You can treat this thread as a learning experience:
- 5 million EC mark II items are not overpriced if they are CrtD x3.
- Lockbox and lobi ships are not overpriced compared to gaining lobi or opening lock boxes
- The same with consoles like Plasmonic Leech -- you need to gather and open a pile of lockboxes to get one, which will cost a lot more than paying the EC
- The 40-item limit means that people generally are not using the exchange as bulk item storage
- All this tax would do is drive prices higher since the cost would be added in to the sale price.
So you should hope Cryptic ignores this suggestion.
But he is a loyal player. He bought an LTS nearly 6 years ago. He deserves all these thing to be cheap!
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
the only time i find things outrageously overpriced is when MKXII gear is costing more than GOLD MK XIV its actually the case with specific consoles like tac consoles etc.
Actually, an Epic mk IV tac console might have more value than a XIV to someone leveling up an alt, since they can have the best possible console as they level up. They have to wait to level 50 to use the XIV.
A mark IV - VI epic is also even more rare and harder to get than an epic XIV, since it had 8-10 less upgrade chances to go epic.
Supply and demand economies require finite currencies with actual value. Energy credits aren't finite because every drop can be vendored for more from a limitless vendor supply, and almost all will be vendored, since almost all are worthless due to being overshadowed by rep gear and fleet gear, which is generally easily attainable.
So... a functionally unlimited supply, and pretty much nothing of worth being sold for energy credits (that rep and fleet gear costs dilithium not energy credits, in addition to marks or fleet credits)... thus little value outside of the Exchange which just moves it around, not solving the limitless supply.
Now, you could argue that it's a self-solving problem since everyone can simply acquire more currency, and thus everyone can reach the top, but that's not entirely true since those at the top can (and do) also continue to acquire currency, thus maintain the gap right there, and beyond that... money makes money. The people in the top also have the currency to take advantage of the market, to "buy low and sell high" in amounts that are significant. You can't do that when "low" is in the tens of millions and your source of income is drops that only pay out in the thousands.
So the economy is fundamentally broken and supply and demand can't function effectively in that kind of environment.
The amount of currency in the current economy is outrageous, the inflation is so high it's ridiculous (compare the prices of desired items to the vendor prices... it's insane), but the influx of EC is stable (drops continue to vendor for the same prices) thus creating an unhealthy difference between the "haves" and "have nots" which cannot self-correct.
This is bad for the game. Even Cryptic knows this, the Delta Recruit event was partially made to bridge some of that gap... but unfortunately much of it's effect was applied across the board, so while the poor got more EC, so did the rich... thus maintaining the status quo and adding to the inflation. As a result the Exchange prices seem outrageous to some (and they are when you're not sitting on billions of EC) and cheap to others (and, again, they are if you happen to be the one who is sitting on billions of EC).
The "haves" will always set the prices since things will always be priced to what the market will bear (supply and demand, right?)... and the "haves" can bear a lot. Which means the "have nots" will be priced out of partaking in the economy without, say, spending real money on things to sell on the Exchange which just isn't really healthy for a "FTP" game, especially when there are already so many sinks for zen/dilithium that it will likely overwhelm new players which, make no mistake, the "have nots" mostly are... which in turn leads to them leaving the game, and population numbers either stagnating or dropping.
Cryptic has previously tried to rectify this by adding a few sinks, but that doesn't work because in order to drain the EC glut the costs would have to be so high the "have nots" couldn't afford them thus maintaining the gap between "have" and "have not" and simply giving the "haves" more toys. So EC sinks must either remain low, too low to be effective, or be entirely optional... in which case people will simply opt out since no one wants to spend money for stuff you don't need, and if it's not something you don't need it's not really optional.
The only other option is paying for convenience... which they've tried with transwarp EC fees... however that's worthless when it doesn't take that long to go from system-to-system and, worse, there's no reason to replay content, and thus transwarp to it, due to the incredibly reduced rewards for episode replays. I think paying for convenience is the right path though. Personally I think a better idea would be selling "training" for EC... basically XP in a box to help further spec point acquisition. It's something that most people still need, but anyone can acquire with a (relatively) reasonable amount of invested time, and it has a relatively stable value, X amount of hours gets you Y amount of XP. Thus there would be something worthwhile to spend EC on which wouldn't be subject to player perceived value. Maybe also the ability to buy marks and elite marks with EC, allowing people to get further in their rep grinds and the like, and do so faster, at the cost of EC. That would give EC something concrete that people could purchase, something that does have value, and a reason for people to accrue that currency other than to shuffle it around endlessly on the Exchange.
While I think the EC tax would have some merit (though mainly just to stop people from clogging it up using it as extra storage), it would hit everyone, including the "have nots" looking to bridge that gap... thus making it a little self-defeating.
Supply and demand economies require finite currencies with actual value. Energy credits aren't finite because every drop can be vendored for more from a limitless vendor supply, and almost all will be vendored, since almost all are worthless due to being overshadowed by rep gear and fleet gear, which is generally easily attainable.
So... a functionally unlimited supply, and pretty much nothing of worth being sold for energy credits (that rep and fleet gear costs dilithium not energy credits, in addition to marks or fleet credits)... thus little value outside of the Exchange which just moves it around, not solving the limitless supply.
Now, you could argue that it's a self-solving problem since everyone can simply acquire more currency, and thus everyone can reach the top, but that's not entirely true since those at the top can (and do) also continue to acquire currency, thus maintain the gap right there, and beyond that... money makes money. The people in the top also have the currency to take advantage of the market, to "buy low and sell high" in amounts that are significant. You can't do that when "low" is in the tens of millions and your source of income is drops that only pay out in the thousands.
So the economy is fundamentally broken and supply and demand can't function effectively in that kind of environment.
The amount of currency in the current economy is outrageous, the inflation is so high it's ridiculous (compare the prices of desired items to the vendor prices... it's insane), but the influx of EC is stable (drops continue to vendor for the same prices) thus creating an unhealthy difference between the "haves" and "have nots" which cannot self-correct.
This is bad for the game. Even Cryptic knows this, the Delta Recruit event was partially made to bridge some of that gap... but unfortunately much of it's effect was applied across the board, so while the poor got more EC, so did the rich... thus maintaining the status quo and adding to the inflation. As a result the Exchange prices seem outrageous to some (and they are when you're not sitting on billions of EC) and cheap to others (and, again, they are if you happen to be the one who is sitting on billions of EC).
The "haves" will always set the prices since things will always be priced to what the market will bear (supply and demand, right?)... and the "haves" can bear a lot. Which means the "have nots" will be priced out of partaking in the economy without, say, spending real money on things to sell on the Exchange which just isn't really healthy for a "FTP" game, especially when there are already so many sinks for zen/dilithium that it will likely overwhelm new players which, make no mistake, the "have nots" mostly are... which in turn leads to them leaving the game, and population numbers either stagnating or dropping.
Cryptic has previously tried to rectify this by adding a few sinks, but that doesn't work because in order to drain the EC glut the costs would have to be so high the "have nots" couldn't afford them thus maintaining the gap between "have" and "have not" and simply giving the "haves" more toys. So EC sinks must either remain low, too low to be effective, or be entirely optional... in which case people will simply opt out since no one wants to spend money for stuff you don't need, and if it's not something you don't need it's not really optional.
The only other option is paying for convenience... which they've tried with transwarp EC fees... however that's worthless when it doesn't take that long to go from system-to-system and, worse, there's no reason to replay content, and thus transwarp to it, due to the incredibly reduced rewards for episode replays. I think paying for convenience is the right path though. Personally I think a better idea would be selling "training" for EC... basically XP in a box to help further spec point acquisition. It's something that most people still need, but anyone can acquire with a (relatively) reasonable amount of invested time, and it has a relatively stable value, X amount of hours gets you Y amount of XP. Thus there would be something worthwhile to spend EC on which wouldn't be subject to player perceived value. Maybe also the ability to buy marks and elite marks with EC, allowing people to get further in their rep grinds and the like, and do so faster, at the cost of EC. That would give EC something concrete that people could purchase, something that does have value, and a reason for people to accrue that currency other than to shuffle it around endlessly on the Exchange.
While I think the EC tax would have some merit (though mainly just to stop people from clogging it up using it as extra storage), it would hit everyone, including the "have nots" looking to bridge that gap... thus making it a little self-defeating.
Always remember rule #1 to supply and demand economies.
The supplier supplies and, demands more money for said supply!
The other end of that... is if you are leveling and looking for MK VI.. .MK VII or MK VIII weapons... you can now find tons of junk mod Ultra Rares on the market for 200-600k each. That is hardly over priced.
I guess it depends on perception. It's hard to remember all the way back to when I started playing, but I'm pretty sure that on my first character, when I was in the lv30-40 range, I didn't have 200k total, let alone enough to blow 200k each on individual weapons. But, then, I've always been lousy at earning gold/creds/whatever in MMOs. :P
(Of course, I also was fine with just using mission rewards for my gear, so it wasn't a big issue....)
And now, I just craft Mk II's and upgrade them. As long as it isn't anything with [DMG]x2-3 or [PvP], it's usually good enough.
CO (Champions Online) uses a system similar to that the OP suggests--which has 2 major drawbacks.
first off, because it costs to post, it INCREASES (not decreases) the cost of posted items. people looking to sell stuff inevitably pass on any increased cost to the consumer. Secondly, it prevents the poor guy that's lucky enough to get that ultra-rare drop from being able to post it at a rate commiserate with it's actual value.
In the end, the only real benefit for having an exchange fee is that it borks those players that are using the exchange as extra storage space.
Yes, of course the seller will pass along the posting feee. You want 100k, you post it for $114k, but then the posting fee goes up. With 1%, 1mil items cost 10,000 to post per day. My thinking is that when some idiot wants to be an outlier, and post his gear for 200k, and 3 other similars are on the exchange for 100k, that seller is going to be out his posting fee. Now you could say when the first 3 sell, Captain greedy gets his price eventually. But I feel he shouldnt get to make big jumps from the current market rate and be able to make things inflate so fast. Gambling that his lots will move at insane above market prices costs him. And keeps prices going slightly lower with each under cutter, instead of fat 100k per post jumps. It also might make prices come out of the millions, and back in the hundred thousands where they should be, since vendor trash hasnt gone up to match dealing with lots in the millions.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
We all hate it. Gear priced so outrageously you assume the seller is using the exchange for storage and or insanely greedy.
What about a 1% of total lot price posting fee that charges 1% for every day item is on exchange, maxing out at 14 days before the item is returned to you?
Example, you post an item for $100,000. The posting fee is 1% for every 24 hours its on the exchange. If it sells in 1 minute, its 1%, if it sells in 23 hrs and 59 minutes, its 1%. You get 99,000 EC back on a 100G lot. But if you were greedy, and overpriced for the item, and it sat on the exchange for 14 days, the item is returned to you, and 14,000 deducted from your bank account. And the system would require you to put that $14,000 in as a deposit to make sure you were good for it up front. If you keep putting up the same item priced so bad it wont sell, it hurts the SELLER'S wallet for their greed.
Would this be a fair system for sellers and buyers to help make sure things are priced to sell? Instead of asking insane prices for low end gear? Can this be the cure for exchange inflation?
Whether we like it or not this is a player run economy and people have a right to charge what they want on the exchange. You as a consumer have the right to decide whether to buy it or not.
I go on the exchange and see things i want but if i don't have the ec to buy to it, i go without, or i do what i can to earn the ec to buy it. Theres nothing on the exchange that requires you to have it or you can't play the game. Its all nice to haves not must haves
I won't deny another player the opportunity to get virtual rich for listing an item at a high price as its a choice whether to pay what is being asked.
But he is a loyal player. He bought an LTS nearly 6 years ago. He deserves all these thing to be cheap!
I didnt buy LTS. I subbed and cut it just short of 400 days. Then they went free to play. Im just annoyed, even committing to NOT gambling, gambling has infected everything now and is ruining even the small comforts in the game, when I had settled on just being a story player and not trying to have the best gear. In 5 years, I havnt STFd even ONCE.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
This post takes me back to one I came across several months ago. Where the person who started the thread, wanted Cryptic to introduce a weekly/monthly cost for the upkeep of ships we have on our roster even though we may not use them. That didn't end so well either.
But I get the impression of and I hate the term myself "Entitlement" from the OP. You say your looking back on how the game was. Yes its evolved the same as almost every other aspect of the game. Some being more popular with the player base than others. But hey if you've got a gripe with the game, so be it. But if you don't like it and I'm sorry to say this but "There's the door" or in this case the exit/uninstall button for STO.
Personally I think the prices are pretty much spot on where they are, given what it takes in the way of zen and/or Ec to obtain one in the first place. I'll concede that Cryptic could put an ec stink or two into the game. Hell, I'd pay to flush out the interior of my ships the way I want to, similar to the personal/guild dimensions in Trion's.
I'll also concede that it doesn't help when people buy up the cheaper items and flip them from a profit. I wont condemn them for it as I've done it myself, and more recently got into an argument in game this very morning with someone who radically under priced a bunch of items that I happened across.
You know what OP, I say to Cryptic, go a head tax the exchange like you want, and when prices skyrocket for items as Cidjack mentioned White duty officers amongst other things increase in price and get pushed further beyond the reach of the "casual" player, well they wont have far to look. As far as I'm concerned this post is on par with those screaming for a raise on the dilithium refining cap.
Thanks for mostly agreeing with me. The way Im seeing it, my plan hurts the super rich more than the poor, in time. If the poor are wheeln and dealing in the 10-100Ks, vendor trash easily covers our posting fees if an item sits 14 days. But those dealing in the millions, it starts to hurt posting and letting lots sit with million dollar tags on them. Eventually, they realise dealing in the millions hurts to much, biggest ticket items come back to the 100Ks, and getting to 1 million for the best thing on the market is rare. It brings prices back to vendor trash supporting levels. Back when this game started. Then ideally, 1 key was worth 1 million. Heck, Cryptic could lock that price. That means $10 for a pack of keys gets you 10 SUPER pieces of gear. With the cost to be decked out so easily within the average players reach, more will buy keys and 80% player base will be middle class, 5% rich, 15% poor because they are still too stubborn to plunk down a 10 spot.
Its just digital goods. But when you have to pay 100s of dollars to super deck a toon, only a tiny portion of the internet whales will do it. As opposed to 80% of your players all feeling super wealthy in game for about $20 a month.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
The exchange prices are fine. If they weren't, nobody would buy the TRIBBLE that gets posted until the prices went down to reasonable levels. You're just poor, OP.
Edit: It's posts like this that make me wish the STO forums had an upvote/downvote system like the ones for W*rld of W*rcraft. That way, the devs can see at a glance which ideas are generally liked by the playerbase and which ones they utterly despise.
The OP's would probably be buried in the negative by now.
I didnt buy LTS. I subbed and cut it just short of 400 days. Then they went free to play. Im just annoyed, even committing to NOT gambling, gambling has infected everything now and is ruining even the small comforts in the game, when I had settled on just being a story player and not trying to have the best gear. In 5 years, I havnt STFd even ONCE.
I disagree that anything lockbox or crafting related is "needed" outside of PUG PVP and advanced STFs. You might want them but you don't "need" them.
If you play STFs at normal difficulty you can do them in white or green mark XII gear that costs almost nothing on the exchange -- much of it is "list price" or even less.
You can do them in a T5 or free event ship, without any special consoles or traits.
That's ignoring the free VR XI - XII gear that you can get from the reputation daily and hourly boxes which only cost 7.5 - 15K EC and give you a little dil in return.
Thanks for mostly agreeing with me. The way Im seeing it, my plan hurts the super rich more than the poor, in time. If the poor are wheeln and dealing in the 10-100Ks, vendor trash easily covers our posting fees if an item sits 14 days. But those dealing in the millions, it starts to hurt posting and letting lots sit with million dollar tags on them. Eventually, they realise dealing in the millions hurts to much, biggest ticket items come back to the 100Ks, and getting to 1 million for the best thing on the market is rare. It brings prices back to vendor trash supporting levels. Back when this game started. Then ideally, 1 key was worth 1 million. Heck, Cryptic could lock that price. That means $10 for a pack of keys gets you 10 SUPER pieces of gear. With the cost to be decked out so easily within the average players reach, more will buy keys and 80% player base will be middle class, 5% rich, 15% poor because they are still too stubborn to plunk down a 10 spot.
Its just digital goods. But when you have to pay 100s of dollars to super deck a toon, only a tiny portion of the internet whales will do it. As opposed to 80% of your players all feeling super wealthy in game for about $20 a month.
Sorry, but no.
Your scheme means that the big-ticket items go up in price to cover the tax or disappear off the exchange entirely.
Someone is not going to open 200 lock boxes and put the items on the exchange unless they can make a profit doing it. Them making a profit is WIN WIN for them and buyers because:
- A person can buy a lock box ship for a guaranteed price in EC with no gambling
- They can also buy all the other lock box contents for EC with no gambling.
Personally I'm thankful to the "rich" player who bought hundreds of keys and then put a Xindi Olaen on the exchange for only 89 million EC. I bought it and am flying it now. That was much better for me than needing to open 100+ lock boxes and still having a chance of not getting it.
Your scheme would not have dropped the price of a lock box ship down to 1 million. It would have been 100+ million or not there at all.
I disagree that anything lockbox or crafting related is "needed" outside of PUG PVP and advanced STFs. You might want them but you don't "need" them.
If you play STFs at normal difficulty you can do them in white or green mark XII gear that costs almost nothing on the exchange -- much of it is "list price" or even less.
You can do them in a T5 or free event ship, without any special consoles or traits.
That's ignoring the free VR XI - XII gear that you can get from the reputation daily and hourly boxes which only cost 7.5 - 15K EC and give you a little dil in return.
I agree with this assestment, you do not need the items in the lockbox to play the game. I do not use ANY of the traits in the lockboxes on my toons, and my enjoyment of the game is perfect.
This whole discussion is boiling down to Haves vs. Have nots, and P2W vs F2P.
You need the P2Ws and the Whales, they are the ones who sell ZEN on the dil exchange, they are the ones selling promo R&D packs and keys. They are the one's F2Pers turn to make the lockboxes work in the first place.
Please stop trying to bite the hand that makes your game easier.
Your scheme means that the big-ticket items go up in price to cover the tax or disappear off the exchange entirely.
Someone is not going to open 200 lock boxes and put the items on the exchange unless they can make a profit doing it. Them making a profit is WIN WIN for them and buyers because:
- A person can buy a lock box ship for a guaranteed price in EC with no gambling
- They can also buy all the other lock box contents for EC with no gambling.
Personally I'm thankful to the "rich" player who bought hundreds of keys and then put a Xindi Olaen on the exchange for only 89 million EC. I bought it and am flying it now. That was much better for me than needing to open 100+ lock boxes and still having a chance of not getting it.
Your scheme would not have dropped the price of a lock box ship down to 1 million. It would have been 100+ million or not there at all.
You assume people will take their super loot and go home? Or deal in a black market trade system? If black market trading was so good, why isnt it THE way to deal right now? Exchange is faster and convenient, and Id wager that the super crafters and lucky lockboxers would rather lower prices out of the millions for the convenience of moving product faster, rather than some slow a$$ person to person barter system waiting for competing bids to come in, waiting days and weeks to see if a new black market trader will come online to deal with you. I doubt it. What the idiots who sent prices into the delirious millions dont realize is now they have to wait for the super lucky roll or drop to make a living, rather thsn keeping things in the 100Ks where more people could afford more gear choices and product moved faster, rather than waiting on the golden goose to make millions.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
You assume people will take their super loot and go home? Or deal in a black market trade system? If black market trading was so good, why isnt it THE way to deal right now? Exchange is faster and convenient, and Id wager that the super crafters and lucky lockboxers would rather lower prices out of the millions for the convenience of moving product faster, rather than some slow a$$ person to person barter system waiting for competing bids to come in, waiting days and weeks to see if a new black market trader will come online to deal with you. I doubt it. What the idiots who sent prices into the delirious millions dont realize is now they have to wait for the super lucky roll or drop to make a living, rather thsn keeping things in the 100Ks where more people could afford more gear choices and product moved faster, rather than waiting on the golden goose to make millions.
Your wrong.
I'm on the trade channel constantly and that's where a lot of extremely rare items get sold for ungodly amounts of money. Such as the Voth butt-plug... :P and they sell just fine.
People will pay what an item is worth, I enjoy buying and selling lockbox items for set prices. I would ask the OP to define 'Outrageous' after he has opened 300 boxes and not gotten a single damned ship. :rolleyes:
Capitalism is the best way, so he can take his socialism back to Europe. Oh wait, Europe is going bankrupt and descending into social chaos... Gee I guess that proves how amazing socialism and economic regulation is for fostering growth and 'equalizing' pay.
You assume people will take their super loot and go home? Or deal in a black market trade system? If black market trading was so good, why isnt it THE way to deal right now? Exchange is faster and convenient, and Id wager that the super crafters and lucky lockboxers would rather lower prices out of the millions for the convenience of moving product faster, rather than some slow a$$ person to person barter system waiting for competing bids to come in, waiting days and weeks to see if a new black market trader will come online to deal with you. I doubt it. What the idiots who sent prices into the delirious millions dont realize is now they have to wait for the super lucky roll or drop to make a living, rather thsn keeping things in the 100Ks where more people could afford more gear choices and product moved faster, rather than waiting on the golden goose to make millions.
In-person trading is not black market. It's not against the TOS, it's done using a feature developed by Cryptic, and people announce their items right in the chat channels.
People use the exchange now because it is more convenient. But if your taxes and price caps took effect then the items would disappear from the exchange and people would make the greater effort to trade directly. If you can get 90 million EC for a lock box ship trading directly but only 10 million on the exchange, then trading in person is worth the extra effort.
You scheme might help gold farmers though, since you'd remove the legit sales from the exchange which makes their service seem better despite the risks of being banned and of credit card or identity theft.
Also, since you consider for example the CrtDx3 prices ridiculous, why don't you see the work that goes into making one? Try crafting 2-3 to rule out beginner's luck. Once you've experienced the work involved come back and tell us if you still think the price of one should be 10K(?).
Oh please. The money is there in abundance, and even half-azzing it you can pull a couple million a day without having to grind, spent actual money, get help from others, really anything other than just paying attention to the market and a little bit to the forums. If you look and some prices and go 'You want that much for THAT? Is this a joke?" I can't argue there. However if you're looking at something you want and simply can't afford it, there is nothing stopping you from solving that problem. Its such a non-problem, and people embarrass themselves even bringing it up.
Your scheme means that the big-ticket items go up in price to cover the tax or disappear off the exchange entirely.
Someone is not going to open 200 lock boxes and put the items on the exchange unless they can make a profit doing it. Them making a profit is WIN WIN for them and buyers because:
- A person can buy a lock box ship for a guaranteed price in EC with no gambling
- They can also buy all the other lock box contents for EC with no gambling.
Personally I'm thankful to the "rich" player who bought hundreds of keys and then put a Xindi Olaen on the exchange for only 89 million EC. I bought it and am flying it now. That was much better for me than needing to open 100+ lock boxes and still having a chance of not getting it.
Your scheme would not have dropped the price of a lock box ship down to 1 million. It would have been 100+ million or not there at all.
There is no guarantee of prices ever, because it is a player run exchange, meaning they can change at any given second.
I agree with this assestment, you do not need the items in the lockbox to play the game. I do not use ANY of the traits in the lockboxes on my toons, and my enjoyment of the game is perfect.
This whole discussion is boiling down to Haves vs. Have nots, and P2W vs F2P.
You need the P2Ws and the Whales, they are the ones who sell ZEN on the dil exchange, they are the ones selling promo R&D packs and keys. They are the one's F2Pers turn to make the lockboxes work in the first place.
Please stop trying to bite the hand that makes your game easier.
Easier on who? Yes, they make thing available to those with little sometimes at a decent price but, in other aspects if there is no limit, they don't and won't make it easy on anyone but the wealthy.
I'm on the trade channel constantly and that's where a lot of extremely rare items get sold for ungodly amounts of money. Such as the Voth butt-plug... :P and they sell just fine.
People will pay what an item is worth, I enjoy buying and selling lockbox items for set prices. I would ask the OP to define 'Outrageous' after he has opened 300 boxes and not gotten a single damned ship. :rolleyes:
Capitalism is the best way, so he can take his socialism back to Europe. Oh wait, Europe is going bankrupt and descending into social chaos... Gee I guess that proves how amazing socialism and economic regulation is for fostering growth and 'equalizing' pay.
*the mother of all eye-rolls*
Captialism, isn't the best either, seeing how the U.S. has an ever increasing debt, while the wealthiest never need contribute to that debt hardly.
Always done on the backs of the least wealthy citizens, while letting the poorest whither away.
I used to play a horrible MMO that uses this system..
Oh what the heck.. I'll just say it.. Guild Wars 2 uses this very system for it's market.
It makes no difference. As stated a thousand times, people re-coup the fee by raising the price. There are still plenty of items that cost a thousand times the 'average' players monthly income all over the market. If anything, things in that game are more expensive then STO.
Overall, the same thing is true of both systems. There is one way to combat high market prices and that's to not pay it. If someone else decides to pay it, then fine.. the price was in a range that someone found to be fair. If they don't, the price comes down.
The fee to list goods would have the same effect that it did in GW2. It would hinder the 'average' player with a small pool of funds trying to sell found loot and encourage people to use trade channels instead of the games 'in game' system. It should also be noted that GW2 has a problem with players cheating one another because people to try and trade off the exchange.
There is no guarantee of prices ever, because it is a player run exchange, meaning they can change at any given second.
Easier on who? Yes, they make thing available to those with little sometimes at a decent price but, in other aspects if there is no limit, they don't and won't make it easy on anyone but the wealthy.
Captialism, isn't the best either, seeing how the U.S. has an ever increasing debt, while the wealthiest never need contribute to that debt hardly.
Always done on the backs of the least wealthy citizens, while letting the poorest whither away.
The price is guaranteed to be whatever it is currently, as opposed to opening lock boxes, where even if you open 300 there is a chance you could still not get a ship.
In other words, if there are 5 Olaen ships on the exchange with prices from 88 - 100 million EC, then you can sell 40-50 keys and get a ship. If you already sold the keys the day before you will get the 88 million EC ship. If you need to go buy keys and sell them you might miss out and pay 100 million EC.
With the lock boxes, opening 50 of the Undine box gave you only a 19% chance of getting a ship. 100% is much better than 19%.
Captialism, isn't the best either, seeing how the U.S. has an ever increasing debt, while the wealthiest never need contribute to that debt hardly.
Always done on the backs of the least wealthy citizens, while letting the poorest whither away.
I'll note that a little history lesson will show you that everything was fantastic up until Socialism was introduced during the Great Depression, and like any good disease it eventually infected our economy as well as our culture.
That being said the United States is STILL the richest and most powerful nation in the world Economically, Political and Militarily. I don't expect that to last much longer if we keep chasing Socialism however.
I would follow this up with an analysis of how most of the debt is owed to ourselves in some sort of strange cycle that could be eliminated without paying most of it. But I don't have the time for that and it would likely derail the thread, Moving on!
Conclusion, Socialism sucks and keep it away from my game!
I used to play a horrible MMO that uses this system..
Oh what the heck.. I'll just say it.. Guild Wars 2 uses this very system for it's market.
It makes no difference. As stated a thousand times, people re-coup the fee by raising the price. There are still plenty of items that cost a thousand times the 'average' players monthly income all over the market. If anything, things in that game are more expensive then STO.
Overall, the same thing is true of both systems. There is one way to combat high market prices and that's to not pay it. If someone else decides to pay it, then fine.. the price was in a range that someone found to be fair. If they don't, the price comes down.
The fee to list goods would have the same effect that it did in GW2. It would hinder the 'average' player with a small pool of funds trying to sell found loot and encourage people to use trade channels instead of the games 'in game' system. It should also be noted that GW2 has a problem with players cheating one another because people to try and trade off the exchange.
Overall, the idea doesn't work.
The thing is, there is already a trade channel so, black marketing has been around for quite awhile and, charging a taxation on the exchange, isn't really going to keep people from using it either.
Heck, DDO uses this system on 2 different auction house systems, 1 for regular game currency and, 1 for astral shards and, even they have people black marketing items off but, you know what?
I'll note that a little history lesson will show you that everything was fantastic up until Socialism was introduced during the Great Depression, and like any good disease it eventually infected our economy as well as our culture.
That being said the United States is STILL the richest and most powerful nation in the world Economically, Political and Militarily. I don't expect that to last much longer if we keep chasing Socialism however.
I would follow this up with an analysis of how most of the debt is owed to ourselves in some sort of strange cycle that could be eliminated without paying most of it. But I don't have the time for that and it would likely derail the thread, Moving on!
Conclusion, Socialism sucks and keep it away from my game!
/end
Socialism isn't the issue nor, was it being implemented during the great depression, because if they didn't actually provide some means of socialism, than you might not be alive today when your elder's died of starvation.
Many of our debt issues, stems from our own government spending $ like some teen with a credit card and, no self control on spending.
Providing tons of money in aid to other countries and, the motto of get rich off of other's.
The capitalistic idealism that, people need be wealthy and, not contribute to their fellow citizens, is just how this country is headed.
Humans simply not caring about other humans, unless they deem them worthy of their mercy blessing!!!
America was strong, because they relied on themselves for production, now they rely on other's by outsourcing everything for profit margins.
Socialism isn't the issue nor, was it being implemented during the great depression, because if they didn't actually provide some means of socialism, than you might not be alive today when your elder's died of starvation.
Many of our debt issues, stems from our own government spending $ like some teen with a credit card and, no self control on spending.
Providing tons of money in aid to other countries and, the motto of get rich off of other's.
The capitalistic idealism that, people need be wealthy and, not contribute to their fellow citizens, is just how this country is headed.
Humans simply not caring about other humans, unless they deem them worthy of their mercy blessing!!!
America was strong, because they relied on themselves for production, now they rely on other's by outsourcing everything for profit margins.
Including worker's.
You got one thing right, selfishness is the foundation of all our problems. So it's not selfish to sit on a coach and play video games while single moms have to give half their paycheck to the government so people like that can have free money? (Yes they take that much in Britain)
Selfishness is not exclusive to capitalism it just takes different forms. I've seen China and Soviet Union and I prefer this quite frankly. Don't make the mistake of assuming anything will ever be perfect, just pick the lesser of two evils.
Comments
Actually, an Epic mk IV tac console might have more value than a XIV to someone leveling up an alt, since they can have the best possible console as they level up. They have to wait to level 50 to use the XIV.
A mark IV - VI epic is also even more rare and harder to get than an epic XIV, since it had 8-10 less upgrade chances to go epic.
If a tax was placed on the exchange, prices would rise, for example those common doffs needed for for fleet projectsl just doubled in price.
Supply and demand economies require finite currencies with actual value. Energy credits aren't finite because every drop can be vendored for more from a limitless vendor supply, and almost all will be vendored, since almost all are worthless due to being overshadowed by rep gear and fleet gear, which is generally easily attainable.
So... a functionally unlimited supply, and pretty much nothing of worth being sold for energy credits (that rep and fleet gear costs dilithium not energy credits, in addition to marks or fleet credits)... thus little value outside of the Exchange which just moves it around, not solving the limitless supply.
Now, you could argue that it's a self-solving problem since everyone can simply acquire more currency, and thus everyone can reach the top, but that's not entirely true since those at the top can (and do) also continue to acquire currency, thus maintain the gap right there, and beyond that... money makes money. The people in the top also have the currency to take advantage of the market, to "buy low and sell high" in amounts that are significant. You can't do that when "low" is in the tens of millions and your source of income is drops that only pay out in the thousands.
So the economy is fundamentally broken and supply and demand can't function effectively in that kind of environment.
The amount of currency in the current economy is outrageous, the inflation is so high it's ridiculous (compare the prices of desired items to the vendor prices... it's insane), but the influx of EC is stable (drops continue to vendor for the same prices) thus creating an unhealthy difference between the "haves" and "have nots" which cannot self-correct.
This is bad for the game. Even Cryptic knows this, the Delta Recruit event was partially made to bridge some of that gap... but unfortunately much of it's effect was applied across the board, so while the poor got more EC, so did the rich... thus maintaining the status quo and adding to the inflation. As a result the Exchange prices seem outrageous to some (and they are when you're not sitting on billions of EC) and cheap to others (and, again, they are if you happen to be the one who is sitting on billions of EC).
The "haves" will always set the prices since things will always be priced to what the market will bear (supply and demand, right?)... and the "haves" can bear a lot. Which means the "have nots" will be priced out of partaking in the economy without, say, spending real money on things to sell on the Exchange which just isn't really healthy for a "FTP" game, especially when there are already so many sinks for zen/dilithium that it will likely overwhelm new players which, make no mistake, the "have nots" mostly are... which in turn leads to them leaving the game, and population numbers either stagnating or dropping.
Cryptic has previously tried to rectify this by adding a few sinks, but that doesn't work because in order to drain the EC glut the costs would have to be so high the "have nots" couldn't afford them thus maintaining the gap between "have" and "have not" and simply giving the "haves" more toys. So EC sinks must either remain low, too low to be effective, or be entirely optional... in which case people will simply opt out since no one wants to spend money for stuff you don't need, and if it's not something you don't need it's not really optional.
The only other option is paying for convenience... which they've tried with transwarp EC fees... however that's worthless when it doesn't take that long to go from system-to-system and, worse, there's no reason to replay content, and thus transwarp to it, due to the incredibly reduced rewards for episode replays. I think paying for convenience is the right path though. Personally I think a better idea would be selling "training" for EC... basically XP in a box to help further spec point acquisition. It's something that most people still need, but anyone can acquire with a (relatively) reasonable amount of invested time, and it has a relatively stable value, X amount of hours gets you Y amount of XP. Thus there would be something worthwhile to spend EC on which wouldn't be subject to player perceived value. Maybe also the ability to buy marks and elite marks with EC, allowing people to get further in their rep grinds and the like, and do so faster, at the cost of EC. That would give EC something concrete that people could purchase, something that does have value, and a reason for people to accrue that currency other than to shuffle it around endlessly on the Exchange.
While I think the EC tax would have some merit (though mainly just to stop people from clogging it up using it as extra storage), it would hit everyone, including the "have nots" looking to bridge that gap... thus making it a little self-defeating.
Always remember rule #1 to supply and demand economies.
The supplier supplies and, demands more money for said supply!
The buyer, is simply the fool that feeds them.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I guess it depends on perception. It's hard to remember all the way back to when I started playing, but I'm pretty sure that on my first character, when I was in the lv30-40 range, I didn't have 200k total, let alone enough to blow 200k each on individual weapons. But, then, I've always been lousy at earning gold/creds/whatever in MMOs. :P
(Of course, I also was fine with just using mission rewards for my gear, so it wasn't a big issue....)
And now, I just craft Mk II's and upgrade them. As long as it isn't anything with [DMG]x2-3 or [PvP], it's usually good enough.
Yes, of course the seller will pass along the posting feee. You want 100k, you post it for $114k, but then the posting fee goes up. With 1%, 1mil items cost 10,000 to post per day. My thinking is that when some idiot wants to be an outlier, and post his gear for 200k, and 3 other similars are on the exchange for 100k, that seller is going to be out his posting fee. Now you could say when the first 3 sell, Captain greedy gets his price eventually. But I feel he shouldnt get to make big jumps from the current market rate and be able to make things inflate so fast. Gambling that his lots will move at insane above market prices costs him. And keeps prices going slightly lower with each under cutter, instead of fat 100k per post jumps. It also might make prices come out of the millions, and back in the hundred thousands where they should be, since vendor trash hasnt gone up to match dealing with lots in the millions.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Whether we like it or not this is a player run economy and people have a right to charge what they want on the exchange. You as a consumer have the right to decide whether to buy it or not.
I go on the exchange and see things i want but if i don't have the ec to buy to it, i go without, or i do what i can to earn the ec to buy it. Theres nothing on the exchange that requires you to have it or you can't play the game. Its all nice to haves not must haves
I won't deny another player the opportunity to get virtual rich for listing an item at a high price as its a choice whether to pay what is being asked.
Rayzee
excellentawesome#4589
torgaddon101
raeat
I didnt buy LTS. I subbed and cut it just short of 400 days. Then they went free to play. Im just annoyed, even committing to NOT gambling, gambling has infected everything now and is ruining even the small comforts in the game, when I had settled on just being a story player and not trying to have the best gear. In 5 years, I havnt STFd even ONCE.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
But I get the impression of and I hate the term myself "Entitlement" from the OP. You say your looking back on how the game was. Yes its evolved the same as almost every other aspect of the game. Some being more popular with the player base than others. But hey if you've got a gripe with the game, so be it. But if you don't like it and I'm sorry to say this but "There's the door" or in this case the exit/uninstall button for STO.
Personally I think the prices are pretty much spot on where they are, given what it takes in the way of zen and/or Ec to obtain one in the first place. I'll concede that Cryptic could put an ec stink or two into the game. Hell, I'd pay to flush out the interior of my ships the way I want to, similar to the personal/guild dimensions in Trion's.
I'll also concede that it doesn't help when people buy up the cheaper items and flip them from a profit. I wont condemn them for it as I've done it myself, and more recently got into an argument in game this very morning with someone who radically under priced a bunch of items that I happened across.
You know what OP, I say to Cryptic, go a head tax the exchange like you want, and when prices skyrocket for items as Cidjack mentioned White duty officers amongst other things increase in price and get pushed further beyond the reach of the "casual" player, well they wont have far to look. As far as I'm concerned this post is on par with those screaming for a raise on the dilithium refining cap.
Its just digital goods. But when you have to pay 100s of dollars to super deck a toon, only a tiny portion of the internet whales will do it. As opposed to 80% of your players all feeling super wealthy in game for about $20 a month.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Edit: It's posts like this that make me wish the STO forums had an upvote/downvote system like the ones for W*rld of W*rcraft. That way, the devs can see at a glance which ideas are generally liked by the playerbase and which ones they utterly despise.
The OP's would probably be buried in the negative by now.
I disagree that anything lockbox or crafting related is "needed" outside of PUG PVP and advanced STFs. You might want them but you don't "need" them.
If you play STFs at normal difficulty you can do them in white or green mark XII gear that costs almost nothing on the exchange -- much of it is "list price" or even less.
You can do them in a T5 or free event ship, without any special consoles or traits.
That's ignoring the free VR XI - XII gear that you can get from the reputation daily and hourly boxes which only cost 7.5 - 15K EC and give you a little dil in return.
Sorry, but no.
Your scheme means that the big-ticket items go up in price to cover the tax or disappear off the exchange entirely.
Someone is not going to open 200 lock boxes and put the items on the exchange unless they can make a profit doing it. Them making a profit is WIN WIN for them and buyers because:
- A person can buy a lock box ship for a guaranteed price in EC with no gambling
- They can also buy all the other lock box contents for EC with no gambling.
Personally I'm thankful to the "rich" player who bought hundreds of keys and then put a Xindi Olaen on the exchange for only 89 million EC. I bought it and am flying it now. That was much better for me than needing to open 100+ lock boxes and still having a chance of not getting it.
Your scheme would not have dropped the price of a lock box ship down to 1 million. It would have been 100+ million or not there at all.
I agree with this assestment, you do not need the items in the lockbox to play the game. I do not use ANY of the traits in the lockboxes on my toons, and my enjoyment of the game is perfect.
This whole discussion is boiling down to Haves vs. Have nots, and P2W vs F2P.
You need the P2Ws and the Whales, they are the ones who sell ZEN on the dil exchange, they are the ones selling promo R&D packs and keys. They are the one's F2Pers turn to make the lockboxes work in the first place.
Please stop trying to bite the hand that makes your game easier.
You assume people will take their super loot and go home? Or deal in a black market trade system? If black market trading was so good, why isnt it THE way to deal right now? Exchange is faster and convenient, and Id wager that the super crafters and lucky lockboxers would rather lower prices out of the millions for the convenience of moving product faster, rather than some slow a$$ person to person barter system waiting for competing bids to come in, waiting days and weeks to see if a new black market trader will come online to deal with you. I doubt it. What the idiots who sent prices into the delirious millions dont realize is now they have to wait for the super lucky roll or drop to make a living, rather thsn keeping things in the 100Ks where more people could afford more gear choices and product moved faster, rather than waiting on the golden goose to make millions.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Your wrong.
I'm on the trade channel constantly and that's where a lot of extremely rare items get sold for ungodly amounts of money. Such as the Voth butt-plug... :P and they sell just fine.
People will pay what an item is worth, I enjoy buying and selling lockbox items for set prices. I would ask the OP to define 'Outrageous' after he has opened 300 boxes and not gotten a single damned ship. :rolleyes:
Capitalism is the best way, so he can take his socialism back to Europe. Oh wait, Europe is going bankrupt and descending into social chaos... Gee I guess that proves how amazing socialism and economic regulation is for fostering growth and 'equalizing' pay.
*the mother of all eye-rolls*
In-person trading is not black market. It's not against the TOS, it's done using a feature developed by Cryptic, and people announce their items right in the chat channels.
People use the exchange now because it is more convenient. But if your taxes and price caps took effect then the items would disappear from the exchange and people would make the greater effort to trade directly. If you can get 90 million EC for a lock box ship trading directly but only 10 million on the exchange, then trading in person is worth the extra effort.
You scheme might help gold farmers though, since you'd remove the legit sales from the exchange which makes their service seem better despite the risks of being banned and of credit card or identity theft.
Also, since you consider for example the CrtDx3 prices ridiculous, why don't you see the work that goes into making one? Try crafting 2-3 to rule out beginner's luck. Once you've experienced the work involved come back and tell us if you still think the price of one should be 10K(?).
There is no guarantee of prices ever, because it is a player run exchange, meaning they can change at any given second.
Easier on who? Yes, they make thing available to those with little sometimes at a decent price but, in other aspects if there is no limit, they don't and won't make it easy on anyone but the wealthy.
Captialism, isn't the best either, seeing how the U.S. has an ever increasing debt, while the wealthiest never need contribute to that debt hardly.
Always done on the backs of the least wealthy citizens, while letting the poorest whither away.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Oh what the heck.. I'll just say it.. Guild Wars 2 uses this very system for it's market.
It makes no difference. As stated a thousand times, people re-coup the fee by raising the price. There are still plenty of items that cost a thousand times the 'average' players monthly income all over the market. If anything, things in that game are more expensive then STO.
Overall, the same thing is true of both systems. There is one way to combat high market prices and that's to not pay it. If someone else decides to pay it, then fine.. the price was in a range that someone found to be fair. If they don't, the price comes down.
The fee to list goods would have the same effect that it did in GW2. It would hinder the 'average' player with a small pool of funds trying to sell found loot and encourage people to use trade channels instead of the games 'in game' system. It should also be noted that GW2 has a problem with players cheating one another because people to try and trade off the exchange.
Overall, the idea doesn't work.
The price is guaranteed to be whatever it is currently, as opposed to opening lock boxes, where even if you open 300 there is a chance you could still not get a ship.
In other words, if there are 5 Olaen ships on the exchange with prices from 88 - 100 million EC, then you can sell 40-50 keys and get a ship. If you already sold the keys the day before you will get the 88 million EC ship. If you need to go buy keys and sell them you might miss out and pay 100 million EC.
With the lock boxes, opening 50 of the Undine box gave you only a 19% chance of getting a ship. 100% is much better than 19%.
(Source: 1.0 - (1.0-0.0042)^50, odds here: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Undine_Lock_Box )
I'll note that a little history lesson will show you that everything was fantastic up until Socialism was introduced during the Great Depression, and like any good disease it eventually infected our economy as well as our culture.
That being said the United States is STILL the richest and most powerful nation in the world Economically, Political and Militarily. I don't expect that to last much longer if we keep chasing Socialism however.
I would follow this up with an analysis of how most of the debt is owed to ourselves in some sort of strange cycle that could be eliminated without paying most of it. But I don't have the time for that and it would likely derail the thread, Moving on!
Conclusion, Socialism sucks and keep it away from my game!
/end
The thing is, there is already a trade channel so, black marketing has been around for quite awhile and, charging a taxation on the exchange, isn't really going to keep people from using it either.
Heck, DDO uses this system on 2 different auction house systems, 1 for regular game currency and, 1 for astral shards and, even they have people black marketing items off but, you know what?
It still works for that game!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Socialism isn't the issue nor, was it being implemented during the great depression, because if they didn't actually provide some means of socialism, than you might not be alive today when your elder's died of starvation.
Many of our debt issues, stems from our own government spending $ like some teen with a credit card and, no self control on spending.
Providing tons of money in aid to other countries and, the motto of get rich off of other's.
The capitalistic idealism that, people need be wealthy and, not contribute to their fellow citizens, is just how this country is headed.
Humans simply not caring about other humans, unless they deem them worthy of their mercy blessing!!!
America was strong, because they relied on themselves for production, now they rely on other's by outsourcing everything for profit margins.
Including worker's.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You got one thing right, selfishness is the foundation of all our problems. So it's not selfish to sit on a coach and play video games while single moms have to give half their paycheck to the government so people like that can have free money? (Yes they take that much in Britain)
Selfishness is not exclusive to capitalism it just takes different forms. I've seen China and Soviet Union and I prefer this quite frankly. Don't make the mistake of assuming anything will ever be perfect, just pick the lesser of two evils.