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Some Love For The Torpedo
brian334
Member Posts: 2,219 Arc User
In Star Trek, the single most devastating weapon is the torpedo. Photons, quantums, plasma, whatever: phasers disable, torpedoes destroy.
In STO, torpedos are, at best, a secondary weapon. Even in early game a player must already be a master of torping to make any good use of them. Most of the time they bounce off shields, and the rest of the time the target is dead before the torp gets there.
Don't get me wrong, torpedoes have very high damage potential, and a master of the torp game can rack up kills, but those same players can do far more damage with an AP/Faw build. For the casual player, torps aren't really a viable choice, (other than as a spice in their beam soup.)
Here are some ideas for torpedo specific traits which may help to make torps a real threat again:
Armor Penetrating: The AP torp is designed to defeat Engineering Console armor, (though it has no effect on other forms of kinetic defense.) Armor from Engineering Consoles is completely bypassed with these weapons. Optionally, the weapon could allow a 50% armor bleedthrough as in the case with the current Shield torps.
Drain: These destructible torps leave the tube with 0 damage potential. When they reach the target they orbit it drawing power from its subsystems until it achieves its quota, whereupon it explodes inflicting damage normal for its type. In order to activate this trait the torpedo must be fired as a HY torp, and the HY level determines both how much energy it can drain and its damage when it explodes. Destroying it before it is fully charged results in an explosion scaled to the amount of power it has drained.
EMP: While this trait lowers the damage potential of the weapon, it also creates a HY1 version of the torpedo which, while it lasts, is the highest threat object on the map.
Gravity: These torps do not explode on impact. Instead, they adhere to the target and cause gravitic drag, lowering the target's speed and maneuverability. Multiple torps could eventually drag even a dreadnaught to a stop, but they only have enough power to remain attached for a short time before dropping off. If a ship has ten or more grav torps attached, a Grav Well may form.
Speed: This trait is only available on a Mk X or better Fleet Torpedo purchased from a Fleet Store. It doubles torp flight speed, allowing those torps currently flying into a cloud of mist a chance to actually strike the target before the FAW beamers finish it off.
Subsystem: Enables subsystem targeting attacks with the torpedo. The player must have a Subsystem Targeting power active to enable its 33% chance of a short duration disable to the target. Otherwise the torp gets a regular Phaser proc.
Of course, each of these special torp traits would be exclusive, so you won't get a [Drain][Gravity][Speed] or even a [Speed]x2
In STO, torpedos are, at best, a secondary weapon. Even in early game a player must already be a master of torping to make any good use of them. Most of the time they bounce off shields, and the rest of the time the target is dead before the torp gets there.
Don't get me wrong, torpedoes have very high damage potential, and a master of the torp game can rack up kills, but those same players can do far more damage with an AP/Faw build. For the casual player, torps aren't really a viable choice, (other than as a spice in their beam soup.)
Here are some ideas for torpedo specific traits which may help to make torps a real threat again:
Armor Penetrating: The AP torp is designed to defeat Engineering Console armor, (though it has no effect on other forms of kinetic defense.) Armor from Engineering Consoles is completely bypassed with these weapons. Optionally, the weapon could allow a 50% armor bleedthrough as in the case with the current Shield torps.
Drain: These destructible torps leave the tube with 0 damage potential. When they reach the target they orbit it drawing power from its subsystems until it achieves its quota, whereupon it explodes inflicting damage normal for its type. In order to activate this trait the torpedo must be fired as a HY torp, and the HY level determines both how much energy it can drain and its damage when it explodes. Destroying it before it is fully charged results in an explosion scaled to the amount of power it has drained.
EMP: While this trait lowers the damage potential of the weapon, it also creates a HY1 version of the torpedo which, while it lasts, is the highest threat object on the map.
Gravity: These torps do not explode on impact. Instead, they adhere to the target and cause gravitic drag, lowering the target's speed and maneuverability. Multiple torps could eventually drag even a dreadnaught to a stop, but they only have enough power to remain attached for a short time before dropping off. If a ship has ten or more grav torps attached, a Grav Well may form.
Speed: This trait is only available on a Mk X or better Fleet Torpedo purchased from a Fleet Store. It doubles torp flight speed, allowing those torps currently flying into a cloud of mist a chance to actually strike the target before the FAW beamers finish it off.
Subsystem: Enables subsystem targeting attacks with the torpedo. The player must have a Subsystem Targeting power active to enable its 33% chance of a short duration disable to the target. Otherwise the torp gets a regular Phaser proc.
Of course, each of these special torp traits would be exclusive, so you won't get a [Drain][Gravity][Speed] or even a [Speed]x2
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Destructible torps are devastating when they land. With the speed and damage buff of Torpedo Pre-Fire Sequence trait, they are more manageable when timed right. I've seen damage spikes above 1 Million when I get a HY Grav torp to land on a GW'd mob cluster with my shield pen traits (self-modulating fire and weapons system synergy) active. I'd be wary of buffing them since they may end up being OP.
And no I do not think giving them dedicated ship weapon slots would help them since you are limited by the bridge officer seating of your ship. For people wanting to build canon loadouts, slotting one or two torps won't gimp your ship beyond the point where they are useless in advanced or even elite. I have canon loadout ships (with 1 torp fore and aft) doing above 50k with non epic gear on a non tac and there are now people posting canon loadouts that are doing above 100k so I don't think that is really an issue.
IMO after 2 years of flying torp ships almost exclusively, the main problems reigning them in are:
I probably missed some, but those are the ones that are glaring in my opinion.
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As for making buff torpedo threads part of the FCT list, I'm pretty sure that that's only reserved for threads that are already answered that people keep bringing back up (see: T5/6 Connie), or things that violate the forum rules (flame threads, etc.).
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Another thing I honestly think should be changed is how torpedo spread works, with even maybe high yield working though not sure how I would change HY just yet. At least for torpedo spread I would make it work a bit more like how Beam fire at will works largely, such as that after launching the torp-spread from a torpedo-launcher it would also fire 1-3 additional torpedoes (based on torp-spread rank) from other slotted launchers using a similar torpedo-type as the initial launcher. While also that the other torpedoes launched from the slotted launchers fly towards any targets within their firing arc if the primary target is not within their firing arc. For me this would make slotting more than one torpedo-launcher would benefit torpedo-spread in a more interesting way.
Gravity there is the rep torp that opens grav wells 33% chance per torp warhead. Speed Traits there is a space trait that speeds up detrucatble torpedos and boosts torpedo damage. Also Chroniton Torpedo slows target down. , Don't understand hwat you mean by the emp but there is a spce trait that fires an extra torp of the type you just fired. Armor pentartion already covered in traits you can slot a trait that adds pentration to your torps. So I can only guess you haven't really taken a look at what is there already in the game. Got take a look at what is there already. Torps are pretty good as they are right now. There are bigger fish to fry in the game right now then mess with something thats working fine.
I agree that shields having a flat res vs. torps is one source of the problem. It's a double-edged sword though, because in early game PvE it makes sense and works fine. The problems start in higher leveled PvE and is of course present in PvP (though I only play PvP on low-level toons here and there).
The addtional torpedo is already in the game in the space traits.
Ever take a look at the loadouts in the film and series? The Enterprise in Undiscovered Country had 96 on board. Watch the films and freeze on the image where Scotty is checking the load out after Kronos 1 was fired upon. Voyager had a partial load out of 38 when the series started. And dont get me going on JJ verse with the 2 inch water pipe torpedoes that were fired 8 at a time from many launchers. And given how fast PVE missions are over its kind of a moot point limiting loadouts. And if you are doing the storylines would you want to go all the way back to a base and go through the hassle of docking and procuring torpedos then pick up your game again after all that? I don't Ilike going from one arc to the next without a forced interuption. Oh yes if you up torpedo damge by 3 you are talking one shot instant kills with Neutronics with a tactical build deciated to torp damage. God knows there are enough players whining that PVe is over faster then they can do damage. Plus when Neu's came out there were tons of whiners how they were OPed. That torp is the only one that even close to the ones in the show outside of the C-store Bird of Prey with it's Plasma Torp Console.
Not sure which you mean, since the only two torpedo traits that do something like this would be either torpedo barrage (only affects the high yield torpedo ability not torpedo spread), or load viral torpedo (that is completely different being a disable), but neither of these function exactly how I described. As this would work more like with how having additional cannons an beams do when using cannon-scatter volley or bfaw.
An example of this would be that if you had the enhanced Bio-Molecular photon torpedoe, the Terran Task Force withering Photon Torpedo, and then a normal photon torpedo launcher slotted on your ship. Then you were to launch your torpedo-spread 3 from the normal photon it would fire the normal spread of 5 clusters of four photon torpedoes at the targets, but then would also fire a additional cluster of 2-4 withering an Bio-molecular photon torpedoes towards targets within their own firing arc (or one special torpedo for those launchers that launch such torpedos).
This was almost how Secondary Torpedo Launchers (Terran Task Force 3-pc) would have worked. I thought it was hilariously OP (and my primary ships are torp boats) and Cryptic seemed to think so too and it was fixed/nerfed before it left Tribble.
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Yeah, I'd be fine with finite torpedo-supply too. They could depend on ship-size or type (like SCV would have less in stock than cruisers for example). Recharging could be done with EC and replicator, as well as with bases - some Command Cruiser deployable could do the recharge over time during combat. Making teamwork and utility more important never hurts. I definately support the concept.
Okay than we are on debating what constitutes being a trait or a power, as to me a trait implies that it is slotted into your characters space/ground or ship trait list, while to me those two are powers that are on a cool-down an from a set of gear you have equipped on your ship an are classified differently. I will concede that they do work similar to how I described, but with a more general styled way.
I agree with the initial assassment (I think it was even more than OP, outright bugged might be the word) But quite frankly, their "fix" isn't really all that great either. It goes from OP to practically dead weight.
Playing a lot of Science Torpedo Boats, I totally get t he call for faster torpedoes. But... Would that still look right? Torpedoes in Star Trek are usually flying slower, and I think Cryptic managed to capture that correctly.
I am afraid they need to focus more on lowering DPS from other sources, or increasing enemy hit points more, so that no matter how many BFAW spammers melt enemies, the melting takes long enough for a torpedo spread or heavy torpedo to find its target.
though regarding heavy torpedoes - I think they need to rework the entire concept. Make them non-destructible, but lower their range or give them a damage drop off. In Balance of Terror, the Enterprise does not destroy the Romulan Plasma Torpedo heading for them (they don't even try) - they get enough distance so its destructive power drops to survivable levels.
I think we are way past "looking right" the moment ships started flying like fighter planes and players flying multiple alien ships under the Fed, KDF or Romulan banner.
I am against finite torps in this game especially if you make that supply based on the ship type because it only rewards players to fly more cruisers (in a game which is fast turning into cruisers online) and it is detrimental to build diversity (forcing more people into the FAW meta or energy weapons builds).
Edit: In case you bring up the shows having "finite" torp stocks, the ships in the shows also had a finite resource for energy weapons fire as well as a finite and depletable energy source for everything else in the ship.
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What do you all think of having the torpedo/kinetic damage reduction or resistance of shields being based either on the remaining amount of hp of the shield, or the ship's shied power level? Like that at full hp it would reduce the torpedo's damage by 75% yet at 10% it would only reduce the damage the damage by 5%. Or that the damage resistance/reduction of a shield is based around the amount of power you have allocated into the shield power-level, which could make power draining abit better if more things were linked back to power levels amounts, and would make sense as if you have 50 shield power your shields would/should not block torpedo damage like a shield with 125 power allocated to it.
There really is no point in making a weapons system that is already lagging when compared to other weapon systems in the game, finite. That would be a nerf on a system that's already behind the times. It just won't make sense in my opinion.
Yes that's something me and a lot of other torp users have been asking for a while now. That alone and a torpedo speed buff would be a huge improvement for kinetics. I also think that shield bleedthrough should be increased as shields get depleted in general (for all weapons).
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This simple change would give torps a chance as finishing moves and it would also make things like shield stripping and tetryon builds useful. At present the only way to solve the problem with shields when attacking is to totally remove them from a target, but with some npcs having high regen rates even those 1% slivers ruin your torp attacks. At least with a dynamic resistance you could be effective by knocking off part of a shield facing.
@e30ernest hit most of the issues that plague torpedoes today, aside from torpedo traits not working on the heavy/pet torps that are fired via HYx (gravimetric, TDD, TriC, etc). Fixing the bugs would go a long way to improving the quality of life for torpedo users.
Flight speed (and no, Torpedo Pre-Fire Sequence does NOT address this) is a major issue that does need to be dealt with, as well as the "only one torp fired at any one time" rule. To be clear, TS/HY/TranspWarhead will only affect ONE torp, but all other launchers can fire their standard round like energy weapons do for each array/bank/cannon.
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Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Do all torps need to be faster? Well, not necessarily. However, for players constantly frustrated by holding back until a shield drops only to have the ship vaporize before his torps arrive, the ability to acquire faster torps might seem a godsend. Similarly, a player constantly spraying TS at a pack of foes is going to be the focus of their attention. Even if someone else is doing more damage to a single ship, the guy who hits the most ships will draw the most fire. Add a Gravity Well to the mix and you have the entire team of bad guys chasing that one ship and ignoring the rest of the crowd. An EMP, (ElectroMagnetic Pulse) torpedo could help that player by drawing fire away from him.
I posted my ideas as traits for torps which are otherwise already in game, but I'm not opposed to several of the ideas presented here by others. The idea involving scaling resistance based off of shield HP and/or power levels is one such example. I'm sure there are many other excellent ideas; however, my original post was intended to be a relatively easy correction to the power creep issue which does not require going back and rebuilding the combat engine. My intent was to keep the solution simple so as to avoid creating a host of new problems.
SIGNED
Torp speed has always been a funny one I think. You couldn't really gave torps whizzing round at ridiculous speeds as it would look s little odd. But at the same time they do go slower than anything else so against a group of BFAW cruisers you're at a disadvantage right away.
However even calculating their damage instantly would be odd as what's going to happen when the target gets hit by a massive energy attack before the torp "hits" but the user of that torp has already registered a kill? Would the energy attack not count for anything? Would the target have some sort of overflow hitpoints to absorb more damage?
CSV already deals instant damage despite the "bolts" not reaching their targets yet. So I do not think this is going to be an issue. Besides, energy attacks (beams) are instant. So a torp hit would just behave like an energy hit (like in the case of two FAW boats simultaneously hitting a target).
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"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."