Ok, since we're brinstorming here, this is my idea for an exploration system of sorts with somewhat randomized content:
A new quadrant named "unexplored space" is added to the game map.
Inside this new quadrant, all of the systems are named "unexplored system".
When you fly up to a system, you get the option to "explore system".
You then load into a space map with a planet(note that both the texture of the space map itself and the planet texture can be randomized, giving a different visual appearance each time).
You approach the planet, establish orbit, begin launching probes and taking scans.
After all probes are launched and scans are completed, you get a location that would be good for an away team to explore.
When you beam to the ground map, the type of map(forest, jungle, desert, ice, etc) as well as the sky texture could be randomized, giving a different visual appearance each time.
Your objective is to scout the area and take samples and scans of the flora and fauna, similar to New Romulus.
The planet can have various animals running around, with randomized appearances giving a different visual appearance each time. Think hitting the "random" button on the character creator, except with an animal and no clothing.
Some animal groups may be hostile, some may not, meaning you would have to either avoid them or defend yourself if attacked.
After completing your survey and taking various samples, the mission is complete and you file your report to starfleet.
Note that I am not saying this should be the entirety of the exploration system, but simply one component. Also, I am aware there are potential problems with some of the randomization of textures, so there would have to be defined limits of what library is pulled from.
The thing is - spitballing ideas is comparatively easy, regardless of whether you spend one post or 10 pages on it.
The devil is always in the detail, in the actual implementation of a system that works. And most of these only become clear once you start working on it and try to implement it. How does it all work together - do you actually end up with a game, will there be any actual choices made.
If you compare the old exploration missions with the DOFF system for example.
A "Scan 5" mission is essentialy going in a line to each scan object. There is no real meaningful choice. If there is a combat somewhere on the map, you can try to evade it (if the mission objectivces allow it), and if you actually enter combat, you have plenty of choices on what powers you use, when to use them, how to maneuver and all that. But if you just boil it down to the non-combat part, it's visit 5 points and no decision points.
The DOFF system is really simplistic. It's just a simple interface, no fancy maps. But - you have to decide on which duty officers to send on which mission. Do you optimze for Success or Critical Chance? Did you consider that if you send your best Astrometics Officer on Mission X, you won't have him for Mission Y? Is X rewarding enough, or should you use a worse officer so you can spend your best officer on Mission Y? Also, you will need to spend a Duty Officer Assignment slot on that mission - should you do that, or is there a better mission to fill it?
From a game point of view, it has a lot more choices.
How do you get this into an exploration system? What resources do you need to manage (and if it's merely opportunity cost), what choices do you need to make?
If there aren't any choices, you end up with "Scan 5 Objectives" and people will feel unfulfilled by it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Note: I didnt realize you were the same GrandNagus from SFC3.
At the very end of my modding I actually made a "Star Trek Online" mod for SFC3. It was hosted on filefront, which is gone now, but this is the only place I could still find it on the net when I just searched:
As you can see, this mod was made before STO even came out, so I took some creative license with the storyline as I was not sure what STO's storyline was at that point beyond some vague details. I also made several updates adding more ships to each faction, but that is all lost on filefront =P
The devil is always in the detail, in the actual implementation of a system that works. And most of these only become clear once you start working on it and try to implement it. How does it all work together - do you actually end up with a game, will there be any actual choices made.
If you compare the old exploration missions with the DOFF system for example.
A "Scan 5" mission is essentialy going in a line to each scan object. There is no real meaningful choice. If there is a combat somewhere on the map, you can try to evade it (if the mission objectivces allow it), and if you actually enter combat, you have plenty of choices on what powers you use, when to use them, how to maneuver and all that. But if you just boil it down to the non-combat part, it's visit 5 points and no decision points.
The DOFF system is really simplistic. It's just a simple interface, no fancy maps. But - you have to decide on which duty officers to send on which mission. Do you optimze for Success or Critical Chance? Did you consider that if you send your best Astrometics Officer on Mission X, you won't have him for Mission Y? Is X rewarding enough, or should you use a worse officer so you can spend your best officer on Mission Y? Also, you will need to spend a Duty Officer Assignment slot on that mission - should you do that, or is there a better mission to fill it?
From a game point of view, it has a lot more choices.
How do you get this into an exploration system? What resources do you need to manage (and if it's merely opportunity cost), what choices do you need to make?
If there aren't any choices, you end up with "Scan 5 Objectives" and people will feel unfulfilled by it.
I said the following in reply to a different post, but I find that it applies just as much to yours:
I think there are 2 different types of exploration: exploring the environment, and some specific storyline involving a new species. For the latter, I actually think the Defari arc is a great example, and this is something that obviously couldn't be randomized. However environmental and planetary exploration could be randomized, and have plenty of visual variety. Sure, you may not want to do it all day long, but just having a daily of exploring some new system/planet would be fun to me, and provide some variety of gameplay that doesn't involve combat.
I said the following in reply to a different post, but I find that it applies just as much to yours:
I think there are 2 different types of exploration: exploring the environment, and some specific storyline involving a new species. For the latter, I actually think the Defari arc is a great example, and this is something that obviously couldn't be randomized. However environmental and planetary exploration could be randomized, and have plenty of visual variety. Sure, you may not want to do it all day long, but just having a daily of exploring some new system/planet would be fun to me, and provide some variety of gameplay that doesn't involve combat.
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I believe that would be too little pay off for too much work.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think Season 11 will be a good one. We will do more with the Tholians and the mirror. To look into more on what we saw on Nukura. And like the idea how each story will last about a year at a time. Instead of dragging it out for years. This way you get something new faster.
Best part is, we can finally get Season 10 over with. How they handled the Iconian Fiasco is horrible. Later when my KDF and Romulan goes through it. By then Season 11 will be here. And I can just zip through it just to get it out of my way. Might even skip some too.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Yeah, I do have to agree that getting past Season 10 can only be an improvement. I enjoy Tholian and mirror content, too. Hopefully the space battlezone will be good.
Note: I didnt realize you were the same GrandNagus from SFC3.
At the very end of my modding I actually made a "Star Trek Online" mod for SFC3. It was hosted on filefront, which is gone now, but this is the only place I could still find it on the net when I just searched:
As you can see, this mod was made before STO even came out, so I took some creative license with the storyline as I was not sure what STO's storyline was at that point beyond some vague details. I also made several updates adding more ships to each faction, but that is all lost on filefront =P
Ah, i wasn't aware that dynaverse.net was still up. I am not surprised that you came up with what you did, i remember you very well in the former modding community.
What do you think about the possibility of implementing that of a territory system within STO itself? I think it could certainly work very well, along with what you had stated in regards to how an exploration system could potentially work but it seems alot like the territory system from SFC3. Id really like to know even the thoughts on the devs, heck they could allow the foundry community create some great territory system for said campaigns.
In another area, in regards to exploration id love to hear some different ideas and ways it could be implemented. I am skeptical that an effective exploration system can or could be implemented that would overall satisfy an majority of the community. I dont say that out of despite in any manner, but i am skeptical because the game overall has become an PvE nightmare when it comes to endless grind-fest that it has become. While the story-line has been great, along with the star-base system they are still stand alone hollow pieces within the game itself that has nothing to explore or expand on the game other than the foundry system and even that is pigeon hollowed unfortunately.
Someone mentioned someone had an idea as it relates to how Eve Online operates or the massive exploration system, however it has one of the largest universes that has an endless exploration system. While STO has perhaps one of the smallest universes in the MMO genre which is unfortunately disappointing when it could be very deep, again it is the fault that the overall game itself is shallow and hollow on many levels and i think many things can really bring a REAL depth to the overall game through an exploration system and a territory system IF implemented correctly. STO can only be as good as it programmers, which i believe in the last year they have improved upon that side greatly.
Commander Shran - You tell Archer, that is three the pink skin owes me!
A Star Trek game that does not have any kind of exploration system.
Just let that sink in
I have yet to play a Star Trek game that had an exploration system.
Starfleet Command
Starfleet Command 2: Empires at War
Starfleet Command 3
Bridge Commander
New Worlds
Deep Space 9: The Fallen
Star Trek Armada
Star Trek Armada 2
The Dominion War
Elite Force
Elite Force 2
Star Trek Legacy
Why do people act as if STO is the only Star Trek game to feature heavy combat?
I've come to the conclusion in my own head that anything They add to the game at this point is a plus.
It may not be exactly what I want or even care to play, but at least it keeps the game viable.
And since it's the only Trek MMO available, I'm happy to see that They are still have long range plans which will hopefully let me play this game for a decade or more.
I actually liked the old Exploration system for what it was.
It wasn't something spectacular and was certainly lacking, but it was a nice change of pace and if one used ones imagination a bit, you could play out your own semi-unscripted Trek episode.
>shrug<
The old explorations system was misnamed(probably intentionally so they could say STO had "exploration"). In reality, the star cluster missions were 99% patrols. Patrol this system, and destroy these enemy ships(or NPCs on a planet). The rare 1% that actually WAS exploration was when you were simply flying around a planet scanning anomalies, or running around a planet scanning weird alien artifacts. It obviously wasn't very exciting, but there was a tiny bit of real exploration in those star clusters.
indeed, and some environments were very nice; plants, hills, etc. personally i liked to discover these planets with my boffs, i had even made screenshots like a tourist. not exciting, but funny.
A Star Trek game that does not have any kind of exploration system.
Just let that sink in
I have yet to play a Star Trek game that had an exploration system.
Starfleet Command
Starfleet Command 2: Empires at War
Starfleet Command 3
Bridge Commander
New Worlds
Deep Space 9: The Fallen
Star Trek Armada
Star Trek Armada 2
The Dominion War
Elite Force
Elite Force 2
Star Trek Legacy
Why do people act as if STO is the only Star Trek game to feature heavy combat?
However, if you look at the SFC series it had other elements that could be considered an early version of an exploration system. Example, SFC3 had a territory system, that system in essence was or could be considered an exploration system within the greater territory system.
AS for many of the titles above, yes they might have been heavy combat, however they all had great elements that STO has to a certain degree done or wont even implement to do this day as we have been told, oh the engine cant do that, that is just not true, a game is only as powerful as its programmers. Just as everyone of those titles were heavily Modded, they had teams of 100+ individuals that expanded the games and its survival.
Commander Shran - You tell Archer, that is three the pink skin owes me!
However, if you look at the SFC series it had other elements that could be considered an early version of an exploration system. Example, SFC3 had a territory system, that system in essence was or could be considered an exploration system within the greater territory system.
It wasn't really exploration though, it consisted of conquering territory. I do wish some elements of the SFC games came to STO. I always liked fighting enemies around a Black Hole and tricking them into falling into it. Spacial Anomalies like that should be added to STO.
Birth of the Federation had sort of a exploration system, randomized space maps, but you never actually landed on the planet.
Honestly wondering around random maps doing nothing will get old fast.
Honestly the Foundry missions are better exploration then random exploration maps, you can get things like plot and characters, and no its not random, but we don't have the AI yet capable of contructing a plot or characters worth playing yet.
However, if you look at the SFC series it had other elements that could be considered an early version of an exploration system. Example, SFC3 had a territory system, that system in essence was or could be considered an exploration system within the greater territory system.
It wasn't really exploration though, it consisted of conquering territory. I do wish some elements of the SFC games came to STO. I always liked fighting enemies around a Black Hole and tricking them into falling into it. Spacial Anomalies like that should be added to STO.
Heh, yeah, there were some fun mechanics. You could also push an enemy into an asteroid with a tractor beam. But the main point is, territory control is not exploration, and as fun as SFC may have been, it was only territory control.
Birth of the Federation had sort of a exploration system, randomized space maps, but you never actually landed on the planet.
Honestly wondering around random maps doing nothing will get old fast.
Honestly the Foundry missions are better exploration then random exploration maps, you can get things like plot and characters, and no its not random, but we don't have the AI yet capable of contructing a plot or characters worth playing yet.
I never had the opportunity to play Birth of the Federation however, i knew ppl that did and loved it. Many of these former games had so many great elements and while STO has in its own way brought them into the game, it just doesn't seem to be the same.
However, if you look at the SFC series it had other elements that could be considered an early version of an exploration system. Example, SFC3 had a territory system, that system in essence was or could be considered an exploration system within the greater territory system.
It wasn't really exploration though, it consisted of conquering territory. I do wish some elements of the SFC games came to STO. I always liked fighting enemies around a Black Hole and tricking them into falling into it. Spacial Anomalies like that should be added to STO.
Heh, yeah, there were some fun mechanics. You could also push an enemy into an asteroid with a tractor beam. But the main point is, territory control is not exploration, and as fun as SFC may have been, it was only territory control.
Yes, you are correct but others could see how it could have been or considered an exploration. While it was indeed a territory system, it was an element that has been forgotten in many ways that i think would do wonders for STO.
Commander Shran - You tell Archer, that is three the pink skin owes me!
Yes, you are correct but others could see how it could have been or considered an exploration. While it was indeed a territory system, it was an element that has been forgotten in many ways that i think would do wonders for STO.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you think territory control could be considered exploration, then that means the Dyson battlezones are exploration, because those are territory control maps too. I have a feeling that that is not what 99% of people mean when they refer to "exploration". But again, please clarify if I am misunderstanding.
Yes, you are correct but others could see how it could have been or considered an exploration. While it was indeed a territory system, it was an element that has been forgotten in many ways that i think would do wonders for STO.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you think territory control could be considered exploration, then that means the Dyson battlezones are exploration, because those are territory control maps too. I have a feeling that that is not what 99% of people mean when they refer to "exploration". But again, please clarify if I am misunderstanding.
Gotcha, i see what you mean by that how it wouldn't be considered exploration.
See, i don't see how the battlezones are territory system as they don't play into the over game itself and only affects that area for time, until it resets. Which i find boring and just pointless.
No doubt it is not what 99% of the community wants in terms of an exploration system, but the way Cryptic has conducted itself over the years, they always seem to disappoint in one way or another. Currently, they have some awesome elements in the game that have been introduced here and there that aren't present throughout the game and only isolated to certain areas. Lets hope that Cryptic proves me wrong, i would hope they come up with something robust that plays into the overall game, not a gimmick.
Commander Shran - You tell Archer, that is three the pink skin owes me!
I have yet to play a Star Trek game that had an exploration system.
Starfleet Command
Starfleet Command 2: Empires at War
Starfleet Command 3
Bridge Commander
New Worlds
Deep Space 9: The Fallen
Star Trek Armada
Star Trek Armada 2
The Dominion War
Elite Force
Elite Force 2
Star Trek Legacy
Why do people act as if STO is the only Star Trek game to feature heavy combat?
No Star Trek: Voyager – Elite Force? That was an awesome FPS. So many college nights playing that one online.
Will Star Trek Online ever receive a proper exploration system to replace the one yanked a while back?
We’ve had whiteboard-level discussions on how to create a richer and more expansive exploration system, and we hope to be able to get that design solidified and implemented sometime in the future.
So S11 definitely isn't coming with a new exploration system.
Wasn't the keyword or hashtag for Dawn was exploration. I am loving how they are distorting the facts. I think it's going be more grind, rewards, reputation, and scripted content with enemies at the same level of play.
I have yet to play a Star Trek game that had an exploration system.
Starfleet Command
Starfleet Command 2: Empires at War
Starfleet Command 3
Bridge Commander
New Worlds
Deep Space 9: The Fallen
Star Trek Armada
Star Trek Armada 2
The Dominion War
Elite Force
Elite Force 2
Star Trek Legacy
Why do people act as if STO is the only Star Trek game to feature heavy combat?
No Star Trek: Voyager – Elite Force? That was an awesome FPS. So many college nights playing that one online.
It is on the list, between Dominion War and Legacy.
I can think of one game series that had randomly available maps that were both good, and something you could re-visit. Dragon Quest. More specifically Dragon Quest Monsters 2 and Dragon Quest 9. Both of them had a system that would create a random number seed, then use that to generate a map, and NOT to actually store the entire randomly created map in memory. BUT this was a paint-by-numbers thing. All/most of the art assets were borrowed from other parts of the game, and the visual variety was not the best. But they could have interesting results, or boring results. It was random. My favorite in DQM2 were the zombie themed worlds. Sometimes they would have towns of the undead where you could go inside and talk to skeletons and zombies as if they were regular people. This was intentional AFAIK since the zombies had full character models(well what passed for full models in a Gameboy color game) as well as having the art for the town buildings made to look like a cemetery. You could also find towns with humans, elves and slimes IIRC. Towns were actually a bit rare in Magic Key worlds.
But aside from random themes and a partially random layout... the REAL prize was the monsters you could find and loot. Magic Key worlds had no story beyond "Defeat the evil overlord". I say partially random since the DQM2 system had severe limitations on the way the randomizer worked. Interior maps, whether caves or towers, had a minimum and maximum number of floors, 2-9, IIRC, and were confined to a 4x4 grid. Interiors were broken up into rooms and those formed the 4x4 grid. This had many possible layouts, but that was simply a matter of how the random elements mixed.
Ok, since we're brinstorming here, this is my idea for an exploration system of sorts with somewhat randomized content:
A new quadrant named "unexplored space" is added to the game map.
Inside this new quadrant, all of the systems are named "unexplored system".
When you fly up to a system, you get the option to "explore system".
You then load into a space map with a planet(note that both the texture of the space map itself and the planet texture can be randomized, giving a different visual appearance each time).
You approach the planet, establish orbit, begin launching probes and taking scans.
After all probes are launched and scans are completed, you get a location that would be good for an away team to explore.
When you beam to the ground map, the type of map(forest, jungle, desert, ice, etc) as well as the sky texture could be randomized, giving a different visual appearance each time.
Your objective is to scout the area and take samples and scans of the flora and fauna, similar to New Romulus.
The planet can have various animals running around, with randomized appearances giving a different visual appearance each time. Think hitting the "random" button on the character creator, except with an animal and no clothing.
Some animal groups may be hostile, some may not, meaning you would have to either avoid them or defend yourself if attacked.
After completing your survey and taking various samples, the mission is complete and you file your report to starfleet.
Note that I am not saying this should be the entirety of the exploration system, but simply one component. Also, I am aware there are potential problems with some of the randomization of textures, so there would have to be defined limits of what library is pulled from.
Oh my gosh. I wish I can find one of my old post. I suggested this maybe 2 years ago.
And here in lies part of the problem. What IS exploration?
The history and background of the Federation was steeped in scientific exploration but only as a backdrop to the story. If you strip away all but the television shows and movies you are left with such a small percentage of episodes (if any actually) that ever dealt with pure, scientific, boring, mundane, data gathering, comparison table building, report writing, experiment driven exploration. It was used only as the setup to a larger story to discuss humanity and global issues and an epic fight scene. In that sense STO is full of "exploration":
we've explored the dyson spheres
the undine realm
new quadrants
new species (albeit only one)
demon class planets
wormwholes
and for better or for worse time travel
What I hear from most people's suggestions is a system part scientific exploration (scan this, research that) and part random story based conflict/diplomacy generator that intersect with each other randomly to create that feel of star trek. That is near impossible to do. Heck, Star Trek as a television show isn't even able to sustain that amount of constant story generation or it would still be on the air, we wouldn't have gotten the last season of DS9, Enterprise would have a better story arc aside from the Xindi, Star Trek Renegades wouldn't be a Youtube release and Spock would have never had his brain removed.
A suggestion I made long ago and still stand by is to combine the genesis engine with Foundry missions. The genesis engine would create your basic "exploration" system (scan this, research that) but at some random point during those missions a random Foundry mission would activate relevant to the system you are in to provide the all important endless story driven content a dev cannot be held accountable to constantly provide.
The only meaningful exploration I can see beyond just featured missions containing it, is more places like New Romulus surface and the Dyson sphere space interior was (Which was such a sad waste of potential, no one has much reason to actually explore dyson sphere space except for a few accolades). Expecting more than that is pretty much like expecting a PVP revamp, it can't be done. I'd most like to see something on the scale of a battlezone both in space and ground, which has far less combat going on, only sparse mobs, but many investigative missions you can take in either place with various "worth your time" rewards. Imagine like the Voth battlezone, but with far fewer enemies and more exploratory missions to do.
And here in lies part of the problem. What IS exploration?
The history and background of the Federation was steeped in scientific exploration but only as a backdrop to the story. If you strip away all but the television shows and movies you are left with such a small percentage of episodes (if any actually) that ever dealt with pure, scientific, boring, mundane, data gathering, comparison table building, report writing, experiment driven exploration. It was used only as the setup to a larger story to discuss humanity and global issues and an epic fight scene. In that sense STO is full of "exploration":
we've explored the dyson spheres
the undine realm
new quadrants
new species (albeit only one)
demon class planets
wormwholes
and for better or for worse time travel
What I hear from most people's suggestions is a system part scientific exploration (scan this, research that) and part random story based conflict/diplomacy generator that intersect with each other randomly to create that feel of star trek. That is near impossible to do. Heck, Star Trek as a television show isn't even able to sustain that amount of constant story generation or it would still be on the air, we wouldn't have gotten the last season of DS9, Enterprise would have a better story arc aside from the Xindi, Star Trek Renegades wouldn't be a Youtube release and Spock would have never had his brain removed.
A suggestion I made long ago and still stand by is to combine the genesis engine with Foundry missions. The genesis engine would create your basic "exploration" system (scan this, research that) but at some random point during those missions a random Foundry mission would activate relevant to the system you are in to provide the all important endless story driven content a dev cannot be held accountable to constantly provide.
I think you are failing to understand. If the setup followed as Nagus suggested and something I suggested years ago. The new sector would consist of faction growth based on players making a area per faction. Hell you can throw in Romulans into being able to create independent regions only accessible by Romulans-KDF or Romulans-Fed/
PVE, Queues, and other content can be designed for the sole purpose of attaining territory or regions. You can even setup up a reputation system so fleets can create bases or communities.
If you say, it can't be done. In essence, both combined would hit the very core of Star Trek.
And here in lies part of the problem. What IS exploration?
The history and background of the Federation was steeped in scientific exploration but only as a backdrop to the story. If you strip away all but the television shows and movies you are left with such a small percentage of episodes (if any actually) that ever dealt with pure, scientific, boring, mundane, data gathering, comparison table building, report writing, experiment driven exploration. It was used only as the setup to a larger story to discuss humanity and global issues and an epic fight scene. In that sense STO is full of "exploration":
we've explored the dyson spheres
the undine realm
new quadrants
new species (albeit only one)
demon class planets
wormwholes
and for better or for worse time travel
What I hear from most people's suggestions is a system part scientific exploration (scan this, research that) and part random story based conflict/diplomacy generator that intersect with each other randomly to create that feel of star trek. That is near impossible to do. Heck, Star Trek as a television show isn't even able to sustain that amount of constant story generation or it would still be on the air, we wouldn't have gotten the last season of DS9, Enterprise would have a better story arc aside from the Xindi, Star Trek Renegades wouldn't be a Youtube release and Spock would have never had his brain removed.
A suggestion I made long ago and still stand by is to combine the genesis engine with Foundry missions. The genesis engine would create your basic "exploration" system (scan this, research that) but at some random point during those missions a random Foundry mission would activate relevant to the system you are in to provide the all important endless story driven content a dev cannot be held accountable to constantly provide.
I think you are failing to understand. If the setup followed as Nagus suggested and something I suggested years ago. The new sector would consist of faction growth based on players making a area per faction. Hell you can throw in Romulans into being able to create independent regions only accessible by Romulans-KDF or Romulans-Fed/
PVE, Queues, and other content can be designed for the sole purpose of attaining territory or regions. You can even setup up a reputation system so fleets can create bases or communities.
If you say, it can't be done. In essence, both combined would hit the very core of Star Trek.
I quite understand...that scanning flora and making reports to starfleet is not everyone's definition of exploration. What nagus suggests is not a bad idea, and very much inline with what the exploration clusters used to be (yes they were more battle heavy but that is what levels ships and generally speaking more fun for a video game but there were the scan this, research that variety). Also the engine required to produce an environment random enough to satisfy gamers, trek fans on top of that, is not just a difficult task but one of the unsolved problems of computer science. There has been progress for sure, most notably in the hopefully upcoming game of No Man's Sky which is exactly the kind of technology Nagus is suggesting. But mind you, No Man's Sky is brand spanking new technology never before seen and as of yet unproven.
But even given an endless random world of things to scan - at some point you will break. You will tire. It will become a grind only for the reason that anything repeated enough times no matter how entertaining it started off being will eventually become mundane. Your human mind will quickly become accustom to the computer trickery of procedural generation and in everything once unique you will begin to see the technical pattern. The very core of why using a rigid computational system to appeal to the infinite human brain is such a monumental task. Your brain adapts too well.
The only answer is to provide you something that is truly unique. Another human telling you stories that are unique to their perspective on life. This is not just some flimsy opinion, it is human nature and why story tellers are such gems in our culture. By the very definition of what a computer is it is incapable of providing that level randomness.
It depends on the player point of view. Now couple the suggestion with the Stronghold feature. I would love it.
I know there is the Foundry content but honestly I never been into it. I rather play with players and maybe go to a unexplored sector and doing something that way. Instead of going through someone elses story I rather create my experience and in a way my story I can tell.
But even given an endless random world of things to scan - at some point you will break. You will tire. It will become a grind only for the reason that anything repeated enough times no matter how entertaining it started off being will eventually become mundane. Your human mind will quickly become accustom to the computer trickery of procedural generation and in everything once unique you will begin to see the technical pattern. The very core of why using a rigid computational system to appeal to the infinite human brain is such a monumental task. Your brain adapts too well.
That is true of anything. If you play the same patrol all day long you'll go crazy too. The system I suggested is *not* intended to be an infinite source of unique content that you will never get tired of, it is simply meant to give people something to do every so often that doesnt involve combat like 99% of the game does.
Comments
The thing is - spitballing ideas is comparatively easy, regardless of whether you spend one post or 10 pages on it.
The devil is always in the detail, in the actual implementation of a system that works. And most of these only become clear once you start working on it and try to implement it. How does it all work together - do you actually end up with a game, will there be any actual choices made.
If you compare the old exploration missions with the DOFF system for example.
A "Scan 5" mission is essentialy going in a line to each scan object. There is no real meaningful choice. If there is a combat somewhere on the map, you can try to evade it (if the mission objectivces allow it), and if you actually enter combat, you have plenty of choices on what powers you use, when to use them, how to maneuver and all that. But if you just boil it down to the non-combat part, it's visit 5 points and no decision points.
The DOFF system is really simplistic. It's just a simple interface, no fancy maps. But - you have to decide on which duty officers to send on which mission. Do you optimze for Success or Critical Chance? Did you consider that if you send your best Astrometics Officer on Mission X, you won't have him for Mission Y? Is X rewarding enough, or should you use a worse officer so you can spend your best officer on Mission Y? Also, you will need to spend a Duty Officer Assignment slot on that mission - should you do that, or is there a better mission to fill it?
From a game point of view, it has a lot more choices.
How do you get this into an exploration system? What resources do you need to manage (and if it's merely opportunity cost), what choices do you need to make?
If there aren't any choices, you end up with "Scan 5 Objectives" and people will feel unfulfilled by it.
At the very end of my modding I actually made a "Star Trek Online" mod for SFC3. It was hosted on filefront, which is gone now, but this is the only place I could still find it on the net when I just searched:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163384363.0
As you can see, this mod was made before STO even came out, so I took some creative license with the storyline as I was not sure what STO's storyline was at that point beyond some vague details. I also made several updates adding more ships to each faction, but that is all lost on filefront =P
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I said the following in reply to a different post, but I find that it applies just as much to yours:
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Players: YAY!!!
Cryptic:
[/quote]
I believe that would be too little pay off for too much work.
Best part is, we can finally get Season 10 over with. How they handled the Iconian Fiasco is horrible. Later when my KDF and Romulan goes through it. By then Season 11 will be here. And I can just zip through it just to get it out of my way. Might even skip some too.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Ah, i wasn't aware that dynaverse.net was still up. I am not surprised that you came up with what you did, i remember you very well in the former modding community.
What do you think about the possibility of implementing that of a territory system within STO itself? I think it could certainly work very well, along with what you had stated in regards to how an exploration system could potentially work but it seems alot like the territory system from SFC3. Id really like to know even the thoughts on the devs, heck they could allow the foundry community create some great territory system for said campaigns.
In another area, in regards to exploration id love to hear some different ideas and ways it could be implemented. I am skeptical that an effective exploration system can or could be implemented that would overall satisfy an majority of the community. I dont say that out of despite in any manner, but i am skeptical because the game overall has become an PvE nightmare when it comes to endless grind-fest that it has become. While the story-line has been great, along with the star-base system they are still stand alone hollow pieces within the game itself that has nothing to explore or expand on the game other than the foundry system and even that is pigeon hollowed unfortunately.
Someone mentioned someone had an idea as it relates to how Eve Online operates or the massive exploration system, however it has one of the largest universes that has an endless exploration system. While STO has perhaps one of the smallest universes in the MMO genre which is unfortunately disappointing when it could be very deep, again it is the fault that the overall game itself is shallow and hollow on many levels and i think many things can really bring a REAL depth to the overall game through an exploration system and a territory system IF implemented correctly. STO can only be as good as it programmers, which i believe in the last year they have improved upon that side greatly.
I have yet to play a Star Trek game that had an exploration system.
Starfleet Command
Starfleet Command 2: Empires at War
Starfleet Command 3
Bridge Commander
New Worlds
Deep Space 9: The Fallen
Star Trek Armada
Star Trek Armada 2
The Dominion War
Elite Force
Elite Force 2
Star Trek Legacy
Why do people act as if STO is the only Star Trek game to feature heavy combat?
indeed, and some environments were very nice; plants, hills, etc. personally i liked to discover these planets with my boffs, i had even made screenshots like a tourist. not exciting, but funny.
However, if you look at the SFC series it had other elements that could be considered an early version of an exploration system. Example, SFC3 had a territory system, that system in essence was or could be considered an exploration system within the greater territory system.
AS for many of the titles above, yes they might have been heavy combat, however they all had great elements that STO has to a certain degree done or wont even implement to do this day as we have been told, oh the engine cant do that, that is just not true, a game is only as powerful as its programmers. Just as everyone of those titles were heavily Modded, they had teams of 100+ individuals that expanded the games and its survival.
Lolz, this sounds like the beginning of a joke.....
It wasn't really exploration though, it consisted of conquering territory. I do wish some elements of the SFC games came to STO. I always liked fighting enemies around a Black Hole and tricking them into falling into it. Spacial Anomalies like that should be added to STO.
Honestly wondering around random maps doing nothing will get old fast.
Honestly the Foundry missions are better exploration then random exploration maps, you can get things like plot and characters, and no its not random, but we don't have the AI yet capable of contructing a plot or characters worth playing yet.
Heh, yeah, there were some fun mechanics. You could also push an enemy into an asteroid with a tractor beam. But the main point is, territory control is not exploration, and as fun as SFC may have been, it was only territory control.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I never had the opportunity to play Birth of the Federation however, i knew ppl that did and loved it. Many of these former games had so many great elements and while STO has in its own way brought them into the game, it just doesn't seem to be the same.
Yes, you are correct but others could see how it could have been or considered an exploration. While it was indeed a territory system, it was an element that has been forgotten in many ways that i think would do wonders for STO.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you think territory control could be considered exploration, then that means the Dyson battlezones are exploration, because those are territory control maps too. I have a feeling that that is not what 99% of people mean when they refer to "exploration". But again, please clarify if I am misunderstanding.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Gotcha, i see what you mean by that how it wouldn't be considered exploration.
See, i don't see how the battlezones are territory system as they don't play into the over game itself and only affects that area for time, until it resets. Which i find boring and just pointless.
No doubt it is not what 99% of the community wants in terms of an exploration system, but the way Cryptic has conducted itself over the years, they always seem to disappoint in one way or another. Currently, they have some awesome elements in the game that have been introduced here and there that aren't present throughout the game and only isolated to certain areas. Lets hope that Cryptic proves me wrong, i would hope they come up with something robust that plays into the overall game, not a gimmick.
No Star Trek: Voyager – Elite Force? That was an awesome FPS. So many college nights playing that one online.
Wasn't the keyword or hashtag for Dawn was exploration. I am loving how they are distorting the facts. I think it's going be more grind, rewards, reputation, and scripted content with enemies at the same level of play.
Pew pew CCA in 30 seconds.
It is on the list, between Dominion War and Legacy.
I can think of one game series that had randomly available maps that were both good, and something you could re-visit. Dragon Quest. More specifically Dragon Quest Monsters 2 and Dragon Quest 9. Both of them had a system that would create a random number seed, then use that to generate a map, and NOT to actually store the entire randomly created map in memory. BUT this was a paint-by-numbers thing. All/most of the art assets were borrowed from other parts of the game, and the visual variety was not the best. But they could have interesting results, or boring results. It was random. My favorite in DQM2 were the zombie themed worlds. Sometimes they would have towns of the undead where you could go inside and talk to skeletons and zombies as if they were regular people. This was intentional AFAIK since the zombies had full character models(well what passed for full models in a Gameboy color game) as well as having the art for the town buildings made to look like a cemetery. You could also find towns with humans, elves and slimes IIRC. Towns were actually a bit rare in Magic Key worlds.
But aside from random themes and a partially random layout... the REAL prize was the monsters you could find and loot. Magic Key worlds had no story beyond "Defeat the evil overlord". I say partially random since the DQM2 system had severe limitations on the way the randomizer worked. Interior maps, whether caves or towers, had a minimum and maximum number of floors, 2-9, IIRC, and were confined to a 4x4 grid. Interiors were broken up into rooms and those formed the 4x4 grid. This had many possible layouts, but that was simply a matter of how the random elements mixed.
My character Tsin'xing
Oh my gosh. I wish I can find one of my old post. I suggested this maybe 2 years ago.
The history and background of the Federation was steeped in scientific exploration but only as a backdrop to the story. If you strip away all but the television shows and movies you are left with such a small percentage of episodes (if any actually) that ever dealt with pure, scientific, boring, mundane, data gathering, comparison table building, report writing, experiment driven exploration. It was used only as the setup to a larger story to discuss humanity and global issues and an epic fight scene. In that sense STO is full of "exploration":
we've explored the dyson spheres
the undine realm
new quadrants
new species (albeit only one)
demon class planets
wormwholes
and for better or for worse time travel
What I hear from most people's suggestions is a system part scientific exploration (scan this, research that) and part random story based conflict/diplomacy generator that intersect with each other randomly to create that feel of star trek. That is near impossible to do. Heck, Star Trek as a television show isn't even able to sustain that amount of constant story generation or it would still be on the air, we wouldn't have gotten the last season of DS9, Enterprise would have a better story arc aside from the Xindi, Star Trek Renegades wouldn't be a Youtube release and Spock would have never had his brain removed.
A suggestion I made long ago and still stand by is to combine the genesis engine with Foundry missions. The genesis engine would create your basic "exploration" system (scan this, research that) but at some random point during those missions a random Foundry mission would activate relevant to the system you are in to provide the all important endless story driven content a dev cannot be held accountable to constantly provide.
I think you are failing to understand. If the setup followed as Nagus suggested and something I suggested years ago. The new sector would consist of faction growth based on players making a area per faction. Hell you can throw in Romulans into being able to create independent regions only accessible by Romulans-KDF or Romulans-Fed/
PVE, Queues, and other content can be designed for the sole purpose of attaining territory or regions. You can even setup up a reputation system so fleets can create bases or communities.
If you say, it can't be done. In essence, both combined would hit the very core of Star Trek.
I quite understand...that scanning flora and making reports to starfleet is not everyone's definition of exploration. What nagus suggests is not a bad idea, and very much inline with what the exploration clusters used to be (yes they were more battle heavy but that is what levels ships and generally speaking more fun for a video game but there were the scan this, research that variety). Also the engine required to produce an environment random enough to satisfy gamers, trek fans on top of that, is not just a difficult task but one of the unsolved problems of computer science. There has been progress for sure, most notably in the hopefully upcoming game of No Man's Sky which is exactly the kind of technology Nagus is suggesting. But mind you, No Man's Sky is brand spanking new technology never before seen and as of yet unproven.
But even given an endless random world of things to scan - at some point you will break. You will tire. It will become a grind only for the reason that anything repeated enough times no matter how entertaining it started off being will eventually become mundane. Your human mind will quickly become accustom to the computer trickery of procedural generation and in everything once unique you will begin to see the technical pattern. The very core of why using a rigid computational system to appeal to the infinite human brain is such a monumental task. Your brain adapts too well.
The only answer is to provide you something that is truly unique. Another human telling you stories that are unique to their perspective on life. This is not just some flimsy opinion, it is human nature and why story tellers are such gems in our culture. By the very definition of what a computer is it is incapable of providing that level randomness.
I know there is the Foundry content but honestly I never been into it. I rather play with players and maybe go to a unexplored sector and doing something that way. Instead of going through someone elses story I rather create my experience and in a way my story I can tell.
That is true of anything. If you play the same patrol all day long you'll go crazy too. The system I suggested is *not* intended to be an infinite source of unique content that you will never get tired of, it is simply meant to give people something to do every so often that doesnt involve combat like 99% of the game does.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008