Personally I STILL think it's Armas from Skin of Evil though....
Please...Armas can't even leave his friggin puddle. How is he supposed to save an entire stage II civilization?
"I am a skin of evil, left here by a race of titans who believed if they rid themselves of me they would free the bonds of destructiveness."
That's how. The Prophets said "The other saved them, the other shall save them again"
Armas was believed to be the amalgamation of all the "evil" cast aside by titans... but in Skin of Evil it's made very clear that Armas is more than just another villain... he's as close to an Iconain as you can get without being one.("And still you die from a flick of my power.") Not only this but he's the sum of not only the "loneliness" but also the doubt and depression of those Titans... loathing which became deceit and anger over the millennia of being alone.
What we know of the Iconains is that they're Energy beings.... and here is Armas.... The Physical remains of what was once "titans."
Interesting theory but I don't see how it saved them. The Titans wanted to shed all of their evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. This is why Armus was created and I don't see how doing so saved the Iconians from anything. They've returned and they're incredibly destructive and angry. Since Armus is pure rage and evil, how exactly would he save them again? You would think being near him would make things worse.
Interesting theory but I don't see how it saved them. The Titans wanted to shed all of their evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. This is why Armus was created and I don't see how doing so saved the Iconians from anything. They've returned and they're incredibly destructive and angry. Since Armus is pure rage and evil, how exactly would he save them again? You would think being near him would make things worse.
That may be true. but that could also be a doubt of Armas turned into "truth." Even Picard says "you believe your own lies." For all we know Armas could have been a shedding of the aspects of mortality and to an extent arrogance, anger, and wrath are part of that but look at the Q. They have those qualities and, thought they don't dandy it about(all the time anyway), think of themselves as gods, Just like the Iconians do. So even if the Iconians did shed their old selves(Galactic Plastic Surgery) into Armas then his creation "saved" them so they could leave and now in all their godly arrogance and wrath the rejoining of their corporeal existence could, in fact, cause them to take pause at all they've built.... and all they've destroyed.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
That could even still tie into my wormhole alien idea, but now making the pa wraiths the others. Hmm, another Sisko/Dukat showdown preceded by some witty banter? yes please.
The whole Prophets/Pah-Wraits storyline was the worst part of DS9. The pseudo-religious/mystery stuff should have been left out of the series.
That could even still tie into my wormhole alien idea, but now making the pa wraiths the others. Hmm, another Sisko/Dukat showdown preceded by some witty banter? yes please.
The whole Prophets/Pah-Wraits storyline was the worst part of DS9. The pseudo-religious/mystery stuff should have been left out of the series.
The pseudo-religious stuff and mystery stuff I didn't mind. It created an interesting situation, a society which has given up in practice on trusting in gods and spirits is suddenly confronted with a very spiritual species. And more than that - one of the irreligious people suddenly becomes a religious figure for that species. How can he come to grips with that? But - being Star Trek - these beings aren't "gods", they are just aliens. But this is not a closely held secret - it's fully communicated and understood, but yet - the religion still keeps on going. This was an intersting setup and it lead to interesting conflicts.
The "evil" Prophets in form of the Pagh-Wraiths, they were not needed.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Thanks to those Solane experiments her species did, she was not completely erased from the timeline, she just disappeared from the point of view of everyone else. She returns to her former lover and husband and he doesn't recognize her - worse, being his abrasive self he completely alienates her. And she gets furious, and so angry that she sets all the events in motion - she travels back in time to save 12 Iconians from the destruction of their species, and sets them on their course of conquest. And she kicks off the Temporal Cold War...
Hell hath no fury.... as the saying goes. I bet 400 Quatloos on this scenario
Slight misconception I think; does anything truly live out of time? If you're in a timeless environment, then theoretically, you're not living, you're just existing. To live would imply a beginning, and an end, and would otherwise be the perfect environment for a species wishing to play god.
I never did understand what the sphere builders (in Enterprise) were trying to achieve. If they existed out of time and were safe from the Federation, why run the risk of regaining time and potentially being destroyed? Illogical.
Personally I STILL think it's Armas from Skin of Evil though....
Please...Armas can't even leave his friggin puddle. How is he supposed to save an entire stage II civilization?
"I am a skin of evil, left here by a race of titans who believed if they rid themselves of me they would free the bonds of destructiveness."
That's how. The Prophets said "The other saved them, the other shall save them again"
Armas was believed to be the amalgamation of all the "evil" cast aside by titans... but in Skin of Evil it's made very clear that Armas is more than just another villain... he's as close to an Iconain as you can get without being one.("And still you die from a flick of my power.") Not only this but he's the sum of not only the "loneliness" but also the doubt and depression of those Titans... loathing which became deceit and anger over the millennia of being alone.
What we know of the Iconains is that they're Energy beings.... and here is Armas.... The Physical remains of what was once "titans."
Interesting theory but I don't see how it saved them. The Titans wanted to shed all of their evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. This is why Armus was created and I don't see how doing so saved the Iconians from anything. They've returned and they're incredibly destructive and angry. Since Armus is pure rage and evil, how exactly would he save them again? You would think being near him would make things worse.
Agreed. I don't think Armus fits into this to be honest. The exact dialouge from the episode:
TROI: And the emptiness remains. You sound so alone.
ARMUS [OC]: I am alone.
TROI: Abandoned. Who deserted you?
ARMUS [OC]: Creatures whose beauty now dazzles all who see them. They would not exist without me.
TROI: You were together?
ARMUS [OC]: They perfected a means of bringing to the surface all that was evil and negative within. Erupting, spreading, connecting. In time it formed second skin, dank and vile.
TROI: You.
ARMUS [OC]: Yes.
TROI: They discarded you and left.
ARMUS [OC]: And here I am.
If we examine one particular statement in this a little deeper, "Creatures whose beauty now dazzles all who see them. They would not exist without me" - firstly, this isn't a description that fits the Iconians. Secondly, no-one had seen the Iconians prior to the Alliance getting their attention.
In addition the Iconians still have the whole, manipulate, conquer, kill thing going on. If Armus was "The Other" then they shouldn't have all the hostility and conquest ambitions.
It also seems unlikely that an entity of such pure malice would be capable of, or even vaguely motivated toward, helping anyone.
If anything, it seems more likely that Armus could be all that remains of one of the species that allied to defeat the Iconians. Possibly horrified to have contributed to a galaxy-wide act of apparent xenocide they're as likely to have pursued the events that resulted in Armus.
We still have no explanation of where the male Iconians are. (No they're not Heralds, that's like comparing humans and trained apes.)
That could even still tie into my wormhole alien idea, but now making the pa wraiths the others. Hmm, another Sisko/Dukat showdown preceded by some witty banter? yes please.
The whole Prophets/Pah-Wraits storyline was the worst part of DS9. The pseudo-religious/mystery stuff should have been left out of the series.
The pseudo-religious stuff and mystery stuff I didn't mind. It created an interesting situation, a society which has given up in practice on trusting in gods and spirits is suddenly confronted with a very spiritual species. And more than that - one of the irreligious people suddenly becomes a religious figure for that species. How can he come to grips with that? But - being Star Trek - these beings aren't "gods", they are just aliens. But this is not a closely held secret - it's fully communicated and understood, but yet - the religion still keeps on going. This was an intersting setup and it lead to interesting conflicts.
The "evil" Prophets in form of the Pagh-Wraiths, they were not needed.
That and the final season forgetting what subtlety and metaphor is.
Sisko becomes the literal son of a god and Space Jesus, Dukat becomes a literal demon, and they both battle it out with magic powers.
This from the same writer who would later end Battlestar Galactica by.promoting cultural genocide as a good thing.
I really hate Ron Moore. I hope he never darkens anything Trek related again.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Um, in case you didn't realize, that was Ira Steve Behr who made the creative decisions regarding Dukat in the last season, not RDM. Part of the reason he did it--though people are free to disagree with *how* he went about it--was because of psycho fans who started idolizing Dukat and buying his warped, self-justifying rhetoric and actually thinking he was the great and benevolent hero he said he was. I've actually met that kind of crazy, unfortunately, and I can see how it would drive Behr to anger and to do what he did.
Personally I don't think Season 7 was as bad as many make it out to be. I consider "Covenant" to be a highlight of Marc Alaimo's acting skill--and personally I think the quality of his acting stayed high regardless of what one thinks of the material he was given. And if you view the plotline through a Milton/Dante lens, it's pretty neat. I know some feel that doesn't fit with DS9, but I did enjoy it. It doesn't make me wrong or stupid.
Anyway, at least blame the right guy for the Dukat plot, if you must be so angry, and please remember that not everybody has the same tastes as you.
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Um, in case you didn't realize, that was Ira Steve Behr who made the creative decisions regarding Dukat in the last season, not RDM. Part of the reason he did it--though people are free to disagree with *how* he went about it--was because of psycho fans who started idolizing Dukat and buying his warped, self-justifying rhetoric and actually thinking he was the great and benevolent hero he said he was. I've actually met that kind of crazy, unfortunately, and I can see how it would drive Behr to anger and to do what he did.
Personally I don't think Season 7 was as bad as many make it out to be. I consider "Covenant" to be a highlight of Marc Alaimo's acting skill--and personally I think the quality of his acting stayed high regardless of what one thinks of the material he was given. And if you view the plotline through a Milton/Dante lens, it's pretty neat. I know some feel that doesn't fit with DS9, but I did enjoy it. It doesn't make me wrong or stupid.
Anyway, at least blame the right guy for the Dukat plot, if you must be so angry, and please remember that not everybody has the same tastes as you.
Ron Moore was head writer and producer. I hold him as responsible for DS9's numerous creative failures just as people hold Rick Berman responsible for VOY and ENT's.
And please don't play the opinion card here, it doesn't work. The failure of devil Dukat is objective fact, and the fact that you can only defend it by praising Marc Alaimo's acting ability (not in dispute) and attempting to blame the fans pretty much proves that.
You cannot defend the actual plot and the magical Lord of the Rings crud that infested the last season.
Or the creepy, sociopathic writing that led to things like Sisko being conceived through an act of TRIBBLE and the perpetrators never being held accountable because they're space gods lol for that matter.
No. Opinions are NEVER objective fact. Your screaming otherwise does not give you carte blanche to force yours on anybody. You are free to state your opinion but you are not free to tell me that I do not have a right to hold an opinion different from yours.
It is your opinion that elements other than hard sci-fi cannot be in Star Trek; I think they can be, and quite frankly I prefer it to what I feel is a sterile, PC, no-character-development environment in TNG. It is OK if you think differently about TNG. I can allow your opinion to exist without screaming that mine is "objective fact." Mine is not, YOURS is not. We are allowed to differ.
It is your opinion that it was unjustified to send Dukat over the deep end. I think there was a reason for it, and while I might have suggested some improvements to that particular plotline, and I am also pleased to point out parts of it that came off really well ("Covenant" and also the fantastic creeptasticness of the scenes between Dukat and Winn, not to mention Winn's fall and the reasons for it), I do not think it was inherently bad or in need of deletion.
And it is your opinion that we as fans were not supposed to be uncomfortable with what the Prophets did to conceive Sisko--whereas instead of automatically screaming "Bad writing! Bad writing!" I think the writers knew full well how creepy it was and wanted to make us question whether the Prophets are worthy of the Bajorans' worship. It wasn't the first time they'd raised those sorts of uncomfortable questions. Even if you go back to the beginning of the series where the Prophets brainwashed Grand Nagus Zek, it's clear there's a running theme that the Prophets are less than godlike because they are less than respectful of free will. I think you can do better than strawmanning me to suggest that I would somehow condone the Prophets' TRIBBLE of Sisko's mother. Rather, I think the writers, by creeping the viewer out, accomplished exactly what they set out to do.
Reminds me of how people knee-jerk reacted to the Kobali plotline without stopping a moment to consider that Cryptic intended us to feel creeped out and repulsed by what the Kobali were doing, and more ambivalent about the Vaadwaur position after playing those episodes. If people didn't like that, that's certainly fine, but again, no matter how anyone tries to inflate their opinion into being more than that, people are allowed to appreciate that difficult and controversial questions were raised without being slammed as somehow unable to recognize right and wrong.
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Sometimes the most obvious hiding place is the one that is in plain sight.
Who has been in the background since day one, subtly manipulating/ordering our Federation character into key events, has been solely responsible for promoting us from an Ensign to a Fleet Admiral within a matter of months, somehow manages to avoid being replaced by an Undine for lord alone knows how long, especially when said Undine had a major chance to do so during the attack on ESD AND is oh so conveniently not killed when the Iconian appears in the Great Hall for the first time and takes out the Klingon High Council with just a wave of her hand?
The Other is Admiral Quinn.
Either that or the entire thing is a Red Herring by Cryptic to get me to come up with a random and completely off the wall speculation like this one...
Heeheee, have you been reading the Masterverse stories?
I haven't...but I went looking for it online this afternoon. A very funny piece of fan fiction that had me chuckling throughout. Perhaps there might be some mileage in the idea of an omnipotent entity disguised as a Starfleet Admiral from Trill casually running rings around his murderous tea making Undine assistant after all. Thanks for the tip.
Hm...not sure you found our stories as they tend not to be funny. Plus in ours, it's not some assistant who's the Undine.
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On the subject of Armus being The Other...if the skin of evil was shed by the Iconians and left behind on Vagra 2..and as The Other appears to be revered by those Iconians still around...how come they don't know where to look?
On the subject of Armus being The Other...if the skin of evil was shed by the Iconians and left behind on Vagra 2..and as The Other appears to be revered by those Iconians still around...how come they don't know where to look?
If I recall correctly... The Iconians never say The Other is "lost" just that it exists and at some point it will have to get involved.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Hm...not sure you found our stories as they tend not to be funny. Plus in ours, it's not some assistant who's the Undine.
Ooops..wrong Masterverse. Could you point me in the right direction please?
PM sent.
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Armas was believed to be the amalgamation of all the "evil" cast aside by titans... but in Skin of Evil it's made very clear that Armas is more than just another villain... he's as close to an Iconain as you can get without being one.("And still you die from a flick of my power.")
Buffy: Pretty sure. It claimed to be the original evil, the one that came before anything else.
Anya: Please, how many times have I heard that line in my demon days? "I'm so rotten, they don't even have a word for it. I'm bad. Baddy bad bad bad. Does it make you horny?" Or terrified. Whatever.
Seriously, not only is this line taken directly from the evil overlord playbook, there also probably hundreds of entities in ST that can kill with the flick of a finger, including us.
Not only this but he's the sum of not only the "loneliness" but also the doubt and depression of those Titans... loathing which became deceit and anger over the millennia of being alone.
Well, if the Iconians' intention was to shed their "evilness" they sure did a TRIBBLE poor job at it...
Not only this but he's the sum of not only the "loneliness" but also the doubt and depression of those Titans... loathing which became deceit and anger over the millennia of being alone.
Well, if the Iconians' intention was to shed their "evilness" they sure did a TRIBBLE poor job at it...
Again the "shed their evilness" is not what i'm taking that as.... I'm looking at it as Shed their physical form and their more mortal emotions. It's THOSE emotions.... Doubt, Fear, Loneliness, including smaller forms of emotions like arrogance, anger, and ego allowed the Iconians to become Energy beings and also be these creatures of extreme arrogance, wrath and, and power, like the Q, that made them claim to be gods.
Cardassains, Humans, Romulans, Klingons, even Vulcans have these emotions... now shed these emotions and your physical form to become a being of pure energy. You WILL be a titan who's beauty would be blinding(just about every being of pure energy is always bright and glowy in Trek)
I don't believe Armas was "everything evil" shed from titans. I believe It was mortality,(flesh and bone) and emotions and those emotions were it's excuse for taking out it's own bitter anger and rage on anyone who happened by. Now, just like Armas.... spend millennial in exile, bitter that soemone left you/forced you away and the Iconians in their "godly" existence became just as bitter and "evil" as Armas became at being abandoned.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
: cough : Trelane. Maybe Armus was left in his puddle by the Organians.. Where ARE the organians, anyway? off on a cosmic cruise with the Metrons?
Again you're missing the point that "The Other" is singular.... not plural.... a being, not a race. Trelane was part of a race.... a Child of that race... but a race non the less.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
: cough : Trelane. Maybe Armus was left in his puddle by the Organians.. Where ARE the organians, anyway? off on a cosmic cruise with the Metrons?
Again you're missing the point that "The Other" is singular.... not plural.... a being, not a race. Trelane was part of a race.... a Child of that race... but a race non the less.
Races or organizations with a cohesive group are generally treated as singular in American English.
British English would (classically) say, "Parliament are making a decision." American English treats collectives as singular. "Parliament IS making a decision." I believe I've read that's starting to take over in the UK as well.
: cough : Trelane. Maybe Armus was left in his puddle by the Organians.. Where ARE the organians, anyway? off on a cosmic cruise with the Metrons?
Again you're missing the point that "The Other" is singular.... not plural.... a being, not a race. Trelane was part of a race.... a Child of that race... but a race non the less.
Races or organizations with a cohesive group are generally treated as singular in American English.
British English would (classically) say, "Parliament are making a decision." American English treats collectives as singular. "Parliament IS making a decision." I believe I've read that's starting to take over in the UK as well.
We're more likely to say 'The Commons are making a decision' than parliament . That may well be a case of is or are, but never refer to a band or sports team as singular , that will annoy people.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The longer the story and speculation lasts, the less I care. End the iconian thing alread and give us new dawn, exploration and new worlds!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
We still have no explanation of where the male Iconians are. (No they're not Heralds, that's like comparing humans and trained apes.)
Again.... WHY does there have to be Male Iconians at all?
Because it has already been suggested by a Dev that there are but we haven't seen one yet. Indeed the way it was implied suggested that this absence would have an impact on the plot. Also the clear gender identification of the Iconians we have seen as female (both in language and morphology) implies that there are, or were, Iconians that identified as male.
Comments
Interesting theory but I don't see how it saved them. The Titans wanted to shed all of their evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. This is why Armus was created and I don't see how doing so saved the Iconians from anything. They've returned and they're incredibly destructive and angry. Since Armus is pure rage and evil, how exactly would he save them again? You would think being near him would make things worse.
That may be true. but that could also be a doubt of Armas turned into "truth." Even Picard says "you believe your own lies." For all we know Armas could have been a shedding of the aspects of mortality and to an extent arrogance, anger, and wrath are part of that but look at the Q. They have those qualities and, thought they don't dandy it about(all the time anyway), think of themselves as gods, Just like the Iconians do. So even if the Iconians did shed their old selves(Galactic Plastic Surgery) into Armas then his creation "saved" them so they could leave and now in all their godly arrogance and wrath the rejoining of their corporeal existence could, in fact, cause them to take pause at all they've built.... and all they've destroyed.
The whole Prophets/Pah-Wraits storyline was the worst part of DS9. The pseudo-religious/mystery stuff should have been left out of the series.
The "evil" Prophets in form of the Pagh-Wraiths, they were not needed.
Hell hath no fury.... as the saying goes. I bet 400 Quatloos on this scenario
I never did understand what the sphere builders (in Enterprise) were trying to achieve. If they existed out of time and were safe from the Federation, why run the risk of regaining time and potentially being destroyed? Illogical.
It also seems unlikely that an entity of such pure malice would be capable of, or even vaguely motivated toward, helping anyone.
If anything, it seems more likely that Armus could be all that remains of one of the species that allied to defeat the Iconians. Possibly horrified to have contributed to a galaxy-wide act of apparent xenocide they're as likely to have pursued the events that resulted in Armus.
We still have no explanation of where the male Iconians are. (No they're not Heralds, that's like comparing humans and trained apes.)
That and the final season forgetting what subtlety and metaphor is.
Sisko becomes the literal son of a god and Space Jesus, Dukat becomes a literal demon, and they both battle it out with magic powers.
This from the same writer who would later end Battlestar Galactica by.promoting cultural genocide as a good thing.
I really hate Ron Moore. I hope he never darkens anything Trek related again.
Again.... WHY does there have to be Male Iconians at all?
Personally I don't think Season 7 was as bad as many make it out to be. I consider "Covenant" to be a highlight of Marc Alaimo's acting skill--and personally I think the quality of his acting stayed high regardless of what one thinks of the material he was given. And if you view the plotline through a Milton/Dante lens, it's pretty neat. I know some feel that doesn't fit with DS9, but I did enjoy it. It doesn't make me wrong or stupid.
Anyway, at least blame the right guy for the Dukat plot, if you must be so angry, and please remember that not everybody has the same tastes as you.
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Ron Moore was head writer and producer. I hold him as responsible for DS9's numerous creative failures just as people hold Rick Berman responsible for VOY and ENT's.
And please don't play the opinion card here, it doesn't work. The failure of devil Dukat is objective fact, and the fact that you can only defend it by praising Marc Alaimo's acting ability (not in dispute) and attempting to blame the fans pretty much proves that.
You cannot defend the actual plot and the magical Lord of the Rings crud that infested the last season.
Or the creepy, sociopathic writing that led to things like Sisko being conceived through an act of TRIBBLE and the perpetrators never being held accountable because they're space gods lol for that matter.
It is your opinion that elements other than hard sci-fi cannot be in Star Trek; I think they can be, and quite frankly I prefer it to what I feel is a sterile, PC, no-character-development environment in TNG. It is OK if you think differently about TNG. I can allow your opinion to exist without screaming that mine is "objective fact." Mine is not, YOURS is not. We are allowed to differ.
It is your opinion that it was unjustified to send Dukat over the deep end. I think there was a reason for it, and while I might have suggested some improvements to that particular plotline, and I am also pleased to point out parts of it that came off really well ("Covenant" and also the fantastic creeptasticness of the scenes between Dukat and Winn, not to mention Winn's fall and the reasons for it), I do not think it was inherently bad or in need of deletion.
And it is your opinion that we as fans were not supposed to be uncomfortable with what the Prophets did to conceive Sisko--whereas instead of automatically screaming "Bad writing! Bad writing!" I think the writers knew full well how creepy it was and wanted to make us question whether the Prophets are worthy of the Bajorans' worship. It wasn't the first time they'd raised those sorts of uncomfortable questions. Even if you go back to the beginning of the series where the Prophets brainwashed Grand Nagus Zek, it's clear there's a running theme that the Prophets are less than godlike because they are less than respectful of free will. I think you can do better than strawmanning me to suggest that I would somehow condone the Prophets' TRIBBLE of Sisko's mother. Rather, I think the writers, by creeping the viewer out, accomplished exactly what they set out to do.
Reminds me of how people knee-jerk reacted to the Kobali plotline without stopping a moment to consider that Cryptic intended us to feel creeped out and repulsed by what the Kobali were doing, and more ambivalent about the Vaadwaur position after playing those episodes. If people didn't like that, that's certainly fine, but again, no matter how anyone tries to inflate their opinion into being more than that, people are allowed to appreciate that difficult and controversial questions were raised without being slammed as somehow unable to recognize right and wrong.
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I haven't...but I went looking for it online this afternoon. A very funny piece of fan fiction that had me chuckling throughout. Perhaps there might be some mileage in the idea of an omnipotent entity disguised as a Starfleet Admiral from Trill casually running rings around his murderous tea making Undine assistant after all. Thanks for the tip.
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Ooops..wrong Masterverse. Could you point me in the right direction please?
If I recall correctly... The Iconians never say The Other is "lost" just that it exists and at some point it will have to get involved.
Although Dukat fits the "day of fire" comment in a different way...
PM sent.
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Anya: Please, how many times have I heard that line in my demon days? "I'm so rotten, they don't even have a word for it. I'm bad. Baddy bad bad bad. Does it make you horny?" Or terrified. Whatever.
Seriously, not only is this line taken directly from the evil overlord playbook, there also probably hundreds of entities in ST that can kill with the flick of a finger, including us.
Well, if the Iconians' intention was to shed their "evilness" they sure did a TRIBBLE poor job at it...
Hasn't been seen =/= "lost"
Again the "shed their evilness" is not what i'm taking that as.... I'm looking at it as Shed their physical form and their more mortal emotions. It's THOSE emotions.... Doubt, Fear, Loneliness, including smaller forms of emotions like arrogance, anger, and ego allowed the Iconians to become Energy beings and also be these creatures of extreme arrogance, wrath and, and power, like the Q, that made them claim to be gods.
Cardassains, Humans, Romulans, Klingons, even Vulcans have these emotions... now shed these emotions and your physical form to become a being of pure energy. You WILL be a titan who's beauty would be blinding(just about every being of pure energy is always bright and glowy in Trek)
I don't believe Armas was "everything evil" shed from titans. I believe It was mortality,(flesh and bone) and emotions and those emotions were it's excuse for taking out it's own bitter anger and rage on anyone who happened by. Now, just like Armas.... spend millennial in exile, bitter that soemone left you/forced you away and the Iconians in their "godly" existence became just as bitter and "evil" as Armas became at being abandoned.
Again you're missing the point that "The Other" is singular.... not plural.... a being, not a race. Trelane was part of a race.... a Child of that race... but a race non the less.
Races or organizations with a cohesive group are generally treated as singular in American English.
British English would (classically) say, "Parliament are making a decision." American English treats collectives as singular. "Parliament IS making a decision." I believe I've read that's starting to take over in the UK as well.
We're more likely to say 'The Commons are making a decision' than parliament
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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