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Battle OUTRAGEOUS Exchange prices with an accumulating Posting Fee

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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Your flawed assumption, just like the TRIBBLE experiment, is that there would be absolutely NO incentive.

    There can still be incentive to do good, it just shouldn't be wealth or grades alone!!!

    You also assume, that given time, they will undoubtedly never work to succeed, despite the social scaling.

    If given no alternative, humans can and do, work harder under stressful circumstances, for the better of humanity but, not all humans.

    There will always be those, who don't get the picture, as to why!!!

    The expreriment is no better or worse than yours, the way you even drew the distribution was off to begine with, it shouldve been the top 20 of all of the classes combined got the A's, but if your going to move goalposts anyways. Mine just doesnt fit your narrative, but is as relevant, if not more. Your whole point was based on the issuance of the wealth of grades, and the fairness or lack thereof.

    The motivator is the wealth because thats that the supply inyour supply/demand example, the output of the student is the demand. The aggregate output of the amount of work actually put out to earn a grade. You directly correlated the grades to money, which is a motivator. Some students would try as hard, for the sake of knowledge, but human nature dictates that vast majority would
    eventually figure out the input/output issue and decise that its not worth putting out A work for a C grade, because like it or not thats what humans do.

    A few will keep working at thier level, because of other motivations, others will test the waters down to where they find there effort equates to their outcome. Others will "Change teachers or schools/systems", i.e. move to a better economy. Eitherway, the amount of effort and output has dropped, and so would the pool of grades/wealth because an economies wealth is based on aggregate output. Rinse lather, repeat.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,891 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Bureaucracy is a terribly inefficient means of distributing resources.

    And, over time, terribly unfair, as well.

    You think the 1% have too much control now?

    Yes, yes I do .
    And as strange as it may sound, I'm curious as to what your 'Founding Fathers' would have thought about this, considering that they were well aware of a time (prior to the industrial revolution) , when only monarchy's held the equivalent of the wealth of the "1%" that you talked about , and ... , well all your deceleration of independence & bill of rights point to them trying to get the American ppl AWAY from such localized and centralized points of power & wealth .

    Having said that , I do not believe that we (as humans) have yet a perfect monetary system .
    I also see the flaws and failures (not all) of all the major systems proposed so far .
    I also see the dangers in extrimism, not just religious but financial as well .

    And as crazy as it may sound, I'd support a limiting of wealth of individuals, on a global scale .
    Something "comfortable" , around the $50 million range , with anything more going into a central education, health & research departments of each country .

    Now I know that there are ppl who'd consider themselves poor with 50M in the bank .
    And my heart goes out to those poor TRIBBLE, really . :rolleyes:

    But if they spend their 50 Mil but earn more, that's still theirs to keep, as long as they don't go over that number .




    ... see, while I do agree that it takes money to make money, I also saw this show called Hoarders, and frankly that is what those "1%" are doing, nothing more, nothing less, and at this rate, the money making money will take them to a point where in say 200 years, they will have nearly everything while the country goes bankrupt , as per the Pok
  • vamankvamank Member Posts: 366 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I have two Galors that have been sitting for months. I rather hold them in inventory and hope that they go up sharply because Cryptic releases a Cardi faction then to sell them for what they are worth now.

    So any kind of exchange management will only create a underground economy. There is already for some ships once they become so rare that they are worth more then the exchange max of 500 million EC. Cryptic already tried to manage the exchange by putting a cap and many players like myself just sell privately.

    Now if anyone starts with the whole, that is greed or doesnt understand how to accumulate that kind of EC should just not bothering replying.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    Actually what is preposterous is expecting non stop investment on one hand and digging a bigger and bigger debt hole that encompasses not only your generation but your sons and grandsons as well .
    What you create there is essentially an artificial country, one that defacto cannot pull it's own weight .

    Now if another country does this , say Greece , it's threatened with cutting off aid and getting booted from the EU .
    And despite my empathy for Greece, that is what a semi-normal reaction should be to a faltering economy .
    Russia went through far worse in the 90's .
    The reason (or at least one reason) that many Americans can't concive going through a similar process is because they sense that "wealth" is all around them ... , I mean just look at the latest iPhone and s#it .
    That sensation is by large an illusion however, and the actual reality looks something more like this .



    I hope you won't be offended by this, but that is a very US centric POV .
    Considering how China treats it's neighborhood , and the US interest in that region ... , well let's just say that it would do you good to educate yourself on what type of businesses partner you have .

    Bort once said that Cryptic could loose the income from a whole country and not be effected . Depending on their slowly evolving regional aspirations, there may come a time when China might contemplate the same about the US .





    ... as of now you may hold each other by the sack, but that limits US options far more than it does China , and unless you turn away from the debt-candy and go on a diet, you may find that your ... sponsors may even refuse to fund your next military adventure (wherever that may be) ...

    Both of you are right/ and to an extent wrong. US debt is bought upon the confidence that the US economy will stay strong enough to pay its debts and then some.

    The US is ina weird spot, monetarily, because its currency isnt backed by Gold or other attainable, just the promise of of repaying its debt. Because of how its backed, it can continue to print more money in order for the government to spend more domestically. This is a big reason why the dolllar has seen devaluing over the last 40 years.

    At the pace that we are going, the value of the dollar, foreign debt and domestic debt will come to a head where "conser confidence" would drop low enough to where US debt isnt a good buy. This is increasingly more a danger now that China is poised to be the number one economy (if it hasnt alrady) Eventually buyers would call in thier debts, and the govt would not be able to pay enough back at one time for enough people to not conside it a default.

    It will impact other countries because of US foreign spending, and would create hardships, but it wouldnt totally tank the entire world economy. Some of the fighting that would likely break out as someone tries to fill the power vacuum might, however.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    Yes, yes I do .
    And as strange as it may sound, I'm curious as to what your 'Founding Fathers' would have thought about this, considering that they were well aware of a time (prior to the industrial revolution) , when only monarchy's held the equivalent of the wealth of the "1%" that you talked about , and ... , well all your deceleration of independence & bill of rights point to them trying to get the American ppl AWAY from such localized and centralized points of power & wealth .

    Having said that , I do not believe that we (as humans) have yet a perfect monetary system .
    I also see the flaws and failures (not all) of all the major systems proposed so far .
    I also see the dangers in extrimism, not just religious but financial as well .

    And as crazy as it may sound, I'd support a limiting of wealth of individuals, on a global scale .
    Something "comfortable" , around the $50 million range , with anything more going into a central education, health & research departments of each country .

    Now I know that there are ppl who'd consider themselves poor with 50M in the bank .
    And my heart goes out to those poor TRIBBLE, really . :rolleyes:

    But if they spend their 50 Mil but earn more, that's still theirs to keep, as long as they don't go over that number .




    ... see, while I do agree that it takes money to make money, I also saw this show called Hoarders, and frankly that is what those "1%" are doing, nothing more, nothing less, and at this rate, the money making money will take them to a point where in say 200 years, they will have nearly everything while the country goes bankrupt , as per the Pok
  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2015
    vamank wrote: »
    I have two Galors that have been sitting for months. I rather hold them in inventory and hope that they go up sharply because Cryptic releases a Cardi faction then to sell them for what they are worth now.

    So any kind of exchange management will only create a underground economy. There is already for some ships once they become so rare that they are worth more then the exchange max of 500 million EC. Cryptic already tried to manage the exchange by putting a cap and many players like myself just sell privately.

    Now if anyone starts with the whole, that is greed or doesnt understand how to accumulate that kind of EC should just not bothering replying.

    Only 1 ship worth more than 500 mill currently. And even then it's T5 so it's a vanity item.

    And it worth so much until Cryptic releases an T6 version of it.
    Tck7dQ2.jpg
    Dahar Master Mary Sue                                               Fleet Admiral Bloody Mary
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The expreriment is no better or worse than yours, the way you even drew the distribution was off to begine with, it shouldve been the top 20 of all of the classes combined got the A's, but if your going to move goalposts anyways. Mine just doesnt fit your narrative, but is as relevant, if not more. Your whole point was based on the issuance of the wealth of grades, and the fairness or lack thereof.

    There is not top 20 classes, there was only 20 students in 1 class, with 14 possible A's to be distributed for the whole, just like wealth can be distributed amongst the people.

    The motivator is the wealth because thats that the supply inyour supply/demand example, the output of the student is the demand. The aggregate output of the amount of work actually put out to earn a grade. You directly correlated the grades to money, which is a motivator. Some students would try as hard, for the sake of knowledge, but human nature dictates that vast majority would
    eventually figure out the input/output issue and decise that its not worth putting out A work for a C grade, because like it or not thats what humans do.

    A few will keep working at thier level, because of other motivations, others will test the waters down to where they find there effort equates to their outcome. Others will "Change teachers or schools/systems", i.e. move to a better economy. Eitherway, the amount of effort and output has dropped, and so would the pool of grades/wealth because an economies wealth is based on aggregate output. Rinse lather, repeat.

    Because students haven't ever had to actually live this lifestyle, than people will argue the system can never work but, given enough time and, a different motivational purpose, it would undoubtedly work itself out.

    This would hold true in the world also, as either it will work or, people will simply attempt to wipe out the human race or, at least the majority who would oppose each other.

    The latter, sounds kind of like what is happening around the world already!

    What if no1 in the world showed compassion and, instead the world was simply dog eat dog? Than, those with wealth, would require security or, protect themselves.

    Those stricken by disasters, would receive no aid from anyone.

    Countries failing, would simply recoup or, whither away.

    If financial wealth, is the only true motivation in life, than it is a wretched life and, would have accomplished so little in the end!!!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    What if no1 in the world showed compassion and, instead the world was simply dog eat dog?
    We might actually make it off this rock.
    Those stricken by disasters, would receive no aid from anyone.

    Countries failing, would simply recoup or, whither away.
    That also happens when everything is being spent on pensions, benefits, entitlements and other social programs. We're maybe two decades away from that becoming a major issue here in the US, as in an issue which comes to dominate every aspect of life.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    We might actually make it off this rock.

    Highly doubtful, big time!!!
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    Actually what is preposterous is expecting non stop investment on one hand and digging a bigger and bigger debt hole that encompasses not only your generation but your sons and grandsons as well .
    Yes, it is insanity. And to think, all it's buying is creature comforts for the baby boomers.
    Highly doubtful, big time!!!
    Clearly it is to you. I just can't share your vision for a utopia without knowing it would quickly succumb to relative barbarism. If it could work, it would have worked in the USSR.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Because students haven't ever had to actually live this lifestyle, than people will argue the system can never work but, given enough time and, a different motivational purpose, it would undoubtedly work itself out.

    This would hold true in the world also, as either it will work or, people will simply attempt to wipe out the human race or, at least the majority who would oppose each other.

    The latter, sounds kind of like what is happening around the world already!

    What if no1 in the world showed compassion and, instead the world was simply dog eat dog? Than, those with wealth, would require security or, protect themselves.

    Those stricken by disasters, would receive no aid from anyone.

    Countries failing, would simply recoup or, whither away.

    If financial wealth, is the only true motivation in life, than it is a wretched life and, would have accomplished so little in the end!!!

    Your whole point was the income inequality of "Capitalistic Greed", now your are moving the goal posts saying that income isnt the motivator, although you "lesson" directly correlated to income. Lets, this once humor you....

    What motivational purpose are you suggesting? The barrell of a firearm? The warm fuzzies from a job well done? Justin Beiber duct tape? Maybe that poster ofthe cute kitten saying "hang in there"? A person gauges their work on wether they percieve their inputs being equal to or exceeded by their outputs. Outputs are many different factors thst motivate, but the majority of people, its being able to pay for things that they want or need.

    Money is the most common way to do that in any economy. A persons feels their inputs are noticably greater than thier outputs, they lose motivation and either reduce their inputs or they find a place that their inputs to outputs are equivalent. Its that simple. Please stop moving the goal posts and talking in circles.
  • tigrovaya13akulatigrovaya13akula Member Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    nesomumi2 wrote: »
    you don't like the price, make it your self.
    it seams that you are delusional about how you get things, and that things are cheap to make, and effortless to get.
    if it is so, then hey, by all means, you do it. i dont pay for nothing.
    if you don't wont to do things above, then you will pay.
    i didn't grind R&D lvl's 20 for 6 mounts so you could buy things for a million.
    for a million you can craft it your self.
    Why are things on the exchange expensive? Because they are expensive to make.

    For each lockbox ship, on average, 250 lockbox keys have to be consumed. (675m EC)

    For each crtd4 UR weapon, 3 crtd3 weapons fail. (30m EC)

    For each strike ship or sheshar, 100 promo packs have to be opened. (850m EC)

    Because keys cost 2.5m, all the loot derived from keys costs what it does.

    These prices aren't just made up from scratch, they closely reflect the cost of making ships, weapons, etc.

    If they were significantly cheaper, people could only lose money by making weapons and opening boxes, and people wouldn't do it.

    you 2 guys GET IT. Period.

    Ok OP, let's see Season 9.5 came out, what a year ago? With never clicking "Finish Now" I've gotten 2 schools to 20, 2 others to 16 & 17 and the rest are level 15. ie/ergo I can craft the special items/stuff (IF you also have the REQUIRED R&D doff) ; which can go for a few hundred K ec to millions on the exchange; unless you have good luck with the RnG-gods for opening lockboxes.

    That's just the beginning though: you ALSO must collect the mats to craft the components to make the stuff to sell the stuff on the Exchange.

    Ex. I'm now starting to craft TR116B's --- 7 of the components are VR and also require Ref Dil to make. 4 of them need 1 Dentarium & 500 refDil EACH --- that's 2000 refDil right there. The other 3 comp's also need VR mats AND 4000 refDil to make -- EACH.

    If you can do basic math, that's 14,000 refined Dilitium to craft just ONE (1) TR116B Sniper Rifle. Not to mention the 20-hour crafting timegate (for the item itself) & the cumulative timegates for the other needed components.

    Not some piece of "Vendor Trash" that you'd pay a few thousand EC for in the Auction House ;):rolleyes:
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Your whole point was the income inequality of "Capitalistic Greed", now your are moving the goal posts saying that income isnt the motivator, although you "lesson" directly correlated to income. Lets, this once humor you....

    What motivational purpose are you suggesting? The barrell of a firearm? The warm fuzzies from a job well done? Justin Beiber duct tape? Maybe that poster ofthe cute kitten saying "hang in there"? A person gauges their work on wether they percieve their inputs being equal to or exceeded by their outputs. Outputs are many different factors thst motivate, but the majority of people, its being able to pay for things that they want or need.

    Money is the most common way to do that in any economy. A persons feels their inputs are noticably greater than thier outputs, they lose motivation and either reduce their inputs or they find a place that their inputs to outputs are equivalent. Its that simple. Please stop moving the goal posts and talking in circles.

    My example, was mimicking the other example, only in a capitalism perspective, while theirs was supposed to represent a socialism perspective so, I fail to see how you are confused.

    I simply stated, that if we remove wealth from my example and, made it more like a social example, that it can work. Provided there is a different form of motivation, besides grades or wealth.

    The notion of wealth, being the driving force behind motivation to succeed, it's what such a society I argue against, wants you to accept as right!

    Not that it is correct!!!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    A business, should already know the risk of employing people, they shouldn't be any more allowed to profit off of some ones death, anymore than if the same employee quit, got fired, retired, etc.

    Do you even understand the concept of mitigated loss?
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azniadeet wrote: »
    Do you even understand the concept of mitigated loss?

    Do you understand, the immoral reasoning, behind dead peasants insurance?
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Shadow, do you understand that companies in the US are required to have insurance? Seriously its law.

    But not dead peasants insurance!!!

    There is no law requiring that or, did you not look into what that kind of insurance is?

    Here, let me link that for you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate-owned_life_insurance

    http://www.deadpeasantinsurance.com/

    http://www.law360.com/articles/14609/wal-mart-settles-dead-peasant-insurance-suit
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azrael605 wrote: »
    I looked, but its just more tinfoil hat type bovine fecal matter. Wikipedia BTW is the least reliable possible source of information you could reference.

    That's why there is more than 1 referance!!! :rolleyes:

    Here, let me give you some more.

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7438906

    https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/can-your-employer-make-money-on-your-death-corporate-owned-life-insurance-policies

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB101916548622630040
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Do you understand, the immoral reasoning, behind dead peasants insurance?

    I see absolutely nothing immoral about it whatsoever.

    Again, do you understand the concept of mitigated loss?

    You don't seem to understand that insurance protects you from things that you DON'T want to see happen...
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azniadeet wrote: »
    I see absolutely nothing immoral about it whatsoever.

    Again, do you understand the concept of mitigated loss?

    You don't seem to understand that insurance protects you from things that you DON'T want to see happen...

    I see, you have absolutely, no moral fiber in you what so ever!

    The company, stands to lose little to nothing, when a low wage worker dies!

    They are replaceable easily and, most often at no expense!

    To say that a company, need profit off of these people, is immoral and, has been winning lawsuits in court!

    If you own a company, than I hope your company faces one some day!

    If the company you work for, takes one out on you, than maybe your family will understand how immoral it is, when you are dead and, your employer gets a big fat check for it!

    Maybe the law should change, allowing me to take out fire/flood insurance on a neighbors/strangers home, because it might damage the value of my home, you know, so I can mitigate my losses!

    Because, it would protect me from something happening, that I didn't want to happen!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    The company, stands to lose little to nothing, when a low wage worker dies!

    They are replaceable easily and, most often at no expense!

    So you've proven have absolutely no knowledge of business management.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I see, you have absolutely, no moral fiber in you what so ever!

    The company, stands to lose little to nothing, when a low wage worker dies!

    They are replaceable easily and, most often at no expense!

    To say that a company, need profit off of these people, is immoral and, has been winning lawsuits in court!

    Huh?

    One of those sites you posted told me that there are something like 5+ million executives covered by those funky COLI (what you call "dead peasants") policies.

    Yeah, executives are dime a dozen readily replaceable peons.

    And from what I gathered from a quick skim of that wiki, the "actual peasant level" policies were taken out more to be a massive tax shelter for the corporation (monies went into policies tax free, company "borrowed" against the policy tax free again, and took yet another deduction on the interest going back into the policy to "pay back" the borrowing) than for the company to benefit from the death of their workers. A lot of those companies gave some, if not all, the payout from the policy to the family - it was only the despicable companies that didn't give anything out but led to all the reforms...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,891 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Originally Posted by shadowwraith77
    What if no1 in the world showed compassion and, instead the world was simply dog eat dog?
    We might actually make it off this rock.

    And propagate that kind of attitude off Earth ?
    The universe deserves better ... , or to put it in reverse, we don't deserve to leave this mud ball with that attitude .
    That also happens when everything is being spent on pensions, benefits, entitlements and other social programs. We're maybe two decades away from that becoming a major issue here in the US, as in an issue which comes to dominate every aspect of life.

    What you're talking about is what Europe and Japan are facing as well, due to a dramatic increase in elders .
    I'll be honest , I don't know how this can be turned from a burden to an opportunity , but fact is, this is what we (as a species) wanted -- to live longer .




    ... now we have to face the consequences of that, but it comes at a time when we're also struggling with automation & computerization removing more and more tasks (jobs) that those who live longer can / could preform , thus it's a double whammy . Who knows , maybe we'll evolve into a society where after a certain age it will fall to the elderly to care for the newborn , not just from a "they have free time" standpoint , but because they can imprint more knowledge-through-perspective on young minds then their parents can . But even this would be a part time solution as the birth rate keeps dropping in the West ...
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azniadeet wrote: »
    So you've proven have absolutely no knowledge of business management.

    So, that's the best reprise you can come up with?

    Lol, maybe you need try again!

    I don't need any business sense, to see you are an immoral troll!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • millimidgetmillimidget Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I don't need any business sense, to see you are an immoral troll!
    /facepalm

    Personal attacks don't strengthen your case.
    "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    /facepalm

    Personal attacks don't strengthen your case.

    Who cares about strengthening my case, my opinions have already been presented so, like them or not, doesn't matter to me really!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Who cares about strengthening my case, my opinions have already been presented so, like them or not, doesn't matter to me really!

    I kinda feel bad for you.
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