Need PVP like world of tanks

metallica

This game could be so much better if it had PVP like world of tanks. I play that game and its pretty exciting. This game is not exciting at all like WOT. You just do the same PVE over and over and over SIGH.

regards

lucianazeta

Have you considered this may not be the game for you then..?

bossheisenberg

For those who haven't played World of Tanks, what is it about PvP from that game that is needed in STO?

lucianazeta

bossheisenberg wrote: »

For those who haven't played World of Tanks, what is it about PvP from that game that is needed in STO?

I've played it and I have no clue, I find it to be slow and dreadful, get killed and you have to sit out the entire match as a spectator.

rattler2

I've tried WoT myself. Kinda liked World of Warships a bit more though.

I think one of the things that the OP might be referring to is tiered PvP. They don't pit a T1 tank against a top tier tank.
The problem with that idea is that its not just ship tiers we gotta consider in STO, its gear. We've had people that put mk XIV Gold gear on a T1 ship and frickin' go crazy in Infected for fun. With so many variables, we can't really do a tiered system because then we'd have to integrate some kind of "Gear Score" system to insure that we're not pitting fresh people with basic gear against veterans with epic gear. Also... adding a Gear Score system would just give the elitests another means of discriminating against players by saying "if you don't have X Gear Score you are a failure and must go back to normal so GTFO n00b."

Not only that, with the lateral level gain of Specializations, a Fresh lv 50 with no spec points will be at a bit of a disadvantage against a lv 60 with even one full spec tree.

STO has too many variables to integrate some kind of tiered PvP system.

davefenestrator

I'd rather the developers put the effort into other work and let PvP continue to rot.

@metallica#9475 have you tried Eve Online? It's supposedly non-stop PvP 24x7x365.

orondis

STO PvP is pretty much beyond saving.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

kjfett

lucianazeta wrote: »

bossheisenberg wrote: »

For those who haven't played World of Tanks, what is it about PvP from that game that is needed in STO?

I've played it and I have no clue, I find it to be slow and dreadful, get killed and you have to sit out the entire match as a spectator.

They let you jump out and play other tanks now. It cuts down on the hate talk in chat from all the dead players looking over the live tanker's shoulders.

I really don't see any possible way to bring WoT PVP to STO. Sure you could do 15v15, but the play in WoT is about skill in driving and accuracy with the cannon...taking into account, lead and arch, etc. None of that applies in STO.

captainhunter1

Umm. yeah... NO.

Two entirely different game types and styles.

You may as well ask for a 'roleplaying' version of World of Tanks over on their forums.

lighte007

Let's see the only way that would work if there was a Shooter Mode for Space Combat... oh wait...

markhawkman

kjfett wrote: »

lucianazeta wrote: »

bossheisenberg wrote: »

For those who haven't played World of Tanks, what is it about PvP from that game that is needed in STO?

I've played it and I have no clue, I find it to be slow and dreadful, get killed and you have to sit out the entire match as a spectator.

They let you jump out and play other tanks now. It cuts down on the hate talk in chat from all the dead players looking over the live tanker's shoulders.

I really don't see any possible way to bring WoT PVP to STO. Sure you could do 15v15, but the play in WoT is about skill in driving and accuracy with the cannon...taking into account, lead and arch, etc. None of that applies in STO.

I heard it also has gold shop ammo that does stupid damage too.

wildweasal

Look folks for six years they have not done anything to be VP now they have two consul versions out not all been a lot of consul gamers love pvp with games like Star Wars battlefront, call of duty, battlefield, halo PVP content, etc. etc. etc. as much is you or some other people like not to face it PVP is a big thing and it actually is a huge moneymaker and is it coming to Star Trek online? Yes it's coming back why? because of PVP there a lot of people that will stay with the game they will be here for stories or winter events or summer events or any of that stupidity they are here for PVP.... now the PVP in this game as it stands is awful, they knew that .....they chose not to address it...... I blame gecko for that plain and simple ....but now with the release of the console versions most of those gamers while the game is pretty cool in the beginning and there are a lot of missions to do in the end it will come back to PVP..... and console gamers love their PVP so yes they'll have to address it will be overhaul the system the question is when? I suspect they probably won't address it until March of next year.... But I assure you it is coming... Trust me on that one.......Oh and one more thing the general consensus is that PVP is dead in this game I disagree with channels like organizedPVP (enter it just like that) and kerrat battles that happen all the time it's there.... It never went anywhere people love it and play it every day you just have to know where to go...The big problem is as I see it right now all these meatheads run around with their DPS builds how great they are but they seem to forget and I said it 500 times PvE builds do not work in PVP the meta-is totally different but hey listen they come in and gets murdered never come back nay way I digress

davefenestrator

( Wall of text crits for 4,500,000 points )

"... But I assure you it is coming... Trust me on that one......."

Nope.

markhawkman

"console gamers" this, "console gamers" that... lol nope.

redeyedraven

Some players do actually seem to like STO's PVP... so WoT-PVP should be like STO-PVP. o.ô

the only Thing PVP in STO could really Need would be *truly* seperate PVP- and PVE-gears and corresponding loadouts. Just to make things more even. On even terms, STO's PVP can be perfectly fun. Which is kinda why channels like organizedpvp exist. It's an MMO. Players can communicate. They can meet on PVP-grounds on pre-made terms to even things up.

bossheisenberg

Banning feedback pulse and invincibility from PvP would be a good start.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

trennan

patrickngo wrote: »

wildweasal wrote: »

Look folks for six years they have not done anything to be VP now they have two consul versions out not all been a lot of consul gamers love pvp with games like Star Wars battlefront, call of duty, battlefield, halo PVP content, etc. etc. etc. as much is you or some other people like not to face it PVP is a big thing and it actually is a huge moneymaker and is it coming to Star Trek online? Yes it's coming back why? because of PVP there a lot of people that will stay with the game they will be here for stories or winter events or summer events or any of that stupidity they are here for PVP.... now the PVP in this game as it stands is awful, they knew that .....they chose not to address it...... I blame gecko for that plain and simple ....but now with the release of the console versions most of those gamers while the game is pretty cool in the beginning and there are a lot of missions to do in the end it will come back to PVP..... and console gamers love their PVP so yes they'll have to address it will be overhaul the system the question is when? I suspect they probably won't address it until March of next year.... But I assure you it is coming... Trust me on that one.......Oh and one more thing the general consensus is that PVP is dead in this game I disagree with channels like organizedPVP (enter it just like that) and kerrat battles that happen all the time it's there.... It never went anywhere people love it and play it every day you just have to know where to go...The big problem is as I see it right now all these meatheads run around with their DPS builds how great they are but they seem to forget and I said it 500 times PvE builds do not work in PVP the meta-is totally different but hey listen they come in and gets murdered never come back nay way I digress

you don't get it.

NO. They're NOT going to address PvP. Doesn't really matter what happens with the consoles, because regardless of demand, nobody left at Cryptic even understands enough to get started at addressing PvP, dealing with the basic problems that have killed it as a viable community, and further, nobody at Cryptic is left who wants to learn how.

Their 'ace' systems guy (Borticus) doesn't comprehend what's wrong with uncounterable abilities. Seriously, listen to his interview with Timberwolf earlier this year-dude does not understand that adding a pay-only ability set that stacks and can't be countered except by another pay-only ability, both of which are for the most part isolated to a single branch of a single faction, is a bad idea in a game that is allegedly multi-faction. He also doesn't comprehend what could possibly be wrong with outright immune to damage abilities that can likewise be stacked back-to-back.

He doesn't get the idea that area-of-effect should not be stronger against single targets than higher-level single-target abilities.

basically fail on Mechanical balance.

so what about factional balance? yeah. Geko doesn't get that one. He doesn't get the idea that you don't strip abilities from a smaller portion of the playerbase to give to the larger portion and still maintain viable numbers in that smaller portion-if you're going to have factions, they need to be different. Closest he came was (quoting P1 from last year) "...we made the Romulans OP...on purpose".

Alright, so scenario balance...scenario balancing allows customization and a lot of powercreep while still providing objectively balanced matches-and balanced matches are critical to PVP viability. one-sided stomps are not fun for anyone that isn't already a douchebag, the PvP market tends to prefer fights that are...well...fights. That whole 'risk of losing' makes the win actually taste like something besides pointless grind.

tell me, have you seen any indication of a matchmaking system in STO since it was "just around the corner" in 2010?? hmmm?

nope, didn't think so. The guy who was working on that bit was fired in 2011.

with no replacement incoming.

FACT:

Geko, 2012, described his vision of a PvP player, as "...a fourteen year old min/maxer living in his mother's basement".

FACT. STO turns a profit, and has turned a profit since going F2P, solely reliant upon selling power through gambleboxes and similar promotions, no P2W game has ever had a healthy PvP community, and STO is purely Pay to Win by design-they sell power, that's their marketing strategy. It has lasted this long, because Star Trek fans will buy in just to keep the property open-which is the other half of the business plan, and why PvP will get zero development even with the Konsole Kids demanding it.

What will happen instead, is that they'll wait to publish the numbers until most of the people who want it, have left in disgust, then say they're "Servicing the majority" just as they have done on PC.

this is not a fight that can be won, it's not a fight that's worth fighting, sorry to tell ya, this is a battle that was lost in 2012, and it's not going to go any other way. Instead, what is going to happen, is that there will be a brief renaissance until they get all the goodies piled onto the console servers, then there will be another fast drop in PvP population, and even if it sets off alarms, it's not something anyone at Cryptic even has the capability, forget the willingness, to address.

Any fight can be won. But you did hit the nail on the head. STO has to many blind consumers, that continue to buy without thought to anything else. That's the nice part about capitalism, the consumer holds the money, therefore the power. Anyone that does not realize this has long since left being a consumer behind and became a sheep.

Also, never trust any metrics posted by any company. They're always going to be adjusted to make the company look better. When a game company mentions metrics, as a player, you should half those numbers right off. The whole point of them is to look better for their investors.

Cryptic could do something about PvP. It would require they do the same thing here, that Tera and Guild Wars does. Put everyone on equal footing. Meaning they would have to cut out T5 and T6 ships, Fleet equipment, and all those consoles that come with ships and lockboxes. But this will never happen. Because then the "Waaahh-bulance" would be all over the forums from people crying about not being able to use their "God Mode" equipment.

starkaos

trennan wrote: »

patrickngo wrote: »

wildweasal wrote: »

Look folks for six years they have not done anything to be VP now they have two consul versions out not all been a lot of consul gamers love pvp with games like Star Wars battlefront, call of duty, battlefield, halo PVP content, etc. etc. etc. as much is you or some other people like not to face it PVP is a big thing and it actually is a huge moneymaker and is it coming to Star Trek online? Yes it's coming back why? because of PVP there a lot of people that will stay with the game they will be here for stories or winter events or summer events or any of that stupidity they are here for PVP.... now the PVP in this game as it stands is awful, they knew that .....they chose not to address it...... I blame gecko for that plain and simple ....but now with the release of the console versions most of those gamers while the game is pretty cool in the beginning and there are a lot of missions to do in the end it will come back to PVP..... and console gamers love their PVP so yes they'll have to address it will be overhaul the system the question is when? I suspect they probably won't address it until March of next year.... But I assure you it is coming... Trust me on that one.......Oh and one more thing the general consensus is that PVP is dead in this game I disagree with channels like organizedPVP (enter it just like that) and kerrat battles that happen all the time it's there.... It never went anywhere people love it and play it every day you just have to know where to go...The big problem is as I see it right now all these meatheads run around with their DPS builds how great they are but they seem to forget and I said it 500 times PvE builds do not work in PVP the meta-is totally different but hey listen they come in and gets murdered never come back nay way I digress

you don't get it.

NO. They're NOT going to address PvP. Doesn't really matter what happens with the consoles, because regardless of demand, nobody left at Cryptic even understands enough to get started at addressing PvP, dealing with the basic problems that have killed it as a viable community, and further, nobody at Cryptic is left who wants to learn how.

Their 'ace' systems guy (Borticus) doesn't comprehend what's wrong with uncounterable abilities. Seriously, listen to his interview with Timberwolf earlier this year-dude does not understand that adding a pay-only ability set that stacks and can't be countered except by another pay-only ability, both of which are for the most part isolated to a single branch of a single faction, is a bad idea in a game that is allegedly multi-faction. He also doesn't comprehend what could possibly be wrong with outright immune to damage abilities that can likewise be stacked back-to-back.

He doesn't get the idea that area-of-effect should not be stronger against single targets than higher-level single-target abilities.

basically fail on Mechanical balance.

so what about factional balance? yeah. Geko doesn't get that one. He doesn't get the idea that you don't strip abilities from a smaller portion of the playerbase to give to the larger portion and still maintain viable numbers in that smaller portion-if you're going to have factions, they need to be different. Closest he came was (quoting P1 from last year) "...we made the Romulans OP...on purpose".

Alright, so scenario balance...scenario balancing allows customization and a lot of powercreep while still providing objectively balanced matches-and balanced matches are critical to PVP viability. one-sided stomps are not fun for anyone that isn't already a douchebag, the PvP market tends to prefer fights that are...well...fights. That whole 'risk of losing' makes the win actually taste like something besides pointless grind.

tell me, have you seen any indication of a matchmaking system in STO since it was "just around the corner" in 2010?? hmmm?

nope, didn't think so. The guy who was working on that bit was fired in 2011.

with no replacement incoming.

FACT:

Geko, 2012, described his vision of a PvP player, as "...a fourteen year old min/maxer living in his mother's basement".

FACT. STO turns a profit, and has turned a profit since going F2P, solely reliant upon selling power through gambleboxes and similar promotions, no P2W game has ever had a healthy PvP community, and STO is purely Pay to Win by design-they sell power, that's their marketing strategy. It has lasted this long, because Star Trek fans will buy in just to keep the property open-which is the other half of the business plan, and why PvP will get zero development even with the Konsole Kids demanding it.

What will happen instead, is that they'll wait to publish the numbers until most of the people who want it, have left in disgust, then say they're "Servicing the majority" just as they have done on PC.

this is not a fight that can be won, it's not a fight that's worth fighting, sorry to tell ya, this is a battle that was lost in 2012, and it's not going to go any other way. Instead, what is going to happen, is that there will be a brief renaissance until they get all the goodies piled onto the console servers, then there will be another fast drop in PvP population, and even if it sets off alarms, it's not something anyone at Cryptic even has the capability, forget the willingness, to address.

Any fight can be won. But you did hit the nail on the head. STO has to many blind consumers, that continue to buy without thought to anything else. That's the nice part about capitalism, the consumer holds the money, therefore the power. Anyone that does not realize this has long since left being a consumer behind and became a sheep.

Also, never trust any metrics posted by any company. They're always going to be adjusted to make the company look better. When a game company mentions metrics, as a player, you should half those numbers right off. The whole point of them is to look better for their investors.

Cryptic could do something about PvP. It would require they do the same thing here, that Tera and Guild Wars does. Put everyone on equal footing. Meaning they would have to cut out T5 and T6 ships, Fleet equipment, and all those consoles that come with ships and lockboxes. But this will never happen. Because then the "Waaahh-bulance" would be all over the forums from people crying about not being able to use their "God Mode" equipment.

Which is why the idea of adding a PvP mode to equipment and skills is a popular idea. PvEers will always complain when their equipment and abilities is nerfed due to PvP since balance is meaningless for consideration in PvE. The more OP a player is, the quicker they can finish a queue. However for actual balance, the only possible method is doing what SWTOR did with their Galactic Starfighter system. Everyone is forced to pick from a bunch of ships that has fixed stats and fixed abilities with the only possible customization is the paint job.

wildweasal

patrickngo wrote: »

wildweasal wrote: »

Look folks for six years they have not done anything to be VP now they have two consul versions out not all been a lot of consul gamers love pvp with games like Star Wars battlefront, call of duty, battlefield, halo PVP content, etc. etc. etc. as much is you or some other people like not to face it PVP is a big thing and it actually is a huge moneymaker and is it coming to Star Trek online? Yes it's coming back why? because of PVP there a lot of people that will stay with the game they will be here for stories or winter events or summer events or any of that stupidity they are here for PVP.... now the PVP in this game as it stands is awful, they knew that .....they chose not to address it...... I blame gecko for that plain and simple ....but now with the release of the console versions most of those gamers while the game is pretty cool in the beginning and there are a lot of missions to do in the end it will come back to PVP..... and console gamers love their PVP so yes they'll have to address it will be overhaul the system the question is when? I suspect they probably won't address it until March of next year.... But I assure you it is coming... Trust me on that one.......Oh and one more thing the general consensus is that PVP is dead in this game I disagree with channels like organizedPVP (enter it just like that) and kerrat battles that happen all the time it's there.... It never went anywhere people love it and play it every day you just have to know where to go...The big problem is as I see it right now all these meatheads run around with their DPS builds how great they are but they seem to forget and I said it 500 times PvE builds do not work in PVP the meta-is totally different but hey listen they come in and gets murdered never come back nay way I digress

you don't get it.

NO. They're NOT going to address PvP. Doesn't really matter what happens with the consoles, because regardless of demand, nobody left at Cryptic even understands enough to get started at addressing PvP, dealing with the basic problems that have killed it as a viable community, and further, nobody at Cryptic is left who wants to learn how.

Their 'ace' systems guy (Borticus) doesn't comprehend what's wrong with uncounterable abilities. Seriously, listen to his interview with Timberwolf earlier this year-dude does not understand that adding a pay-only ability set that stacks and can't be countered except by another pay-only ability, both of which are for the most part isolated to a single branch of a single faction, is a bad idea in a game that is allegedly multi-faction. He also doesn't comprehend what could possibly be wrong with outright immune to damage abilities that can likewise be stacked back-to-back.

He doesn't get the idea that area-of-effect should not be stronger against single targets than higher-level single-target abilities.

basically fail on Mechanical balance.

so what about factional balance? yeah. Geko doesn't get that one. He doesn't get the idea that you don't strip abilities from a smaller portion of the playerbase to give to the larger portion and still maintain viable numbers in that smaller portion-if you're going to have factions, they need to be different. Closest he came was (quoting P1 from last year) "...we made the Romulans OP...on purpose".

Alright, so scenario balance...scenario balancing allows customization and a lot of powercreep while still providing objectively balanced matches-and balanced matches are critical to PVP viability. one-sided stomps are not fun for anyone that isn't already a douchebag, the PvP market tends to prefer fights that are...well...fights. That whole 'risk of losing' makes the win actually taste like something besides pointless grind.

tell me, have you seen any indication of a matchmaking system in STO since it was "just around the corner" in 2010?? hmmm?

nope, didn't think so. The guy who was working on that bit was fired in 2011.

with no replacement incoming.

FACT:

Geko, 2012, described his vision of a PvP player, as "...a fourteen year old min/maxer living in his mother's basement".

FACT. STO turns a profit, and has turned a profit since going F2P, solely reliant upon selling power through gambleboxes and similar promotions, no P2W game has ever had a healthy PvP community, and STO is purely Pay to Win by design-they sell power, that's their marketing strategy. It has lasted this long, because Star Trek fans will buy in just to keep the property open-which is the other half of the business plan, and why PvP will get zero development even with the Konsole Kids demanding it.

What will happen instead, is that they'll wait to publish the numbers until most of the people who want it, have left in disgust, then say they're "Servicing the majority" just as they have done on PC.

this is not a fight that can be won, it's not a fight that's worth fighting, sorry to tell ya, this is a battle that was lost in 2012, and it's not going to go any other way. Instead, what is going to happen, is that there will be a brief renaissance until they get all the goodies piled onto the console servers, then there will be another fast drop in PvP population, and even if it sets off alarms, it's not something anyone at Cryptic even has the capability, forget the willingness, to address.

its coming and by the way OP to hell with WOT armored warfare is soooo much a better game....you know it true

and why do I say its coming??? if nothing else its a revenue stream and when all the profits reach ahead and they want more ....because they will always want more someone with a ferengi face will stand up in the meeting and say one dollar is better than no dollar and right now that revenue stream is giving you no money at all so fix it and get something out of it even if its one dollar

markhawkman

starkaos wrote: »

Which is why the idea of adding a PvP mode to equipment and skills is a popular idea. PvEers will always complain when their equipment and abilities is nerfed due to PvP since balance is meaningless for consideration in PvE. The more OP a player is, the quicker they can finish a queue. However for actual balance, the only possible method is doing what SWTOR did with their Galactic Starfighter system. Everyone is forced to pick from a bunch of ships that has fixed stats and fixed abilities with the only possible customization is the paint job.

The problem is the amount of balancing work that would have to go into it. I'm pretty sure the STO devs would rather just rebalance for general use.

trennan

wildweasal wrote: »

patrickngo wrote: »

wildweasal wrote: »

Look folks for six years they have not done anything to be VP now they have two consul versions out not all been a lot of consul gamers love pvp with games like Star Wars battlefront, call of duty, battlefield, halo PVP content, etc. etc. etc. as much is you or some other people like not to face it PVP is a big thing and it actually is a huge moneymaker and is it coming to Star Trek online? Yes it's coming back why? because of PVP there a lot of people that will stay with the game they will be here for stories or winter events or summer events or any of that stupidity they are here for PVP.... now the PVP in this game as it stands is awful, they knew that .....they chose not to address it...... I blame gecko for that plain and simple ....but now with the release of the console versions most of those gamers while the game is pretty cool in the beginning and there are a lot of missions to do in the end it will come back to PVP..... and console gamers love their PVP so yes they'll have to address it will be overhaul the system the question is when? I suspect they probably won't address it until March of next year.... But I assure you it is coming... Trust me on that one.......Oh and one more thing the general consensus is that PVP is dead in this game I disagree with channels like organizedPVP (enter it just like that) and kerrat battles that happen all the time it's there.... It never went anywhere people love it and play it every day you just have to know where to go...The big problem is as I see it right now all these meatheads run around with their DPS builds how great they are but they seem to forget and I said it 500 times PvE builds do not work in PVP the meta-is totally different but hey listen they come in and gets murdered never come back nay way I digress

you don't get it.

NO. They're NOT going to address PvP. Doesn't really matter what happens with the consoles, because regardless of demand, nobody left at Cryptic even understands enough to get started at addressing PvP, dealing with the basic problems that have killed it as a viable community, and further, nobody at Cryptic is left who wants to learn how.

Their 'ace' systems guy (Borticus) doesn't comprehend what's wrong with uncounterable abilities. Seriously, listen to his interview with Timberwolf earlier this year-dude does not understand that adding a pay-only ability set that stacks and can't be countered except by another pay-only ability, both of which are for the most part isolated to a single branch of a single faction, is a bad idea in a game that is allegedly multi-faction. He also doesn't comprehend what could possibly be wrong with outright immune to damage abilities that can likewise be stacked back-to-back.

He doesn't get the idea that area-of-effect should not be stronger against single targets than higher-level single-target abilities.

basically fail on Mechanical balance.

so what about factional balance? yeah. Geko doesn't get that one. He doesn't get the idea that you don't strip abilities from a smaller portion of the playerbase to give to the larger portion and still maintain viable numbers in that smaller portion-if you're going to have factions, they need to be different. Closest he came was (quoting P1 from last year) "...we made the Romulans OP...on purpose".

Alright, so scenario balance...scenario balancing allows customization and a lot of powercreep while still providing objectively balanced matches-and balanced matches are critical to PVP viability. one-sided stomps are not fun for anyone that isn't already a douchebag, the PvP market tends to prefer fights that are...well...fights. That whole 'risk of losing' makes the win actually taste like something besides pointless grind.

tell me, have you seen any indication of a matchmaking system in STO since it was "just around the corner" in 2010?? hmmm?

nope, didn't think so. The guy who was working on that bit was fired in 2011.

with no replacement incoming.

FACT:

Geko, 2012, described his vision of a PvP player, as "...a fourteen year old min/maxer living in his mother's basement".

FACT. STO turns a profit, and has turned a profit since going F2P, solely reliant upon selling power through gambleboxes and similar promotions, no P2W game has ever had a healthy PvP community, and STO is purely Pay to Win by design-they sell power, that's their marketing strategy. It has lasted this long, because Star Trek fans will buy in just to keep the property open-which is the other half of the business plan, and why PvP will get zero development even with the Konsole Kids demanding it.

What will happen instead, is that they'll wait to publish the numbers until most of the people who want it, have left in disgust, then say they're "Servicing the majority" just as they have done on PC.

this is not a fight that can be won, it's not a fight that's worth fighting, sorry to tell ya, this is a battle that was lost in 2012, and it's not going to go any other way. Instead, what is going to happen, is that there will be a brief renaissance until they get all the goodies piled onto the console servers, then there will be another fast drop in PvP population, and even if it sets off alarms, it's not something anyone at Cryptic even has the capability, forget the willingness, to address.

its coming and by the way OP to hell with WOT armored warfare is soooo much a better game....you know it true

and why do I say its coming??? if nothing else its a revenue stream and when all the profits reach ahead and they want more ....because they will always want more someone with a ferengi face will stand up in the meeting and say one dollar is better than no dollar and right now that revenue stream is giving you no money at all so fix it and get something out of it even if its one dollar

Funny thing is. The balance is already there. What most people fail to realize is that the game is balanced. It's just balanced around three things. Here is the list of the three things the game is balanced around:

Level 40 Promotion Ships
The Skill Tree
Mk XII gear.

Any Mk XIII gear or higher. Any T5+ Ship. Any point spent in a specialization is stepping out the world of balance. While the they are in game. These are all for OP PvE. The game itself is not balanced around them.

This is why in another post I mentioned. Giving everyone a dual spec. A PvE Spec and a PvP Spec. Entering PvP should be a choice, no need to force the player. By electing to join a PvP match with this setup. You're electing to have all your PvE specializations, ships, and consoles disabled. You're electing to step in to a world where your personal skill will matter far more than your equipment.

So for this you balance it around three things. Ships, with preset stats and no traits. Of course divided in to the Escort, Cruiser, and Science Ships. The level 40 promotion ships would be a good start here. There are no epic consoles from bought ships or lockboxes. There are no fleet variants one can use. All you have is the standardized MK of the appropriate level for you, ground and space. At best I'd go UR on this.

Then you have your pvp skill tree and specialization. Which, can only be leveled through PvP.

Then from here I'd make the public queues give a reward, and private queues give no reward. This way, the public queues can still be run as teams. But those same teams can't get together to farm the rewards in a private queue. This leaves the private queues for the players to spar, test, and even run tournaments.

Then as you level up your pvp, it does open up higher tier ships and equipment. Though, all of them being basic stats and no extras. None of which can be bought with cash money. It all has to be earned through PvP.

Now the thing here is R&D. People are going to want to craft PvP Gear. Which this is not a bad thing. This just means, with the balanced out ships and equipment. Then the freebie stuff is all the same stat and mod wise. crafting PvP would be where the different PvP mods would come from. Which can be done for every Mk, just put a 20 hour timer on every piece. That way a Mk II and an MK XII piece take the same amount of time to make.

So lets say to do this, you make a faction PvP lobby. Everyone that goes here can look at ships and equipment. This is also where you adjust your PvP skill tree. I make this a free adjustment tree. That way, players are free to toy around with it.

Then it just a matter of balancing it. Which for this, I'd give the players a queue selection for entering the lobby. Since level 10 is basically the starting point for the game. Set that as the minimum to enter. Then allow the players to queue for every 10 levels, i.e. 10, 20, 30, 40, etc. Then scale them to the appropriate level. This way if a level 60 player, queues for a level 10 match. The level 60 player is scaled back to a level 10 ship, skill tree, and specialization. Of course you could just scale everyone up to level 60.

This then separates PvE and PvP. Allowing the PvE to remain as unbalanced and broken as the players love it. But offering balanced PvP to the players as well. The only problem here is that Cryptic will need to ignore those that cry and complain about not being able to throw their wallets at PvP. The only thing I'd offer in the Z store for PvP is exp boosters.

starkaos

markhawkman wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

Which is why the idea of adding a PvP mode to equipment and skills is a popular idea. PvEers will always complain when their equipment and abilities is nerfed due to PvP since balance is meaningless for consideration in PvE. The more OP a player is, the quicker they can finish a queue. However for actual balance, the only possible method is doing what SWTOR did with their Galactic Starfighter system. Everyone is forced to pick from a bunch of ships that has fixed stats and fixed abilities with the only possible customization is the paint job.

The problem is the amount of balancing work that would have to go into it. I'm pretty sure the STO devs would rather just rebalance for general use.

Which is why I mentioned Galactic Starfighter. Producing a PvE and PvP version of each console, set ability, bridge officer ability, and captain power is far too much work for Cryptic. Modifying 10 current ships that players are forced to choose from for PvP with each type of ship having the exact same abilities and stats is something that Cryptic can accomplish.

Far too many PvP games use the Team Fortress 2 style of games where you are forced to play as a certain character with a limited number of abilities that you can use. It is far easier to balance 10 character with fixed abilities than it is to balance STO. So Cryptic can either try the impossible task of balancing the current game or they can simplify PvP.

bobbydazlers

the thing with world of tanks is they have 1000s of players just doing pvp and nothing else so it is very easy to make 2 groups of opposing teams that are very closely matched statistically.
with sto the vast majority of players will be doing some pve story mission so there is not enough players doing pvp to make teams up that are statistically matched so the chances are more often then not you would get one team that is significantly stronger then the opposing team and the match is won before you begin.

also there is very little you can do in world of tanks to create an advantage where as there is such a large variety of weapons consoles and other things that can tip the balance one way or the other and trying to work out the stats for everything that adds to your overall performance is a statistical nightmare even 1 on 1 let alone 5 on 5 or 10 on 10.

panzerbjorne39

PATRICKNGO pretty much said it all. OP, stick with WoT for your PvP fun, STO is a lost cause.

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warmaker001b

All the talk about a PVP Tier System, whether taking up Wargaming's or using / tweaking STO's current form is irrelevant. PVP has been murdered in this game long ago. Which is too bad, because it used to be quite dynamic and Feds & KDF used to be very passionate about their factions.

gaalom

I think everyone already covered the issues here op, but just in case the points were not made, I will put it in my own words. The first problem is a tier system means less people qing up for pvp, because they will be scattered across too many tiers. Its not like pvp in sto has ever been a huge thing, except for maybe at the beginning when the KDF was purely a pvp faction. The other problem as another poster pointed out is the gear. Read the posts in this thread for details. Another problem is lack of rewards. If pvp is ever going to make a come back, it is going to have to reward some amazing things to get people interested again. Not to mention it needs a revamp, and a story to bring back faction vrs faction. Allot of feds are dead set against that. This last aspect already mentioned is people say they want balanced pvp but in reality they do not want balanced pvp. What they want in reality is a all powerfull god mode to destroy everyone else. If they made pvp perfectly balanced the amount of rage on the forums would be out of control if pvp was a main function in sto to begin with. Me I love pvp in allot of games, but right now, there is no point to it. So I enjoy a good ground battle on Kobali prime, or the Dyson sphere to scratch that itch. This game offers what is it eight different reps, and some of those reps offer unique zones, such as the ground dyson sphere, the ground kobali trench warefare, and the ground Nukara experience. I would suggest you lessen up on the grind op and look around for something among the reps you might enjoy.

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trennan

patrickngo wrote: »

let's expand on the problem, shall we?

1. Accessibility: while the option exists to play pvp at low level, nobody takes it. Ker'rat is open from something like level 10 onward, but it's a graveyard until level 60. To be viable at level 60 requires 160 hours of post-level grinding minimum, access to at least 2 Tier Six ships for traits (lockbox, Event, or pay-for-it with Zen), Spec trees filled in at least two places, and Rep traits you might've been able to grind on your own to get there. This is to be "Gear viable"-stats that if you don't have them, you're a drag on your team and going to lose. Not even a matter of 'might lose', and if you're running mkXII then you're running Fleet with the crafted consoles from the Crafting science and crafting engineering as bare minimums, so it's also expensive in other ways-and that's just to get started.
2. Relevance: The war is over. the activity itself offers no contribution or impact to the game, setting, factions, nothing.
3. Balance: Powers are not balanced, Careers are not balanced, Factions are not balanced and Scenarios are not balanced. Specifically to PvP. PvE is, as Gaalom noted, 'balanced' on the assumption of everyone in a free level 40 ship with no Rep, Spec, or Fleet gear, running stock layouts with 'drop' consoles.

added to that, was the addition with AoY of ships that break the balance at LOW levels-but only for Feds who did their character gen as 23rd Century Starfleet-and those ships cost money (*well, Zen, anyway)

There are three basic ways to balance a wargame;

1. Balance the powers-this is something that requires more care and thought than cryptic can even afford, and it requires constant maintenance to keep going in a game with customization options. Powers-balanced games resemble Team Fortress and rely heavily on stock characters with very little beyond cosmetics for customization. STO already can't do this without doing so much work it's going to cost as much as a new game. Powers balance is out.
2. Faction Balance: STO started with this, but it's been eroded. Faction balance doesn't mean homogeneity, it means that while your factions have about an equal chance, they get there doing things differently. Example: Starcraft, Starcraft II, Age of Empires, WoW. To achieve this, would require dedicated dev staff that talk to one another, a lot more staff than Cryptic has, because it's only slightly less man-hours intensive than balancing powers. I don't see that happening.
3. Scenario Balance. Used in wargaming for a long time, specific examples include the Battlevalue system from Battletech, or points systems common to games like CAV. How it works is simply that each scenario has an objective points value with a plus or minus of 10%, Teams entering the arena, or other instance fall within that 10% and in theory, it's a breakdown of 40/40/20 where the 20% represents actual player skill and random luck, the other two numbers represent the chance of that side winning on stats alone.
In video games, Scenario Balancing is often termed "Matchmaking". It permits asymmetrical matches and fights (meaning unequal numbers of players), it also permits asymmetry in builds and build types. It is fundamentally flexible enough to provide balanced matches where one side has 3 players, and the other side has as many as 10.

Cryptic gave up on even developing a Scenario Balancing mechanic in 2010, in spite of having the bones of one in the code they ripped from City of Heroes when they built this game on the same engine.

Scenario balancing cures the Accessibility problem, and the Balance problem in one go. It's never going to happen, because it would require hundreds of man-hours of work determining and assigning the values and multipliers for every piece of kit in the game from your ships to your weapons to your consoles to your Specializations and passives, then it would require an algorithm that takes that data, compiles it with the other players in the queue, and determines the relative strength (gear strength only) of each 'team' before opening an Arena or C&H-to get teams that are within 10% of one another. It requires in-depth knowledge and understanding of the game's mechanics, and it would require updating as new unit types and gear types are added.

Cryptic can't afford to put someone in that seat-and it would require multiple someones to actually do the job of building it, along with someone dedicated enough to maintain it as their primary job. Budget says no-because in the end, it would require hiring someone who understands on a fundamental level (as opposed to classroom level) the mechanics of the game and the objective of scenario balancing...and nobody presently on cryptic staff has a grasp of those issues.

It would also require PvP to be RELEVANT to the game. That's been something dedicatedly removed from the game since Geko became Lead developer. PvP has no storyline relevance, since 2014 and the change to the queues to eliminate factions, it has no factional relevance either. There's no draw for new players to try it out or for old players to come back to it should such changes occur.

PvP doesn't get you better gear=grinding PvE gets you better gear.
PvP doesn't fill your Spec pool-grinding PvE fills your spec pool.
PvP doesn't fill your fleet coffers-this was a natural reaction to abuses by players in 2012. People were staging private instance fights where one side threw the match to power-grind marks and dilithium, it was an actual exploit.

Lack of scenario balance is why Cryptic had to remove PvP rewards to begin with...

There is a sort of rule-of-inertia with people as much as with physics. The inertia and momentum at Cryptic is to make pvp unplayable. The level of changes necessary to reverse it is more than the company can likely afford to invest in something that has been, for four years, a minority in decline-not just as a percentage of the playerbase, but also in terms of raw numbers. The task is too large, with no guarantee (at this point) of revenue increases, particularly when you have a lead developer who is hostile to the whole idea and has used passive-aggressive stances when he's been forced to work on things he doesn't like or to serve customer bases he doesn't want to serve. (Witness: Bortasque, what happened after it failed to sell, Varanus, etc.)

in simple terms, regardless of what happens console-side, PvP will not get development. IF it gets anything, it's going to be on the same vein as Shuttle/smallcraft arena-so poorly concieved that even diehard PvP players won't touch it once they've run it for the first time.

IOW BUILT TO FAIL.

This was intentional-nobody could **** up that badly by accident, or with positive intentions. I have NO hypothesis that explains the presence of PvP as an option for Console beyond "They couldn't be bothered to remove it" because this is an activity that sees LESS involvement than the Exploration Clusters they removed two years ago for lack of use.

there is simply zero involvement at Cryptic's end, hell, the last developer that even tried PvP (in this game)was gone by 2014. the last Community Manager who tried it was Branflakes (gone by mid-2013). (Borticus only talks to his friends now-and they're only his friends because they walk on eggshells around him.)

Let us no forget to add to this, that Geko is still being a crybaby over his precious Excelsior being popped like a zit by the KDF in PvP the day after it was released in 2013. I was on that day. It was funny as hell. Then the podcast where he was mad about it and said he hated the KDF because of it, was even funnier.

The only thing that he has kept to from those days is, not working on anything that isn't for the Federation.