A Star Trek game that does not have any kind of exploration system.
Just let that sink in
Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force, Star Trek Legacy, Star Trek Deep Space Nine: Dominion Wars, Star Trek: Starfleet Command, Star Trek: Starfleet Academy, Star Trek: Away team, Star Trek: Shattered Universe, Star Trek: Borg...
There have been several Star Trek games without an "Exploration System". I didn't include the Armada games, SFC2 or 3, or New Worlds because most strategy games include some aspect of Exploration for discovering new resources and where the enemy is. SFC 2 and 3 had that hex map thing you could move around on before actually taking a mission, and Elite Force 2 could have some exploration (a stretch) because of hidden items that can unlock stuff. Klingon Academy COULD have exploration in free play mode, but that's just warping somewhere else and seeing what there is to blow up. But as you can see... there are actually several Star Trek games that don't feature Exploration at all.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
A Star Trek game that does not have any kind of exploration system.
Just let that sink in
Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force, Star Trek Legacy, Star Trek Deep Space Nine: Dominion Wars, Star Trek: Starfleet Command, Star Trek: Starfleet Academy, Star Trek: Away team, Star Trek: Shattered Universe, Star Trek: Borg...
There have been several Star Trek games without an "Exploration System". I didn't include the Armada games, SFC2 or 3, or New Worlds because most strategy games include some aspect of Exploration for discovering new resources and where the enemy is. SFC 2 and 3 had that hex map thing you could move around on before actually taking a mission, and Elite Force 2 could have some exploration (a stretch) because of hidden items that can unlock stuff. Klingon Academy COULD have exploration in free play mode, but that's just warping somewhere else and seeing what there is to blow up. But as you can see... there are actually several Star Trek games that don't feature Exploration at all.
There have obviously been many ST games without exploration, so ggsimmonds was obviously way off the mark. However, there is one significant difference between the games you just listed and STO: this is an MMORPG. This is not a FPS, mainly focused on combat, or a RTS, mainly focused on building. If any type of game would actually have an exploration system, it would be an MMORPG, which is traditionally mainly focused on character development and storytelling. And that's not to say STO hasn't told some good stories, but it certainly hasn't done much with exploring.
And to be clear, just because STO doesn't have any real exploration doesn't mean it is a bad game. Far from it. I enjoy this game a lot, and think the devs have done some really good work. I just think there is a glaring hole in a Trek MMO without any exploration to show for itself. But even without exploration, I still think this is a good game.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,727Community Moderator
When you've never had a Star Trek MMO before STO, can't exaclty compare it to another. And I think the closest we had to one before that was SFC3 and that Dynaverse thing I heard about.
Now if only someone would come up with a way to make SFC3 like a version of DirectX above 9.0c I could die happy. Or if someone knew how to access a free play campaign in SFC2 because it was supposed to have one according to the book if I remember correctly, but it was not an option in game. Just various structured campaigns mostly involving the ISC Invasion.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I've come to the conclusion in my own head that anything They add to the game at this point is a plus.
It may not be exactly what I want or even care to play, but at least it keeps the game viable.
And since it's the only Trek MMO available, I'm happy to see that They still have long range plans which will hopefully let me play this game for a decade or more.
I actually liked the old Exploration system for what it was.
It wasn't something spectacular and was certainly lacking, but it was a nice change of pace and if one used ones imagination a bit, you could play out your own semi-unscripted Trek episode.
>shrug<
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
When you've never had a Star Trek MMO before STO, can't exaclty compare it to another. And I think the closest we had to one before that was SFC3 and that Dynaverse thing I heard about.
Two points:
1) I was not comparing STO to any other Trek MMO, because obviously there is no other Trek MMO. My point was that MMORPGs in general are focused on character development and storytelling, so I don't think it would be a stretch for someone to hear about STO and think "cool, I get to make my own character and explore the final frontier, go where no man has gone before, and all that jazz". It is a logical thought when you combine Star Trek + MMORPG, but unfortunately it is not the case, yet.
2) As someone who played and modded the hell out of SFC3(I actually enjoyed Orion Pirates the best, but anyway), the dynaverse was not exploration, it was territory control. Those are 2 completely different and unrelated things.
I've come to the conclusion in my own head that anything They add to the game at this point is a plus.
It may not be exactly what I want or even care to play, but at least it keeps the game viable.
And since it's the only Trek MMO available, I'm happy to see that They are still have long range plans which will hopefully let me play this game for a decade or more.
I actually liked the old Exploration system for what it was.
It wasn't something spectacular and was certainly lacking, but it was a nice change of pace and if one used ones imagination a bit, you could play out your own semi-unscripted Trek episode.
>shrug<
The old explorations system was misnamed(probably intentionally so they could say STO had "exploration"). In reality, the star cluster missions were 99% patrols. Patrol this system, and destroy these enemy ships(or NPCs on a planet). The rare 1% that actually WAS exploration was when you were simply flying around a planet scanning anomalies, or running around a planet scanning weird alien artifacts. It obviously wasn't very exciting, but there was a tiny bit of real exploration in those star clusters.
And this is why the DEV's don't talk to us... Because they answer a few questions and then everyone derails the discussion into bitching and moaning about everything else which is totally irrelevant to the original topic.
For what it's worth, designing an entire series of exploration themed missions would take a massive investment of time and resources so you must be patient. It's literally almost like designing another game from the ground up.
I agree, it's not easy. But it's been 5 years now(and that's 5 live, with 2 in development, with a total of 7 years of development). How patient do you think people should be? How long into STO's life do you think it should take to develop an exploration system?
"should"? never.
It'd be nice, but let's look at the problems that several people have alluded to.
1: exploration needs to involve things the player hasn't seen. Given that players are apt to "grind" exploration this is very problematic, as no pool of pre-generated missions can be deep enough to satisfy someone who is willing to literally spend all day playing them.
2: Random generation tends to be nonsensical. One of Taco's comments about the old Genesis maps was that the Genesis engine made more nonsensical maps than usable maps. That sort of system is thus unusable except as a dev tool(which is all Genesis ever was.)
3: It's not really exploration if you can't go back. that was another annoyance with the old non-exploration. whenever you left a cluster you would forget all the places you went to inside it. The only way to save a map for later was to abort the mission and leave the mission unfinished.
now for the REALLY hard one:
4: In Star Trek, exploration means meeting new people. Yeah, I have no idea how to make NPCs at random that aren't either nonsensical or so lacking in depth that they might as well be cardboard.
2) As someone who played and modded the hell out of SFC3(I actually enjoyed Orion Pirates the best, but anyway), the dynaverse was not exploration, it was territory control. Those are 2 completely different and unrelated things.
Well... I haven't played SFC3 in years because it hates anything above DX 9.0c. Installs just fine... but won't run. I never played Orion Pirates though.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
My favorite part of this interview was that incredible dodge of the DR feedback question. Or they're really and truly that tone deaf.
Mostly because there isn't anything else to talk about. Season 11: Lower Your Expectations (again)
What did you expect him to say?
Delta Rising made money, so as far as Cryptic/PWE is concerned it was a hit.
I find it kinda silly that folks think that anybody from Cryptic is going to bad-mouth the game in an interview.
I suspect that they all want to keep their jobs.
Mr. Ricossa did hint that not all the players were happy with it, but how you can expect something more than that, is really vacuous.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
And this is why the DEV's don't talk to us... Because they answer a few questions and then everyone derails the discussion into bitching and moaning about everything else which is totally irrelevant to the original topic.
For what it's worth, designing an entire series of exploration themed missions would take a massive investment of time and resources so you must be patient. It's literally almost like designing another game from the ground up.
I agree, it's not easy. But it's been 5 years now(and that's 5 live, with 2 in development, with a total of 7 years of development). How patient do you think people should be? How long into STO's life do you think it should take to develop an exploration system?
"should"? never.
It'd be nice, but let's look at the problems that several people have alluded to.
If you will notice the post I was replying to, they were saying that people should be patient and wait until the exploration system happens. My point, in response, was how long should they wait? Whether an exploration system should actually happen is a separate issue to either of those 2 posts or the points therein.
What "should" happen is subjective and a matter of opinion, so I'm not doing to debate whether vanilla tastes better than chocolate, because different people have different tastes and want different things in their game.
2) As someone who played and modded the hell out of SFC3(I actually enjoyed Orion Pirates the best, but anyway), the dynaverse was not exploration, it was territory control. Those are 2 completely different and unrelated things.
Well... I haven't played SFC3 in years because it hates anything above DX 9.0c. Installs just fine... but won't run. I never played Orion Pirates though.
I've actually got SFC3 on my PC right now, and am able to play it. I think there is a fix out there if you look, but it's been so long since I would have found it that I don't remember what it would have been.
With the current information, Season 11 doesn't even appear to be a full season. Sounds more like Season 10.5. Of course, that could change pending on what more information is to follow.
Very disappointing. STO feels as if it's in maintenance mode with small little add-ons to current features and with new content that isn't as good as what the foundry can produce. At least there is a white board on exploration....
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
With the current information, Season 11 doesn't even appear to be a full season. Sounds more like Season 10.5. Of course, that could change pending on what more information is to follow.
Very disappointing. STO feels as if it's in maintenance mode with small little add-ons to current features and with new content that isn't as good as what the foundry can produce. At least there is a white board on exploration....
I disagree; it sounds like there will be plenty of new content for a season. After all, this is not an expansion. But it does sound like there will be several new episodes, plus a revamp of the Cardassian arc, plus a new battlezone, plus the admiralty system, plus whatever I'm forgetting. Whether it is specifically what you want or not, it's still a lot of stuff.
Maintenance - with new feature episode with major Star Trek voice acting added each month???
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
With the current information, Season 11 doesn't even appear to be a full season. Sounds more like Season 10.5. Of course, that could change pending on what more information is to follow.
Very disappointing. STO feels as if it's in maintenance mode with small little add-ons to current features and with new content that isn't as good as what the foundry can produce. At least there is a white board on exploration....
I disagree; it sounds like there will be plenty of new content for a season. After all, this is not an expansion. But it does sound like there will be several new episodes, plus a revamp of the Cardassian arc, plus a new battlezone, plus the admiralty system, plus whatever I'm forgetting. Whether it is specifically what you want or not, it's still a lot of stuff.
I actually forgot about a few things you mentioned, very good points.
A new battle zone is always welcome, I enjoyed those the most. The new Cardassian revamp is something I'll have to make judgement on when I play it but again, more times than not, I've enjoyed the foundry missions more then I have with Cryptic's creations.
Maintenance - with new feature episode with major Star Trek voice acting added each month???
Hearing someone's voice is worthless to me, especially if you have to hear the same things said over, and over, and over again. But I'm glad you like it.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
Maintenance - with new feature episode with major Star Trek voice acting added each month???
I'll bet there are more than few MMO players out there that wish their favorite game had a "maintenance" mode like this.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Maintenance - with new feature episode with major Star Trek voice acting added each month???
Yeah, anyone who thinks STO is in maintenance mode has never played a game that is really in maintenance mode. I would have cited Champs until yesterday:
A Star Trek game that does not have any kind of exploration system.
Just let that sink in
Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force, Star Trek Legacy, Star Trek Deep Space Nine: Dominion Wars, Star Trek: Starfleet Command, Star Trek: Starfleet Academy, Star Trek: Away team, Star Trek: Shattered Universe, Star Trek: Borg...
There have been several Star Trek games without an "Exploration System". I didn't include the Armada games, SFC2 or 3, or New Worlds because most strategy games include some aspect of Exploration for discovering new resources and where the enemy is. SFC 2 and 3 had that hex map thing you could move around on before actually taking a mission, and Elite Force 2 could have some exploration (a stretch) because of hidden items that can unlock stuff. Klingon Academy COULD have exploration in free play mode, but that's just warping somewhere else and seeing what there is to blow up. But as you can see... there are actually several Star Trek games that don't feature Exploration at all.
I'd add Star Trek 25th Anniversary - one of the greatest classics of the Star Trek games, that did not have an "exploration system". The exploration happened within the missions, just as with Star Trek Online.
The Search for New Romulus, the New Romulus zone, Sphere of Influence, A Step Between Stars, arguably the much decried "boring patrol missions" like Friends in Unlikely Places, Enemies in all the Usual Places, With Friends like These, What's Left Behind, the whole Kobali Temple story arc.
All missions heavily featuring exploration.
STO may not have an "exploration system", but it has exploration, in the Star Trek sense...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
And to be clear, just because STO doesn't have any real exploration doesn't mean it is a bad game. Far from it. I enjoy this game a lot, and think the devs have done some really good work. I just think there is a glaring hole in a Trek MMO without any exploration to show for itself. But even without exploration, I still think this is a good game.
I agree, but the DEV's are learning from their previous error and are taking their time to do exploration right. It's not a simple task so I'm glad they are putting so much thought and time into it. They know it's what people want and it will come soon enough.
Maintenance - with new feature episode with major Star Trek voice acting added each month???
Yeah, anyone who thinks STO is in maintenance mode has never played a game that is really in maintenance mode. I would have cited Champs until yesterday:
Also, there is a new article about STO's Season 11 over an MMORPG.com, and I just updated the OP with a link instead of posting a separate thread.
To be clear I don't actually think it is on maintenance mode, it's just *felt* like it based on the information provided (some of which I forgot that you listed in a previous post).
Edit: Just to add I've played games on maintenance mode and while it does suck on many levels, it isn't all that bad either. Basically they kept the game running without any new additions but the game itself was fine(until it eventually closed down for good).
If you think about it, many of the games that aren't MMO or MMORPG style games are normally just maintenance mode. They might have a few fixes after releases etc.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
And this is why the DEV's don't talk to us... Because they answer a few questions and then everyone derails the discussion into bitching and moaning about everything else which is totally irrelevant to the original topic.
For what it's worth, designing an entire series of exploration themed missions would take a massive investment of time and resources so you must be patient. It's literally almost like designing another game from the ground up.
I agree, it's not easy. But it's been 5 years now(and that's 5 live, with 2 in development, with a total of 7 years of development). How patient do you think people should be? How long into STO's life do you think it should take to develop an exploration system?
"should"? never.
It'd be nice, but let's look at the problems that several people have alluded to.
1: exploration needs to involve things the player hasn't seen. Given that players are apt to "grind" exploration this is very problematic, as no pool of pre-generated missions can be deep enough to satisfy someone who is willing to literally spend all day playing them.
2: Random generation tends to be nonsensical. One of Taco's comments about the old Genesis maps was that the Genesis engine made more nonsensical maps than usable maps. That sort of system is thus unusable except as a dev tool(which is all Genesis ever was.)
3: It's not really exploration if you can't go back. that was another annoyance with the old non-exploration. whenever you left a cluster you would forget all the places you went to inside it. The only way to save a map for later was to abort the mission and leave the mission unfinished.
now for the REALLY hard one:
4: In Star Trek, exploration means meeting new people. Yeah, I have no idea how to make NPCs at random that aren't either nonsensical or so lacking in depth that they might as well be cardboard.
I will say a couple of things.
First, excellent list and observation.
Second, a typical MMO doesn't procedurally generate worlds like this. Some new games are getting there but games like WoW or EQ are considered rich in exploration.
I would also add that the exploration in Star Trek has almost only rarely actually been about going "where no man has gone before" altogether. DS9 rarely set foot in the Gamma Quadrant for exploration. TOS was about "going where a survey team left behind its book collection, contaminating a culture."
The "where no man has gone before" is more about the themes and the journey towards new experiences, not necessarily planets no one had literally set foot on. (And if you find natives there, someone's been there. There's some colonialism buried in all that hype if you don't count the natives when you're off exploring.)
The "where no man has gone before" is a "once upon a time" or a "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" type induction mechanism. It's creating a blank slate for suspension of disbelief and deals with moral themes, not necessarily literally going where there are no inhabitants (kind of boring; any planet without inhabitants in Trek turns out to have inhabitants) or where no researcher has gone before (because real science can be kind of boring for stretches of time and it's much easier for a "prior survey team" to set up your plot and exposition).
Similarly westerns (which TOS was based on) and Horatio Hornblower (which inspired TOS and was felt more in TNG) are not so much about being the first on a piece of physical ground. They tend to take place in establishes locales (a settlement, a system of colonies) where there is still some uncertainty and a big, blank moral canvas for addressing issues of right and wrong.
I don't think we necessarily need unlimited LAND to explore procedurally generated. New games are coming out that promise that and I'm sure a Star Trek game will eventually happen with that. I'm not sure that's what makes Trek tick or that Cryptic could get the massive resources needed to do that here.
So... I'll offer a counter as to what I think exploration is:
Exploration is uncertainty and having new things to do. I have a whole system like this I was working on a design doc for to submit to Cryptic at one point before I realized I'd be better off sitting on it and trying to think up a way I can market it myself, because I've got student loans, doggone it.
But the gist is, I think, to create interactions of things in established places that make them feel bigger and lend a sense of a larger universe and unpredictability.
Currently, how much time do you spend on New Romulus? I've done the dailies a few times but it's not like I ever felt like I'd find something unexpected there. And New Romulus is a huge investment.
I think a system that leverages exploration can go the opposite way that some are thinking with the Genesis system and can make Kobali Prime, Deferra, New Romulus, Nimbus, new locations in that style, and sector space as a whole into places where you can still be exploring after you've walked around them.
I'll give you a couple of examples from WoW. I've played a lot of games but it's hard to compare with the hours I spent in WoW. They had a rare weapon drop from an enemy in content few people were actually well geared enough to play, statistically, at level 60. The Corrupted Ashbringer. They also had an exceedingly rare item drop from a random set of enemies detailing how the sword was created and suggesting it could be repaired. And then someone found that if you took the sword into the corrupted monastery instance (much lower level) where it was once wielded by a paladin, everyone would bow before you instead of fighting. And you'd trigger a game event when you reached the boss hinting how the sword could be purified.
There was never a way for a player to wield a purified version of the sword. An NPC wound up doing that and it won't be until the next expansion, ten years later, that players get the sword.
WoW has many "go here with X and get Y result" type content chains, as many fantasy games do. And communities form around breaking the clues, testing things out. People found you could attack the guards in port cities and become a pirate with a title and unique cosmetic hat. I did this. It took days but I did it. There was another place where you'd run what seemed like the same three repeatable quests for weeks for one guy and you'd get a lavender, unarmored sabretooth tiger to ride as a reward.
I once spent a couple of weeks with a group of people chasing down a rumor that there was a cave hidden somewhere where, when the clock struck a certain hour, a vendor would appear.
Some of this would be bad for STO. But the idea of mysteries that take groups of us brainstorming, well... We have some of that. And if that were in the game itself, that would prompt massive exploration. "I'm going to try this, now I'm going to try this with this and go here." That's RPG exploration and STO could do that, I think.
And, yes, there are dataminers and there are ways to throw them off the scent.
And this is why the DEV's don't talk to us... Because they answer a few questions and then everyone derails the discussion into bitching and moaning about everything else which is totally irrelevant to the original topic.
For what it's worth, designing an entire series of exploration themed missions would take a massive investment of time and resources so you must be patient. It's literally almost like designing another game from the ground up.
I agree, it's not easy. But it's been 5 years now(and that's 5 live, with 2 in development, with a total of 7 years of development). How patient do you think people should be? How long into STO's life do you think it should take to develop an exploration system?
"should"? never.
It'd be nice, but let's look at the problems that several people have alluded to.
1: exploration needs to involve things the player hasn't seen. Given that players are apt to "grind" exploration this is very problematic, as no pool of pre-generated missions can be deep enough to satisfy someone who is willing to literally spend all day playing them.
2: Random generation tends to be nonsensical. One of Taco's comments about the old Genesis maps was that the Genesis engine made more nonsensical maps than usable maps. That sort of system is thus unusable except as a dev tool(which is all Genesis ever was.)
3: It's not really exploration if you can't go back. that was another annoyance with the old non-exploration. whenever you left a cluster you would forget all the places you went to inside it. The only way to save a map for later was to abort the mission and leave the mission unfinished.
now for the REALLY hard one:
4: In Star Trek, exploration means meeting new people. Yeah, I have no idea how to make NPCs at random that aren't either nonsensical or so lacking in depth that they might as well be cardboard.
Responding to the problems...
Point 1.... This is an issue that will never be solvable. It can be mitigated, but not solved. There is no way a procedurally created content that won't be duplicated. So I don't see this as a valid point to stop exploration from happening. For even in the real world, exploration involves a lot of reputation till you find something new. Given that, exploration can be created so that you can include "twists" that won't repeat for say 20 or 30 tries. But even that can be figured out if your dedicated player of exploration. But for the most part, it should satisfy the majority of the players definition of exploration.
Point 2.... This can be monitored have additional code written to keep the more nonsensical things from happening. But this comes at the cost of bloating the software. So it's got be worth it. But it will never truly cover all of the combinations for that would be just to much bloat on the code.
Point 3... this is a limitation of space. Storage space. So either you accept that the these 'exploration locations' are mutable ever changing spots, or you have everything preplanned out and instanced so that as you discover it opens up. Instancing will limit playing with friends and takes up valuable server space. It also means that new exploration locations need to be added on a regular basis. It also means that new code would have to be added to track exploration progress on a per character basis. From a technical aspect, it would be easier to have the find and forget process. Saves on space and development time.
Point 4.... Unless they sit down and hand craft each minor alien for depth, there is never going to be a good solution for this. But then, is there really a need for in depth details on every race? I don't think that even the Star Trek shows went very in depth on every species that is shown. So I don't see that this is necessary to make a good or even decent exploration based content.
All in all, exploration is what people will make of it. The exploration system was not that terrible, but it was not that varied either. I think that if they had expanded upon the possibilities that the old system would still have been viable.
But to create a new exploration system, they just need to make the exploration FEEL like exploration. Even if it is repetition of things done in the past. And that may be want is holding them up on the development more than anything else.
Ok, since we're brinstorming here, this is my idea for an exploration system of sorts with somewhat randomized content:
A new quadrant named "unexplored space" is added to the game map.
Inside this new quadrant, all of the systems are named "unexplored system".
When you fly up to a system, you get the option to "explore system".
You then load into a space map with a planet(note that both the texture of the space map itself and the planet texture can be randomized, giving a different visual appearance each time).
You approach the planet, establish orbit, begin launching probes and taking scans.
After all probes are launched and scans are completed, you get a location that would be good for an away team to explore.
When you beam to the ground map, the type of map(forest, jungle, desert, ice, etc) as well as the sky texture could be randomized, giving a different visual appearance each time.
Your objective is to scout the area and take samples and scans of the flora and fauna, similar to New Romulus.
The planet can have various animals running around, with randomized appearances giving a different visual appearance each time. Think hitting the "random" button on the character creator, except with an animal and no clothing.
Some animal groups may be hostile, some may not, meaning you would have to either avoid them or defend yourself if attacked.
After completing your survey and taking various samples, the mission is complete and you file your report to starfleet.
Note that I am not saying this should be the entirety of the exploration system, but simply one component. Also, I am aware there are potential problems with some of the randomization of textures, so there would have to be defined limits of what library is pulled from.
I agree, it's not easy. But it's been 5 years now(and that's 5 live, with 2 in development, with a total of 7 years of development). How patient do you think people should be? How long into STO's life do you think it should take to develop an exploration system?
I have no idea how long it should take. It hasn't been done before, AFAIK... How long should it take for us to find the cure for cancer or AIDS? We've been working for decades on it!
There are now games out there, like Elite Dangerous, and games in development, like No Man's Sky, that can create a vast universe of star systems. In case of No Man's Sky, these star systems will even have planets populated by alien fauna and flora.
But..as far as I know, none of them actually manages to tell any stories there. And that's what Star Trek did. If you go down on one of those planets in No Man's Sky, it doesn't look like you will meet a bunch of miners that accidentally killed the children of a subterran creature. You won't find a scientist that wishes to transfer a native species to a differnt planet as their current home is threatened, violating standing orders or important laws...
Exploration where you just scan 5 objectives and move on to the next system is pretty boring IMO. It's also decidedly not what I associate with Star Trek. Even if regular exploration might look exactly like that, every "exploration" we saw had some kind of story.
Maybe it would just be better if Cryptic made more "exploration missions" then - stand-alone missions, no larger narrative, focusing on exploring a new planet and a new culture. But of course, that's not a "system", it's not repeatable (at least not in the "oh, what will happen this time" sense.) But it will at least provide the Star Trek flair that people are missing due to all the combat-focused story missions that try to tell the ongoing storyline.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I agree, it's not easy. But it's been 5 years now(and that's 5 live, with 2 in development, with a total of 7 years of development). How patient do you think people should be? How long into STO's life do you think it should take to develop an exploration system?
I have no idea how long it should take. It hasn't been done before, AFAIK... How long should it take for us to find the cure for cancer or AIDS? We've been working for decades on it!
There are now games out there, like Elite Dangerous, and games in development, like No Man's Sky, that can create a vast universe of star systems. In case of No Man's Sky, these star systems will even have planets populated by alien fauna and flora.
But..as far as I know, none of them actually manages to tell any stories there. And that's what Star Trek did. If you go down on one of those planets in No Man's Sky, it doesn't look like you will meet a bunch of miners that accidentally killed the children of a subterran creature. You won't find a scientist that wishes to transfer a native species to a differnt planet as their current home is threatened, violating standing orders or important laws...
Exploration where you just scan 5 objectives and move on to the next system is pretty boring IMO. It's also decidedly not what I associate with Star Trek. Even if regular exploration might look exactly like that, every "exploration" we saw had some kind of story.
Maybe it would just be better if Cryptic made more "exploration missions" then - stand-alone missions, no larger narrative, focusing on exploring a new planet and a new culture. But of course, that's not a "system", it's not repeatable (at least not in the "oh, what will happen this time" sense.) But it will at least provide the Star Trek flair that people are missing due to all the combat-focused story missions that try to tell the ongoing storyline.
I think there are 2 different types of exploration: exploring the environment, and some specific storyline involving a new species. For the latter, I actually think the Defari arc is a great example, and this is something that obviously couldn't be randomized. However environmental and planetary exploration could be randomized, and have plenty of visual variety. Sure, you may not want to do it all day long, but just having a daily of exploring some new system/planet would be fun to me, and provide some variety of gameplay that doesn't involve combat.
translation of "we've done some whiteboarding" for those who are not familiar with the term or its use in business courtesy of Tim Russ (warning, salty language):
All the people upset they arent getting an Exploration System. By all means introduce a point by point plan for implementing one that Cryptic can actually use and addresses the issues of the last Exploration System.
After the dissolution of the Exploration Clusters there was debate on the subject. Cryptic claimed the old Genesis based system was far too limiting in what it could do and that a human touch would be better received, as they explained, so the Foundry would replace what the exploration cluster missions were. Then the Top 3 system was implemented.
It's a good idea in theory but STO is too heavily dependent on dev generated content. Eve was talked about a lot - but the ugly truth is if Cryptic indeed flipped the game onto a new engine with an EVE like open world environment where the players generate the bulk of the content you may very well be disgusted by what you get. This may be star trek a game but we do not live in a star trek reality. Just imagine if every STO 1000 day veteran 100,000K DPS king PvPer could attack you at any time without you accepting the challenge or not. Yeah.
The conservation during this time was intense and the Exploration Removal announcement thread alone is filled with tons of ideas and suggestions. One such debate was whether Foundry missions were good enough to replace the removed exploration system and in one such debate I challenged a naysayer that indeed a human author could create a much better exploration mission then Cryptic's genesis engine and be just as fun - of course I said this not having created a foundry mission before - so I headed out to the foundry, along dozens of other authors and we made a slew of explorations missions.
I say all of that to say this: i learned quickly the real issue behind bringing exploration to STO and while part of it is technical limitation (Cryptic has pigeon holed themselves to a model where they have to provide EVERYTHING for the game to survive, that's a lot of hand holding) the other can be summarized by a timely question a single dev made that immediately changed the conversation.
"What IS exploration?"
I'll end with a few feedback responses from people who played my exploration mission to give you some idea of the issues that would need to be overcome (these are real, and copy and pasted):
"An excellent mission of exploration. Searching for the objectives was fun. Thanks. I enjoyed it very much."
"I couldn't find the objectives so I gave up."
"Really clever thoughtful exploration type mission."
"Garbage"
"It was absolutely incredible, great story line! Space and ground was great too. This reminded me of an episode of TNG. Keep making more!"
"You need to match your timeline to canon and the set designs were bland. A lot of typoes. and climb to nav marker? do you have any concept of space?"
When you've never had a Star Trek MMO before STO, can't exaclty compare it to another. And I think the closest we had to one before that was SFC3 and that Dynaverse thing I heard about.
Now if only someone would come up with a way to make SFC3 like a version of DirectX above 9.0c I could die happy. Or if someone knew how to access a free play campaign in SFC2 because it was supposed to have one according to the book if I remember correctly, but it was not an option in game. Just various structured campaigns mostly involving the ISC Invasion.
As someone that participated and help evolve and work along side some of the largest modding teams under SFC3 under the dynaverse i can say that i would love to see some type of territory system, it might not have been per se an exploration system, in a sense it was but had that extra bit that you had to basically flip hexes in order to see what was there, in the process of the territory system. I remember campaigns that went on for MONTHS at a time, we had to coordinate with our European counterparts in order to keep the war going on and on. Id love to see Cryptic try and implement something like that in STO, it would go a long way.
When you've never had a Star Trek MMO before STO, can't exaclty compare it to another. And I think the closest we had to one before that was SFC3 and that Dynaverse thing I heard about.
Two points:
1) I was not comparing STO to any other Trek MMO, because obviously there is no other Trek MMO. My point was that MMORPGs in general are focused on character development and storytelling, so I don't think it would be a stretch for someone to hear about STO and think "cool, I get to make my own character and explore the final frontier, go where no man has gone before, and all that jazz". It is a logical thought when you combine Star Trek + MMORPG, but unfortunately it is not the case, yet.
2) As someone who played and modded the hell out of SFC3(I actually enjoyed Orion Pirates the best, but anyway), the dynaverse was not exploration, it was territory control. Those are 2 completely different and unrelated things.
GrandNagus, Acidrain here. What are your thoughts as it relates to what was SFC3 could be implemented in STO? As someone tht also worked and helped modding teams, i think it would take this game in a great direction if it could be implemented correctly. Id even say, that in a way the dynaverse in a sense was an closed exploration system, in part that one didn't know what was going to be in terms of flipping the hexes within the campaign. I think overall if the devs would implement SFC3 territory system into STO, it would bring a sense of purpose to the game.
As for the exploration system idea, i am not sure how that could be implemented but i have seen some very good detailed ideas in the past on these forums by some ppl that made some great plans on how it could be implemented.
Note: I didnt realize you were the same GrandNagus from SFC3.
Commander Shran - You tell Archer, that is three the pink skin owes me!
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There have been several Star Trek games without an "Exploration System". I didn't include the Armada games, SFC2 or 3, or New Worlds because most strategy games include some aspect of Exploration for discovering new resources and where the enemy is. SFC 2 and 3 had that hex map thing you could move around on before actually taking a mission, and Elite Force 2 could have some exploration (a stretch) because of hidden items that can unlock stuff. Klingon Academy COULD have exploration in free play mode, but that's just warping somewhere else and seeing what there is to blow up. But as you can see... there are actually several Star Trek games that don't feature Exploration at all.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
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There have obviously been many ST games without exploration, so ggsimmonds was obviously way off the mark. However, there is one significant difference between the games you just listed and STO: this is an MMORPG. This is not a FPS, mainly focused on combat, or a RTS, mainly focused on building. If any type of game would actually have an exploration system, it would be an MMORPG, which is traditionally mainly focused on character development and storytelling. And that's not to say STO hasn't told some good stories, but it certainly hasn't done much with exploring.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Now if only someone would come up with a way to make SFC3 like a version of DirectX above 9.0c I could die happy. Or if someone knew how to access a free play campaign in SFC2 because it was supposed to have one according to the book if I remember correctly, but it was not an option in game. Just various structured campaigns mostly involving the ISC Invasion.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
It may not be exactly what I want or even care to play, but at least it keeps the game viable.
And since it's the only Trek MMO available, I'm happy to see that They still have long range plans which will hopefully let me play this game for a decade or more.
I actually liked the old Exploration system for what it was.
It wasn't something spectacular and was certainly lacking, but it was a nice change of pace and if one used ones imagination a bit, you could play out your own semi-unscripted Trek episode.
>shrug<
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Two points:
1) I was not comparing STO to any other Trek MMO, because obviously there is no other Trek MMO. My point was that MMORPGs in general are focused on character development and storytelling, so I don't think it would be a stretch for someone to hear about STO and think "cool, I get to make my own character and explore the final frontier, go where no man has gone before, and all that jazz". It is a logical thought when you combine Star Trek + MMORPG, but unfortunately it is not the case, yet.
2) As someone who played and modded the hell out of SFC3(I actually enjoyed Orion Pirates the best, but anyway), the dynaverse was not exploration, it was territory control. Those are 2 completely different and unrelated things.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The old explorations system was misnamed(probably intentionally so they could say STO had "exploration"). In reality, the star cluster missions were 99% patrols. Patrol this system, and destroy these enemy ships(or NPCs on a planet). The rare 1% that actually WAS exploration was when you were simply flying around a planet scanning anomalies, or running around a planet scanning weird alien artifacts. It obviously wasn't very exciting, but there was a tiny bit of real exploration in those star clusters.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Mostly because there isn't anything else to talk about. Season 11: Lower Your Expectations (again)
It'd be nice, but let's look at the problems that several people have alluded to.
1: exploration needs to involve things the player hasn't seen. Given that players are apt to "grind" exploration this is very problematic, as no pool of pre-generated missions can be deep enough to satisfy someone who is willing to literally spend all day playing them.
2: Random generation tends to be nonsensical. One of Taco's comments about the old Genesis maps was that the Genesis engine made more nonsensical maps than usable maps. That sort of system is thus unusable except as a dev tool(which is all Genesis ever was.)
3: It's not really exploration if you can't go back. that was another annoyance with the old non-exploration. whenever you left a cluster you would forget all the places you went to inside it.
now for the REALLY hard one:
4: In Star Trek, exploration means meeting new people. Yeah, I have no idea how to make NPCs at random that aren't either nonsensical or so lacking in depth that they might as well be cardboard.
My character Tsin'xing
Well... I haven't played SFC3 in years because it hates anything above DX 9.0c. Installs just fine... but won't run. I never played Orion Pirates though.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
What did you expect him to say?
Delta Rising made money, so as far as Cryptic/PWE is concerned it was a hit.
I find it kinda silly that folks think that anybody from Cryptic is going to bad-mouth the game in an interview.
I suspect that they all want to keep their jobs.
Mr. Ricossa did hint that not all the players were happy with it, but how you can expect something more than that, is really vacuous.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
If you will notice the post I was replying to, they were saying that people should be patient and wait until the exploration system happens. My point, in response, was how long should they wait? Whether an exploration system should actually happen is a separate issue to either of those 2 posts or the points therein.
What "should" happen is subjective and a matter of opinion, so I'm not doing to debate whether vanilla tastes better than chocolate, because different people have different tastes and want different things in their game.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I've actually got SFC3 on my PC right now, and am able to play it. I think there is a fix out there if you look, but it's been so long since I would have found it that I don't remember what it would have been.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Very disappointing. STO feels as if it's in maintenance mode with small little add-ons to current features and with new content that isn't as good as what the foundry can produce. At least there is a white board on exploration....
I disagree; it sounds like there will be plenty of new content for a season. After all, this is not an expansion. But it does sound like there will be several new episodes, plus a revamp of the Cardassian arc, plus a new battlezone, plus the admiralty system, plus whatever I'm forgetting. Whether it is specifically what you want or not, it's still a lot of stuff.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I actually forgot about a few things you mentioned, very good points.
A new battle zone is always welcome, I enjoyed those the most. The new Cardassian revamp is something I'll have to make judgement on when I play it but again, more times than not, I've enjoyed the foundry missions more then I have with Cryptic's creations.
Hearing someone's voice is worthless to me, especially if you have to hear the same things said over, and over, and over again. But I'm glad you like it.
I'll bet there are more than few MMO players out there that wish their favorite game had a "maintenance" mode like this.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Yeah, anyone who thinks STO is in maintenance mode has never played a game that is really in maintenance mode. I would have cited Champs until yesterday:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/335/feature/10007/Champions-Online-Get-Ready-to-Unleash-Your-Inner-Villain.html
Also, there is a new article about STO's Season 11 over an MMORPG.com, and I just updated the OP with a link instead of posting a separate thread.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The Search for New Romulus, the New Romulus zone, Sphere of Influence, A Step Between Stars, arguably the much decried "boring patrol missions" like Friends in Unlikely Places, Enemies in all the Usual Places, With Friends like These, What's Left Behind, the whole Kobali Temple story arc.
All missions heavily featuring exploration.
STO may not have an "exploration system", but it has exploration, in the Star Trek sense...
I agree, but the DEV's are learning from their previous error and are taking their time to do exploration right. It's not a simple task so I'm glad they are putting so much thought and time into it. They know it's what people want and it will come soon enough.
To be clear I don't actually think it is on maintenance mode, it's just *felt* like it based on the information provided (some of which I forgot that you listed in a previous post).
Edit: Just to add I've played games on maintenance mode and while it does suck on many levels, it isn't all that bad either. Basically they kept the game running without any new additions but the game itself was fine(until it eventually closed down for good).
If you think about it, many of the games that aren't MMO or MMORPG style games are normally just maintenance mode. They might have a few fixes after releases etc.
I will say a couple of things.
First, excellent list and observation.
Second, a typical MMO doesn't procedurally generate worlds like this. Some new games are getting there but games like WoW or EQ are considered rich in exploration.
I would also add that the exploration in Star Trek has almost only rarely actually been about going "where no man has gone before" altogether. DS9 rarely set foot in the Gamma Quadrant for exploration. TOS was about "going where a survey team left behind its book collection, contaminating a culture."
The "where no man has gone before" is more about the themes and the journey towards new experiences, not necessarily planets no one had literally set foot on. (And if you find natives there, someone's been there. There's some colonialism buried in all that hype if you don't count the natives when you're off exploring.)
The "where no man has gone before" is a "once upon a time" or a "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" type induction mechanism. It's creating a blank slate for suspension of disbelief and deals with moral themes, not necessarily literally going where there are no inhabitants (kind of boring; any planet without inhabitants in Trek turns out to have inhabitants) or where no researcher has gone before (because real science can be kind of boring for stretches of time and it's much easier for a "prior survey team" to set up your plot and exposition).
Similarly westerns (which TOS was based on) and Horatio Hornblower (which inspired TOS and was felt more in TNG) are not so much about being the first on a piece of physical ground. They tend to take place in establishes locales (a settlement, a system of colonies) where there is still some uncertainty and a big, blank moral canvas for addressing issues of right and wrong.
I don't think we necessarily need unlimited LAND to explore procedurally generated. New games are coming out that promise that and I'm sure a Star Trek game will eventually happen with that. I'm not sure that's what makes Trek tick or that Cryptic could get the massive resources needed to do that here.
So... I'll offer a counter as to what I think exploration is:
Exploration is uncertainty and having new things to do. I have a whole system like this I was working on a design doc for to submit to Cryptic at one point before I realized I'd be better off sitting on it and trying to think up a way I can market it myself, because I've got student loans, doggone it.
But the gist is, I think, to create interactions of things in established places that make them feel bigger and lend a sense of a larger universe and unpredictability.
Currently, how much time do you spend on New Romulus? I've done the dailies a few times but it's not like I ever felt like I'd find something unexpected there. And New Romulus is a huge investment.
I think a system that leverages exploration can go the opposite way that some are thinking with the Genesis system and can make Kobali Prime, Deferra, New Romulus, Nimbus, new locations in that style, and sector space as a whole into places where you can still be exploring after you've walked around them.
I'll give you a couple of examples from WoW. I've played a lot of games but it's hard to compare with the hours I spent in WoW. They had a rare weapon drop from an enemy in content few people were actually well geared enough to play, statistically, at level 60. The Corrupted Ashbringer. They also had an exceedingly rare item drop from a random set of enemies detailing how the sword was created and suggesting it could be repaired. And then someone found that if you took the sword into the corrupted monastery instance (much lower level) where it was once wielded by a paladin, everyone would bow before you instead of fighting. And you'd trigger a game event when you reached the boss hinting how the sword could be purified.
There was never a way for a player to wield a purified version of the sword. An NPC wound up doing that and it won't be until the next expansion, ten years later, that players get the sword.
WoW has many "go here with X and get Y result" type content chains, as many fantasy games do. And communities form around breaking the clues, testing things out. People found you could attack the guards in port cities and become a pirate with a title and unique cosmetic hat. I did this. It took days but I did it. There was another place where you'd run what seemed like the same three repeatable quests for weeks for one guy and you'd get a lavender, unarmored sabretooth tiger to ride as a reward.
I once spent a couple of weeks with a group of people chasing down a rumor that there was a cave hidden somewhere where, when the clock struck a certain hour, a vendor would appear.
Some of this would be bad for STO. But the idea of mysteries that take groups of us brainstorming, well... We have some of that. And if that were in the game itself, that would prompt massive exploration. "I'm going to try this, now I'm going to try this with this and go here." That's RPG exploration and STO could do that, I think.
And, yes, there are dataminers and there are ways to throw them off the scent.
Responding to the problems...
Point 1.... This is an issue that will never be solvable. It can be mitigated, but not solved. There is no way a procedurally created content that won't be duplicated. So I don't see this as a valid point to stop exploration from happening. For even in the real world, exploration involves a lot of reputation till you find something new. Given that, exploration can be created so that you can include "twists" that won't repeat for say 20 or 30 tries. But even that can be figured out if your dedicated player of exploration. But for the most part, it should satisfy the majority of the players definition of exploration.
Point 2.... This can be monitored have additional code written to keep the more nonsensical things from happening. But this comes at the cost of bloating the software. So it's got be worth it. But it will never truly cover all of the combinations for that would be just to much bloat on the code.
Point 3... this is a limitation of space. Storage space. So either you accept that the these 'exploration locations' are mutable ever changing spots, or you have everything preplanned out and instanced so that as you discover it opens up. Instancing will limit playing with friends and takes up valuable server space. It also means that new exploration locations need to be added on a regular basis. It also means that new code would have to be added to track exploration progress on a per character basis. From a technical aspect, it would be easier to have the find and forget process. Saves on space and development time.
Point 4.... Unless they sit down and hand craft each minor alien for depth, there is never going to be a good solution for this. But then, is there really a need for in depth details on every race? I don't think that even the Star Trek shows went very in depth on every species that is shown. So I don't see that this is necessary to make a good or even decent exploration based content.
All in all, exploration is what people will make of it. The exploration system was not that terrible, but it was not that varied either. I think that if they had expanded upon the possibilities that the old system would still have been viable.
But to create a new exploration system, they just need to make the exploration FEEL like exploration. Even if it is repetition of things done in the past. And that may be want is holding them up on the development more than anything else.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Note that I am not saying this should be the entirety of the exploration system, but simply one component. Also, I am aware there are potential problems with some of the randomization of textures, so there would have to be defined limits of what library is pulled from.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
There are now games out there, like Elite Dangerous, and games in development, like No Man's Sky, that can create a vast universe of star systems. In case of No Man's Sky, these star systems will even have planets populated by alien fauna and flora.
But..as far as I know, none of them actually manages to tell any stories there. And that's what Star Trek did. If you go down on one of those planets in No Man's Sky, it doesn't look like you will meet a bunch of miners that accidentally killed the children of a subterran creature. You won't find a scientist that wishes to transfer a native species to a differnt planet as their current home is threatened, violating standing orders or important laws...
Exploration where you just scan 5 objectives and move on to the next system is pretty boring IMO. It's also decidedly not what I associate with Star Trek. Even if regular exploration might look exactly like that, every "exploration" we saw had some kind of story.
Maybe it would just be better if Cryptic made more "exploration missions" then - stand-alone missions, no larger narrative, focusing on exploring a new planet and a new culture. But of course, that's not a "system", it's not repeatable (at least not in the "oh, what will happen this time" sense.) But it will at least provide the Star Trek flair that people are missing due to all the combat-focused story missions that try to tell the ongoing storyline.
I think there are 2 different types of exploration: exploring the environment, and some specific storyline involving a new species. For the latter, I actually think the Defari arc is a great example, and this is something that obviously couldn't be randomized. However environmental and planetary exploration could be randomized, and have plenty of visual variety. Sure, you may not want to do it all day long, but just having a daily of exploring some new system/planet would be fun to me, and provide some variety of gameplay that doesn't involve combat.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
After the dissolution of the Exploration Clusters there was debate on the subject. Cryptic claimed the old Genesis based system was far too limiting in what it could do and that a human touch would be better received, as they explained, so the Foundry would replace what the exploration cluster missions were. Then the Top 3 system was implemented.
It's a good idea in theory but STO is too heavily dependent on dev generated content. Eve was talked about a lot - but the ugly truth is if Cryptic indeed flipped the game onto a new engine with an EVE like open world environment where the players generate the bulk of the content you may very well be disgusted by what you get. This may be star trek a game but we do not live in a star trek reality. Just imagine if every STO 1000 day veteran 100,000K DPS king PvPer could attack you at any time without you accepting the challenge or not. Yeah.
The conservation during this time was intense and the Exploration Removal announcement thread alone is filled with tons of ideas and suggestions. One such debate was whether Foundry missions were good enough to replace the removed exploration system and in one such debate I challenged a naysayer that indeed a human author could create a much better exploration mission then Cryptic's genesis engine and be just as fun - of course I said this not having created a foundry mission before - so I headed out to the foundry, along dozens of other authors and we made a slew of explorations missions.
I say all of that to say this: i learned quickly the real issue behind bringing exploration to STO and while part of it is technical limitation (Cryptic has pigeon holed themselves to a model where they have to provide EVERYTHING for the game to survive, that's a lot of hand holding) the other can be summarized by a timely question a single dev made that immediately changed the conversation.
"What IS exploration?"
I'll end with a few feedback responses from people who played my exploration mission to give you some idea of the issues that would need to be overcome (these are real, and copy and pasted):
"An excellent mission of exploration. Searching for the objectives was fun. Thanks. I enjoyed it very much."
"I couldn't find the objectives so I gave up."
"Really clever thoughtful exploration type mission."
"Garbage"
"It was absolutely incredible, great story line! Space and ground was great too. This reminded me of an episode of TNG. Keep making more!"
"You need to match your timeline to canon and the set designs were bland. A lot of typoes. and climb to nav marker? do you have any concept of space?"
"That was hard. The guards were too tough"
"Needs more guards. That was fun"
As someone that participated and help evolve and work along side some of the largest modding teams under SFC3 under the dynaverse i can say that i would love to see some type of territory system, it might not have been per se an exploration system, in a sense it was but had that extra bit that you had to basically flip hexes in order to see what was there, in the process of the territory system. I remember campaigns that went on for MONTHS at a time, we had to coordinate with our European counterparts in order to keep the war going on and on. Id love to see Cryptic try and implement something like that in STO, it would go a long way.
GrandNagus, Acidrain here. What are your thoughts as it relates to what was SFC3 could be implemented in STO? As someone tht also worked and helped modding teams, i think it would take this game in a great direction if it could be implemented correctly. Id even say, that in a way the dynaverse in a sense was an closed exploration system, in part that one didn't know what was going to be in terms of flipping the hexes within the campaign. I think overall if the devs would implement SFC3 territory system into STO, it would bring a sense of purpose to the game.
As for the exploration system idea, i am not sure how that could be implemented but i have seen some very good detailed ideas in the past on these forums by some ppl that made some great plans on how it could be implemented.
Note: I didnt realize you were the same GrandNagus from SFC3.