how is giving characters in universe limitations crappy writing?
For a few reasons.
First, their limitations don't make sense. They "can't see far off events", yet seemed to have no problems seeing the war in the 26th century - which isn't all that far from 2410 - yet they can communicate with events farther in the past. It doesn't make sense.
Second, Daniels seemed to have no issues understanding events across a wide breadth of time and also appeared to have all kinds of evidence of how and why events unfolded the way they did. If he knew they would be causing issues, why wouldn't he try to communicate with them and explain what happened?
Sorry, I just don't care for the whole arc from Enterprise and here in STO.
Well firstly, Daniels has no trouble because he's from so ridiculously far in the future compared to these guys. Even if they exist outside of our universe they still have to use technology to get into it and to look into its past. They're not as advanced and so their vision into the past is fuzzier because it takes more energy and higher technology they don't have to look back that far.
Secondly, Daniels is there like a traffic cop, not a revenge mad fanatic trying to restore his species. It would be like trying to bargain with a guy wearing a bomb vest with his finger on the button about his 72 virgins. He's committed to this line of action and you won't be able to poke holes in the logic because he doesn't care. He's a fanatic. Same thing but sci-fi.
Yes, it's possible that Daniels TRIED and failed to reason with the Sphere Builders.
Also.... Daniels didn't know everything. He didn't seem to know the origin of the Sphere builders. He also got sucker punched when that one Nakuhl used that "stealth" time machine.
Don't you people know that temporal mechanics work exactly however they need to, in order to satiate whatever needs the story's plot has?
Arguing over temporal logic, in a universe that has never had (and probably never could have consistent temporal logic, is just silly. It is what the writers say it is. It has always been what the writers say it is. In every piece of work that has ever involved time travel...
Don't you people know that temporal mechanics work exactly however they need to, in order to satiate whatever needs the story's plot has?
Arguing over temporal logic, in a universe that has never had (and probably never could have consistent temporal logic, is just silly. It is what the writers say it is. It has always been what the writers say it is. In every piece of work that has ever involved time travel...
True. But that doesn't stop us speculating and guessing how it works for this particular writer in this particular story.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well firstly, Daniels has no trouble because he's from so ridiculously far in the future compared to these guys. Even if they exist outside of our universe they still have to use technology to get into it and to look into its past. They're not as advanced and so their vision into the past is fuzzier because it takes more energy and higher technology they don't have to look back that far.
Secondly, Daniels is there like a traffic cop, not a revenge mad fanatic trying to restore his species. It would be like trying to bargain with a guy wearing a bomb vest with his finger on the button about his 72 virgins. He's committed to this line of action and you won't be able to poke holes in the logic because he doesn't care. He's a fanatic. Same thing but sci-fi.
Ok so Daniels has superior tech and knowledge, yet couldn't convey any of the reasoning behind the use of the Krenim weapon to the Sphere builders?
As far as the bomb fanatic, that is one interpretation of the situation. Another could be that Daniels and others like him are complete morons and didn't even think to try and communicate with the Sphere builders.
The third, and most likely explanation is that the entire temporal war arc was poorly written and poorly conceived.
Or the writers of Cryptic are terrible at tying up loose ends. I mean theyre struggling with their own storyline with the Iconians. Are we really shocked that the whole concept of Sphere Builders being victims of our interference with the Timeline is a mess?
Well firstly, Daniels has no trouble because he's from so ridiculously far in the future compared to these guys. Even if they exist outside of our universe they still have to use technology to get into it and to look into its past. They're not as advanced and so their vision into the past is fuzzier because it takes more energy and higher technology they don't have to look back that far.
Secondly, Daniels is there like a traffic cop, not a revenge mad fanatic trying to restore his species. It would be like trying to bargain with a guy wearing a bomb vest with his finger on the button about his 72 virgins. He's committed to this line of action and you won't be able to poke holes in the logic because he doesn't care. He's a fanatic. Same thing but sci-fi.
Ok so Daniels has superior tech and knowledge, yet couldn't convey any of the reasoning behind the use of the Krenim weapon to the Sphere builders?
As far as the bomb fanatic, that is one interpretation of the situation. Another could be that Daniels and others like him are complete morons and didn't even think to try and communicate with the Sphere builders.
The third, and most likely explanation is that the entire temporal war arc was poorly written and poorly conceived.
A sI said earlier, Daniels didn't seem to know the origin of the Sphere builders, thus he didn't fully understand why they wished to destroy the Federation.
A sI said earlier, Daniels didn't seem to know the origin of the Sphere builders, thus he didn't fully understand why they wished to destroy the Federation.
After seeing what he was capable of doing, the tech he had available to him etc., that stretches the imagination. It's like someone has access to a supercomputer, but it can't calculate 2 + 2.
In a neat narrative, we are only given the information relevant to solving the puzzle. In real life, you have to wade through mountains of irrelevant garbage and be able to see the numbers you're supposed to add up. And remember that this is basically politics. which is a social science, not a natural science. If you ask 100 people for the cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and you'll get 200 answers. Technology is TRIBBLE at understanding people.
So, assuming the Tuterians are the Sphere Builders, wouldn't they be interested in putting the Iconeans to sleep? If the Iconeans go away, no timeship, they come back. (The only reason that they'd know it was the Feds is if they can find the timeship, and if they can find that in our timeline, they should have enough discrimination to see the war.) For that matter, if they can see the timeship, wouldn't they be mad at the Romulans, who had their flagship escorting the darn thing.
Another way of explaining the concept of predestination paradox:
The original Terminator featured one, especially when you add in the deleted scenes. A defense computer called Skynet gains sentience and starts a nuclear war in a quest to kill off the human race. That continues in a human resistance and Skynet using robots to kill the survivors. Towards the end, Skynet is losing and gets desperate. It sends a machine back in time, a robot disguised as a human being, to kill the mother of the the leader of the human resistance before he's born. The resistance sends a soldier back in time to stop it.
In the end, the soldier sent back in time knocks up the mother of the resistance leader, creating said resistance leader. Parts of the destroyed robot left behind in a factory lead the company that owns it, Cyberdyne, to create advanced computer and robotic systems that leads to Skynet. Those parts end up there because the pair of humans were heading to the Cyberdyne facility in the first place to destroy it and thus prevent Skynet --a task one of them succeeds in in the future.
So what the bloody fvck?! If Kyle Reese never goes back in time he never knocks up Sarah Connor and John Connor is never born, and if John is never born he can't send Kyle back in time. If the Terminator remains never end up at Cyberdyne, they will never make the technology that becomes Skynet and thus Skynet won't exist to build the Terminator and send it back in time. None of the events of the future can exist without certain events that happen in the past but those events cannot happen unless that future exists for those people and machines to be sent back to the past from, and --
Anyhow, it's a big old @%$&ing loop that will give you a headache if you try to make sense of it from a perspective of normal, linear time. The fact that it makes no sense from a normal rational perspective and yet it happens anyway is why they call it a paradox --an unsolvable riddle.
...Technology is TRIBBLE at understanding people....
While that's true, Daniels could have used his technology and taken the Sphere Builders to the point in time when the weapon was used to see what transpired themselves.
If he can see the causal relationship between the incursions and the Tuterians becoming trapped in their interdimensional prison in the first place. He may have known their origin merely as beings from the Delta Quadrant who suffered an industrial accident.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
...Technology is TRIBBLE at understanding people....
While that's true, Daniels could have used his technology and taken the Sphere Builders to the point in time when the weapon was used to see what transpired themselves.
Thats if the Sphere Builders are able to be reasoned with. The reality is, when someones angry and they want someone to blame. Theyre going to find a scapegoat and theyre going to do whatever it is their hearts are set on doing to them. Wars are never avoided by those committed to starting them.
The Enterprises writers would of probably fleshed out the Temporal Cold War and Sphere Builders if there had been the interest there. But unfortunately many people grew bored with the story arc involving the whole Temporal Cold War. So they killed it off. Now Cryptic is capitalizing on the loose ends. Sometimes Cryptic does some interesting things with the storyline. Other times it feels like terrible Mary Sue Fanfic.
Whether this actually goes anywhere is an entirely different matter. They could just be dropping the hint in there that this is the beginning of things and leave it at that. Or they could have a year worth of content (as theyve said they want to do from here on out) that they want to eventually get to. Only time will tell.
The way I see it is this, WE created the sphere builders by fooling around, and accidentally zapping the Tuterians, not out of time, but in another dimension.
(There are some trains of thought in modern Multiverse thinking that if time travel is ever possible, it would be by traveling to another dimension, that happens to be in the past, this avoids paradoxes)
So now the Tuterians are pissed, they try to wipe us out in Enterprise, (in our past), they failed.
But somehow, they make a second attempt, (maybe they are the others the Iconians speak of).
I believe that the Solanne sphere, as well as the Dyson Sphere, where built by these sphere builders.
I also believe that we will have our version of the Battle of Procyon V, like it was for told. SOME Klingons are a part of starfleet. Xindi are part of the Federation. We have the advanced Rhode Island and the Dauntless classes, which were seen in the battle.
But because of some minor changes in the timeline, or just the general unpredictability of messing with the timeline, We have our battle earlier, (before an Enterprise J), Maybe Archer foiling the Sphere builders earlier attempt changed things, Maybe Janeway messed something up by traveling back in time in endgame... but the Battle of Procyon was inevitable, predestined if it were.
Maybe there is only so much one can change when fooling with time. Annorax can attest to that.
I also think the Sphere builders are our new baddies promised after the Iconian war.
Circle of causality complete.
It's my theory and I'm sticking to it lolz
Let's see how close I came to it.
To keep things simple for those wanting the explanation on how it all works out, the Sphere Builders are the opposite of the Solanae. The Sphere Builders are trapped in a higher dimensional space, the Solanae in a lower dimensional space. The Solanae have begun to figure out a way back into higher dimensional space, if the Tuterians are indeed the Sphere Builders then it is this new technology that they were experimenting with,
Comments
Well firstly, Daniels has no trouble because he's from so ridiculously far in the future compared to these guys. Even if they exist outside of our universe they still have to use technology to get into it and to look into its past. They're not as advanced and so their vision into the past is fuzzier because it takes more energy and higher technology they don't have to look back that far.
Secondly, Daniels is there like a traffic cop, not a revenge mad fanatic trying to restore his species. It would be like trying to bargain with a guy wearing a bomb vest with his finger on the button about his 72 virgins. He's committed to this line of action and you won't be able to poke holes in the logic because he doesn't care. He's a fanatic. Same thing but sci-fi.
Also.... Daniels didn't know everything. He didn't seem to know the origin of the Sphere builders. He also got sucker punched when that one Nakuhl used that "stealth" time machine.
My character Tsin'xing
Arguing over temporal logic, in a universe that has never had (and probably never could have consistent temporal logic, is just silly. It is what the writers say it is. It has always been what the writers say it is. In every piece of work that has ever involved time travel...
Or the writers of Cryptic are terrible at tying up loose ends. I mean theyre struggling with their own storyline with the Iconians. Are we really shocked that the whole concept of Sphere Builders being victims of our interference with the Timeline is a mess?
My character Tsin'xing
In a neat narrative, we are only given the information relevant to solving the puzzle. In real life, you have to wade through mountains of irrelevant garbage and be able to see the numbers you're supposed to add up. And remember that this is basically politics. which is a social science, not a natural science. If you ask 100 people for the cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and you'll get 200 answers. Technology is TRIBBLE at understanding people.
You're gonna love the movie "Predestination".
If he can see the causal relationship between the incursions and the Tuterians becoming trapped in their interdimensional prison in the first place. He may have known their origin merely as beings from the Delta Quadrant who suffered an industrial accident.
Thats if the Sphere Builders are able to be reasoned with. The reality is, when someones angry and they want someone to blame. Theyre going to find a scapegoat and theyre going to do whatever it is their hearts are set on doing to them. Wars are never avoided by those committed to starting them.
The Enterprises writers would of probably fleshed out the Temporal Cold War and Sphere Builders if there had been the interest there. But unfortunately many people grew bored with the story arc involving the whole Temporal Cold War. So they killed it off. Now Cryptic is capitalizing on the loose ends. Sometimes Cryptic does some interesting things with the storyline. Other times it feels like terrible Mary Sue Fanfic.
Whether this actually goes anywhere is an entirely different matter. They could just be dropping the hint in there that this is the beginning of things and leave it at that. Or they could have a year worth of content (as theyve said they want to do from here on out) that they want to eventually get to. Only time will tell.
(There are some trains of thought in modern Multiverse thinking that if time travel is ever possible, it would be by traveling to another dimension, that happens to be in the past, this avoids paradoxes)
So now the Tuterians are pissed, they try to wipe us out in Enterprise, (in our past), they failed.
But somehow, they make a second attempt, (maybe they are the others the Iconians speak of).
I believe that the Solanne sphere, as well as the Dyson Sphere, where built by these sphere builders.
I also believe that we will have our version of the Battle of Procyon V, like it was for told. SOME Klingons are a part of starfleet. Xindi are part of the Federation. We have the advanced Rhode Island and the Dauntless classes, which were seen in the battle.
But because of some minor changes in the timeline, or just the general unpredictability of messing with the timeline, We have our battle earlier, (before an Enterprise J), Maybe Archer foiling the Sphere builders earlier attempt changed things, Maybe Janeway messed something up by traveling back in time in endgame... but the Battle of Procyon was inevitable, predestined if it were.
Maybe there is only so much one can change when fooling with time. Annorax can attest to that.
I also think the Sphere builders are our new baddies promised after the Iconian war.
Circle of causality complete.
It's my theory and I'm sticking to it
Let's see how close I came to it.