Nobody wants to play with griefer trolls who knowingly exploit broken mechanics and take pleasure in annoying others over the safety of the internet. The biggest flaws in STO PvP are the players themselves.
No, not many would.
And anyone who has done a little PvP lately knows its completely out of control these days.
There are many who are flying exploit builds.
(Which is part of the reason I fly a FBP/Kinetic FB build to PvP -- Too punish those who would abuse exploits)
Thing is many of the PvP instigated nerfs were actually healthy for the game. They helped keep things balanced to a small degree.
Not always admittedly (The first Great Science Nerf put science into the gutter for years) but in a lot of cases its kept Powercreep from ballooning out of control.
Or that was the side effect.
And now that Devs will probably never again listen to the PvP community in terms of nerfs (because they've gone all-in on selling powercreep and know PvP is no longer profitable and there are very few players left to appease),
it's like the game has become a free for all on DPS.
And they keep adding new powers/abilities that can be easily exploited in PvP.
Or be used in PvE to keep upping the top end of the DPS scale. I mean, in the last 6 months it's gone from crazy to ludicrous.
And then people want to complain about things being too easy in PvE.
(which is okay - but we shouldn't be surprised as to how and why this is now the case)
There is very little resistance/objections to new powers now, partly because PvP'ers will never be listened to again and most of them have already left.
Sure, "some" of the DPS community is pretty good at reporting these types of things...but they aren't nearly as active as the once large PvP community was at calling out broken items and equipment.
Because they aren't on the receiving end of these powers.
And their targets have such large HP pools that they don't see the effects as drastically.
PvP'ers notice this stuff more because of their inherently smaller HP's.
So in a way, ignoring PvP, is not really healthy for the overall game. And I believe intensifies/expedites the issues that unfettered powercreep can bring.
on topic (not relating to wot, as i don't play that, but to wows):
that tier style could work with current system and ships maybe, if certain setups would take places of modules (note to those unfamiliar with: have to be researched and bought with ingame currency) from wows. here one could distinct between gear- and boffsetups/modules, so each ships would have 2 levels of possible alternatives.
another question would be if to release exclusive ships for that style or flagged pvp ships, or to add like a pvp filter to existing ships (as another tab maybe?), where u then could setup the ships u have for pvp. techtree could be included in personal tab and/or shipyard as well.
but then, with the setups the problem starts: which to take, in what combinations and with what contained for what ships? what levels of meta-stuff to involve in what quality. doffs, traits, boxstuff yay or nay, etc..... (imo: non of all that!) also which standard mk (xii btw imo lol), and so on. nothing one not could overcome, but not done on the doorstep as well, so to say (note: better only take non-boxstuff imo!).
careers, in comparison to wows, would be tied to their shiptypes. so tacs in escorts, scis in sci-ships and engies in cruisers. destroyers could maybe set with hybridsetups or even hybrid-captnpower-combos (xcept for subnuc and alpha!!!! ) for less boff abilities? quite some possibilities to ensure or kill balance here overall.
i think that alerady could make it, but i also think there are much better ways to get something worthwhile back again. the fundamental setup seems too different for a 1to1 adaption, so to get it in exactly such shape like wows, it would come down to code a whole new game.
nevertheless, one thing's 4 sure: i'd play it!
It's not salvageable, because even if the mechanical problems were solved, and even if Cryptic put some effort into making it interesting and relevant, they spent six years chasing off the people that would make it a decent community by catering to exactly the sort of asshats that exploit broken mechanics knowingly against new players to stroke their shriveled egoes while patting themselves on the back for how 'Elite' they are for being able to grind 40 hours a week on the latest new shiny powers that don't have counters.
The problem is deep enough, and extensive enough, that Cryptic can't fix it and without the mechanical fixes, (or even with them) there simply aren't enough of the 'good' players (reasonably skilled players with a positive, helping attitude and some ability to organize) to form the core of a replacement for the community that has died in the game.
the long-term hands all know; we tried. We tried to keep things going, we tried to present player-initiatives to bring people in and help them get their boots under themselves-and guess what?
it didn't work. No backup, you know? drowned out or silenced by the bystanders who always show up in PvP related threads to say "STO isn't a PvP Game" and "PvP is full of douchebags!!" and, of course... "PvP Nurfed mY stuffz!! HATE THEM FOREVER!!!"
eventually it's just not worth the effort anymore, because you get to where you understand that it's a lost cause.
So you have given up in disgust, and now rationalize it as having been doomed from the start? I've read a lot of suggestions that were made in the past and many of them are utterly ridiculous in terms of how much work it'd be for the devs. Such suggestions ARE doomed because the devs have no reason to WANT to look at them closely.
Realistically, I have only ever seen one method of "leveling the playing field" that actually works in games where the core of game play is collecting stuff to make yourself awesome.... Player rankings. These may or may not get reset periodically, but they're based on your win-loss records in PvP. using that to match people in queues would be useful.
Gear scores are hopeless. They ignore player skill. Skill is a more powerful weapon than a disruptor autocannon...
Realistically, I have only ever seen one method of "leveling the playing field" that actually works in games where the core of game play is collecting stuff to make yourself awesome.... Player rankings. These may or may not get reset periodically, but they're based on your win-loss records in PvP. using that to match people in queues would be useful.
It would be useful...if there were enough people in the queue to actually divide into ranks and still have enough players to start a game.
But you do make an important point there. The core of MMORPG gameplay is collecting stuff that makes you awesome. People who dismiss that as "pointless grinding" are missing the point of not only this game but the entire genre.
The problem of PvP in STO is then not that all the stuff you can collect makes it "unfair," but that PvP tends to attract the kind of people who don't like to collect stuff. And that's because it doesn't give the kind of reward that would attract people who do like to collect stuff.
Some good points made over the last couple threads. Also some bad input. To put it simply players want to talk PvP cause they like PvP. It doesn't threaten PvE. It may be hopeless. At least try to group up with your party on this thread instead of blaming the entirety of either group for the problems/attitude. It's the Devs (Geko mostly it seems, the tact of a small child) who fostered this community and built this horrible attitude on both sides of the fence with several oddball decisions over the years. Insulting each other (Disregarding anyone who likes either etc) means that YOU are the worst, not whatever fictional PvP/PvE player you're thinking of. Truth is, players are players. The players who come to post here probably have some sort of emotional attachment to the game. That's good. You don't want to chase off anyone, for any reason outside of sheer abuse/exploits/insults, or you end up with a ever dwindling, ever more cynical playerbase... And using the "broken" abilities are not exploits. It's a result of the Dev's laziness/lack of forethought/lack of care. They simply shouldn't be. That doesn't mean burn down the PvE planet. It just means Immunity can only occur once X minutes for PvP or some other bs no matter how many you stack. Simple Problems. Simple Solutions. They are about 800 simple solutions too late on PC and I'm sure that Geko yelled at every "14 year old min/maxer" working under him when they ever suggested a thing.
As it stands on console PvP is going well cause powercreep hasn't blown our heads off yet. BUT several several console players are looking up PvP. We love to "PvP" on console, why? Almost every single game we play is multiplayer. Almost every single thing we touch is in party chat. We came for an MMO. Not just a RPG. Because of this attitude/BS on the forums and the grim outlook on the future of PvP/PvE several players have already quit the game in the 1st month, after buying several T6s etc because they have heard that all of their time is going to be wasted. They will never have anything to works towards. They will never have any fun. They will never get Dev Support. They will never be apart of the community and there certainly isn't any hope of them fitting in here cause they are just too hopeful to hang out in these 6 year old forums wishing for content of either type. If they even dare to show up here with hope (How dare they on a Brand New Game to them) they are ruthlessly educated.
Combine all the console players who want to play multiplayer (Multiple Players, with and against. Not shooting static reskinned mobs) with the console players who want PvE content that isn't a TRIBBLE clusterfuck of incompetence and you can easily see why the population has taken a massive hit already. Several "active" 300+ member fleets with only 20 people on at anytime already. It's awful.
To clarify on the PvE content since someone will ask or say launch was a success. Last weeks maintenance broke the game entirely, completely unplayable for days. Several players still experiencing bugs this week (Can't assign skills at 50+, Can't accept Questchains, Can't get their free T2, T3 ships etc etc etc. The list of gamebreaking is insanely long) Those are just the best highlights. Game has had a laundry list of gamebreaking bugs since day 1 and it only got WORSE. Crazy. Crazy.
The only person who is happy here is Geko. He can put anything decent for PvP behind the PvE content and point to that when he grabs numbers. Of course PvP hasn't made money. It was never intended to, never given a chance, and certainly this game isn't a home for many Star Trek fans. Good job being angry guys. It's only alienated every single new player with money who has shown up here.
They've reset the game. They have 1 chance to do things differently. To release content slowly and surely. Well tested, well thought out, and well played. However, the Forum says "No, TRIBBLE you don't play then".. We don't care about your PC TRIBBLE. We want a good game on console. It wouldn't look remotely the same. We couldn't even get our own (Sub)forums. We certainly won't be given a second thought. I would love for us all to be wrong on this.
Realistically, I have only ever seen one method of "leveling the playing field" that actually works in games where the core of game play is collecting stuff to make yourself awesome.... Player rankings. These may or may not get reset periodically, but they're based on your win-loss records in PvP. using that to match people in queues would be useful.
It would be useful...if there were enough people in the queue to actually divide into ranks and still have enough players to start a game.
But you do make an important point there. The core of MMORPG gameplay is collecting stuff that makes you awesome. People who dismiss that as "pointless grinding" are missing the point of not only this game but the entire genre.
The problem of PvP in STO is then not that all the stuff you can collect makes it "unfair," but that PvP tends to attract the kind of people who don't like to collect stuff. And that's because it doesn't give the kind of reward that would attract people who do like to collect stuff.
Yeah, for people to have enough interest to try there has to be some sort of reward, and dil might not be the best option. Maybe random boxes like those things Q gives you?
Golly, not sure why people would ever get the impression the PvP subcommunity is considered toxic. Just look at some of these fine forum posts showing just how inclusive and friendly they can be.
And this is them behaving themselves. You ain't even seen their true nature yet.
geez, maybe Wast33 is right and you really DID have the kind of experience with a "PvP' person that gets featured on "Law and Order: SVU".
'cause even the douchiest bags I've run into in this game in Ker'rat, the real TROLL types who don't even pretend they are anything else-don't compare to the invective and screaming from your typical failed ISA run from PvE players, and the level of snobbish bitchiness encountered in the PvP forum doesn't hold a stinky candle to the thread "Your Worst STF Ever" in the PvE/events tab here, and I don't think I've EVER seen the kind of toxic ****-waving in PvP that erupted in these forums with the Dilithium Riots or the Tau Dewa Nerf Riots...
I mean, come on, YOUR lot threatened to KILL someone...like, for real, death threats on their twitter pages and Doxxing them because of an admittedly less-than-wise design choice for PvE content.
And now I bring out your real face. Seriously, you think you and wast33 is helping? You ain't. They should make PvP only ships and gear and make it new player friendly where they just need some dil and a bit of zen to buy the ship so casuals can get into PvP. Why? Because it will finally drive people like you and wast away for good...and that would be a good thing for this game...not just PvP.
Coldnapalm (may I call you ColdNapalm?) there is no helping PvP, the good community that it used to have is gone, and it's not going to come back. The easy access for casual players to try it out without being burned is gone, and also never going to come back. It is broken beyond the ability for reasonable repair, and there are no 'allies' to be had even if it weren't.
Those are the conditions as they actually exist. It is not "TOXIC" to point out and explain the actual situation, nor is it "Toxic" to tell people exactly how we got to this point, nor is it toxic to explain that things are not going to magically get better just because the game went to console.
bouncing the fantasies about how it could have been NOT broken, is just a fun exercise in speculation-because no matter what, nothing about it is going to get better.
encouraging false hopes is toxic. fostering a false impression that things will change is toxic-because these inevitably lead to disappointment and temper tantrums when (predictably) things do not change for the better because fundamentally, the staff simply can't.
simple fact demonstrated over the time this game has been on-line, is that if you pulled every developer off of PvP that is on it, and put them on PvE-you would have a net change of ZERO. (for that matter, a Gross change of zero as well), yet, in spite of that, People (ignorant people) still insist on blaming PvP for Nerfs, still insist that PvP is using too many resources, still pretend that their special powers got a rebalance because of PvP'ers when PvP has never had any significant impact on development or balance decisions in this game.
The statement on developers is true-every staffer that has worked with the PvP community in this game was gone within six months of starting-their reasons always sound different and it's always "Amicably" gone, but the fact is, working on or with PvP at Cryptic is a career-suicide move.
The game is six years old and profitable without catering to a PvP crowd-that's not going to change either. When selling power creep to finish the same mission for the millionth time a few seconds faster starts hitting diminishing returns at the cash shop, there will not be a reconsideration, because the business model is set in stone and organizations have their own inertia-by the time a problem with the model is detected, it's too late to change direction...and we're already at too late right now-the weight of code is already too heavy, the amount of work to make it viable is already too large, and Cryptic doesn't have the budget or manpower to do the work.
therefore, any talk of a "Revamp" or making it viable? that's just talk, it can't happen, Cryptic can't do it. It isn't toxic to admit that Cryptic can't do it.
It's toxic to pretend that they could, but won't.
Could HAVE-in the past, perhaps...but not now.
I guess I could back off and let people have their illusions-but I have this irritating tendency to want to explain to someone why their idea doesn't work, even though, perhaps, with a newer game that has less accumulation of emergency patchwork, with a decent budget and the right devs, it might have been able to.
The crisis point where a change might have worked, was three years ago minimum, before Legacy of Romulus. we're past that point and then some. each year, issues like balance, accessibility, playability and community become more and more work to salvage, repair, or restore. Point of no return was Delta Rising. After that point, there was no longer a positive, active and accepting community for PvP, and as a direct result, all the positive people in that activity left over the ensuing months.
This is merely facts, Coldnapalm. I don't remember if you were around and if you were, if you were around and not part of the "Best Expansion Ever and the Players Love it" meme-campaign being run by PvE players, (compleat with death threats on dev twitters and doxxing of staffers by your comrades), but none of that was originating or being promoted by the PvP groups.
Likewise, it wasn't the PvP people who were throwing a tantrum when STF rewards were being cut back in 2013, to the point that (again) people were calling for dev staffers to be fired. PvP had nothing to do with that one either.
It's not however. There is an easy solution to get PvP active again. One that is rather inexpensibe for cryptic to do and one that can even make them some money. Have PvP only ships and ground kits with the boffs/abilities that is set that you get from the zen store. For say...15-20 bucks a pop. These would take almost no dev time to code...but would require some forthought for balance. Have PvP only gear that you get for some dil off the dil store to equip yourself with. Make it bind on equip so the exchange can get it's play of it if that is what people want...and to let more newer players in by having some help from the older ones who can get the gear for them. Disable traits in PvP. Bam...balanced. Selfcontained so you don't interfer with the pure PvE people. It doesn't cost them oddles of dev time. They get money. Easy for new players to join in. Hell, we can even have a starter ship and kit to make it even MORE new player friendly. Once that actually starts to show there are players willing to do this, we can expand to things like leaderboard and matchmaking issues. But there is a solution. The problem is, the current die hard PvP people are rejecting it...so the ONLY viable solution can't go forward because of the old guard PvP...that means for the good of PvP and this game overall...you all need to go.
PvP players have suggested that as a possible solution for years.
I think the two factions (PvE & PvP) have more in common then some would care to admit.
Also, I've met a lot of nice people on both sides of the aisle...
Of course mixed within each is a few D-Bags. But from what I've seen, that's a small minority.
Really? Because whenever I mention it, I get pure hate from the PvP people. Do you see wast or patrick supporting this idea...i mean at all? No you don't. So...yeah, it may have been suggested at one point years ago, but if it had any support from the PvP crowd, it sure as hell doesn't now. I don't think it has had any support since I haven't really seen posts that supports this idea at all. In fact I clearly remember somebody else mention this as an idea and getting ripped apart.
I for one, (can't speak for everyone) proposed pretty much what you have Coldnapalm. I called it Stock Car PvP. I think it was in that "Keep or Remove PvP" thread.
I thought personally this would have been the easiest way of bringing in new players and not alienating them. Like you said, the preloaded ships could even be placed in the c-store as a bundle, say 1000zen.
Keep regular PvP modes, but add a queue for stock ships.
I also like the matchmaking proposal that markhawkman suggests a couple posts above. But with so few players left, it may be hard to get a game going if it relies on equal matches.
Its already pretty hard to get a PvP queue to pop.
Usually its always the Premade queues that pop.
And a 5 man experienced team on team speak, is gonna kill any group of randoms that are brave enough to queue up as a single.
I PvP'd last night with a couple random people from ESD zone chat last night.
We all had a good time, because no one there was taking it too seriously.
So it's still possible to still have a nice PvP experience in game.
We took turns doing 2 on 1's , 1 on 1's , tested a few things people were curious about, and just fooled around for about 30-40 mins.
It's just unfortunate, that new players entering the official PvP queues are gonna get curb stomped 100% of the time.
Because PvP can still be a fun activity with the right people.
How would Cryptic/PWE monetize this? I don't see "stock PvP ships" selling well enough to justify the development costs.
THIS^
Honestly I can think of a simple way they could do it. Use the default loadouts that ships come with. BUT... is it going to have pre-assigned boffs too? Like the DSD mission perhaps?
The real issue is the amount of coding work needed to program all that into the game. Zeronius has mentioned several times how difficult it is to get the story missions to work right, and those are only a single ship.
Honestly I can think of a simple way they could do it. Use the default loadouts that ships come with. BUT... is it going to have pre-assigned boffs too? Like the DSD mission perhaps?
I don't think it's necessary to have "stock ships" just for PvP, mostly because I don't see them selling at all as people can make "stock" ships right now for the cheap.
People should be able to use the ships they have spent their time/effort into building and tweaking to their liking. It actually might even hurt ship/dil/zen sales to have vanilla ships for PvP because no one would have to bother with upgrading the gear/consoles.
The idea of a "battle ranking" of some sort that would be calculated based on ship tier, gear, spec points etc. would work better IMO. The queue system would match people of similar "ranking" together so as to avoid matching a seasoned veteran with a fully pimped out T6 ship and all the trimmings with a rookie using common gear - at least in public queues. Private matches should be whatever goes so people can test out builds and such if they like.
All of this discussion is moot though if Cryptic cannot monetize the work involved. I think "fixing" PvP is a sizable investment of time and manpower, so they will have to recoup that cost somehow.
Yeah, I think that's the big stumbling block.
Oh well. It doesn't hurt to throw around some ideas.
And I agree with Pat, that blocking Specs is probably a lot more complicated then it seems on the surface. So perhaps this is all a pipe dream.
As I think that blocking specs would be a major requirement for the system to work.
just hopping by, maybe later on i'll have time or mood to comment (short of first for now). i just wanted to say a big thx, as it seems to me we're back on trek (oh that pun :rolleyes:) and having somewhat like a constructive and object-relating discussion.
on a sidenote: i'll support everything what would bring sto pvp in a state again where skill beats gear. no matter how it comes around. i just think that some ways would be easier to implement/workable than others. adding extra pvp-only stuff would be fine with me, but it may just is a bit of too much in comparison to work with what we got and go from there.
laters and really thx! i like it when it's civil and object-based! no matter i can dance the other twist as well ;D...
also, just to have dropped it, i'm no one to say about he represents the former pvp crowd. that would be on a level like naz, reggie, hank, thissler, virus, drkfrontiers, falcon and many more other people.
if these approved on anything i'd most probably would be fine with it lol, but sadly most of them don't bother with sto too much anymore.
Honestly I can think of a simple way they could do it. Use the default loadouts that ships come with. BUT... is it going to have pre-assigned boffs too? Like the DSD mission perhaps?
I don't think it's necessary to have "stock ships" just for PvP, mostly because I don't see them selling at all as people can make "stock" ships right now for the cheap.
People should be able to use the ships they have spent their time/effort into building and tweaking to their liking. It actually might even hurt ship/dil/zen sales to have vanilla ships for PvP because no one would have to bother with upgrading the gear/consoles.
The idea of a "battle ranking" of some sort that would be calculated based on ship tier, gear, spec points etc. would work better IMO. The queue system would match people of similar "ranking" together so as to avoid matching a seasoned veteran with a fully pimped out T6 ship and all the trimmings with a rookie using common gear - at least in public queues. Private matches should be whatever goes so people can test out builds and such if they like.
The problem with gear rankings is that it's too easy to game. For example, running mk12 in everything but your main weapon and shields... Also it gets into the realm of determining relative values for skills and gimmick consoles.... it'd take a huge amount of work to get the numbers to reflect the actual combat capability of the ship. Also, it doesn't take into account whether a player spams macros, or pilots manually. Those make a big difference.
Honestly I don't like the stock ships idea either. But it seems more like something workable than using gear scores. Both options have inherent balance fine tuning that'd probably never happen to the satisfaction of the community. Also, the metagame is dynamically unstable over time and the relative values of things change periodically. Retuning either system idea every time a major content release came out seems like too much work to be worth it. Which is why I think player scores are a better idea. That would reflect how often the player wins, and little else.
Honestly I can think of a simple way they could do it. Use the default loadouts that ships come with. BUT... is it going to have pre-assigned boffs too? Like the DSD mission perhaps?
I don't think it's necessary to have "stock ships" just for PvP, mostly because I don't see them selling at all as people can make "stock" ships right now for the cheap.
People should be able to use the ships they have spent their time/effort into building and tweaking to their liking. It actually might even hurt ship/dil/zen sales to have vanilla ships for PvP because no one would have to bother with upgrading the gear/consoles.
The idea of a "battle ranking" of some sort that would be calculated based on ship tier, gear, spec points etc. would work better IMO. The queue system would match people of similar "ranking" together so as to avoid matching a seasoned veteran with a fully pimped out T6 ship and all the trimmings with a rookie using common gear - at least in public queues. Private matches should be whatever goes so people can test out builds and such if they like.
The problem with gear rankings is that it's too easy to game. For example, running mk12 in everything but your main weapon and shields... Also it gets into the realm of determining relative values for skills and gimmick consoles.... it'd take a huge amount of work to get the numbers to reflect the actual combat capability of the ship. Also, it doesn't take into account whether a player spams macros, or pilots manually. Those make a big difference.
Honestly I don't like the stock ships idea either. But it seems more like something workable than using gear scores. Both options have inherent balance fine tuning that'd probably never happen to the satisfaction of the community. Also, the metagame is dynamically unstable over time and the relative values of things change periodically. Retuning either system idea every time a major content release came out seems like too much work to be worth it. Which is why I think player scores are a better idea. That would reflect how often the player wins, and little else.
This could be done with a leveling system. Wouldn't be that bad to have a PvP Rank structure and level.
As far as gear goes, PvP gear is the same as PvE gear, just stated for PvP. Which the old PvP gear and mods are still in game. Hard to come by, but they are there. With the Mk determining it's stats, just like PvE gear. Then of course rarity. So all the systems to make the gear viable are already there.
As I said, the promotion ships would have a PvE and PvP version that could be bought with Dil. T5, T5U, and T6 ships would have to have a PvP version. This is part for the Z-store. You can buy these in the same manner as the other ships there. This also separates PvE and PvP. That way, the balancing and tweaks that need to happen for PvP have no effect on PvE at all. This still allows the PvE players to have their "Gode Mode Powercreep" and the PvP players to have a more balanced PvP. The only ones that will be against this, are the ones that want "God Mode" in PvP as well.
The only thing here is, Cryptic would have to add in a PvE Loadout and a PvP loadout. This way the PvE loadout is only active in PvE areas and the PvP loadout would only be in PvP areas. This is where things are not likely to happen. It requires development of a PvP skill tree and specializations. The ships and gear are just setting up different stats and mods on pre-existing items.
There is also the problem of the lockbox, lobi, and Z-store ship consoles. Players are going to want to use these. But as they are already in game, then all they need is a PvP version of them.
So with this, Cryptic could re-coup development costs. Since if you want a T5, T5U, or T6 ship to use for PvP. Then you have to buy it from the Z-store. With no freebies. Just because you own the PvE version of the ship, does not mean you get the PvP version for free. This doubles the amount of ships Crytpic offers in the store, potentially doubling the amount of money made of ship sales.
Honestly I can think of a simple way they could do it. Use the default loadouts that ships come with. BUT... is it going to have pre-assigned boffs too? Like the DSD mission perhaps?
I don't think it's necessary to have "stock ships" just for PvP, mostly because I don't see them selling at all as people can make "stock" ships right now for the cheap.
People should be able to use the ships they have spent their time/effort into building and tweaking to their liking. It actually might even hurt ship/dil/zen sales to have vanilla ships for PvP because no one would have to bother with upgrading the gear/consoles.
The idea of a "battle ranking" of some sort that would be calculated based on ship tier, gear, spec points etc. would work better IMO. The queue system would match people of similar "ranking" together so as to avoid matching a seasoned veteran with a fully pimped out T6 ship and all the trimmings with a rookie using common gear - at least in public queues. Private matches should be whatever goes so people can test out builds and such if they like.
The problem with gear rankings is that it's too easy to game. For example, running mk12 in everything but your main weapon and shields... Also it gets into the realm of determining relative values for skills and gimmick consoles.... it'd take a huge amount of work to get the numbers to reflect the actual combat capability of the ship. Also, it doesn't take into account whether a player spams macros, or pilots manually. Those make a big difference.
Honestly I don't like the stock ships idea either. But it seems more like something workable than using gear scores. Both options have inherent balance fine tuning that'd probably never happen to the satisfaction of the community. Also, the metagame is dynamically unstable over time and the relative values of things change periodically. Retuning either system idea every time a major content release came out seems like too much work to be worth it. Which is why I think player scores are a better idea. That would reflect how often the player wins, and little else.
This could be done with a leveling system. Wouldn't be that bad to have a PvP Rank structure and level.
As far as gear goes, PvP gear is the same as PvE gear, just stated for PvP. Which the old PvP gear and mods are still in game. Hard to come by, but they are there. With the Mk determining it's stats, just like PvE gear. Then of course rarity. So all the systems to make the gear viable are already there.
As I said, the promotion ships would have a PvE and PvP version that could be bought with Dil. T5, T5U, and T6 ships would have to have a PvP version. This is part for the Z-store. You can buy these in the same manner as the other ships there. This also separates PvE and PvP. That way, the balancing and tweaks that need to happen for PvP have no effect on PvE at all. This still allows the PvE players to have their "Gode Mode Powercreep" and the PvP players to have a more balanced PvP. The only ones that will be against this, are the ones that want "God Mode" in PvP as well.
The only thing here is, Cryptic would have to add in a PvE Loadout and a PvP loadout. This way the PvE loadout is only active in PvE areas and the PvP loadout would only be in PvP areas. This is where things are not likely to happen. It requires development of a PvP skill tree and specializations. The ships and gear are just setting up different stats and mods on pre-existing items.
There is also the problem of the lockbox, lobi, and Z-store ship consoles. Players are going to want to use these. But as they are already in game, then all they need is a PvP version of them.
So with this, Cryptic could re-coup development costs. Since if you want a T5, T5U, or T6 ship to use for PvP. Then you have to buy it from the Z-store. With no freebies. Just because you own the PvE version of the ship, does not mean you get the PvP version for free. This doubles the amount of ships Crytpic offers in the store, potentially doubling the amount of money made of ship sales.
They could even do a 2 pack of ships.
PvE Version T6 - 3K zen
PvP Version T6 - 3K zen
PvE and PvP 2 pack T6 - 6K zen
alternatively, it might be easier to look a the coding for PvP maps and instances to switch the effect. (yeah, I know, too much work, hear me out on this...)
basic changes: On this map, "immunity" becomes "Resistance+Defense bonus". Thus, the pilot skill tree and other grind-for-it specs don't become totally useless, but they are brought down to where us mortal players can beat them.
Stacking limits/diminishing returns applied PvP with the Tactical consoles.
hard limits on Duty Officer bonuses/stacking limits. In PvE, your purples are purple, in PvP, only white or green are active, and limited to 1 per customer.
Damage Reduction vs. Players for both spike and pressure.
AOE powers get a hard cap on their effectiveness vs. players, spike damage powers get hard-capped in the spirit of the removal of double-tapping. *(Only vs. Players)
Confuses/Placates cancel each other instead of stacking, and a fixed "immunity" period of duration plus 5 seconds is applied to the target. (only against players)
disables trigger an immune response at the end of their duration that lasts duration plus 5 percent, this immune response is triggered early by attempts to add another one (only against players)
Powers without a direct counter are either non-functional, or have reduced duration/damage/etc. and trigger a clear/cooldown if they're stacked. (effectively the "one black-poo console only")
AOE powers have a 5% "Friendly fire" risk-that is, 5% of the time, you can be got by your own bomb or your teammate can be hit by your mines instead of the enemy. (fog of battle mod)
Reciprocal abilities like FBP don't do damage directly-they knock out subsystems instead, with the standard cleanses applying, plus a fixed 50% of incoming damage is reflected back (minus mods like Partigen.)
TBR on the PvP map expends 75% on shields before doing damage to hull (Just like a torpedo).
Entropy effects cleared by Science Team or Hazard Emitters or both-but only for players. (NPc's get what they get-they're just bags of hitpoints anyway.)
Basically the "PvP gear" or PvP map-everything still has a use, everything has a purpose, but nothing is overwhelming or absolutely required.
it lets you use roughly the same build, but without the cheezefestiness that PvE allows-instead of popping people with less firepower than you pop Drones with, players end up roughly on the same scale damage/defense wise.
As for Voice Comms and Macros...I think those are outside of Cryptic's control. They don't really model skill as a player so much as they model someone's budget and hardware on the user-end outside the game and company's control. Likewise for voice comms-unless and until Cryptic makes their in-house voice comm work properly, those things are outside the ability of the company to influence or control.
leaving it to the rest of us.
This is why I suggest the second, PvP skill tree and specializations. They can be exact copies of what we have now, just stated and setup up for PvP.
While your's does offer a more balanced fight. It also leaves room for the PvP balancing to affect PvE. with a second skill tree and specializations for PvP. Any changes made to the PvP side, do not affect the PvE side. This way both sides get what they want.
Though I'd leave the PvP skill tree open, so that players could change when not in a match. Well for the first few months or so, as the system was tested and implemented. This will mainly be for build and powers testing. Have to find the ones that aren't working properly.
Now as part of this, if they applied your suggestions to the skills and abilities in a PvP skill tree/specialization. With the code to deactivate the PvE abilites and activate the PvP abilities built in to the maps. There is no way to get around it. Just applying it to the map would work. But if that map bugs, then it's likely to not be there. Well except the fog of battle part. That ones can actually be a part of the map.
The balancing act doesn't need to be applied to the map. It needs to be applied to the character and ships. This is where you run in to the development troubles of Cryptic. While the ships and gear would just be copies of what we have now, just stated for PvP. The PvP skill tree/specialization, abilities and skills would take more time. This would be the hardest part of the development, right next to the code to deactivate/activate which loadout you're using. But, with this setup, and the separation of PvE and PvP, any balancing, tweaks, nerfs, etc. that happen for PvP. Can only affect the PvP side.
For this I'd start simple. Basic ships and basic gear, purchasable from appropriate PvP vendors, up to VR Mk XII. Then with the PvP skill tree/specializations. The bug hunt and balancing can begin. This would be something for multiple releases, discounting the occasional emergency fix. Then as time went on, Cryptic could have all the metrics they want on the viability of PvP.
And for those that say "PvP doesn't belong in Star Trek". Remember in the shows and movies, it was all Person vs Person, or Player vs Player. Aside from the few episodes where the environment was trying to kill them. The only difference between the game and the shows, is that our bad guys are controlled by an A.I. instead of an actual person playing the part.
Nobody wants to play with griefer trolls who knowingly exploit broken mechanics and take pleasure in annoying others over the safety of the internet. The biggest flaws in STO PvP are the players themselves.
No, not many would.
And anyone who has done a little PvP lately knows its completely out of control these days.
There are many who are flying exploit builds.
(Which is part of the reason I fly a FBP/Kinetic FB build to PvP -- Too punish those who would abuse exploits)
Thing is many of the PvP instigated nerfs were actually healthy for the game. They helped keep things balanced to a small degree.
Not always admittedly (The first Great Science Nerf put science into the gutter for years) but in a lot of cases its kept Powercreep from ballooning out of control.
Or that was the side effect.
And now that Devs will probably never again listen to the PvP community in terms of nerfs (because they've gone all-in on selling powercreep and know PvP is no longer profitable and there are very few players left to appease),
it's like the game has become a free for all on DPS.
And they keep adding new powers/abilities that can be easily exploited in PvP.
Or be used in PvE to keep upping the top end of the DPS scale. I mean, in the last 6 months it's gone from crazy to ludicrous.
And then people want to complain about things being too easy in PvE.
(which is okay - but we shouldn't be surprised as to how and why this is now the case)
There is very little resistance/objections to new powers now, partly because PvP'ers will never be listened to again and most of them have already left.
Sure, "some" of the DPS community is pretty good at reporting these types of things...but they aren't nearly as active as the once large PvP community was at calling out broken items and equipment.
Because they aren't on the receiving end of these powers.
And their targets have such large HP pools that they don't see the effects as drastically.
PvP'ers notice this stuff more because of their inherently smaller HP's.
So in a way, ignoring PvP, is not really healthy for the overall game. And I believe intensifies/expedites the issues that unfettered powercreep can bring.
Wow...!! You are saying the same thing I have told many people since returning to STO last year.
Before I had to leave STO for 20 months, I was part of elite PvP scene. The only F2P among the elite PvPers to my knowledge. And when I returned, it was to discover that virtually all of the former PvP community had left the game. about 80%+ of the game community from when I was playing in 2012-13. It was horrifying to me as I am a 50 year, hard core ST fanboy and was disappointed my active friends list was down to just a few hundred people. Very sad.
This being said, when I tried to revive PvP I found that most of the folks wanna quit as soon as they get killed a few times, unlike REAL PvPers. Real PvPers know that if you are getting wasted repeatedly, you should be asking advice from your opponent or other knowledgeable folks to improve your current situation.
As well, Elite PvP used to have 4 important aspects; 1) piloting skill, 2) an inventory full of various consoles and ship sets to change while still in the Arena... to try counter your opponents advantage, if they had one, 3) creative and ever evolving combat strategies and 4) and most importantly... teamwork. The last of these is seriously lacking in both PvP and PvE most of the time in STO these days.
To explain, when I was with Galactic Privateer Syndicate, one of our fleet leaders would bring in a Sci ship to draw fire using FaW, cripple and then call targets for team and most importantly, keep the Tact Captains alive. And he was actually more powerful in an attack role than 1/2 our team. But he was one of 2 team members that could do this team leadership role effectively. While I do currently see sci toons tossing heals to me every now and then, I throw far more heals on Sci and Engy ships while I am in my escorts these days. In both PvP and PvE.
It is not PvP that is broken. It is the fighting spirit of the humans playing the game.
A possible solution would be for someone like KBLS [from PvP Bootcamp] or one of the other remaining Elite PvPers in STO set up a league with tournaments and rules that not only offered balanced teams... but also offered segregated ship class events and facilitated tiered contests using dps as determined by a pre contest dps qualification events. Simple.
I would solve this if I could but am very unhealthy and 1/2 blind these days and have to exert great effort to even write things such as this. If there are any interested party in our community, here is a solution for you to effect. If you need any more clarification, look at professional contests or racing of any sort in RL. They have all done this stuff for as long as we have been racing/contesting with machines of any sort.
May PvP come back and live long and prosper...!! Poru out.
So, the consensus appears to be that PvP needs MOAR WALLS OF TEXT!!!
This thread is certainly heavy on the TLDR.
I blame Ngo... He doesn't seem to know how to summarize.
The idea I had in mind regarding ratings is inspired by the system used in Avengers Alliance. At the start of each PvP season, all players had their rating set to 800. Wins and losses would cause that to go up or down. But only for official matches, and official matches were luck of the draw. For a STO implementation, if a team queued the team members would get assigned separately, and possibly end up fighting each other.
While the ship lockout is a good idea. As I mentioned, it would temporary. The baseline for starting the balancing and debugging that will follow. Then as the higher tier ships are released in PvP form, this mainly being their master, traits and consoles. The rest of the stats can remain the same. This would be best for T1-4 starting. Then move to T5. Then T5U. Then T6. This way there isn't a cluster of problems with everything starting out.
The reward for PvP does need to be addressed, no arguing that point. As it's been stated a few time in all the TL;DR posts we've done. Yes, random queue gets a reward. Private queues would be practice, personal, and tournament, these get no reward. Unless it's a tournament, then you're fighting for the reward.
As far as what you gain. This could be done as one reputation, with the appropriate trait unlocks at each tier. Though, this would soon head toward where we are with PvE, once you're done with the rep, no need to bother with it any more. So instead of a reputation here. Make it a level kind of deal. Level 1 unlocks a bonus to defense or something. Level 2 unlocks a higher tier of ships. Level 3 unlocks a higher tier of gear. With Mk XIV gear, that's 14 levels. The ships tiers add another 6. Add in a random bonus to stats between them. That comes out to level 26 in PvP Reputation to unlock everything we have now. This grows even more if you add in rarity to the leveling.
Then from here, PvP can evolve. As more and more people do it. It could even evolve from what we have now to full on Fleet vs Fleet. I wouldn't limit to factions specific fights. Though Klingon vs Klingon would have to be a Fleet type of thing. It would be who is willing to fight to control which sector of Imperial Space. The same could be done for the Federation and Romulans. Then the Neutral zones could be come "contested space" for faction vs faction. But this would be a massive undertaking on Cryptic's part.
oh yeah, forgot to explain rewards. MAA had a system where people would get resources for doing a daily that was 5 ranked fights. Unless the RNG was feeling particularly fickle this was against 5 different opponents. Each fight gave you a reward, and completing the daily gave you more stuff.
Comments
No, not many would.
And anyone who has done a little PvP lately knows its completely out of control these days.
There are many who are flying exploit builds.
(Which is part of the reason I fly a FBP/Kinetic FB build to PvP -- Too punish those who would abuse exploits)
Thing is many of the PvP instigated nerfs were actually healthy for the game. They helped keep things balanced to a small degree.
Not always admittedly (The first Great Science Nerf put science into the gutter for years) but in a lot of cases its kept Powercreep from ballooning out of control.
Or that was the side effect.
And now that Devs will probably never again listen to the PvP community in terms of nerfs (because they've gone all-in on selling powercreep and know PvP is no longer profitable and there are very few players left to appease),
it's like the game has become a free for all on DPS.
And they keep adding new powers/abilities that can be easily exploited in PvP.
Or be used in PvE to keep upping the top end of the DPS scale. I mean, in the last 6 months it's gone from crazy to ludicrous.
And then people want to complain about things being too easy in PvE.
(which is okay - but we shouldn't be surprised as to how and why this is now the case)
There is very little resistance/objections to new powers now, partly because PvP'ers will never be listened to again and most of them have already left.
Sure, "some" of the DPS community is pretty good at reporting these types of things...but they aren't nearly as active as the once large PvP community was at calling out broken items and equipment.
Because they aren't on the receiving end of these powers.
And their targets have such large HP pools that they don't see the effects as drastically.
PvP'ers notice this stuff more because of their inherently smaller HP's.
So in a way, ignoring PvP, is not really healthy for the overall game. And I believe intensifies/expedites the issues that unfettered powercreep can bring.
that tier style could work with current system and ships maybe, if certain setups would take places of modules (note to those unfamiliar with: have to be researched and bought with ingame currency) from wows. here one could distinct between gear- and boffsetups/modules, so each ships would have 2 levels of possible alternatives.
another question would be if to release exclusive ships for that style or flagged pvp ships, or to add like a pvp filter to existing ships (as another tab maybe?), where u then could setup the ships u have for pvp. techtree could be included in personal tab and/or shipyard as well.
but then, with the setups the problem starts: which to take, in what combinations and with what contained for what ships? what levels of meta-stuff to involve in what quality. doffs, traits, boxstuff yay or nay, etc..... (imo: non of all that!) also which standard mk (xii btw imo lol), and so on. nothing one not could overcome, but not done on the doorstep as well, so to say (note: better only take non-boxstuff imo!).
careers, in comparison to wows, would be tied to their shiptypes. so tacs in escorts, scis in sci-ships and engies in cruisers. destroyers could maybe set with hybridsetups or even hybrid-captnpower-combos (xcept for subnuc and alpha!!!!
i think that alerady could make it, but i also think there are much better ways to get something worthwhile back again. the fundamental setup seems too different for a 1to1 adaption, so to get it in exactly such shape like wows, it would come down to code a whole new game.
nevertheless, one thing's 4 sure: i'd play it!
Realistically, I have only ever seen one method of "leveling the playing field" that actually works in games where the core of game play is collecting stuff to make yourself awesome.... Player rankings. These may or may not get reset periodically, but they're based on your win-loss records in PvP. using that to match people in queues would be useful.
Gear scores are hopeless. They ignore player skill. Skill is a more powerful weapon than a disruptor autocannon...
My character Tsin'xing
It would be useful...if there were enough people in the queue to actually divide into ranks and still have enough players to start a game.
But you do make an important point there. The core of MMORPG gameplay is collecting stuff that makes you awesome. People who dismiss that as "pointless grinding" are missing the point of not only this game but the entire genre.
The problem of PvP in STO is then not that all the stuff you can collect makes it "unfair," but that PvP tends to attract the kind of people who don't like to collect stuff. And that's because it doesn't give the kind of reward that would attract people who do like to collect stuff.
As it stands on console PvP is going well cause powercreep hasn't blown our heads off yet. BUT several several console players are looking up PvP. We love to "PvP" on console, why? Almost every single game we play is multiplayer. Almost every single thing we touch is in party chat. We came for an MMO. Not just a RPG. Because of this attitude/BS on the forums and the grim outlook on the future of PvP/PvE several players have already quit the game in the 1st month, after buying several T6s etc because they have heard that all of their time is going to be wasted. They will never have anything to works towards. They will never have any fun. They will never get Dev Support. They will never be apart of the community and there certainly isn't any hope of them fitting in here cause they are just too hopeful to hang out in these 6 year old forums wishing for content of either type. If they even dare to show up here with hope (How dare they on a Brand New Game to them) they are ruthlessly educated.
Combine all the console players who want to play multiplayer (Multiple Players, with and against. Not shooting static reskinned mobs) with the console players who want PvE content that isn't a TRIBBLE clusterfuck of incompetence and you can easily see why the population has taken a massive hit already. Several "active" 300+ member fleets with only 20 people on at anytime already. It's awful.
To clarify on the PvE content since someone will ask or say launch was a success. Last weeks maintenance broke the game entirely, completely unplayable for days. Several players still experiencing bugs this week (Can't assign skills at 50+, Can't accept Questchains, Can't get their free T2, T3 ships etc etc etc. The list of gamebreaking is insanely long) Those are just the best highlights. Game has had a laundry list of gamebreaking bugs since day 1 and it only got WORSE. Crazy. Crazy.
The only person who is happy here is Geko. He can put anything decent for PvP behind the PvE content and point to that when he grabs numbers. Of course PvP hasn't made money. It was never intended to, never given a chance, and certainly this game isn't a home for many Star Trek fans. Good job being angry guys. It's only alienated every single new player with money who has shown up here.
They've reset the game. They have 1 chance to do things differently. To release content slowly and surely. Well tested, well thought out, and well played. However, the Forum says "No, TRIBBLE you don't play then".. We don't care about your PC TRIBBLE. We want a good game on console. It wouldn't look remotely the same. We couldn't even get our own (Sub)forums. We certainly won't be given a second thought. I would love for us all to be wrong on this.
My character Tsin'xing
I for one, (can't speak for everyone) proposed pretty much what you have Coldnapalm. I called it Stock Car PvP. I think it was in that "Keep or Remove PvP" thread.
I thought personally this would have been the easiest way of bringing in new players and not alienating them. Like you said, the preloaded ships could even be placed in the c-store as a bundle, say 1000zen.
Keep regular PvP modes, but add a queue for stock ships.
I also like the matchmaking proposal that markhawkman suggests a couple posts above. But with so few players left, it may be hard to get a game going if it relies on equal matches.
Its already pretty hard to get a PvP queue to pop.
Usually its always the Premade queues that pop.
And a 5 man experienced team on team speak, is gonna kill any group of randoms that are brave enough to queue up as a single.
I PvP'd last night with a couple random people from ESD zone chat last night.
We all had a good time, because no one there was taking it too seriously.
So it's still possible to still have a nice PvP experience in game.
We took turns doing 2 on 1's , 1 on 1's , tested a few things people were curious about, and just fooled around for about 30-40 mins.
It's just unfortunate, that new players entering the official PvP queues are gonna get curb stomped 100% of the time.
Because PvP can still be a fun activity with the right people.
Honestly I can think of a simple way they could do it. Use the default loadouts that ships come with. BUT... is it going to have pre-assigned boffs too? Like the DSD mission perhaps?
The real issue is the amount of coding work needed to program all that into the game. Zeronius has mentioned several times how difficult it is to get the story missions to work right, and those are only a single ship.
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah, I think that's the big stumbling block.
Oh well. It doesn't hurt to throw around some ideas.
And I agree with Pat, that blocking Specs is probably a lot more complicated then it seems on the surface. So perhaps this is all a pipe dream.
As I think that blocking specs would be a major requirement for the system to work.
on a sidenote: i'll support everything what would bring sto pvp in a state again where skill beats gear. no matter how it comes around. i just think that some ways would be easier to implement/workable than others. adding extra pvp-only stuff would be fine with me, but it may just is a bit of too much in comparison to work with what we got and go from there.
laters and really thx! i like it when it's civil and object-based! no matter i can dance the other twist as well ;D...
also, just to have dropped it, i'm no one to say about he represents the former pvp crowd. that would be on a level like naz, reggie, hank, thissler, virus, drkfrontiers, falcon and many more other people.
if these approved on anything i'd most probably would be fine with it lol, but sadly most of them don't bother with sto too much anymore.
Honestly I don't like the stock ships idea either. But it seems more like something workable than using gear scores. Both options have inherent balance fine tuning that'd probably never happen to the satisfaction of the community. Also, the metagame is dynamically unstable over time and the relative values of things change periodically. Retuning either system idea every time a major content release came out seems like too much work to be worth it. Which is why I think player scores are a better idea. That would reflect how often the player wins, and little else.
My character Tsin'xing
This could be done with a leveling system. Wouldn't be that bad to have a PvP Rank structure and level.
As far as gear goes, PvP gear is the same as PvE gear, just stated for PvP. Which the old PvP gear and mods are still in game. Hard to come by, but they are there. With the Mk determining it's stats, just like PvE gear. Then of course rarity. So all the systems to make the gear viable are already there.
As I said, the promotion ships would have a PvE and PvP version that could be bought with Dil. T5, T5U, and T6 ships would have to have a PvP version. This is part for the Z-store. You can buy these in the same manner as the other ships there. This also separates PvE and PvP. That way, the balancing and tweaks that need to happen for PvP have no effect on PvE at all. This still allows the PvE players to have their "Gode Mode Powercreep" and the PvP players to have a more balanced PvP. The only ones that will be against this, are the ones that want "God Mode" in PvP as well.
The only thing here is, Cryptic would have to add in a PvE Loadout and a PvP loadout. This way the PvE loadout is only active in PvE areas and the PvP loadout would only be in PvP areas. This is where things are not likely to happen. It requires development of a PvP skill tree and specializations. The ships and gear are just setting up different stats and mods on pre-existing items.
There is also the problem of the lockbox, lobi, and Z-store ship consoles. Players are going to want to use these. But as they are already in game, then all they need is a PvP version of them.
So with this, Cryptic could re-coup development costs. Since if you want a T5, T5U, or T6 ship to use for PvP. Then you have to buy it from the Z-store. With no freebies. Just because you own the PvE version of the ship, does not mean you get the PvP version for free. This doubles the amount of ships Crytpic offers in the store, potentially doubling the amount of money made of ship sales.
They could even do a 2 pack of ships.
PvE Version T6 - 3K zen
PvP Version T6 - 3K zen
PvE and PvP 2 pack T6 - 6K zen
This is why I suggest the second, PvP skill tree and specializations. They can be exact copies of what we have now, just stated and setup up for PvP.
While your's does offer a more balanced fight. It also leaves room for the PvP balancing to affect PvE. with a second skill tree and specializations for PvP. Any changes made to the PvP side, do not affect the PvE side. This way both sides get what they want.
Though I'd leave the PvP skill tree open, so that players could change when not in a match. Well for the first few months or so, as the system was tested and implemented. This will mainly be for build and powers testing. Have to find the ones that aren't working properly.
Now as part of this, if they applied your suggestions to the skills and abilities in a PvP skill tree/specialization. With the code to deactivate the PvE abilites and activate the PvP abilities built in to the maps. There is no way to get around it. Just applying it to the map would work. But if that map bugs, then it's likely to not be there. Well except the fog of battle part. That ones can actually be a part of the map.
The balancing act doesn't need to be applied to the map. It needs to be applied to the character and ships. This is where you run in to the development troubles of Cryptic. While the ships and gear would just be copies of what we have now, just stated for PvP. The PvP skill tree/specialization, abilities and skills would take more time. This would be the hardest part of the development, right next to the code to deactivate/activate which loadout you're using. But, with this setup, and the separation of PvE and PvP, any balancing, tweaks, nerfs, etc. that happen for PvP. Can only affect the PvP side.
For this I'd start simple. Basic ships and basic gear, purchasable from appropriate PvP vendors, up to VR Mk XII. Then with the PvP skill tree/specializations. The bug hunt and balancing can begin. This would be something for multiple releases, discounting the occasional emergency fix. Then as time went on, Cryptic could have all the metrics they want on the viability of PvP.
And for those that say "PvP doesn't belong in Star Trek". Remember in the shows and movies, it was all Person vs Person, or Player vs Player. Aside from the few episodes where the environment was trying to kill them. The only difference between the game and the shows, is that our bad guys are controlled by an A.I. instead of an actual person playing the part.
This thread is certainly heavy on the TLDR.
Wow...!! You are saying the same thing I have told many people since returning to STO last year.
Before I had to leave STO for 20 months, I was part of elite PvP scene. The only F2P among the elite PvPers to my knowledge. And when I returned, it was to discover that virtually all of the former PvP community had left the game. about 80%+ of the game community from when I was playing in 2012-13. It was horrifying to me as I am a 50 year, hard core ST fanboy and was disappointed my active friends list was down to just a few hundred people. Very sad.
This being said, when I tried to revive PvP I found that most of the folks wanna quit as soon as they get killed a few times, unlike REAL PvPers. Real PvPers know that if you are getting wasted repeatedly, you should be asking advice from your opponent or other knowledgeable folks to improve your current situation.
As well, Elite PvP used to have 4 important aspects; 1) piloting skill, 2) an inventory full of various consoles and ship sets to change while still in the Arena... to try counter your opponents advantage, if they had one, 3) creative and ever evolving combat strategies and 4) and most importantly... teamwork. The last of these is seriously lacking in both PvP and PvE most of the time in STO these days.
To explain, when I was with Galactic Privateer Syndicate, one of our fleet leaders would bring in a Sci ship to draw fire using FaW, cripple and then call targets for team and most importantly, keep the Tact Captains alive. And he was actually more powerful in an attack role than 1/2 our team. But he was one of 2 team members that could do this team leadership role effectively. While I do currently see sci toons tossing heals to me every now and then, I throw far more heals on Sci and Engy ships while I am in my escorts these days. In both PvP and PvE.
It is not PvP that is broken. It is the fighting spirit of the humans playing the game.
A possible solution would be for someone like KBLS [from PvP Bootcamp] or one of the other remaining Elite PvPers in STO set up a league with tournaments and rules that not only offered balanced teams... but also offered segregated ship class events and facilitated tiered contests using dps as determined by a pre contest dps qualification events. Simple.
I would solve this if I could but am very unhealthy and 1/2 blind these days and have to exert great effort to even write things such as this. If there are any interested party in our community, here is a solution for you to effect. If you need any more clarification, look at professional contests or racing of any sort in RL. They have all done this stuff for as long as we have been racing/contesting with machines of any sort.
May PvP come back and live long and prosper...!! Poru out.
The idea I had in mind regarding ratings is inspired by the system used in Avengers Alliance. At the start of each PvP season, all players had their rating set to 800. Wins and losses would cause that to go up or down. But only for official matches, and official matches were luck of the draw. For a STO implementation, if a team queued the team members would get assigned separately, and possibly end up fighting each other.
My character Tsin'xing
While the ship lockout is a good idea. As I mentioned, it would temporary. The baseline for starting the balancing and debugging that will follow. Then as the higher tier ships are released in PvP form, this mainly being their master, traits and consoles. The rest of the stats can remain the same. This would be best for T1-4 starting. Then move to T5. Then T5U. Then T6. This way there isn't a cluster of problems with everything starting out.
The reward for PvP does need to be addressed, no arguing that point. As it's been stated a few time in all the TL;DR posts we've done. Yes, random queue gets a reward. Private queues would be practice, personal, and tournament, these get no reward. Unless it's a tournament, then you're fighting for the reward.
As far as what you gain. This could be done as one reputation, with the appropriate trait unlocks at each tier. Though, this would soon head toward where we are with PvE, once you're done with the rep, no need to bother with it any more. So instead of a reputation here. Make it a level kind of deal. Level 1 unlocks a bonus to defense or something. Level 2 unlocks a higher tier of ships. Level 3 unlocks a higher tier of gear. With Mk XIV gear, that's 14 levels. The ships tiers add another 6. Add in a random bonus to stats between them. That comes out to level 26 in PvP Reputation to unlock everything we have now. This grows even more if you add in rarity to the leveling.
Then from here, PvP can evolve. As more and more people do it. It could even evolve from what we have now to full on Fleet vs Fleet. I wouldn't limit to factions specific fights. Though Klingon vs Klingon would have to be a Fleet type of thing. It would be who is willing to fight to control which sector of Imperial Space. The same could be done for the Federation and Romulans. Then the Neutral zones could be come "contested space" for faction vs faction. But this would be a massive undertaking on Cryptic's part.
My character Tsin'xing