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Battle OUTRAGEOUS Exchange prices with an accumulating Posting Fee

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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    That's an error. There is an opportunity cost to using rather than selling the omega stuff. It *costs* the same.

    Farming the omega stuff was time -> ec, it generated value for you, but using them rather than selling them had a real cost, an opportunity cost.

    What I sold in common omega particles, more than made up for any possible loss from opportunity costs, not to mention the un-competing profits made from my sold weapons as well.

    So, the time invested, was more than worth it, fitted 2 mains fully like I wanted, made profit on common particles and, made profit off of sold crafted junk weapons I didn't want.
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  • therealmttherealmt Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The OP doesnt realise the exhange is player driven, and the value of EC is simply tuned to what a specific item is worth in real money (compared to zen, dil, lobi)
    He simply has no clue how a free economic system works.

    This whole thread has no point existing.
    Youre not going to change an open and free trading system which has been around for 5 years.

    People decided this should become a free2play/pay2win game partly because of declining subscriptions, now dont QQ because the direct result is exchange holding in-game gear only(pre f2p), to paid lockbox ships and other goodies(f2p), and yes someone paid for it.

    If you re going to tax players on the exchange in one way shape or form, it wont matter. EC prices willl drop but it will be the same relative value, it will only make obtaining the same amount of EC harder, also for the players that cry about the prices.

    So no matter what you do, as long as free currency exists for trading, and the corresponding trade items reflect paid objects, the system will remain sustained.


    If you think EC prices are over the top, you should simply not be playing a mmo model such as STO.
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    That doesn't change the opportunity cost though, it's a technical point but it's good to internalize the fact of opportunity costs. It helps you always see the clearest picture of your finances.

    There are two discreet, unrelated things that happen. One, you spend time to get particles, thus creating equity, value, or wealth for yourself.

    Then, now that you have acquired this equity, you choose to sell it or dispose of it in some other way. You use it to craft, you forego the EC proceeds from selling it, and any profit you might have made from investing that EC in something else.

    If the crafting is profitable, good! But you can't double dip in your accounting, the opportunity cost, the market value of all the materials, is subtracted from the gross profit to find the net profit.

    Well, if you deem common crafting mats to make mkii weapons a loss!

    Otherwise, time was my only true investment, everything else was profitable.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,070 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    It's charity because it is giving money away to somone else.

    If you have a gold coin, and instead of selling it for the market rate of gold, you sell it to a poor person for half the market rate, you've just done an act of charity, no different from if you'd just given him money.


    Having something that you can easily sell for a given sum of money, something 'liquid', is for all intents and purposes the same as having that much money.

    I didn't say anything about charity. I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

    All I said was, if the item is too expensive for the OP, then they don't have to buy it.
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  • doubleohninedoubleohnine Member Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Ok mods, you can lock this thread now. Ive taken all the economic lessons learned here and have a new idea in a new thread coming soon.

    Lastly, Im not being socialist. Im just after a defined and easy to understand value for my dollar. Im not against making a buck on a lucky roll, or after putting in an expensive effort to craft something.
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  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Lastly, Im not being socialist. Im just after a defined and easy to understand value for my dollar. Im not against making a buck on a lucky roll, or after putting in an expensive effort to craft something.

    1.) Check what zen cost in dollar.
    2.) Check what purchaseables from the zenstore cost at the exchange (Fleet ship modules, Starship upgrades, RnD-Pack etc. etc.)
    3.) Check what named purchaseables cost in zen.

    And thus you have an easy to understand value for your dollar. In a very trivial way.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    And, just as bad as those who corner markets!!!

    No it's not.

    One involves people working within voluntary transactions to advance their own standing on a fair playing field. The other involves the forcible taking from people who can't consent.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    OP is not understanding economics. Infinite supply of credits, low supply of useful items, so price of items is a very large number of credits. This is not gouging, it is basic supply and demand theory. Using the exchange for storage sends the item to your mailbox for storage which can be done without bothering with the exchange for most items -- its pointless, and I doubt that is what you are seeing (possible, but seems dumb to me).

    STO has a nearly infinite supply of credits, with almost zero use for them after a certain point. After a character reaches max level with most of the gear, the only use for credits is to buy things from other players. But there is an infinite supply of them -- one makes what, 1/2 a million every hour or so at 60 just in vendor trash -- so inflation and "high" prices result.

    What needs to be done are credit sinks. Not on the exchange, or not *only* on the exchange. If you put a penalty on the exchange, all you do is HELP the farmers and established cartels/monopolies that manipulate the exchange -- trust me, these guys know how to make any system work in their favor. We need a useful credit sink in the game, something we can buy that is worth buying, for example get rid of the stupid "parts" to repair and make repairs cost like 1k / level of the player (60k max, then) a pop. Or put in a fuel system where it costs to travel -- we already have this in part, there are for-pay transwarps, so I am really just suggesting to extend this and/or do away with the free bypasses to the paid system to turn that into a credit sink. Better (in some ways) would be if they just put the very old (t5) lock box ships in the shipyard for 100 million credits each or something, that would get rid of some of the excess. Same for the ancient weapon boxes and such... it would solve the problem quickly at low risk (are people really buying large numbers of keys to open antique boxes ??).

    It is probably too late, regardless. Too many EC in circulation to soak it back out now, it would take a decade for any "reasonably priced" sink to drain off the excess credits now.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azniadeet wrote: »
    No it's not.

    One involves people working within voluntary transactions to advance their own standing on a fair playing field. The other involves the forcible taking from people who can't consent.

    Not even remotely close!
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  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I for one do not support the idea of adding a posting fee. They have it over in champions and it has kept me from posting items at all. More so when I actually get items worth selling, and I don't have enough for the fee in the first place, and secondly, because i never get the money back if the item doesn't sell bringing me right back to the first issue.


    It's a terrible idea and would do nothing to stop the problems you're talking about.
  • siriusmusictownsiriusmusictown Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited June 2015

    The capitalistic idealism that, people need be wealthy and, not contribute to their fellow citizens, is just how this country is headed.

    Humans simply not caring about other humans, unless they deem them worthy of their mercy blessing!!!

    America was strong, because they relied on themselves for production, now they rely on other's by outsourcing everything for profit margins.

    Including worker's.

    America (as the original colonies which became the continental United States) was founded without a tax on the transactions of goods and services. There is no provision for income tax in the constitution.

    Also-- I do not deem you worthy of my mercy blessing. The weak will perish.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The question of how much you care about others has absolutely nothing to do with your position on capitalism.

    I take that back.

    If you support capitalism, you care enough about others to allow them to care about others as much as they are comfortable and capable of doing so.

    You don't show others you care by stealing from them.
  • crusader0007crusader0007 Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    We all hate it. Gear priced so outrageously you assume the seller is using the exchange for storage and or insanely greedy.

    What about a 1% of total lot price posting fee that charges 1% for every day item is on exchange, maxing out at 14 days before the item is returned to you?

    Example, you post an item for $100,000. The posting fee is 1% for every 24 hours its on the exchange. If it sells in 1 minute, its 1%, if it sells in 23 hrs and 59 minutes, its 1%. You get 99,000 EC back on a 100G lot. But if you were greedy, and overpriced for the item, and it sat on the exchange for 14 days, the item is returned to you, and 14,000 deducted from your bank account. And the system would require you to put that $14,000 in as a deposit to make sure you were good for it up front. If you keep putting up the same item priced so bad it wont sell, it hurts the SELLER'S wallet for their greed.

    Would this be a fair system for sellers and buyers to help make sure things are priced to sell? Instead of asking insane prices for low end gear? Can this be the cure for exchange inflation?

    You don't speak for me...so please don't use the "WE" word. This is a horrible idea and why punish those who are successful in selling in the exchange.

    Why the double posting?
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1471651

    Don't force others to your opinion...the more threads you write the more they will be merged since it is against the forum rules. Your ideas fit more like a dictatorship as in China or the old soviet union. Even they are smart enough to work within Capitalism...I will leave it at that.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    America (as the original colonies which became the continental United States) was founded without a tax on the transactions of goods and services. There is no provision for income tax in the constitution.

    Also-- I do not deem you worthy of my mercy blessing. The weak will perish.

    Yes, and just look how tax ridden the U.S. is today!!!

    There's also, nothing in the constitution written, that gives the right to be wealthy either!!!
    azniadeet wrote: »
    The question of how much you care about others has absolutely nothing to do with your position on capitalism.

    I take that back.

    If you support capitalism, you care enough about others to allow them to care about others as much as they are comfortable and capable of doing so.

    You don't show others you care by stealing from them.

    Capitalism is the ideology of stealing, just look how much white collar crime it breeds and, how much it promotes the ideology of capital wealth over bleeding others dry of theirs.

    You know, capitalists support things like this!

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/08/27/starbucks-fires-employee-on-food-stamps-for-eating-a-sandwich-from-the-garbage
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  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Capitalism is the ideology of stealing, just look how much white collar crime it breeds and, how much it promotes the ideology of capital wealth over bleeding others dry of theirs.
    You're thinking of communism.
    Not quite.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You're thinking of communism.

    Not quite.

    Not even remotely close, capitalism promotes the incentive of wealth, at the expense and misery of others.
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • sanokskyratsanokskyrat Member Posts: 479 Media Corps
    edited June 2015
    Getting back to the OP. That is a horrible idea. The dil exchange already takes a cut and you can see how the prices for that works. Dil is so over price its insane.

    As for the exchange antiprton beams with critdx3 Mk II were at 12 mill not there at 3.5mill. the exchange always correct itself. Want another example, contraband was 15 mill for 250 now is under 8 mill. It just about waiting and know when to buy and when not too.
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  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Capitalism is the ideology of stealing, just look how much white collar crime it breeds and, how much it promotes the ideology of capital wealth over bleeding others dry of theirs.

    Wealth is not static. One's gain need not be anothers loss.

    Capitalism is the ideology of creation, as opposed to the ideology of redistributive destruction (stealing).


    Yes, I support the right of businesses to decide who they hire and fire for themselves. They own the jobs that they create, and I'm not going to steal those jobs from them.

    And just to add, the guy in this story appears to be a youthful, physically capable, working man living in a major metropolitan area. He's got a job AND is getting public subsidy. There is absolutely no reason he should be eating out of the trash. Seems like he's looking for ways to enable an unsustainable lifestyle. Maybe this termination will motivate him to make some better life choices... unless there's A LOT more to his story, I see no reason he should be getting food stamps at all.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Also, the Ferengi were hardly Capitalists. They relied on a central authority to enforce their own morass of economic mandates... Capitalism would hardly condone 'liquidators'. They were as bureaucratized as any other statist economy.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    We're fortunate then that this is Star Trek, and the Rules of Acquisition give us not only a right, but indeed a sacred duty to acquire profit and accumulate wealth.

    The 18th rule of acquisition states "A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all."


    Alternative would be to play as soldier.

    Ok, an income of 2,3-2,5k Dil and 0,3-0,4 mil EC per 3-6 minutes of easy peasy elite contend rather feels like being a mercenary.

    But for anybody with a bad conscience around: “It was all for the Federation!”
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  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    capitalism promotes the incentive of wealth, at the expense and misery of others.
    No, it doesn't.

    Incidentally, increased regulation only harms the middle and lower classes. Not really sure what you're championing here.
    azniadeet wrote: »
    They were as bureaucratized as any other statist economy.
    Without question. Just look at the chronic bribery.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,891 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azniadeet wrote: »
    Also, the Ferengi were hardly Capitalists.

    You live long enough , you'll hear everything ... .
    Without question. Just look at the chronic bribery.


    Indeed .




    ... as the baby's in the poor house might just need only 100 million in bribes to win 2016 ... , which comes to about 60.000$ per capita , if we split down the voting force in half. Wouldn't you like to receive that bribe up front in an envelope ... (?) , and bypass the whole $$$ ppl buying politics so that politicians can just lie to you ... ?
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azniadeet wrote: »
    Wealth is not static. One's gain need not be anothers loss.

    Capitalism is the ideology of creation, as opposed to the ideology of redistributive destruction (stealing).




    Yes, I support the right of businesses to decide who they hire and fire for themselves. They own the jobs that they create, and I'm not going to steal those jobs from them.

    And just to add, the guy in this story appears to be a youthful, physically capable, working man living in a major metropolitan area. He's got a job AND is getting public subsidy. There is absolutely no reason he should be eating out of the trash. Seems like he's looking for ways to enable an unsustainable lifestyle. Maybe this termination will motivate him to make some better life choices... unless there's A LOT more to his story, I see no reason he should be getting food stamps at all.

    Not an un-common practice today, by low income employer's.

    http://www.thewire.com/business/2013/10/instead-living-wage-mcdonalds-tells-workers-sign-food-stamps/70881/

    Or, how about COLI [Corporate Owned Life Insurance, aka dead peasants insurance]

    http://www.businessinsider.com/is-there-a-dead-peasant-life-insurance-policy-out-on-you-2011-11

    Seems pretty greedy to me!!!
    Doesn't matter if you are a capitalist, socialist, communist, whatever... All business owners support things like that.

    And looking at that from a customers perspective. I don't want any employee that thinks it is okay to rummage thru the garbage at his job, during working hours, for food and eating it involved in any part of processing my food order.

    It's disgusting, it's unsanitary, and I WILL complain to the manager, the owner/corporate hq, as well as complain to my local public health department.

    Actually, he didn't take it from the trash, it was food considered over time [aka expired]. Many companies get rid of food, that is perfectly fine [not all], instead of allowing employees to obtain it. Company would rather take the loss, than show any compassion for the employees!!!
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  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Actually, he didn't take it from the trash, it was food considered over time [aka expired]. Many companies get rid of food, that is perfectly fine [not all], instead of allowing employees to obtain it. Company would rather take the loss, than show any compassion for the employees!!!

    Though I am more on your side in this argument, I think they also dont allow it because they fear lawsuits if something really wasnt edible anymore.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    woodwhity wrote: »
    Though I am more on your side in this argument, I think they also dont allow it because they fear lawsuits if something really wasnt edible anymore.

    Understandable and, I agree with you whole heartedly here but, having worked for McD's back when I was a teen, they visually and temperature inspect the food being disposed of and, many times they check out either borderline or, still perfectly fine!!!

    Have even seen them dispose of 10min. old food, simply because not enough customers showed up before closing time.

    Don't get me wrong, some of the stores and/or managers don't mind but, there are also the sticklers who do.
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