Yeah, most Cardassians were apparently sheeple who did whatever the government told them to do...
I think sheeple doesn't do it justice, either. As overstated as the OP's case for the Cardassian people is, they had certain ideals elevated. Just like we value freedom and, say, the pursuit of happiness (or at least you Americans do ), they considered the service for the state extremely important. And that easily leads to the trap into thinking you can't question the state.
The point of failure for most societies IMO is that they stop questioning themselves and fail to deal with critique.
Which is why the Federation always comes out on top in the Star Trek - even if you have some Admiral that might think that this whole freedom thing is overrated and they need to take action to "save the Federation", there is a mindset in the Federation and in Starfleet that will cause people to question him and stop him, if neccessary. Every time we see one of those misguided people come up, they are stopped.
But the Romulans, the Klingons, the Cardassians - they don't have this mechanism in place. The Klingons might be closest to it - as "barbaric" as we 21st century socialized humans might see their rituals for challenging a leader that is making questionable decision to a fight to death, it's an established mechanism to "veto" him.
But during the Dominion War, it basically took someone that was almost an outsider (Worf) to do this final step before it was too late. So they could use improvement.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The Nuremberg defense did not work, just to let you know.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I think both @repetitiveepic and @somtaawkhar are right... but are missing a piece of the puzzle. IMO, Cardassians are a very Orwellian society. If they were developed more fully during the Gene-run era, they would have been symbolic of Stalin's Russia. They are cruel and ruthless in the pursuit of their selfless goals.
I thought the Romulans were supposed to have been based on the Russians?
Not originally. The TOS-era Romulans were very explicitly a "Space-aged Rome". The TNG era's introduction of the Tal'Shiar kind of put a twist on things, and they ended up morphing into a National Socialist Germany-like society, with the Tal'Shiar playing the part of the pseudo-Gestapo. Like real-world Germany, despite their ruthless totalitarianism, they still maintained the ceremonial trappings of their Roman origins, harkening back to a perceived golden age.
Cardassia, on the other hand, like Soviet Russia, saw their totalitarianism as their goal. They were living in their golden age in the present--not something that had long since slipped beyond their grasp.
Soviet Russia was ideological, the Cardassians don't have an ideology, just patriotism. Love for their families and their fellow Cardassians.
Sure they do: Populism. Like the Narodnik movement that led to the Bolshevik Revolution, patriotism *IS* their ideology. Communism was an ecomomic model used to bolster the support of the working class, to get them to join the middle-class's populist movement. In history class, we read about the Bolsheviks and Russia's October Revolution as it applied to the ruling Communist Party... The Communist ideology ended up being the loudest, most overt portion of the anti-Tsarist revolution, but it was not the origins, nor even the strongest portion, of the Revolution overall. After the fall of the Tsars, it was not the economic model that kept the Soviet Union strong and united for 70 years--it was because, as one early revolutionary, David Riazanov (founder of the Marx-Engels Institute), put it, "I am Russian, my father was Russian, my father's father was Russian. My heritage is the People of the Rus. Russia is my mother and I am her loyal son. I serve the motherland, and I will die for her. I am Russian. There is nothing else."
There are numerous instances of a "superior" civilization trying to lift up an "inferior" civilization in our history. Defining one civilization as superior and another as inferior is trying to force one's beliefs on another civilization. A notable example is Europeans initially coming to the Americas.
As far as Bajorans go, humans would be violent against a civilization that was forcing their beliefs on us. Unlike most religions, Bajorans have actual scientific evidence of the prophets. The orbs before the Federation took over DS9 and the Sisko's experience with the Prophets during DS9.
I agree, the prophets are a perfect example of one race forcing beliefs upon another. Stargate handled the same topic - powerful aliens attempting to force other species to worship them - with much more agility. In DS9, the writers had difficulty conveying just how warped the bajoran culture had become due to the self-aggrandizing habits of the wormhole aliens.
The repressive religion and restrictive caste system were good steps towards that aim, but ultimately suffered from lack of budget - they had to tell, not show.
I don't troll. Your line was they have a lot to be proud of, and my reply was 'and a lot not to be'. If you had read my post, or not pretended to have not read it, about how the Cardassians were treated in Voyager you would have seen that it was not a total disagreement.
I would recommend giving 'Judgment at Nuremberg' a viewing. Here is an excerpt of one of the many great speeches within that movie that has bearing on how the Cardassians ended up acting.
'Judge Dan Haywood: Janning, to be sure, is a tragic figure. We believe he *loathed* the evil he did. But compassion for the present torture of his soul must not beget forgetfulness of the torture and death of millions by the government of which he was a part. Janning's record and his fate illuminate the most shattering truth that has emerged from this trial. If he and the other defendants were all depraved perverts - if the leaders of the Third Reich were sadistic monsters and maniacs - these events would have no more moral significance than an earthquake or other natural catastrophes. But this trial has shown that under the stress of a national crisis, men - even able and extraordinary men - can delude themselves into the commission of crimes and atrocities so vast and heinous as to stagger the imagination.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I don't troll. Your line was they have a lot to be proud of, and my reply was 'and a lot not to be'. If you had read my post, or not pretended to have not read it, about how the Cardassians were treated in Voyager you would have seen that it was not a total disagreement.
I would recommend giving 'Judgment at Nuremberg' a viewing. Here is an excerpt of one of the many great speeches within that movie that has bearing on how the Cardassians ended up acting.
'Judge Dan Haywood: Janning, to be sure, is a tragic figure. We believe he *loathed* the evil he did. But compassion for the present torture of his soul must not beget forgetfulness of the torture and death of millions by the government of which he was a part. Janning's record and his fate illuminate the most shattering truth that has emerged from this trial. If he and the other defendants were all depraved perverts - if the leaders of the Third Reich were sadistic monsters and maniacs - these events would have no more moral significance than an earthquake or other natural catastrophes. But this trial has shown that under the stress of a national crisis, men - even able and extraordinary men - can delude themselves into the commission of crimes and atrocities so vast and heinous as to stagger the imagination.'
Yes, and this is the sort of thing that comes from slavish devotion to the state.
Between Garak, Dukat & Damar, Trek will be lucky to provide a better Cardassian character, ever.
Garak, Dukat and Damar were very well developed characters all benefiting from the amount of screen time and dedicated to fleshing them out but I disagree. The best Cardassian performance Marritza/Darheel in ,"Duet". It stands out as one of the best performances in Trek; Bar none. This incredible, conflicted character addresses the culpability of citizens belonging to oppressive states; It's brilliant. It is a powerful story that transcends Trek.
Yeah, not. The actual explanation was that it was the Cardassians's transition to warmongers that nearly destroyed their society.
Please cite canon sources for this claim.
In the show and films (the only canon star trek), the current cardassian government was the salvation for their race. Before they transitioned to it, millions starved to death and died in plagues, with the dead outweighing the living to the point where they could not all be buried. The new Cardassian government was established to prevent this sort of atrocity from ever happening - and, indeed, proved effective at doing so.
The previous Cardassian civilizations built breathtaking monuments to excess, squandering their resources on beautifying corpses. The new government had their priorities in order.
The dead can do without jewels. The living cannot do without food.
There are numerous instances of a "superior" civilization trying to lift up an "inferior" civilization in our history. Defining one civilization as superior and another as inferior is trying to force one's beliefs on another civilization. A notable example is Europeans initially coming to the Americas.
As far as Bajorans go, humans would be violent against a civilization that was forcing their beliefs on us. Unlike most religions, Bajorans have actual scientific evidence of the prophets. The orbs before the Federation took over DS9 and the Sisko's experience with the Prophets during DS9.
I agree, the prophets are a perfect example of one race forcing beliefs upon another. Stargate handled the same topic - powerful aliens attempting to force other species to worship them - with much more agility. In DS9, the writers had difficulty conveying just how warped the bajoran culture had become due to the self-aggrandizing habits of the wormhole aliens.
Whaaa...?
The wormhole aliens were nothing of the kind. They lived in a dimension where time --if it existed at all-- was fluid and non-linear. They had no real comprehension of what Bajorans were until they met Sisko and it was never made clear why they sent the Orbs. They neither invited nor rejected the Bajorans' worship of them.
I have a pet theory that the Orbs were the aliens' version of exploratory probes.
If they behaved in a condescending way, well, its' not self-aggrandizing for them to recognize their superiority when they clearly are, at least in many ways. The ability to effortlessly access timestreams the way they did would be the first clue. They weren't omnipotent in the same way the Q were, or traversing the wormhole wouldn't have hurt them. Don't project your fear of religion onto the wormhole aliens. The Bajorans did that to themselves.
And if the religion aspect became more overt as the series progressed? That you can blame on the writers who seemed to forget their original concept of the Prophets.
Yeah, most Cardassians were apparently sheeple who did whatever the government told them to do...
The word "Sheeple" is a lazy term for "anyone who follows the lead of another" which happens in literally every single country/state/organizing body on the planet. If the Federation went totalitarian overnight, then you can bet that most citizens would go along with it if the case was convincing enough (external threat, internal threat, security, etc). Many crew follow the leads of their captains whether or not they personally agree with the order. It's life.
So... what would you do if Kim Jong-un ordered you to follow him?
Yeah, most Cardassians were apparently sheeple who did whatever the government told them to do...
The word "Sheeple" is a lazy term for "anyone who follows the lead of another" which happens in literally every single country/state/organizing body on the planet. If the Federation went totalitarian overnight, then you can bet that most citizens would go along with it if the case was convincing enough (external threat, internal threat, security, etc). Many crew follow the leads of their captains whether or not they personally agree with the order. It's life.
So... what would you do if Kim Jong-un ordered you to follow him?
In what context? It makes sense for North Koreans to follow Kim Jong-Un. I'm not a North Korean, and I don't like in North Korea, so it doesn't make sense for me to follow Kim Jong-Un's orders, because he's not an authority figure here.
Comments
I think sheeple doesn't do it justice, either. As overstated as the OP's case for the Cardassian people is, they had certain ideals elevated. Just like we value freedom and, say, the pursuit of happiness (or at least you Americans do
The point of failure for most societies IMO is that they stop questioning themselves and fail to deal with critique.
Which is why the Federation always comes out on top in the Star Trek - even if you have some Admiral that might think that this whole freedom thing is overrated and they need to take action to "save the Federation", there is a mindset in the Federation and in Starfleet that will cause people to question him and stop him, if neccessary. Every time we see one of those misguided people come up, they are stopped.
But the Romulans, the Klingons, the Cardassians - they don't have this mechanism in place. The Klingons might be closest to it - as "barbaric" as we 21st century socialized humans might see their rituals for challenging a leader that is making questionable decision to a fight to death, it's an established mechanism to "veto" him.
But during the Dominion War, it basically took someone that was almost an outsider (Worf) to do this final step before it was too late. So they could use improvement.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Cardassia, on the other hand, like Soviet Russia, saw their totalitarianism as their goal. They were living in their golden age in the present--not something that had long since slipped beyond their grasp.
I agree, the prophets are a perfect example of one race forcing beliefs upon another. Stargate handled the same topic - powerful aliens attempting to force other species to worship them - with much more agility. In DS9, the writers had difficulty conveying just how warped the bajoran culture had become due to the self-aggrandizing habits of the wormhole aliens.
The repressive religion and restrictive caste system were good steps towards that aim, but ultimately suffered from lack of budget - they had to tell, not show.
I would recommend giving 'Judgment at Nuremberg' a viewing. Here is an excerpt of one of the many great speeches within that movie that has bearing on how the Cardassians ended up acting.
'Judge Dan Haywood: Janning, to be sure, is a tragic figure. We believe he *loathed* the evil he did. But compassion for the present torture of his soul must not beget forgetfulness of the torture and death of millions by the government of which he was a part. Janning's record and his fate illuminate the most shattering truth that has emerged from this trial. If he and the other defendants were all depraved perverts - if the leaders of the Third Reich were sadistic monsters and maniacs - these events would have no more moral significance than an earthquake or other natural catastrophes. But this trial has shown that under the stress of a national crisis, men - even able and extraordinary men - can delude themselves into the commission of crimes and atrocities so vast and heinous as to stagger the imagination.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I support the Star Trek Battles channel.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Garak, Dukat and Damar were very well developed characters all benefiting from the amount of screen time and dedicated to fleshing them out but I disagree. The best Cardassian performance Marritza/Darheel in ,"Duet". It stands out as one of the best performances in Trek; Bar none. This incredible, conflicted character addresses the culpability of citizens belonging to oppressive states; It's brilliant. It is a powerful story that transcends Trek.
Please cite canon sources for this claim.
In the show and films (the only canon star trek), the current cardassian government was the salvation for their race. Before they transitioned to it, millions starved to death and died in plagues, with the dead outweighing the living to the point where they could not all be buried. The new Cardassian government was established to prevent this sort of atrocity from ever happening - and, indeed, proved effective at doing so.
The previous Cardassian civilizations built breathtaking monuments to excess, squandering their resources on beautifying corpses. The new government had their priorities in order.
The dead can do without jewels. The living cannot do without food.
Whaaa...?
The wormhole aliens were nothing of the kind. They lived in a dimension where time --if it existed at all-- was fluid and non-linear. They had no real comprehension of what Bajorans were until they met Sisko and it was never made clear why they sent the Orbs. They neither invited nor rejected the Bajorans' worship of them.
I have a pet theory that the Orbs were the aliens' version of exploratory probes.
If they behaved in a condescending way, well, its' not self-aggrandizing for them to recognize their superiority when they clearly are, at least in many ways. The ability to effortlessly access timestreams the way they did would be the first clue. They weren't omnipotent in the same way the Q were, or traversing the wormhole wouldn't have hurt them. Don't project your fear of religion onto the wormhole aliens. The Bajorans did that to themselves.
And if the religion aspect became more overt as the series progressed? That you can blame on the writers who seemed to forget their original concept of the Prophets.
So... what would you do if Kim Jong-un ordered you to follow him?
So you would waste a day rofl...