We arrived at these figures after a LOT of internal testing. Parsing using different weapon types, comparing to multiple different firing modes, in many various different weapon configurations.
In all of the tests we performed, even after the above changes, Surgical Strikes reliably outperformed every combination of Weapon Type and Firing Mode we tried, once the player had a reasonable amount of +CritH and +CritD.
Those "reasonable amounts" by the way were 15% Crit Chance, and +200 Crit Severity. Values reasonably obtained by many players, and hilarious outstripped by our high-end performers.
So, despite the reductions contained in these Patch Notes, we feel the ability is still desirable by players properly geared to get the most out of it. We encourage anyone interested in how this affects their performance to copy over to Redshirt and try it out for themselves. Your feedback is welcome. (Parses of before/after performance would be even better!)
but dear! SS3 is underperforming compared to FAW! "No DPS record has ever been achieved using SS3!". yes, I'm quoting someone who has written in here, and I'm not going to name and shame, who just has a damaged mind. Bort got that covered.
Yes, but in single-target scenarios. If multi-target modes (FAW and CSV) outperform SS when fighting multiple opponents, that's acceptable.
One of the many reason why I'm giving zero regard on that keyboard warrior.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
I'm sure I would, if I'd be inclined to look. :P None of which changes the fact that praxl5 is a PvP-er, really.
So, because a person has been pre-judged by you and reduced to a stereotype he's completely worth not only dismissing but rallied against because he doesn't fit into your "perfect world" ideology?
Dang man, you really need to see a councilor or the clergy over this one.
Rep abilities were rightly curtailed - can you imagine the power creep if you had an unlimited number of Rep abilities (both passive and active) to use at once? The difference between a "fresh" player (or even a DR) and an older toon would just be insurmountable.
And said chasm between a "fresh" player (or even a DR) and an older toon became insurmountable again with the Specialization trees, and subsequent large XP nerfs.
I don't find immunities insurmountable (though a serious issue) because I play as a Sci. For a Tac, I can easily see how it would be frustrating - to time your Alpha perfectly, only to have someone not just defend against it, but to totally (and easily) negate it.
And here's where I honestly don't understand your argument. Remember the 'insurmountable' SS3?! PvP-ers complained loudly, that they couldn't defend themselves against such awesome Alpha-strikes with it, and Devs plz nerf. And now, when ppl finally have some reasonable tools against such Alpha-strikes, you're complaining again that peeps can defend themselves too much!
In fact, reading between Dev blog lines, it looks to me like the Devs are actually, purposely looking for ways to mitigate the vaper-nonsense which is PvP (more shield in PvP, less CrtD, etc; none of which clear yet, but you can notice the Devs being aware of the vaper issue). So from my perspective, all y'all should be rejoicing these situational immunities.
Even as a Sci, I find it quite frustrating - to have something like Destabilizing Resonance Beam come off of it's high CD, only to have someone be totally immune to it's effect. Or to line up to a GW/EWP combo, and then have someone walk it off.
Why, the Fox always thinks the hen house is too guarded, whereas the chickens feel it can't be secured enough. That is the very nature of PvP. Removing immunities is just going back to vaping again.
SS3 was insurmountable - but, let's not forget, it's not the dastardly PvPers that got it fixed. The Devs themselves said it was overperforming. And, looking at their history, that's totally in line with what they do. Release something OP, wait for sales, and then say "Ooops, we didn't know it was that powerful, sry!" and then reign it in.
I, for one, never bought into the notion that Cryptic 'suddenly' realized CrtH x CrtD = too much. PvP-ers, however, cried for a nerf to SS3 really loud. So, it was probably a bit of both.
Actually, I don't like bickering at all. Nor do I really like being in threads like these (which, inevitably, always lead to fighting). All I ever want is to ensure PvE doesn't suffer as a result of a certain percent seeking nerfs. And to remind the Devs of the need of the 99% keeping their lights on. :P
Actually, I don't like bickering at all. Nor do I really like being in threads like these (which, inevitably, always lead to fighting). All I ever want is to ensure PvE doesn't suffer as a result of a certain percent seeking nerfs. And to remind the Devs of the need of the 99% keeping their lights on. :P
But that's the thing...and...that percentage isn't what you think it is. It's not a PvE vs. PvP thing...first. Second of all, you're suggesting that 99% of the players don't give a TRIBBLE about any semblance of balance in the game.
People that don't PvP still care about balance. Folks that care about balance still spend money.
But that's the thing...and...that percentage isn't what you think it is. It's not a PvE vs. PvP thing...first. Second of all, you're suggesting that 99% of the players don't give a TRIBBLE about any semblance of balance in the game.
People that don't PvP still care about balance. Folks that care about balance still spend money.
No, I'm suggesting that for 99% of the playerbase these immunities in PvE are not a problem at all (at least, I never heard a PvE-er complain about it).
And 'balance' in PvE has no meaning anyway. Each Captain is their own Cyrano de Bergerac, fighting a 100 foes at at the same time, and still winning.
Actually, I don't like bickering at all. Nor do I really like being in threads like these (which, inevitably, always lead to fighting). All I ever want is to ensure PvE doesn't suffer as a result of a certain percent seeking nerfs. And to remind the Devs of the need of the 99% keeping their lights on. :P
Let me pitch some hypothetical questions.
If the devs added something that gave you 100% immunity and we wanted it nerfed because it was breaking PvP, would you complain that PvE is suffering?
90% immunity?
80% immunity?
70% immunity?
60% immunity?
50% immunity?
40% immunity?
Why do you feel so threatened for your "PvE experience" if someone asks for a nerf on literal immunity to damage? How overpowered and godmode do you have to be to stop worrying that a nerf might ruin your NPC facerolling?
No, I'm suggesting that for 99% of the playerbase these immunities in PvE are not a problem at all (at least, I never heard a PvE-er complain about it).
You know that folks that PvP have to PvE, right? So any PvPer that complains about something...is a PvE guy/gal complaining about it.
And 'balance' in PvE has no meaning anyway. Each Captain is their own Cyrano de Bergerac, fighting a 100 foes at at the same time, and still winning.
Imagine they do two pilots for a new Superman TV show.
Pilot #1: Superman deals with supervillains, deals with threats to the planet, international issues, intergalactic issues...Superman does...Superman stuff.
Why do you feel so threatened for your "PvE experience" if someone asks for a nerf on literal immunity to damage? How overpowered and godmode do you have to be to stop worrying that a nerf might ruin your NPC facerolling?
Just wondering.
As I outlined before, I'm for the most part not even using said imnunities (except for "Rock 'N Roll" at times), as bravely running away with immunity (pun intended) is not really a PvE thingy, and nor is making Pilot your Primary.
And I believe in staying vigilent, yes. One moment you're having an awesome Intel ship with SS3 and IT, the next it's all nerfed to oblivion. All in the name of a 'balance', of course, that really only benefits PvP.
You know that folks that PvP have to PvE, right? So any PvPer that complains about something...is a PvE guy/gal complaining about it.
Judging by the often very disparaging comments towards PvE(-ers), I was inclined to think PvP-ers don't PvE all that much (outside a necessary grind, maybe). But I honestly have no idea how many actually do.
Do you have the knowledge needed for taking down a player? no you don't. PvPers do, I'm just stating facts and giving you a logical proof, as I really don't care about being an elitist. Try negating this statement.
Negating that statement? Easy as ****.
Do you have the knowledge to play STO? Me too.
Do you have a BSci, a BA, a CFA cert, and an OACP cert? No you don't, I do. Those are facts and as logical a proof as yours that I'm more skilled in PvE than you.
How do my degrees and certification relate to STO PvE? They don't.
How does your knowledge for taking down a player relate to STO PvE? It doesn't.
Considering you guys keep listing things a PvPer deals with which by your own admittance does not occur in PvE making your ability to deal with such things completely irrelevant in PvE, it's mind boggling you keep doing so.
Try listing your ability to deal with things in PvE if you want to claim superiority in PvE, hm?
Or you can keep touting your ability to run marathons as evidence that you're a better sprinter than all sprinters who don't run marathons.
Another one: a PvP premade can go through elite queues, just like mine used to. PvErs can go through elite queues. PvErs are not able to go against the above premade, and it's a proven fact. just ask in the PvP subforum for the aftermatch screenie.
Here we go again. Pointing at PvP as evidence of superiority ability in PvE.
Obviously a PvPer will be better at PvP than PvE.
There are PvPers of all skill levels, and PvEers of all skill levels. Yet your assertion here is that that PvPers automatically mean greater skills than PvEers in everything.
Pointing again at PvP to as evidence in PvE, instead of taking literally 3 minutes to provide evidence of skill in PvE.
Okay, some quick questions to settle the argument for real...
The nature of your questions simply point to you completely and utterly missing my point.
That person keeps claiming that PvPers are more than PvEers, period.
When you make an absolute statement like that, you refer to all all PvPers, all PvEers, in both PvP and PvE.
Are PvPers going to be better than PvEers in PvP? Obviously.
Are PvPers going to be better than PvEers in PvE? Not so obvious.
What evidence is provided to back up the assertion that PvPers are going to be better than PvEers in PvE?
The PvPer's ability to deal with things that don't happen in PvE.
If you're a tourney level Street Fighter player, you're probably going to better than someone who only plays against the AI when going head to head.
That's not evidence that you're going to be better against the AI than that person who only plays against the AI, and only ever practices the exact sequence necessary to beat the AI.
See, it's exceptionally easy to prove a PvPer's claim of superior skill at PvE, by taking literally 3 minutes to parse ISA and upload it. 3 minutes.
Instead, all we ever get is pointing at ability in PvP, the ability to deal with things which don't happen in PvE, as evidence of ability in PvE! It's ridiculous.
This is like a marathon runner saying they're better runners than sprinters (who can't do full marathons because they only ever sprint), then refusing to take a few seconds to sprint 100m.
It's like saying because their targets don't shoot back, the average soldier is better shot than the average competitive shooter. Yeah, the latter aren't going to be as good in a firefight as the former, but claiming that makes them better at a competition is ridiculous.
why would changing immunities to resistance or defense be a horrible thing?
Because Bort. :P No, seriously, remember the big SS3 nerf?! We, as a community, had (strangely enough) reached some sort of an agreement that most could live with: we would have the [Acc] bonus removed from SS3, and that solution seemed to agree with many. Instead, though, Bort just flat-out nerfed SS3 for about 30% total, ignoring any and all forum comprise reached.
So, pardon me for fearing this proposed immunity nerf will go down the exact same path.
Judging by the often very disparaging comments towards PvE(-ers), I was inclined to think PvP-ers don't PvE all that much (outside a necessary grind, maybe). But I honestly have no idea how many actually do.
PvPers aren't the only folks that say disparaging things about certain PvE folks...PvE folks do that too. Much like PvE folks aren't the only folks that say disparaging things about certain PvP folks...PvP folks do that too.
Sometimes pointing to who said something is little more than a distraction from what was said...
as immunity stands in this game its ruining the challenge, ruining the point of a lot of builds, and if its not sorted out soon, as cryptic adds more immunity procs...
we may finally come to what I FEAR- total immunity
which is dumb
SO there really is no fix that I fear from cryptic if the immunity procs are handled as a FORM of defense or resistance EITHER would greatly increase the odds of surviving a dangerous situation but not TOTALLY make it idiot proof to never die...
Ay, there's the rub! This 'problem', as you perceive it, was the inherent result of having Spec trees and Rep Traits to begin with. You can't have thirtysomething Spec points (per branch), and each doing nothing: inevitably some would lead to brief immunities (still highly exaggerated, btw, in practical PvE; but I digress), higher Defense, more CrtH, etc.
You, rather disingenuously, I fear, make it appear as if PvE is way too easy for most players (aka 'godmode'). In reality, however, as witnessed daily on the forum, many ppl are still struggling heavily with Advanced queues even; and any and all alleged 'godmode' really only applies to PvP. I got upset about that with the OP earlier, too: if you want something nerfed because of PvP, just say so; don't try and couch it in a story where PvE is in dire need of it too. Because it isn't.
oh real quick, you mentioned some desire for examples of pvp players vs pve players in their approaches to pve content better or worse right?
heres one off the top of my head,
a pve dps guy will fly along the shielded sides of a borg cube avoiding the unshielded side that the rest of his team may be shooting at, cause what hes going for is a parse, what hes going for is putting damage up on the board... a dead cube cant get more damage
That's funny, because the longer the run, the lower the average DPS is going to be. It's certainly unintuitive - I was in a 50k run just today that took literally 2 minutes and 3 seconds.
PvE knows the flank of structures, and it's a matter of getting into position ASAP as close as possible. Which means they basically travel as a pack, following the same lines (think Racing Line).
We're going to be hitting the same facings as a side effect, not worrying about individual targets.
PvE knows the flank of structures, and it's a matter of getting into position ASAP as close as possible. Which means they basically travel as a pack, following the same lines (think Racing Line).
It is funny watching some of the videos...reminds me of multiboxers sometimes. Like it's one person running all five toons with the way they move.
guys.. LOL anyways I guess its pretty tough to try and explain to someone that santa claus doesn't exist ...
truth is santa claus is fake and it was pvp players that pioneered high damage ....years ago
BUT for someone that believe with every once of their soul that santa claus is real... well, theres no convincing them otherwise:)
Santa is fake?? :eek:
Ok yeah he fake as rubber dog poo BUT i like telling little kids Santa is dead i never get tired of hearing them scream to thier parents about santa dying
Ok yeah he fake as rubber dog poo BUT i like telling little kids Santa is dead i never get tired of hearing them scream to thier parents about santa dying
Why go with Santa's dead? Go with Santa's knows if you've been good or bad...and he's coming!
Aux2batt cruisers isn't the basis for the most top Dps cruisers of today.
god mode is when you can do at least 60k at HSE, or parse 50k solo at ISA. That means all that goes with it, including healing, coordination HSE, at solo ISA it merely what you are doing.
Otherwise, you still need to improve self to get to that point or your not in godmode but merely imagining that you are in godmode.
It is why we had many, many threads of many, many pages about how the Galaxy was a subpar cruiser and needed a buff, for example.
And it can also be quite important for our own financial "safety". Cryptic can always put out something that's more powerful then everythnig we got before. That is what level cap increases tend to do, too.
But if they do it with every single thing they ever put out, if you want to keep up, you have to buy the newest OP TRIBBLE every time.
With a level cap increase, you pick one of the new options at the cap and know it's at the endgame level and not neccessariyl worse or better than anything else.
But Cryptic could easily make every single power, every single ship they put out more powerful than all of the previous ones. YOu never get to pick - you want the best, there is only one option for you.
Demanding balance also keeps the devs "honest".
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
but dear! SS3 is underperforming compared to FAW! "No DPS record has ever been achieved using SS3!". yes, I'm quoting someone who has written in here, and I'm not going to name and shame, who just has a damaged mind. Bort got that covered.
One of the many reason why I'm giving zero regard on that keyboard warrior.
So, because a person has been pre-judged by you and reduced to a stereotype he's completely worth not only dismissing but rallied against because he doesn't fit into your "perfect world" ideology?
Dang man, you really need to see a councilor or the clergy over this one.
And said chasm between a "fresh" player (or even a DR) and an older toon became insurmountable again with the Specialization trees, and subsequent large XP nerfs.
And here's where I honestly don't understand your argument. Remember the 'insurmountable' SS3?! PvP-ers complained loudly, that they couldn't defend themselves against such awesome Alpha-strikes with it, and Devs plz nerf. And now, when ppl finally have some reasonable tools against such Alpha-strikes, you're complaining again that peeps can defend themselves too much!
In fact, reading between Dev blog lines, it looks to me like the Devs are actually, purposely looking for ways to mitigate the vaper-nonsense which is PvP (more shield in PvP, less CrtD, etc; none of which clear yet, but you can notice the Devs being aware of the vaper issue). So from my perspective, all y'all should be rejoicing these situational immunities.
Why, the Fox always thinks the hen house is too guarded, whereas the chickens feel it can't be secured enough.
I, for one, never bought into the notion that Cryptic 'suddenly' realized CrtH x CrtD = too much. PvP-ers, however, cried for a nerf to SS3 really loud. So, it was probably a bit of both.
16358 entries on the DPS League ISA Table.
536 would put you in the top 4%.
meimeitoo's at 324...inside the top 2%.
You guys can bicker about that.
Actually, I don't like bickering at all.
But that's the thing...and...that percentage isn't what you think it is. It's not a PvE vs. PvP thing...first. Second of all, you're suggesting that 99% of the players don't give a TRIBBLE about any semblance of balance in the game.
People that don't PvP still care about balance. Folks that care about balance still spend money.
No, I'm suggesting that for 99% of the playerbase these immunities in PvE are not a problem at all (at least, I never heard a PvE-er complain about it).
And 'balance' in PvE has no meaning anyway. Each Captain is their own Cyrano de Bergerac, fighting a 100 foes at at the same time, and still winning.
Let me pitch some hypothetical questions.
If the devs added something that gave you 100% immunity and we wanted it nerfed because it was breaking PvP, would you complain that PvE is suffering?
90% immunity?
80% immunity?
70% immunity?
60% immunity?
50% immunity?
40% immunity?
Why do you feel so threatened for your "PvE experience" if someone asks for a nerf on literal immunity to damage? How overpowered and godmode do you have to be to stop worrying that a nerf might ruin your NPC facerolling?
Just wondering.
You know that folks that PvP have to PvE, right? So any PvPer that complains about something...is a PvE guy/gal complaining about it.
Imagine they do two pilots for a new Superman TV show.
Pilot #1: Superman deals with supervillains, deals with threats to the planet, international issues, intergalactic issues...Superman does...Superman stuff.
Pilot #2: Superman hands out jaywalking tickets.
As I outlined before, I'm for the most part not even using said imnunities (except for "Rock 'N Roll" at times), as bravely running away with immunity (pun intended) is not really a PvE thingy, and nor is making Pilot your Primary.
And I believe in staying vigilent, yes.
Judging by the often very disparaging comments towards PvE(-ers), I was inclined to think PvP-ers don't PvE all that much (outside a necessary grind, maybe). But I honestly have no idea how many actually do.
Maybe that's a problem with the PvP brain, where you're either top or bottom. You're either better or worse period.
Negating that statement? Easy as ****.
Do you have the knowledge to play STO? Me too.
Do you have a BSci, a BA, a CFA cert, and an OACP cert? No you don't, I do. Those are facts and as logical a proof as yours that I'm more skilled in PvE than you.
How do my degrees and certification relate to STO PvE? They don't.
How does your knowledge for taking down a player relate to STO PvE? It doesn't.
Considering you guys keep listing things a PvPer deals with which by your own admittance does not occur in PvE making your ability to deal with such things completely irrelevant in PvE, it's mind boggling you keep doing so.
Try listing your ability to deal with things in PvE if you want to claim superiority in PvE, hm?
Or you can keep touting your ability to run marathons as evidence that you're a better sprinter than all sprinters who don't run marathons.
Here we go again. Pointing at PvP as evidence of superiority ability in PvE.
Obviously a PvPer will be better at PvP than PvE.
There are PvPers of all skill levels, and PvEers of all skill levels. Yet your assertion here is that that PvPers automatically mean greater skills than PvEers in everything.
Pointing again at PvP to as evidence in PvE, instead of taking literally 3 minutes to provide evidence of skill in PvE.
The nature of your questions simply point to you completely and utterly missing my point.
That person keeps claiming that PvPers are more than PvEers, period.
When you make an absolute statement like that, you refer to all all PvPers, all PvEers, in both PvP and PvE.
Are PvPers going to be better than PvEers in PvP? Obviously.
Are PvPers going to be better than PvEers in PvE? Not so obvious.
What evidence is provided to back up the assertion that PvPers are going to be better than PvEers in PvE?
The PvPer's ability to deal with things that don't happen in PvE.
If you're a tourney level Street Fighter player, you're probably going to better than someone who only plays against the AI when going head to head.
That's not evidence that you're going to be better against the AI than that person who only plays against the AI, and only ever practices the exact sequence necessary to beat the AI.
See, it's exceptionally easy to prove a PvPer's claim of superior skill at PvE, by taking literally 3 minutes to parse ISA and upload it. 3 minutes.
Instead, all we ever get is pointing at ability in PvP, the ability to deal with things which don't happen in PvE, as evidence of ability in PvE! It's ridiculous.
This is like a marathon runner saying they're better runners than sprinters (who can't do full marathons because they only ever sprint), then refusing to take a few seconds to sprint 100m.
It's like saying because their targets don't shoot back, the average soldier is better shot than the average competitive shooter. Yeah, the latter aren't going to be as good in a firefight as the former, but claiming that makes them better at a competition is ridiculous.
Because Bort. :P No, seriously, remember the big SS3 nerf?! We, as a community, had (strangely enough) reached some sort of an agreement that most could live with: we would have the [Acc] bonus removed from SS3, and that solution seemed to agree with many. Instead, though, Bort just flat-out nerfed SS3 for about 30% total, ignoring any and all forum comprise reached.
So, pardon me for fearing this proposed immunity nerf will go down the exact same path.
P.S. Kinda 5 AM here, so keeping it short.
PvPers aren't the only folks that say disparaging things about certain PvE folks...PvE folks do that too. Much like PvE folks aren't the only folks that say disparaging things about certain PvP folks...PvP folks do that too.
Sometimes pointing to who said something is little more than a distraction from what was said...
Ay, there's the rub! This 'problem', as you perceive it, was the inherent result of having Spec trees and Rep Traits to begin with. You can't have thirtysomething Spec points (per branch), and each doing nothing: inevitably some would lead to brief immunities (still highly exaggerated, btw, in practical PvE; but I digress), higher Defense, more CrtH, etc.
You, rather disingenuously, I fear, make it appear as if PvE is way too easy for most players (aka 'godmode'). In reality, however, as witnessed daily on the forum, many ppl are still struggling heavily with Advanced queues even; and any and all alleged 'godmode' really only applies to PvP. I got upset about that with the OP earlier, too: if you want something nerfed because of PvP, just say so; don't try and couch it in a story where PvE is in dire need of it too. Because it isn't.
That's funny, because the longer the run, the lower the average DPS is going to be. It's certainly unintuitive - I was in a 50k run just today that took literally 2 minutes and 3 seconds.
PvE knows the flank of structures, and it's a matter of getting into position ASAP as close as possible. Which means they basically travel as a pack, following the same lines (think Racing Line).
We're going to be hitting the same facings as a side effect, not worrying about individual targets.
Try again?
It is funny watching some of the videos...reminds me of multiboxers sometimes. Like it's one person running all five toons with the way they move.
Santa is fake?? :eek:
Ok yeah he fake as rubber dog poo BUT i like telling little kids Santa is dead i never get tired of hearing them scream to thier parents about santa dying
Why go with Santa's dead? Go with Santa's knows if you've been good or bad...and he's coming!
http://www.portlandmercury.com/binary/e19d/silentnightheader.jpg
Did I see right while looking for that? They actually did 4 sequels to that movie? They also even did a remake. Wow...
ROFL!!!
OMG man that is hillarious i will definatley use that in the furture
god mode is when you can do at least 60k at HSE, or parse 50k solo at ISA. That means all that goes with it, including healing, coordination HSE, at solo ISA it merely what you are doing.
Otherwise, you still need to improve self to get to that point or your not in godmode but merely imagining that you are in godmode.
It is why we had many, many threads of many, many pages about how the Galaxy was a subpar cruiser and needed a buff, for example.
And it can also be quite important for our own financial "safety". Cryptic can always put out something that's more powerful then everythnig we got before. That is what level cap increases tend to do, too.
But if they do it with every single thing they ever put out, if you want to keep up, you have to buy the newest OP TRIBBLE every time.
With a level cap increase, you pick one of the new options at the cap and know it's at the endgame level and not neccessariyl worse or better than anything else.
But Cryptic could easily make every single power, every single ship they put out more powerful than all of the previous ones. YOu never get to pick - you want the best, there is only one option for you.
Demanding balance also keeps the devs "honest".