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-/ A Cardassian Faction Simply Could Never Work \-

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  • direwolf016#2451 direwolf016 Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    . . .the Cardassians signed another treaty forcing them to dismantle thier military, and to only have a small defense force, with the Federation being obligated to protect the Cardassians in case of invasion from another power.
    Honestly, it'd be interesting if they somehow made the Cardies a playable race under at least the Feds, if not both sides, based on that premise.
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,545 Arc User
    Borg. Tal Shiar. Romulan Empire. Cardassians. Are these losers really worth the time and effort (and money) it would cost to put them into the game? And they are losers. They get their asses handed to them regularly in both canon Star Trek and STO.
    So why would anyone want to play the losing side? Do losers attract other losers? Must be true from the large number of threads where someone professes a desire to be a lackey of the losing side.

    Or, is it deeper than that? By being on the losing side, does that make a substandard STO player feel better about themselves? Does playing as part of what I think of as the W.A.S.P. (We Are So Powerful) Group enable mediocrity and poor choices to rise to the top? In much the same way as pond scum floats on top of the stagnant and fetid water found in a bog?

    And no, W.A.S.P. is most definitely not a compliment.
    A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
  • direwolf016#2451 direwolf016 Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    -snip-
    Klingons have gotten their butts kicked in both canon and STO, as well... Not the best argument to make, IMO.
  • kavasekavase Member Posts: 771 Arc User
    I would re-word it and say, "Factions simply don't work in STO" period.
    Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    I propose a "New Link" mini faction. Following some strife in the Great Link in the Gamma Quadrant, several changelings go into exile, led by Odo. They come to ally with the New Link in the alpha quadrant, and struggle to establish themselves as a new power in the region. As a follower of this government, you wouldn't be able to play as a Changeling; but you would be able to play as Jem'hadar, Vorta, Cardassian, Karemman, or maybe even Breen and/or Deferi. These allies would all stand united behind the new link as the Cardassian government struggles with division between the Detapa Council and the True Way, the Dominion Species fracture amid their division, and the Breen and Deferi have their conflict somehow ended.

    Possible plot points to this storyline could include a new struggle against the original Dominion, the return of Gal Dukat and Sisko from their respective planes of existence, a Cardassian civil war and the establishment of peace between the Breen and the Deferi.

    Of course, this would be a mini-faction requiring individuals to ally with Fed or KDF after lvl 10, but I very easily see it being doable.

  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    azniadeet wrote: »
    Of course, this would be a mini-faction requiring individuals to ally with Fed or KDF after lvl 10, but I very easily see it being doable.

    That is the prerequisite for any future micro-faction. Mini-factions like Romulans seem to be a thing of the past and micro-factions like the TOS Starfleet is the future. Of course, choosing between the Fed or KDF after lvl 10 is not a necessity for some micro-factions. The Borg Cooperative could start at level 40 and finish their missions in time for the Delta Quadrant story arc.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    To be honest, I'd like to see all factions become mini factions. After a certain point, we all just end up on the same team. Each group can have one exclusive social zone (esd, qonos, new romulus), but outside of that, we're all on the same team after level X. Fleet Statbases can be unique, but can also be cross faction, so a fed toon can join a kdf fleet, etc.

    Just end the division. It doesn't serve a purpose at this point.
  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    Honestly I kinda feel that if we did not see the cardassians either added as a micro-faction, or added as part of the romulan faction than I think some of these other factions that are desired might work abit different. Basically as stand alone factions that we as players could lend aid to, gain reputation, and standing with them as a form of a expanded version of the current reputation system. That basically you go to them an they have several missions you can do, which could range from doing missions in a system/s to even doing certain stfs, while your standing with the faction might get you access to different equipment an even areas of the quad with unique missions in it.
  • scififan78scififan78 Member Posts: 1,383 Arc User
    I don't understand the hatred for the Cardassians. People see that siding with the Dominion is proof of Cardassia's evil intentions. When the truth is that they were forced there. The Klingon Empire ruthlessly and without provocation attacked the Cardassian Union. Yes, the Federation helped but, as soon as the Federation and Empire got into a hot war with each other, Cardassia was pushed to the wayside. The damage done, where else were they to turn to? The Romulan Star Empire?
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    The truely tragic part was that leaders like Dukat were apparently considered normal by the Spoonheads...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    You can tell what the writers generally think of Cardassians on Voyager.

    Dr. Crell Moset was portrayed as a Dr. Josef Mengele type character.

    Seska had always been a bit of a maverick doing what she wanted but seemed to get along pretty well with the crew, especially the ex-Marquis. The with the run up to the Third Season, where they decided to dump a bunch of female crew members (Kes, Seska) to make way for Seven of Nine they turned Seska into a psycho-Cardassian and got her off the ship. Coming back periodically even more psychotic than the last time. Se could have been turned into a disguised Cardassian Operative, just doing her duty as assigned, but instead they add all this other baggage onto the character.

    Sorry but the Cardassians are not the Sisters of Mercy from canon.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    Or maybe he was getting him to reveal his true inner self. Who really knows. Though we know what the 'official' line is.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    So, I take it that you have not played the Missions from Delta Rising or Future Proof.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    So the first two and a half Seasons of Voyager from 1995 to 1997 were ok then?

    Also you never saw any of the earlier Star Trek: New Voyages episodes from 2004 through 2009.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    You should check out Star Trek Continues, however.

    Glad you enjoyed it. :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    Cardassians are great, in many respects, I favour them more than the Romulans, but I wouldn't want to see them in a faction, not now. Cryptic have seemingly displayed that they're not able to fully support two factions, thus the Republic was introduced as a mini faction, and even that mini faction still requires some final touches (various doff assignments, boff aquisition and npc interactions to name a few).

    I would agree that (if) we ever saw Cardassians as playable, then they'd come to us in a TOS-style update; a couple of episodes introducing the faction to the existing timeline, and then having our characters pledging their support to the Federation or Klingon Empire. Various ships added to the C-Store for level up purposes, and then the Galor & Keldon being the preferred choice acquisition for anyone playing as a Cardassian (much in the same way anyone playing a TOS character may desire that T6 Connie).

    Cryptic know (cause they're not actually stupid) that if they released Cardassians in a form like this, people will try hard to acquire the Galor and Keldon (and maybe even a bunch of Dominion ships). That's more Master Key sales for them, and more complaining gamers on here. I don't ever see a T6 Cardassian ship in the C-Store; not when they can get more money out of (us) by putting newer Cardassian designs in through Lock Boxes.

    Edit: As far as traits go, Cardassians aren't really that different from a bunch of other species we've encountered, such as the Klingons or Romulans. Each faction have their good, bad, and ugly. Even the Federation has their equivalent. Whilst the Cardassians did enslave the Bajoran people, that's not to say the entire Cardassian species was all for it; to say otherwise would be like saying every German in WW1 or WW2 supported their cause, or that every American/Brit/European citizen supported us going into the middle east. It's simply not the case.

    We saw from the show that Cardassians are proud, and they're very family orientated (in this, similar to Klingons and Humans who also hold strong family values). Have the Cardassians done wrong? Sure, but then name me a species who hasn't. When they joined the Dominion, they were under siege by the Klingons, and the Federation wouldn't intervene. Joining the Dominion may not have been the best idea, but had they not, it's a fair shout to suggest that the Cardassians would eventually be enslaved by the Empire.
    Many of the best characters from the whole of the Star Trek canon were Cardassians.
    Between Garak, Dukat & Damar, Trek will be lucky to provide a better Cardassian character, ever. Garak and Shran are by far my two favourites.
    asuran14 wrote: »
    I actually think most of all after the events of the tragedy the dominion brought to the Cardassian homeworld, that the Cardassians could have worked as a good race to add to the Romulan republic faction, but not as a stand alone faction like the fed or even KDF.
    Oddly enough, I threw this proposal out there shortly after LoR went live, it was shot down quite a bit back then because it was too convenient.
    gawainviii wrote: »
    I think both @repetitiveepic and @somtaawkhar are right... but are missing a piece of the puzzle. IMO, Cardassians are a very Orwellian society. If they were developed more fully during the Gene-run era, they would have been symbolic of Stalin's Russia. They are cruel and ruthless in the pursuit of their selfless goals.
    I thought the Romulans were supposed to have been based on the Russians?
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Well, I was just putting the finishing touches on Ferenginar, but I guess if Druk is all about Cardassians now, I'll just delete that and start on Cardassia instead. . .
    Or keep Ferenginar, and make Cardassia your next project? :wink:
    According to "The Path to 2409" lore series, which details the events between Nemesis and STO, the Cardassians have;
    -Dismantled most of their warships, with the strict provision that they never form an actual military that can wage war again, though they are able to field a small defense force, and the Federation is obligated by treaty to defend Cardassian space if they are invaded(similar to Japan post WW2)
    Well they've done a shoddy job of that considering how many Galor and Keldon ships have (and are) cropping up all over the place. :tongue:
    According to "The Path to 2409" lore series, which details the events between Nemesis and STO, the Cardassians have;
    -A renewed interest in religion and spirituality
    I never did understand this, at least in the traditional sense. I get the whole faith thing, but for so many intergalactic species to still believe in a God, seems... naïve?
    Post edited by flash525 on
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  • scififan78scififan78 Member Posts: 1,383 Arc User
    For me, a Cardassian micro faction would work something like this:

    Level 1 - 10 You are a member of the Cadassian Defense Fleet. In your rise to captainship, you are spearheading the investigation in the rise of the True Way terrorists. During the investigation, you realize that the reach of the True Way expands beyond Cardassian borders. In fact, you find that there is a fleet of True Way ships in route to a system in the Beta Quadrant (which opens the Devidian arc). You bring this information to the Admiralty and they in turn take it to the Detapa Council. The council reaches out to both the Federation and KDF and both agree to back the investigations. You as the new Gul of the ship must then decide which of the powers will support your investigation.
  • edited September 2016
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  • goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    scififan78 wrote: »
    I don't understand the hatred for the Cardassians. People see that siding with the Dominion is proof of Cardassia's evil intentions. When the truth is that they were forced there. The Klingon Empire ruthlessly and without provocation attacked the Cardassian Union. Yes, the Federation helped but, as soon as the Federation and Empire got into a hot war with each other, Cardassia was pushed to the wayside. The damage done, where else were they to turn to? The Romulan Star Empire?

    Yeah, the Cardassians were sort of the tragic protagonists of the whole show.

    The Cardassians were pawns of the Dominion...as were the Klingons in this case. The Klingons went to war with the Cardassians because they were led to believe, by a shape shifting Founder who had infiltrated them at a high level, that the Cardassians were being led by Dominion shapeshifters...kind of ironic. In the beginning, the entire process was being manipulated by the Dominion. It wasn't the Cardassians who were to blame...it was the Dominion. To the Cardassian's credit, even they saw, over time, that the Dominion never lived up to their promise of helping Cardassia, and, in the end, rose up against their Dominion masters. One other note in favor of Cardassia's character. If you recall, The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar "teamed up" in an effort to wipe out the Founders in one strike which, as we all know, failed. But, initially, their highest intelligence knew that the Dominion was a serious threat. What they knew beyond that, we're kind of left to wonder. We do know that the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar, as far as being a highly sophisticated, intelligence gathering bodies, were very good at what they did...so their efforts should not be so readily dismissed as being "evil."

    It should be remembered that, ultimately, what caused this war was the Founders xenophobic tendencies against all solid-based life forms.

    All that having been said, the prior conflict with Bajor, before the Dominion entered the picture, was all Cardassian in origin. For that campaign, Cardassia has to raise its hand and take the blame.
    klingon-bridge.jpg




  • asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    flash525 wrote: »
    asuran14 wrote: »
    I actually think most of all after the events of the tragedy the dominion brought to the Cardassian homeworld, that the Cardassians could have worked as a good race to add to the Romulan republic faction, but not as a stand alone faction like the fed or even KDF.
    Oddly enough, I threw this proposal out there shortly after LoR went live, it was shot down quite a bit back then because it was too convenient.

    I can understand that in away that it would have been too convenient, but I think now honestly it might be more readily accepted now. As we kinda know that any new faction that is added would be done in a form like the aoy and roms, but also like I said even if the Galor an Keldon were not to be put into the ship yard, it could be done where the romulans got some Cardassian-based ship designs to round out their rooster.
    flash525 wrote: »
    According to "The Path to 2409" lore series, which details the events between Nemesis and STO, the Cardassians have;
    -A renewed interest in religion and spirituality
    I never did understand this, at least in the traditional sense. I get the whole faith thing, but for so many intergalactic species to still believe in a God, seems... naïve?

    Honestly not sure I would say it is naive, but merely a normal course kinda. I mean we have a setting that has the god-like beings that range from the Q, wormhole aliens, the being at the center an edges of the galaxy, alongside the the Iconians, which all could quite easily be seen god-like. The other thing to keep in mind is that the atheistic mindset of the cardassians was something created an enforced by the state, even if it was supposedly done to improve the welfare of all the cardassian people it was still something forced upon the people. I kinda look at it like the how the victorian era had a lot of things/idea being held back, but than when the edwardian period happened those things/ideas were allowed to flourish an people began to explore them from religious to even just social changes.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    goodscotch wrote: »
    scififan78 wrote: »
    I don't understand the hatred for the Cardassians. People see that siding with the Dominion is proof of Cardassia's evil intentions. When the truth is that they were forced there. The Klingon Empire ruthlessly and without provocation attacked the Cardassian Union. Yes, the Federation helped but, as soon as the Federation and Empire got into a hot war with each other, Cardassia was pushed to the wayside. The damage done, where else were they to turn to? The Romulan Star Empire?

    Yeah, the Cardassians were sort of the tragic protagonists of the whole show.

    The Cardassians were pawns of the Dominion...as were the Klingons in this case. The Klingons went to war with the Cardassians because they were led to believe, by a shape shifting Founder who had infiltrated them at a high level, that the Cardassians were being led by Dominion shapeshifters...kind of ironic. In the beginning, the entire process was being manipulated by the Dominion. It wasn't the Cardassians who were to blame...it was the Dominion. To the Cardassian's credit, even they saw, over time, that the Dominion never lived up to their promise of helping Cardassia, and, in the end, rose up against their Dominion masters. One other note in favor of Cardassia's character. If you recall, The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar "teamed up" in an effort to wipe out the Founders in one strike which, as we all know, failed. But, initially, their highest intelligence knew that the Dominion was a serious threat. What they knew beyond that, we're kind of left to wonder. We do know that the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar, as far as being a highly sophisticated, intelligence gathering bodies, were very good at what they did...so their efforts should not be so readily dismissed as being "evil."

    It should be remembered that, ultimately, what caused this war was the Founders xenophobic tendencies against all solid-based life forms.
    Which the Tal'Shiar and Obsidian Order promptly worked hard to confirm by planning an attack on the Founder homeworld. And later Section 31 drove the point home further by creating a deadly disease to infect the Founders.

    None of these so called "Intelligence Agencies" actually achieved its goal, and might actually have made things worse, if it wasn't for the heroes of the story.

    But I think ultimately, the whole Dominion/Cardassian alliance is not something I strongly blame the Cardassians for. It was a complex scenario of machinations of different entities - including the Dominion, but also some Cardassian "leaders", that lead to their alliance witht he Dominion.

    The whole problem the Cardassian had can be traced back to their military and intelligence leadership that wanted to make "Cardassia Great" with violence: Be it the Bajoran Subjugation or the Dominion alliance, they haven't really tried to coexist peacefully. The Cardassian people's only mistake was that they followed their leaders too blindly - and that they did that is part of the virtues they espoused.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    Yeah, most Cardassians were apparently sheeple who did whatever the government told them to do...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    They loved the garment business. :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • goodscotchgoodscotch Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
    Which the Tal'Shiar and Obsidian Order promptly worked hard to confirm by planning an attack on the Founder homeworld. And later Section 31 drove the point home further by creating a deadly disease to infect the Founders.

    Good point. I forgot about that one. Even Section 31 made an attempt to get rid of the Founders and leave the Dominion leaderless. Perhaps my xenophobic adjective is a bit harsh in reference to the very real attempts made to destroy them.
    klingon-bridge.jpg




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