Oh I can agree I would rather have unique reward drops from specific ques, but yet there kinda is a need to have some compromise in it for the different types of players. The reason i think making it that specific ques give unique marks that are used for unique projects to get a set of gear would give players a reason to play more varied content, while also giving some amount uniqueness gained from doing different content.
Other reasons are the more experience players don't want to play with a bunch of "n00bs" because they don't want their perfect guaranteed runs to be imperfect and less than guaranteed. They have slammed the door to anyone who wants to embrace challenge and made the others pay for missing even one optional. When on a "failed" run (so much as missing one optional) suicide is demanded by the DPSorGTFO crowd, I can no longer have any respect for them at all.
And of course another reason is that they must have been successful in driving out those who want to try out builds, embrace challenge, expand themselves etc, and yes of course the occaisional person who doesn't know what s/he is doing.
The queues can only suffer because too many people want to be complete a$$#oles.
I really, really, really hope you don’t believe yourself what you write here. I count quite a few top of the line DPSers in this game among my friends. I can quiet assure you that most of them like to pug and use the queues regularly to test one’s own abilities, to experiment and keep the very claustrophobic contend we have entertaining.
Many of them are even passionate pugger I meet in queues by coinsidence and on occasion we have even queued up together. Most of the DPSer I know, especially from the Metal league, are extremely easy and cool guys to be around with and which have managed to keep an open mind to new and fresh approaches to the same contend all the way. They encourage peeps wherever they can.
I could imagine that your experience originates form some of the peeps of the lower DPS standings as they more or less need the surrounding of teammates equally good to play undisturbed. And yea of course you may have black sheep on occasion but that you have everywhere and should not lead to generalization.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Why would you play a Massively multi player game if you want to play by yourself in a single player experience?
Because it's the only current Star Trek game out here.
It's not my fault it's an MMO, believe me I would change that if I could.
Game companies prefer multiplayer as then they don't have to write AI code.
I'm not saying get rid of all the MP content for all you friendly people out there, just add a SOLO option to each Que to scoop up all us SOLO players out here.
SWTOR dropped in a bunch of previously raid only missions that are now SOLOable.
Light at the end of the tunnel and the Monolith is rising, pay attention Cryptic.
Ahh so the lack of a star trek single player games, which do exist actually, means that the multi-player experience in a mmo for the players actually playing the mmo for that very experience should be sacrificed? Wow selfish much. An swtor is more of a single player game than most out there with a huge focus on the player story an experience than on an actual mmo style focusing on the player story. There is more than enough solo content for those seeking to play single player in the game, stfs should remain the domain of groups of players, the story missions being largely single player, and then the rest being doable as both solo or in groups. AN no it is not your fault it is an mmo, but it is your fault for thinking your wish to have it being solo oriented in a game type that is about playing in a world with many other players that is what makes it a MMO should be sacrificed for your desires.
Also just because ques are played abit more yet in a solo manner is not a sign of it working or fixing it, but showing that players just now have no need to group with other players, and turning group content in weaker experiences. If you want to improve content made for groups of players to play thru, you don't reduce it to being solo-able as that invalidates it as being group content.
Simple? bwwhahaaahaaa!!!! Okay some of them are. But you go fight Gravitar and then tell me you'd expect random PUGs to live....
Actually part of why queues are still active in CO is the way the rewards work. Some of them reward marks, but the real prizes are often random drops. For example, Gravitar's costume parts.... But also they often reward the equivalent of EC.
Oh, I'm referring to the more basic queues: smash/grab/bursts and the weekly-rotating custom alerts. Queued content such as Gravitar or TA are more on par with the elite queues here.
Anyway, while I hope we never, ever see the particular rewards found in smash or grab alerts in STO, they're still good examples of queues that people want to do because the rewards are good. Bursts have TRIBBLE rewards, but people still do them because of the daily. Never underestimate the motivational power of a daily quest with good rewards.
I'm not sure if random-drop unlocks are a good idea for STO though, as I know a lot of players hate such things. Remember how maco/omega/khg gear was originally acquired? Lucky RNG drops at the end of infected/cure/khitomer. Nobody liked that. Still, next time the team makes a new batch of lockbox or rep weapons for whatever the current content is, maybe they could turn around and make one more batch of weapons to exclusively exist as rare drops in queued content. While crafted gear is generally "the best," prices on the exchange suggest that there's still demand for the various lockbox-only weapons--vaadwaur polarons, elachi crescent cannons, etc.
An interesting idea to make PUGing more rewarding (except for the lobi, don't expect that too happen). But it shouldn't be necessary.
It's all about quantity, really. If the droprate is such that someone running queued content for the daily every day only averages about 2 lobi a month, it would take them over 8 years to get a 900-lobi ship, almost 2 years to get a lobi space weapon or ground suit, or a bit less than half a year to get a lobi ground weapon. This is hardly going to devalue lobi--if anything, it may kindle interest and motivate people to pick up some lockbox keys.
"I've got 20 lobi and there's a lobi shop sale going on! If I buy a few keys now, I can finally get that herald stick without waiting 3 more months!"
Remember how maco/omega/khg gear was originally acquired? Lucky RNG drops at the end of infected/cure/khitomer. Nobody liked that.
Untrue. A fair number of us actually DID like it, at least compared to the system where you have to pay for everything. I, for one, consider paying for anything to instantly destroy all satisfaction that could possibly be gained from having it, replacing it with only a dirty, skeevy feeling of defeat. If I could just hammer queues to get the goods and never have to dirty myself with PAYING for things, I would.
I like the old system better. There was a rumor going on about the old system favoring the higher DPS ppl (for the tech drops), but it was otherwise an okay system.
I agree I liked the older system, yet I think a system that uses both having gear you can get via marks you get from the ques, than having random drops from the que, and even some random drops like unique marks/materials that you can use to craft or complete unique projects would give a good degree of choice to all concerned. As you still can get well geared while getting the marks for projects, than if you get a nice drop either a random one or a special mark/mat would give you that feel of getting somethign good. Though I could also see it that a system of giving players a chance at a unique drop/mat/mark set for completing stfs with all optionals intact could work too, since it would actually push players to work towards learning the content better to finish them to get access to these things. Its about incentives and not bowing to what people think is best, and going with what is best, as many times what player say they want actually is worse than what they have at the moment.
@aesica targ and I just finished saying we liked the old drop system so your assertion that no one liked it is false.
Okay, so "nobody liked it" might've been a bit bold. Oops.
I remember that system being really frustrating in terms of piecing the whole set together--you could run cure your first time and get the piece you wanted, or run it for a month and still be left empty-handed. I really like how the rep system replaces that dice toss with dedication.
Still, I actually wouldn't be opposed to some random drops--I outlined a way I think they could actually be well-received. This, combined with the current rep progression system would make sure everyone gets what they like--the thrill of random luck but also, stability. Just as long as the random drops were awarded to everyone equally, with no favoritism toward the highest dpsers. (The exception of course is the afkers shouldn't get squat, but they don't count)
@aesica I keep hearing about these people that couldn't get the piece of the set they needed, but I managed to collect 5 or 6 sets myself. Maybe I was just extremely lucky?
@aesica targ and I just finished saying we liked the old drop system so your assertion that no one liked it is false.
Okay, so "nobody liked it" might've been a bit bold. Oops.
I remember that system being really frustrating in terms of piecing the whole set together--you could run cure your first time and get the piece you wanted, or run it for a month and still be left empty-handed. I really like how the rep system replaces that dice toss with dedication.
Still, I actually wouldn't be opposed to some random drops--I outlined a way I think they could actually be well-received. This, combined with the current rep progression system would make sure everyone gets what they like--the thrill of random luck but also, stability. Just as long as the random drops were awarded to everyone equally, with no favoritism toward the highest dpsers. (The exception of course is the afkers shouldn't get squat, but they don't count)
@aesica I keep hearing about these people that couldn't get the piece of the set they needed, but I managed to collect 5 or 6 sets myself. Maybe I was just extremely lucky?
Yes.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
@aesica I keep hearing about these people that couldn't get the piece of the set they needed, but I managed to collect 5 or 6 sets myself. Maybe I was just extremely lucky?
That's the thing with chance. Yes, some people are lucky and some are unlucky. Usually though this is somewhat compensated by the ability to trade certain stuff and STO really blows in that regard. Character bind on equip or account bind in so many instances doesn't make it easier. But she is right that some people could never get a drop and had to try over and over, but that's the thrill of the system. If the process of doing so however is no fun then we have a problem.
@aesica : I suggested something like this in the begin of the thread. Keep the Mk XII rep store, but some rare drops for MK XIII or Mk XIV elite and veteran sets, each queue with a unique piece, would in my opinion greatly help to revitalize the queues and add something to strive for again.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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The trouble with even unique queue rewards is that they need to have some degree of persistence, because you don't want players grinding like hell through a queue to unlock a fancy costume and then never touching it again one they earn it. That just ends up the same as we have now where people stop playing queues once they max a reputation and have the gear.
Something like regular spec point and tech upgrade rewards, or maybe single use boosts like you get from fleets. That keeps people playing as there is not a situation where you gotta catch em all and move on, it keeps you running rewarding queues.
To spice it up randomise the rewards for different queues. One week Colony Invasion give spec points, next week they are from R'hllor station etc.
It's kind of interesting. I only pug and I think most of the reason is hoping for a 'bad' group. Trying to support the 'bad' group is my fun in the game.
I kinda feel the same, except during the times when I or someone else in the PUG team gets bad-mouthed by someone who thinks too highly of himself.
I still PUG a lot though especially with my Engineer.
People need to stop spreading the fallacy of needing upgraded stuff to play queues though. I think that's one contributing factor to the low queue population. When I first started, I avoided queues because I kept reading that you needed good gear to run them. Now I know for a fact that it's perfectly feasible to fly with nothing but mission drops and be contributing positively to a team or even be competitive.
I think ISA and CCA are very popular for a number of reasons:
They are both rather quick STFs with a good team.
Both offer continuous action, with no lull in combat.
Both are straightforward and very easy with their objectives.
It's easy to start running them with basic gear and still do well.
ISA is made even more popular due to the DPS League. People know that this is the standard for measuring performance. Most (if not all) of the people I know that play ISA play this map for this sole reason (and not the rewards).
CCA has a good set of rewards, particularly if you land in the top 2, which is also very easy to do.
Both are popular enough that if all you have time for is a quick run, they pop very quickly when you queue up (others have a waiting time).
CCA is also a map covered in the DPS-League tables. I'll admit I used to chase numbers there too to get a good ranking.
I think the DPS League has a very strong influence on a map's popularity. With the recent fix to NPC mobs, Hive Elite is now easier and more accessible to groups lacking dedicated tanks. This is also one of the maps where there is a DPS table. Now that it's easier to just form a random group in the channel, more people are calling out for HSE runs.
I think adding a competitive aspect to all the queues would add a bit more interest to them. Add (good) random drops for top 3 finishers to all the queues as well as higher pay-offs and you'll see more players going into them. Maybe even add higher mark rewards (especially Fleet Marks) for top 3 finishers in a queue. The top 3 can be determined the way CCA does it (mix of healing and DPS).
Something needs to be done about bad PUG groups too. Like it or not, some people join PUGs to be carried, and some people avoid PUGs because they don't want to carry a team. I think adding requirements such as completing the normal version of a queue x number of times with all objectives completed before being able to run the advanced version should be added. To help newbies in need of elite marks, add elite marks to Normal then double the elite mark rewards in Advanced. Failing an optional in Advanced will only reward you 1 Elite mark.
Would be nice to add a sink for Elite marks as well to keep players coming back after they've completed their rep projects. Maybe donate 1000 elite marks (arbitrary number) and receive Refined Dilithium. Or a mark exchange where you can exchange Elite marks for other marks (like fleet marks) or special rep projects that give you other rewards for Elite marks (like character-bound Omega Tech Upgrades).
Another option is to make a special ship upgrade project that will require you to use X number of Elite Marks, regular marks, Fleet marks and Dilithium to add a console slot to your ship, or upgrade one BOff seat into a hybrid specialization of your choice.
Simple? bwwhahaaahaaa!!!! Okay some of them are. But you go fight Gravitar and then tell me you'd expect random PUGs to live....
Actually part of why queues are still active in CO is the way the rewards work. Some of them reward marks, but the real prizes are often random drops. For example, Gravitar's costume parts.... But also they often reward the equivalent of EC.
Oh, I'm referring to the more basic queues: smash/grab/bursts and the weekly-rotating custom alerts. Queued content such as Gravitar or TA are more on par with the elite queues here.
Anyway, while I hope we never, ever see the particular rewards found in smash or grab alerts in STO, they're still good examples of queues that people want to do because the rewards are good. Bursts have TRIBBLE rewards, but people still do them because of the daily. Never underestimate the motivational power of a daily quest with good rewards.
I'm not sure if random-drop unlocks are a good idea for STO though, as I know a lot of players hate such things. Remember how maco/omega/khg gear was originally acquired? Lucky RNG drops at the end of infected/cure/khitomer. Nobody liked that. Still, next time the team makes a new batch of lockbox or rep weapons for whatever the current content is, maybe they could turn around and make one more batch of weapons to exclusively exist as rare drops in queued content. While crafted gear is generally "the best," prices on the exchange suggest that there's still demand for the various lockbox-only weapons--vaadwaur polarons, elachi crescent cannons, etc.
Honestly if such a system was to be re-implemented, I think it'd work better if the tech drops were tradable. That was the biggest issue with the old one. you could get 6 of one thing 0 of the other and there was nothing you could do about it other than GRIND MOAR!!!!
But that's the point of a hack&slay MMO! Play the content in search for the rare drop. Thr process of doing so should be fun and compelling, having a good time with other players in the team. For that very reason I started a new Diablo II character two days ago. RNG and luck are integral parts of playing a game.
Ranting about "time wasted" because one didn't get a drop while playing a video game is pointless. You are playing a game. You don't get benefit of "investing" time in it other than having fun. And to me at least grinding currency and buying my items in a store is not fun, that's what I do for a living.
totally, i think that currency and commodities are a great side dish for completing end game content, but as far as playing this type of game goes, i would much prefer the chance of having that thing i'm after drop, rather than just the thought of having to earn at a repetitive job so i can finally afford to buy it.
cryptic are the epitome of corporate thinking.. they knew that 'chance' was a very important requirement in any mmo, so they monetised it directly with lock boxes, and have then continually looked at ways to monetise any other 'chance' in game. this is both ruthlessly clever, and very saddening, but then, i'm aged and idealistic, and quite possibly out of touch with modern levels of money over design or cash over content, maybe cryptic just happens to be my only exposure to something more endemic within developer culture.
Remember how maco/omega/khg gear was originally acquired? Lucky RNG drops at the end of infected/cure/khitomer. Nobody liked that.
Untrue. A fair number of us actually DID like it, at least compared to the system where you have to pay for everything. I, for one, consider paying for anything to instantly destroy all satisfaction that could possibly be gained from having it, replacing it with only a dirty, skeevy feeling of defeat. If I could just hammer queues to get the goods and never have to dirty myself with PAYING for things, I would.
I got so many MACO shields and Borg engine/Deflectors like that back in the day. The old tech drops were more generous with me than with other people, it seemed.
Comments
I really, really, really hope you don’t believe yourself what you write here. I count quite a few top of the line DPSers in this game among my friends. I can quiet assure you that most of them like to pug and use the queues regularly to test one’s own abilities, to experiment and keep the very claustrophobic contend we have entertaining.
Many of them are even passionate pugger I meet in queues by coinsidence and on occasion we have even queued up together. Most of the DPSer I know, especially from the Metal league, are extremely easy and cool guys to be around with and which have managed to keep an open mind to new and fresh approaches to the same contend all the way. They encourage peeps wherever they can.
I could imagine that your experience originates form some of the peeps of the lower DPS standings as they more or less need the surrounding of teammates equally good to play undisturbed. And yea of course you may have black sheep on occasion but that you have everywhere and should not lead to generalization.
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They worked for SWTOR.
Because it's the only current Star Trek game out here.
It's not my fault it's an MMO, believe me I would change that if I could.
Game companies prefer multiplayer as then they don't have to write AI code.
I'm not saying get rid of all the MP content for all you friendly people out there, just add a SOLO option to each Que to scoop up all us SOLO players out here.
SWTOR dropped in a bunch of previously raid only missions that are now SOLOable.
Light at the end of the tunnel and the Monolith is rising, pay attention Cryptic.
The secret is to bang the rocks together.
Ahh so the lack of a star trek single player games, which do exist actually, means that the multi-player experience in a mmo for the players actually playing the mmo for that very experience should be sacrificed? Wow selfish much. An swtor is more of a single player game than most out there with a huge focus on the player story an experience than on an actual mmo style focusing on the player story. There is more than enough solo content for those seeking to play single player in the game, stfs should remain the domain of groups of players, the story missions being largely single player, and then the rest being doable as both solo or in groups. AN no it is not your fault it is an mmo, but it is your fault for thinking your wish to have it being solo oriented in a game type that is about playing in a world with many other players that is what makes it a MMO should be sacrificed for your desires.
Also just because ques are played abit more yet in a solo manner is not a sign of it working or fixing it, but showing that players just now have no need to group with other players, and turning group content in weaker experiences. If you want to improve content made for groups of players to play thru, you don't reduce it to being solo-able as that invalidates it as being group content.
Anyway, while I hope we never, ever see the particular rewards found in smash or grab alerts in STO, they're still good examples of queues that people want to do because the rewards are good. Bursts have TRIBBLE rewards, but people still do them because of the daily. Never underestimate the motivational power of a daily quest with good rewards.
I'm not sure if random-drop unlocks are a good idea for STO though, as I know a lot of players hate such things. Remember how maco/omega/khg gear was originally acquired? Lucky RNG drops at the end of infected/cure/khitomer. Nobody liked that. Still, next time the team makes a new batch of lockbox or rep weapons for whatever the current content is, maybe they could turn around and make one more batch of weapons to exclusively exist as rare drops in queued content. While crafted gear is generally "the best," prices on the exchange suggest that there's still demand for the various lockbox-only weapons--vaadwaur polarons, elachi crescent cannons, etc.
It's all about quantity, really. If the droprate is such that someone running queued content for the daily every day only averages about 2 lobi a month, it would take them over 8 years to get a 900-lobi ship, almost 2 years to get a lobi space weapon or ground suit, or a bit less than half a year to get a lobi ground weapon. This is hardly going to devalue lobi--if anything, it may kindle interest and motivate people to pick up some lockbox keys.
"I've got 20 lobi and there's a lobi shop sale going on! If I buy a few keys now, I can finally get that herald stick without waiting 3 more months!"
I like the old system better. There was a rumor going on about the old system favoring the higher DPS ppl (for the tech drops), but it was otherwise an okay system.
I remember that system being really frustrating in terms of piecing the whole set together--you could run cure your first time and get the piece you wanted, or run it for a month and still be left empty-handed. I really like how the rep system replaces that dice toss with dedication.
Still, I actually wouldn't be opposed to some random drops--I outlined a way I think they could actually be well-received. This, combined with the current rep progression system would make sure everyone gets what they like--the thrill of random luck but also, stability. Just as long as the random drops were awarded to everyone equally, with no favoritism toward the highest dpsers. (The exception of course is the afkers shouldn't get squat, but they don't count)
Sounds like a good idea.
Yes.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
That's the thing with chance. Yes, some people are lucky and some are unlucky. Usually though this is somewhat compensated by the ability to trade certain stuff and STO really blows in that regard. Character bind on equip or account bind in so many instances doesn't make it easier. But she is right that some people could never get a drop and had to try over and over, but that's the thrill of the system. If the process of doing so however is no fun then we have a problem.
@aesica : I suggested something like this in the begin of the thread. Keep the Mk XII rep store, but some rare drops for MK XIII or Mk XIV elite and veteran sets, each queue with a unique piece, would in my opinion greatly help to revitalize the queues and add something to strive for again.
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Video Killed the Radio Star, actually.
Personally, all I think about when I see the title is "Who Shot J.R.?"
That just ends up the same as we have now where people stop playing queues once they max a reputation and have the gear.
Something like regular spec point and tech upgrade rewards, or maybe single use boosts like you get from fleets. That keeps people playing as there is not a situation where you gotta catch em all and move on, it keeps you running rewarding queues.
To spice it up randomise the rewards for different queues. One week Colony Invasion give spec points, next week they are from R'hllor station etc.
I kinda feel the same, except during the times when I or someone else in the PUG team gets bad-mouthed by someone who thinks too highly of himself.
I still PUG a lot though especially with my Engineer.
People need to stop spreading the fallacy of needing upgraded stuff to play queues though. I think that's one contributing factor to the low queue population. When I first started, I avoided queues because I kept reading that you needed good gear to run them. Now I know for a fact that it's perfectly feasible to fly with nothing but mission drops and be contributing positively to a team or even be competitive.
I think ISA and CCA are very popular for a number of reasons:
I think the DPS League has a very strong influence on a map's popularity. With the recent fix to NPC mobs, Hive Elite is now easier and more accessible to groups lacking dedicated tanks. This is also one of the maps where there is a DPS table. Now that it's easier to just form a random group in the channel, more people are calling out for HSE runs.
I think adding a competitive aspect to all the queues would add a bit more interest to them. Add (good) random drops for top 3 finishers to all the queues as well as higher pay-offs and you'll see more players going into them. Maybe even add higher mark rewards (especially Fleet Marks) for top 3 finishers in a queue. The top 3 can be determined the way CCA does it (mix of healing and DPS).
Something needs to be done about bad PUG groups too. Like it or not, some people join PUGs to be carried, and some people avoid PUGs because they don't want to carry a team. I think adding requirements such as completing the normal version of a queue x number of times with all objectives completed before being able to run the advanced version should be added. To help newbies in need of elite marks, add elite marks to Normal then double the elite mark rewards in Advanced. Failing an optional in Advanced will only reward you 1 Elite mark.
Would be nice to add a sink for Elite marks as well to keep players coming back after they've completed their rep projects. Maybe donate 1000 elite marks (arbitrary number) and receive Refined Dilithium. Or a mark exchange where you can exchange Elite marks for other marks (like fleet marks) or special rep projects that give you other rewards for Elite marks (like character-bound Omega Tech Upgrades).
Another option is to make a special ship upgrade project that will require you to use X number of Elite Marks, regular marks, Fleet marks and Dilithium to add a console slot to your ship, or upgrade one BOff seat into a hybrid specialization of your choice.
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Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
My character Tsin'xing
More people than you think.
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No, I'm one of the lazier ones. I've never had over 15.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Took me 2 years to get almost 2k though
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As the main problem with multi-player content is other players I must disagree with your opinion.
totally, i think that currency and commodities are a great side dish for completing end game content, but as far as playing this type of game goes, i would much prefer the chance of having that thing i'm after drop, rather than just the thought of having to earn at a repetitive job so i can finally afford to buy it.
cryptic are the epitome of corporate thinking.. they knew that 'chance' was a very important requirement in any mmo, so they monetised it directly with lock boxes, and have then continually looked at ways to monetise any other 'chance' in game. this is both ruthlessly clever, and very saddening, but then, i'm aged and idealistic, and quite possibly out of touch with modern levels of money over design or cash over content, maybe cryptic just happens to be my only exposure to something more endemic within developer culture.
I got so many MACO shields and Borg engine/Deflectors like that back in the day. The old tech drops were more generous with me than with other people, it seemed.
Haha, yes, you're right.