking for PVP back then that they actually had a queue wait time.
All this PVP slowly bled away over time. Neglect by Cryptic. Ignoring the warnings of Power Creep and Balance issues. Do recall back then, that doing something like Infected Space Elite was not done in 2 minutes. We were not doing the original, vastly different Crystalline Catastrophe in 1 minute. We were not blowing up ships as soon as we came out of Full Impulse. That came later with Power Creep being piled on over the years.
It also killed balance in PVP. I dread to think about what a new player that is still interested in what PVP remains right now, has to do to be prepared. There's always the steep learning curve of the variation of play and builds, on top of pace, in PVP. But with all the premium benefits (lockbox traits, lockbox abilities, etc), power creep in ships and abilities, it gets stupid. Even Epic Gear was a breaking issue. Originally Cryptic said that Epic Gear was not going to be the end-all-be-all, domination in stats. This was a concern to PVP back in those days. Then when Epic Gear was first allowed, it became immediately evident that it went right out of the window: Power Creep FULL SPEED AHEAD.
Anyways, the further back you went in STO's history live, the more lively PVP was. It was not DOA when this game went live. It went dead in around the Delta Rising timeframe.
with 2 fractions fighting each others exclusivly.
STO followed the same concept and because of that they created a 2nd fraction "the Klingons"
There had been always issues with number balancing within the fractions. I never played WoW but i know they have
Alliance and Horde.
It is spliting your customers (means your business) into two. You need two profiles of customers, otherwise they will
choose the same side and never get any challenge.
Obviously the "good" side is heavily favored, players develop a better relationship to their caracters so to speak.
The "evil" side is left for rational players and internet-nolifes who are actually aware of it.
I play STO since end of June, it always feels like a catch up, lvling, reputation, doffing and low Zen exchange rate.
If i spent 200$ i would be somewhat ready, but only to have no PvP or with those who would need make me pay 500$.
They had the dill exchange rate at 200, had the 4 hour contraband, have their LTS giving them 20000 Zen.
Its a question of effort. I just settle down and laugh while afking in Mirror Invasion.
I can only PvP with Tier 5 ships traitless + Mk XII VR gear immo.
This was also back when many T3 skills cost a fortune because you had to get lucky and find them on a random Boff. Also it was before Doffing so the supply of Boffs was highly limited.
My character Tsin'xing
Now I can definitely see where the devs could make a good system that works off a single stat system that governs how abilities work in both pve an pvp content, but in the end over the course of several rounds of buffing/nerfing sessions that system might not hold up as well in the balance deparment. Even if it would take a ton of work to rework the system into a dual stat system, which could be done where it literally has abilities check what type of map you are in (pve or pvp) for what stats they use, but in the end I think that work would fair better an cause less issues in the long run as well as allow the two sets of content to be more balanced overall. As a buff to one ability in a single stat system in pve or pvp, very well could make that same ability overpowered in the other content, and then result in a nerf that makes it underpowered/unviable later on to reduce its power.