Enterprise-E confusion

stormwraith01

So, I've heard of two STO possible continuities for the E. In one, the E goes missing, never to be heard from again. In another, it was destroyed in 2408 by Undime but most crew members survived. Any idea on which it is and why the confusion?

deaftravis05

In STO timeline, it was destroyed in 2408

starswordc

The Enterprise-E being destroyed by Undine was in the Star Trek Magazine short stories written by Kestral ("Unexpected Honor" specifically). Unfortunately very little of those stories are actually referred to in-game, especially since Cryptic started retconning the game's myth arc to be about the Iconians instead of the Undine.

EDIT: Corrected.

leviathan99

All that was said in the article was that it was "lost" in fluidic space and the crew returned without it, after which Captain Data retired and took a university professor post.

It has been my understanding that CBS likes characters ending up where they were in the various alternate futures and also asks Cryptic to be vague on fates of major characters or ships that are not reversible.

So a major canon ship may be referred to as "lost" they can't confirm it was destroyed. Characters may be presumed dead but there can't be a body, for the most part. The novels operate under similar restrictions as I understand it and they're expected to have a reset button for any major character that's killed, which is why Janeway died and eventually came back in the novels.

It takes special permission to do anything too permanent. You can show a successor ship, for example, but I think they'd rather you keep it open what happened to the old ship. You can kill canon characters but CBS would prefer the body never be found or that you have a built in reset button to get them back to where we last saw them in canon. You have an easier road following one of the established alternate futures from the episodes.

hawku001x

Huh. That's true, the story never did say destroyed. I never noticed it said destroyed on the MB article. I will fix it.

I have the story. Here's the passage for ref:

"A new Enterprise needs a new Captain."

"You don't think that anyone blames you for the incident during the E's last mission?" Shon asked. "No one does. You completed an impossible task and brought your crew home."

Data paused. "What happened in fluidic space was regrettable, but necessary. The mission turned the tide with the Undine. We stopped a war."

"And saved millions," Shon said.

starswordc

hawku001x wrote: »

Huh. That's true, the story never did say destroyed. I never noticed it said destroyed on the MB article. I will fix it.

I have the story. Here's the passage for ref:

"A new Enterprise needs a new Captain."

"You don't think that anyone blames you for the incident during the E's last mission?" Shon asked. "No one does. You completed an impossible task and brought your crew home."

Data paused. "What happened in fluidic space was regrettable, but necessary. The mission turned the tide with the Undine. We stopped a war."

"And saved millions," Shon said.

Yeah, see, there's the problem. That passage was written around the time "The 2800" released IIRC, and it seems to have been jossed by the events of the Dyson arc: whatever happened in fluidic space, it didn't stop the Undine conflict.

bluedarky

starswordc wrote: »

hawku001x wrote: »

Huh. That's true, the story never did say destroyed. I never noticed it said destroyed on the MB article. I will fix it.

I have the story. Here's the passage for ref:

"A new Enterprise needs a new Captain."

"You don't think that anyone blames you for the incident during the E's last mission?" Shon asked. "No one does. You completed an impossible task and brought your crew home."

Data paused. "What happened in fluidic space was regrettable, but necessary. The mission turned the tide with the Undine. We stopped a war."

"And saved millions," Shon said.

Yeah, see, there's the problem. That passage was written around the time "The 2800" released IIRC, and it seems to have been jossed by the events of the Dyson arc: whatever happened in fluidic space, it didn't stop the Undine conflict.

It did however quite possibly stop it from being worse than it was.

kodachikuno

so.... sto just ignores Data's death in nemesis... why couldn't it ignore the Scimitard instead

kamiyama317

kodachikuno wrote: »

so.... sto just ignores Data's death in insurrection... why couldn't it ignore the Scimitard instead

Data only briefly "dies" in insurrection. After Worf deactivates him, they take him back to the Enterprise where Geordi fixes his positronic brain and reactivates him. He survives the rest of the movie from that point.

djxprime

kodachikuno wrote: »

so.... sto just ignores Data's death in insurrection... why couldn't it ignore the Scimitard instead

Technically, that wasn't ignored. Data came back through B4 according to the Path to 2409 lore and in the comic tie-in to the first JJ-verse movie "Countdown." It was shown that he could come back at the end of Star Trek: Nemesis where some of Data's personality started to show through B4, if anyone decided to do more movies in the TNG era after that.

hawku001x

^^ Yep. And Geordi deals with his issues of bringing back Data that way in Needs of the Many.

kodachikuno

thats....beyond stupid... so it fits cryptic perfectly.... and given ENT... I guess it fits CBS too...

starswordc

They foreshadowed it in Nemesis. Cryptic and, separately, the novelverse, just drew the logical conclusion from B-4 suddenly singing the song Data sung at Troi and Riker's wedding reception at the start of the movie.

This despite Brent Spiner trying to get them to kill off his character for good, understand.

kodachikuno

starswordc wrote: »

They foreshadowed it in Nemesis. Cryptic and, separately, the novelverse, just drew the logical conclusion from B-4 suddenly singing the song Data sung at Troi and Riker's wedding reception at the start of the movie.

This despite Brent Spiner trying to get them to kill off his character for good, understand.

yes its perfectly logical to expect a physically inferior and more primitive piece of hardware that LaForge even said might not be able to hold all of Data's memory engrams to sprout Data mk2 -.-
As for the novel-verse.. its fun to visit but it aint canon

hawku001x

I always figured, since Brent Spiner co-story'd Nemesis, it was his plan to return in the next Trek movie The Search for Data.

In the STO book, it was B-4

sacrificing himself for the greater good because the Federation needed Data, thus showing that he'd finally evolved on his own.

Data comes back in the Destiny timeline books too, but in a new body.

kodachikuno

the book makes more sense then

edit:
which is normal for trek movie novels

starswordc

kodachikuno wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

They foreshadowed it in Nemesis. Cryptic and, separately, the novelverse, just drew the logical conclusion from B-4 suddenly singing the song Data sung at Troi and Riker's wedding reception at the start of the movie.

This despite Brent Spiner trying to get them to kill off his character for good, understand.

yes its perfectly logical to expect a physically inferior and more primitive piece of hardware that LaForge even said might not be able to hold all of Data's memory engrams to sprout Data mk2 -.-
As for the novel-verse.. its fun to visit but it aint canon

Hey, nobody ever called Nemesis a masterpiece of plotting.

leviathan99

kodachikuno wrote: »

thats....beyond stupid... so it fits cryptic perfectly.... and given ENT... I guess it fits CBS too...

It was also supposedly what they had planned for another TNG movie (with a twist or two) so my understanding was that Data's death was always intended to be potentially temporary. Nemesis just didn't do well enough to launch another movie.

The main point of Nemesis -- I THINK -- from the studio's perspective was to write out the characters that were being underutilized in the movies, replace them with cheaper actors. And Brent Spiner cooked up the whole "Data dying" thing with his friend John Logan as a two movie story that would have written out the need for Spiner to wear all that age defying makeup. We never got to see the intended second part. It was sort of an accident that it became seen as a "real" death.

leviathan99

Here's one where Spiner kind of confirms it publicly. He at least indicates that he believes the next movie would have been Data's return:

http://www.thegeektwins.com/2014/02/brent-spiner-on-datas-fate-in-star-trek.html#.VhnD0d9Viko

The rumor I had heard, like I say, was that they only wrote the death because they had the return story in mind and it was all just to give Data an aged human appearance because Spiner was actually having to go through more makeup than Michael Dorn just to hide his aging.

farmallm

In 2408 the Enterprise investigated the loss of contact with Starbase 236. During this mission, the Enterprise was destroyed by Undine forces. Though the ship itself was lost, most of the crew, including Captain Data, survived. (Unexpected Honor)

It seemed they added to the history going by STO Lore. Last time I looked, it just had it MIA during the Starbase 236 mission. STO lore has always been kinda hit/miss even with the books. Some they listed as events some they don't. This is one reason why I don't read Star Trek books. As they really don't make sense and don't add up.

As for after the movie. This can be found on Memory Alpha.
A cut scene from the script for Star Trek Nemesis revealed that it was the starship USS Hemingway that towed the critically damaged Enterprise to Earth.
According to the Star Trek Nemesis script and a deleted scene, the Enterprise was to explore the Denab system following her refit. In this scene you can also see Commander Martin Madden, the new executive officer, his awkward first encounter with Picard (having, as a joke, been given laughably inaccurate advice by Riker) and a new captain's chair with something most Star Trek bridges have lacked: a seatbelt.

Scenes cut from the theatrical release of Star Trek Nemesis (but included in the 2003 and 2005 DVD releases) state that Commander Martin Madden took over for Riker as first officer and that Beverly Crusher left the ship to head up Starfleet Medical. Early versions of the script made reference to an Andorian ops officer. The new counselor was female, according to dialog. Novels set after Nemesis have ignored these deleted scenes and several new characters were created by the authors.

Also found this:
In the hopes of producing more voyages of the Enterprise-E, John Eaves sketched up a final refit of the Enterprise-E after leaving the spacedock in "Nemesis". This sketch is closer to the originally approved design sketch for "First Contact", with its thicker nacelle pylons and the 45° division line between a forward and an aft section of the engineering hull. But the scene of the ship leaving spacedock was removed from the script and "Nemesis" would remain the last movie with this ship and crew. With the Aztec paint pattern, shown on the earlier Enterprise.

thomaselkins

If the Enterprise-E is MIA, then there should be a mission where we find and retrieve it. This could be interesting for a couple of different reasons. For one an updated Sovereign model is inevitable so this could be an interesting way to introduce it. As a canon ship that starred in three movies, it would be nice to have a canon interior made for it. The mission would allow them to make good use of it just like the Voyager's interior was used. It would be neat if they could get Brent Spiner for it, so he can assist with the salvage.

farmallm

To be better, they should have some dialog about it. Anyone look up the history of STO lore in the game. Its been a while since I looked it over.

sunseahl

thomaselkins wrote: »

If the Enterprise-E is MIA, then there should be a mission where we find and retrieve it. This could be interesting for a couple of different reasons. For one an updated Sovereign model is inevitable so this could be an interesting way to introduce it. As a canon ship that starred in three movies, it would be nice to have a canon interior made for it. The mission would allow them to make good use of it just like the Voyager's interior was used. It would be neat if they could get Brent Spiner for it, so he can assist with the salvage.

We probably will never will find the E... I guarantee the Iconians stumbled upon the E at some point in their own thing and THAT is how they found/built templates for alpha quadrant ships to harass the Undine with.​​

rattler2

sunseahl wrote: »

We probably will never will find the E... I guarantee the Iconians stumbled upon the E at some point in their own thing and THAT is how they found/built templates for alpha quadrant ships to harass the Undine with.​​

Based on Sphere of Influence... they wouldn't need to use the Ent-E as a source of information to make convincing fake ships. They had stealth observation posts near major worlds already, and for who knows how long. Why do that when you can just get detailed scans of the ships in real time?

ltminns

To the Canon purist types (not one) there is no confusion. If it didn't happen in a movie or TV series it didn't happen.

thomaselkins

Finding lost Starships isn't out of the norm for Star Trek. Ferengi brought the Stargazer back to Picard and the Pegasus was rediscovered by the Enterprise as well.

azurianstar

kodachikuno wrote: »

starswordc wrote: »

They foreshadowed it in Nemesis. Cryptic and, separately, the novelverse, just drew the logical conclusion from B-4 suddenly singing the song Data sung at Troi and Riker's wedding reception at the start of the movie.

This despite Brent Spiner trying to get them to kill off his character for good, understand.

yes its perfectly logical to expect a physically inferior and more primitive piece of hardware that LaForge even said might not be able to hold all of Data's memory engrams to sprout Data mk2 -.-
As for the novel-verse.. its fun to visit but it aint canon

And yet they forget about Lore. Memory Wipe or switch out heads and presto, Data 2.0.

Though personally, if there was another movie, Data should become the ships computer. With Majel's passing we lost the voice of the Federation's computer. So Data would make a nice replacement, and it being Data, it could easily interject some humor at any time. That pull a Darth Vader and Spiner voice acts over a younger actor.

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rickdanko

I don't read the novels, but Memory Beta mentions that Dr. Soong actually didn't die (as I assumed he did) at the end of "Brothers". He was actually almost done building a new and improved android body for himself. He implanted his mind into the new body and reunited with Data. Together they both worked on a new (and much more human looking) android body for Data, which Data now uses in the novelverse (well, part of it anyway).

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hawku001x

EDIT: Nvm!