Why would they attack the Federation of another timeline and not their own?
The Sphere Builders could see potentials, not literally intervene in other timelines. If they could then their reach would be infinite as would their potential for success
Because it was their own. they were trying to prevent the Federation from ever existing as to prevent them from being able to use the Krenim weapon to cause the temporal incursion that trapped them in their realm to begin with.
Yeah, it's a predestination paradox of a sort, but that's what you get for mucking with time. Also... no one in Ent said what era the Sphere builders lived in, merely what era they created the Expanse.
No it isn't.
It's like saying that you used a time machine to make a previously innocent Lee Harvey Oswald assassinate JFK, while already having lived in a timeline where JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald.
That is cheating and lazy writing of the lowest order.
But...
If one accepts that Alternate Timelines exist...
Then what you described is totally possible.
And we already know that in STO's story line (which includes the buildup to the Star Trek IX movie plot),
Alternate Timelines exist.
If that's lazy writing, then all of the Trek incarnations are guilty of it, which means it's just a standard plot motivation for the Trek Universe and the game.
<shrug>
No no no no no!
You're missing my entire point, which is that it cannot happen in the same timeline!
What I describe, and the origin of the Sphere Builders in this context can only happen in alternate timelines, but Cryptic's story would have us believe it happened in the original timeline, which is i possible.
Going back to my analogy, you cannot both have Lee Harvey Oswald live to be an old man who never murdered anyone and have him be the man who killed JFK and was himself murdered shortly thereafter in the same timeline, which is exactly the case if the idea that the Tuterians and Sphere Builders are the same.
The problem with the Tuterians being the Sphere Builders is the way Krenim incursion technology works.
It's not that they existed up to a point and were then changed after we met them, it's that somehow the Tuterians were never in the position they were in when we met Clauda and instead became the Sphere Builders ( if this idea is true).
That means that the timeline in which me met Clauda, the timeline we've been playing in up to now, COULD NOT HAVE Sphere Builders, and we know they do because of references made in game.
It's hard to explain, but it's a complete failure of understanding cause and effect on the most fundamental level.
You're forgetting that anyone inside a temporal shield isn't affected by the krenim temporal incursion weapon. Because it changes the entire timeline past, present, and future when the removed object is deleted from existence, at any point in the timeline when one of clauda's race is protected by a temporal shield they wouldn't have been changed like the rest of her species when they used the weapon. Since her race is obviously already developing temporal technology (as evidenced by her presence on the krenim timeship) it's very likely that in the future there are more of her people on timeships protected by temporal shielding. When they see the timeline change and their race is suddenly assimilated by the Borg in this new timeline, they will likely be out for revenge. Which is why this isn't a bad idea for the origin of the sphere builders. It explains a number of things - such as the sphere builder's advanced technology, why they can't exist inside our dimension, their ability to predict changes in the timeline, and why they would specifically target earth.
That's utterly asinine; temporal shielding doesn't work retroactively. They simply would not exist in a timeline where the Tuterians are fine because the incursion hasn't happened yet, and when it has that timeline is gone.
Also, did you not watch ENT? It explains the Sphere Builders' motives perfectly well - the Federation is destined to defeat them in the 26th century. Blowing up Earth was an attempt to prevent that.
Time travel is always a tricky subject. One thing we have to remember is that time is not in a straight line. I think time is more like several balls of Christmas tree lights all tangled together in a box. Things will all be tangled and connected in the strangest places and the more you try to unravel it, the more stubborn and convoluted it gets. I also don't believe that threads in time are erased in the traditional sense. I mean if the timeline is changed and they go back to fix it, then that alternate universe doesn't magically disappear. I know they often imply that's what happens but I have to disagree with it. I'll try to provide examples.
Remember when the Voyager was part of a temporal explosion which completely destroyed the Solar System in the 29th century? After a fight in 1996, the Voyager crew was able to prevent that entire incident from happening. However there were certain things which had to continue to exist for various reasons. For one thing, if the Solar System was never destroyed, then Braxton wouldn't have attempted to destroy Voyager. If Voyager didn't resist his attack and the Aeon never went back in time, then there would be no technological boom which gives us our computers today. Elements of that timeline must still exist. The Doctor kept his mobile emitter as well, which means that despite the fact the timeline was changed, they still remember its existence. It's more like the timeline was adjusted, more than it was "erased".
This example is brought up again later when Captain Braxton attempts to destroy the Voyager because they ruined his life. In that episode we see Braxton arrested before he went nuts and yet they still had to deal with Braxton who went nuts. Then after they arrested him a second time after he planted the bomb, they went back and arrested him a third time before he ever planted the bomb. You would think that stopping one Braxton could stop them all, but it's not as easy as erasing parts of time. Instead, every action you take creates different threads which continue to exist and be cataloged. While Janeway was ready to curl up in a fetal position after thinking about time, it's clear that 29th century Starfleet has a better grasp of this concept and they can apparently rejoin or "reintegrate" all these different Braxtons.
Another interesting thing to think about is how one timeline can still be heavily influenced by another. Well, technically I explained that above with the whole Aeon influencing 20th century tech even though the Aeon should never have gone back in time to begin with thing. But another example can be found in the new movies. The Alternate Universe was created in 2233 which means that Star Trek: Enterprise is identical for both the Prime and Alternate universes. Despite the fact that the Alternate Universe would have a completely different 24th century by the time it gets there, the Alternate Universes's past is still influenced by the Prime Universes's 24th century. The Enterprise-E went back in time and destroyed a Borg vessel and assisted humanity's first warp flight. Cochrane's logs of this event still exist in the Alternate Universe, as does the NX-01 fighting remnants of that Prime Borg Sphere. Major events like this are interwoven through both timelines.
Now if I haven't lost anybody, you might be wondering how this ties into what's happening now. Well someone pointed out that the Sphere Builders were mentioned in the timeline where the Tuterians were still a normal people. This doesn't change anything however because the Sphere Builders exist out of time so there is no reason why they couldn't exist in the same universe at the same time. Think of it like Braxton hunting for the guy who destroys Voyager, only to discover that it was him from the future trying to do so. The Tuterians might have been living peacefully as a corporeal species during the events of Enterprise but their future selves still tried to destroy the humans in the 22nd Century. They can't really help that anymore than Braxton could.
I believe this means that the Tuterians existing before and after the temporal incursion means both are still technically the Prime Universe. Everything just had to come full circle in order for it to work. The Tuterians existed as normal people at the same time the Sphere Builders attempted to destroy Earth, but the Tuterians had to be "displaced" in time by our actions in order for all of that to happen to begin with. It's not so much as an alternate universe or anything like that but everything simply coming full circle.
Whats going to happen is that the Tuterians' research into Solanae tech trapped them in the trans-dimensional realm we see them living in in Enterprise. This realm gives them the ability to see through various time-streams, and from that, they learn the Federation was behind their situation in the first place, via their use of the Krenim weapon. After finding this out, the Tuterians, now Sphere Builders, use their trans-dimensional realm to attack the Federation in the past, as seen in Enterprise.
Except that's ridiculous. If they can see and communicate through time, then why not just warn the Federation about using the Krenim weapon? Quite clearly the weapon wasn't being used to deliberately shaft them on purpose.
It may be obvious to us, but it might not be obvious to them.
Tuterians? Sphere builders from Enterprise? I had some hope for a new dawn for "A New Dawn" but it seems like more of the same, and may simply be time for me to get a life.
The problem with the Tuterians being the Sphere Builders is the way Krenim incursion technology works.
It's not that they existed up to a point and were then changed after we met them, it's that somehow the Tuterians were never in the position they were in when we met Clauda and instead became the Sphere Builders ( if this idea is true).
That means that the timeline in which me met Clauda, the timeline we've been playing in up to now, COULD NOT HAVE Sphere Builders, and we know they do because of references made in game.
It's hard to explain, but it's a complete failure of understanding cause and effect on the most fundamental level.
You're forgetting that anyone inside a temporal shield isn't affected by the krenim temporal incursion weapon. Because it changes the entire timeline past, present, and future when the removed object is deleted from existence, at any point in the timeline when one of clauda's race is protected by a temporal shield they wouldn't have been changed like the rest of her species when they used the weapon. Since her race is obviously already developing temporal technology (as evidenced by her presence on the krenim timeship) it's very likely that in the future there are more of her people on timeships protected by temporal shielding. When they see the timeline change and their race is suddenly assimilated by the Borg in this new timeline, they will likely be out for revenge. Which is why this isn't a bad idea for the origin of the sphere builders. It explains a number of things - such as the sphere builder's advanced technology, why they can't exist inside our dimension, their ability to predict changes in the timeline, and why they would specifically target earth.
That's utterly asinine; temporal shielding doesn't work retroactively. They simply would not exist in a timeline where the Tuterians are fine because the incursion hasn't happened yet, and when it has that timeline is gone.
Also, did you not watch ENT? It explains the Sphere Builders' motives perfectly well - the Federation is destined to defeat them in the 26th century. Blowing up Earth was an attempt to prevent that.
Of course it works retroactively. Temporal shielding either protects you from changes in the timeline, or it doesn't. By it's very nature it's not going to matter what time a temporal incursion happens. The incursion could happen 1000 years ago or 1000 years in the future - if your temporal shielding is up, changes in the timeline aren't going to affect you.
Otherwise it wouldn't be possible for Wells timeships in the future to correct mistakes in the past, like we saw during the Tholian mission were we got the Ambassador cruiser. Without temporal shielding working like this, the timeline would be locked in place every time it gets changed by someone, and no timeship would be able to stop it.
Tuterians? Sphere builders from Enterprise? I had some hope for a new dawn for "A New Dawn" but it seems like more of the same, and may simply be time for me to get a life.
If you are like me you can't wait for Nov 10 to make that a reality.
The Solanae themselves being trapped in subspace doesn't change anything about the idea that people who tried to adapt their tech got themselves stuck in a trans-dimensional realm.
Obviously the Tuterians weren't making Dyson spheres like the Solanae were, thus the accident that caused the Tuterians to be trapped in their realm would have had different results then the accident the Solanae suffered, since they weren't trying to do the exact same thing.
I hate to get technical again, but the Solanae are not "trapped" in subspace. They live in subspace. Their molecular structure is only sustainable in subspace. It's a plot stretch to say they now have some special technology (or altered tech) capable of opening portals to an area that is outside all other dimensions.
The Solanae themselves being trapped in subspace doesn't change anything about the idea that people who tried to adapt their tech got themselves stuck in a trans-dimensional realm.
Obviously the Tuterians weren't making Dyson spheres like the Solanae were, thus the accident that caused the Tuterians to be trapped in their realm would have had different results then the accident the Solanae suffered, since they weren't trying to do the exact same thing.
I hate to get technical again, but the Solanae are not "trapped" in subspace. They live in subspace. Their molecular structure is only sustainable in subspace. It's a plot stretch to say they now have some special technology (or altered tech) capable of opening portals to an area that is outside all other dimensions.
Actually it would seem they are trapped. It's revealed in the game that there was an industrial accident in the Solanae Dyson's Sphere which resulted in them no longer being able to exist in our realm. This is learned by Nelen Exil in "Unsafe Practices".
I hate to get technical again, but the Solanae are not "trapped" in subspace. They live in subspace. Their molecular structure is only sustainable in subspace. It's a plot stretch to say they now have some special technology (or altered tech) capable of opening portals to an area that is outside all other dimensions.
Not to sound rude.... but did you actually play the game?
Its outright stated that the Solanae are trapped in subspace, because the Dyson sphere accident altered their genetic makeup to the point that they can only exist in subspace. They are trapped because they cannot return to, and live in, the realm they originally did, which is normal space.
And again, no one is saying they have the tech to do that. Its being suggested that the Tuterians suffered a similar accident, which forced them into the realm they live in in Enterprise.
The Solanae DO have the tech to return to normal space in a limited fashion. But as you said, their molecular structure dissolves if their tech fails.
What if it's the other way around and we started off in a timeline OTHER than the prime timeline, but very similar? NOT the one we've been playing in all the rest of the time.
Instead, it's in the prime timeline where we receive the shielded core showing us that another version of ourselves made an incursion attempt and failed...meaning only the final scene of the mission takes place in the same timeline as the whole rest of the game. Consider the rest of the mission the dream, and only the final scene the reality
Ultimately possible, but largely ends up being semantics due to how it all plays out.
Personally I do think it makes a difference, since the idea that the bulk of the mission did not take place in the continuity our character has been in in all other missions removes the problems that arise if we have to think that the Temporal Cold War never happened for our characters yet their history was somehow entirely the same even without it. If only the final scene is in continuity with the rest of the game, it makes more sense IMO. (Note: We actually saw something similar, though not quite exact, in "Temporal Ambassador.")
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Not to sound rude.... but did you actually play the game?
Its outright stated that the Solanae are trapped in subspace, because the Dyson sphere accident altered their genetic makeup to the point that they can only exist in subspace. They are trapped because they cannot return to, and live in, the realm they originally did, which is normal space.
And again, no one is saying they have the tech to do that. Its being suggested that the Tuterians suffered a similar accident, which forced them into the realm they live in in Enterprise.
After going back and rewatching the Nelen Exil stuff, Cryptic totally retconned it to fit their bad writing. Now they will do the same thing for the sphere builders. So much for S11...
It may be obvious to us, but it might not be obvious to them.
How could it not be obvious to them if they can see and communicate with any point in time? If they can do that, they can see why the weapon was built and why it was used.
This is what happens with crappy story writing.
They are not omniscient. They may have abilities we don't, but they have limits.
After going back and rewatching the Nelen Exil stuff, Cryptic totally retconned it to fit their bad writing. Now they will do the same thing for the sphere builders. So much for S11...
Do you even know what a retcon is? They can't retcon something that was never established in the first place.
It was never established WHY the Solanae lived in subspace in the TV show, so they can't retcon them by establishing something that was never established.
I swear, you knee-jerk reactionaries will make up anything to hate on Cryptic.
There was a point in the 80s (I read old fan newsletters and comic book letter columns) when the term was a "retro-con" and it was inclusive of ANY flashback that revealed new information, even if it didn't contradict everything. And fan attitudes on the practice ranged from a LOVE of retro-cons or retcons to a general disinterest and tendency to consider them meaningless.
They are not omniscient. They may have abilities we don't, but they have limits.
They don't have to be omniscient. If they are able to see through various time streams, as the post I had originally replied to suggested, they would be able to see when the weapon was created and more importantly, why it was created.
Daniels specifically said that their ability to see things across time was limited and myopic. They only knew the basic details of what would happen, not the fine points of why.
They are not omniscient. They may have abilities we don't, but they have limits.
They don't have to be omniscient. If they are able to see through various time streams, as the post I had originally replied to suggested, they would be able to see when the weapon was created and more importantly, why it was created.
Daniels specifically said that their ability to see things across time was limited and myopic. They only knew the basic details of what would happen, not the fine points of why.
Maybe it's myopic in that they're obsessed with how they got there.
How could it not be obvious to them if they can see and communicate with any point in time? If they can do that, they can see why the weapon was built and why it was used.
This is what happens with crappy story writing.
Or maybe... they don't care.
Ever thought about that? That maybe all of this pushed the few that "escaped" a teeny weeny bit over the edge?
That they cannot see clearly? That they cannot see reason? That they cannot see logic?
Why do you think they would just shrug and be all like "Meh, s**t happens!"?
They are not omniscient. They may have abilities we don't, but they have limits.
They don't have to be omniscient. If they are able to see through various time streams, as the post I had originally replied to suggested, they would be able to see when the weapon was created and more importantly, why it was created.
Daniels specifically said that their ability to see things across time was limited and myopic. They only knew the basic details of what would happen, not the fine points of why.
Maybe it's myopic in that they're obsessed with how they got there.
Daniels was specific in that their vision across time became blurry the farther across time they tried to look. It was physically impossible for them to see far-off events clearly.
That would imply they are creatures of pure logic, and didn't let any sort of emotion effect their judgement.
The Iconians know exactly why the other races rose up against them, did that stop them for claiming revenge and trying to subjugate races that had nothing o do with their destruction in the first place? Nope.
Do you really think the sphere builders would just go "ohh well, our bad!" and accept it? Hell no they wouldn't. They would make up any rationalization about how it was someone else's fault.
Of course they wouldn't just shrug their shoulders and move on. Never said they should. They could, however, attempt to find a more peaceful means of preventing those events from happening.
Daniels specifically said that their ability to see things across time was limited and myopic. They only knew the basic details of what would happen, not the fine points of why.
Yes I know, and as I said before, it's crappy writing IMO.
how is giving characters in universe limitations crappy writing?
That would imply they are creatures of pure logic, and didn't let any sort of emotion effect their judgement.
The Iconians know exactly why the other races rose up against them, did that stop them for claiming revenge and trying to subjugate races that had nothing o do with their destruction in the first place? Nope.
Do you really think the sphere builders would just go "ohh well, our bad!" and accept it? Hell no they wouldn't. They would make up any rationalization about how it was someone else's fault.
Of course they wouldn't just shrug their shoulders and move on. Never said they should. They could, however, attempt to find a more peaceful means of preventing those events from happening.
Daniels specifically said that their ability to see things across time was limited and myopic. They only knew the basic details of what would happen, not the fine points of why.
Yes I know, and as I said before, it's crappy writing IMO.
how is giving characters in universe limitations crappy writing?
Probably because it dosen't fit into how he wants to understand things.
We all do it every now and then...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Comments
No no no no no!
You're missing my entire point, which is that it cannot happen in the same timeline!
What I describe, and the origin of the Sphere Builders in this context can only happen in alternate timelines, but Cryptic's story would have us believe it happened in the original timeline, which is i possible.
Going back to my analogy, you cannot both have Lee Harvey Oswald live to be an old man who never murdered anyone and have him be the man who killed JFK and was himself murdered shortly thereafter in the same timeline, which is exactly the case if the idea that the Tuterians and Sphere Builders are the same.
That's utterly asinine; temporal shielding doesn't work retroactively. They simply would not exist in a timeline where the Tuterians are fine because the incursion hasn't happened yet, and when it has that timeline is gone.
Also, did you not watch ENT? It explains the Sphere Builders' motives perfectly well - the Federation is destined to defeat them in the 26th century. Blowing up Earth was an attempt to prevent that.
Remember when the Voyager was part of a temporal explosion which completely destroyed the Solar System in the 29th century? After a fight in 1996, the Voyager crew was able to prevent that entire incident from happening. However there were certain things which had to continue to exist for various reasons. For one thing, if the Solar System was never destroyed, then Braxton wouldn't have attempted to destroy Voyager. If Voyager didn't resist his attack and the Aeon never went back in time, then there would be no technological boom which gives us our computers today. Elements of that timeline must still exist. The Doctor kept his mobile emitter as well, which means that despite the fact the timeline was changed, they still remember its existence. It's more like the timeline was adjusted, more than it was "erased".
This example is brought up again later when Captain Braxton attempts to destroy the Voyager because they ruined his life. In that episode we see Braxton arrested before he went nuts and yet they still had to deal with Braxton who went nuts. Then after they arrested him a second time after he planted the bomb, they went back and arrested him a third time before he ever planted the bomb. You would think that stopping one Braxton could stop them all, but it's not as easy as erasing parts of time. Instead, every action you take creates different threads which continue to exist and be cataloged. While Janeway was ready to curl up in a fetal position after thinking about time, it's clear that 29th century Starfleet has a better grasp of this concept and they can apparently rejoin or "reintegrate" all these different Braxtons.
Another interesting thing to think about is how one timeline can still be heavily influenced by another. Well, technically I explained that above with the whole Aeon influencing 20th century tech even though the Aeon should never have gone back in time to begin with thing. But another example can be found in the new movies. The Alternate Universe was created in 2233 which means that Star Trek: Enterprise is identical for both the Prime and Alternate universes. Despite the fact that the Alternate Universe would have a completely different 24th century by the time it gets there, the Alternate Universes's past is still influenced by the Prime Universes's 24th century. The Enterprise-E went back in time and destroyed a Borg vessel and assisted humanity's first warp flight. Cochrane's logs of this event still exist in the Alternate Universe, as does the NX-01 fighting remnants of that Prime Borg Sphere. Major events like this are interwoven through both timelines.
Now if I haven't lost anybody, you might be wondering how this ties into what's happening now. Well someone pointed out that the Sphere Builders were mentioned in the timeline where the Tuterians were still a normal people. This doesn't change anything however because the Sphere Builders exist out of time so there is no reason why they couldn't exist in the same universe at the same time. Think of it like Braxton hunting for the guy who destroys Voyager, only to discover that it was him from the future trying to do so. The Tuterians might have been living peacefully as a corporeal species during the events of Enterprise but their future selves still tried to destroy the humans in the 22nd Century. They can't really help that anymore than Braxton could.
I believe this means that the Tuterians existing before and after the temporal incursion means both are still technically the Prime Universe. Everything just had to come full circle in order for it to work. The Tuterians existed as normal people at the same time the Sphere Builders attempted to destroy Earth, but the Tuterians had to be "displaced" in time by our actions in order for all of that to happen to begin with. It's not so much as an alternate universe or anything like that but everything simply coming full circle.
My character Tsin'xing
Of course it works retroactively. Temporal shielding either protects you from changes in the timeline, or it doesn't. By it's very nature it's not going to matter what time a temporal incursion happens. The incursion could happen 1000 years ago or 1000 years in the future - if your temporal shielding is up, changes in the timeline aren't going to affect you.
Otherwise it wouldn't be possible for Wells timeships in the future to correct mistakes in the past, like we saw during the Tholian mission were we got the Ambassador cruiser. Without temporal shielding working like this, the timeline would be locked in place every time it gets changed by someone, and no timeship would be able to stop it.
If you are like me you can't wait for Nov 10 to make that a reality.
Actually it would seem they are trapped. It's revealed in the game that there was an industrial accident in the Solanae Dyson's Sphere which resulted in them no longer being able to exist in our realm. This is learned by Nelen Exil in "Unsafe Practices".
My character Tsin'xing
Personally I do think it makes a difference, since the idea that the bulk of the mission did not take place in the continuity our character has been in in all other missions removes the problems that arise if we have to think that the Temporal Cold War never happened for our characters yet their history was somehow entirely the same even without it. If only the final scene is in continuity with the rest of the game, it makes more sense IMO. (Note: We actually saw something similar, though not quite exact, in "Temporal Ambassador.")
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
My character Tsin'xing
There was a point in the 80s (I read old fan newsletters and comic book letter columns) when the term was a "retro-con" and it was inclusive of ANY flashback that revealed new information, even if it didn't contradict everything. And fan attitudes on the practice ranged from a LOVE of retro-cons or retcons to a general disinterest and tendency to consider them meaningless.
Not in this timeline anyway. ;-)
My character Tsin'xing
Maybe it's myopic in that they're obsessed with how they got there.
Or maybe... they don't care.
Ever thought about that? That maybe all of this pushed the few that "escaped" a teeny weeny bit over the edge?
That they cannot see clearly? That they cannot see reason? That they cannot see logic?
Why do you think they would just shrug and be all like "Meh, s**t happens!"?
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Probably because it dosen't fit into how he wants to understand things.
We all do it every now and then...