It is why we had many, many threads of many, many pages about how the Galaxy was a subpar cruiser and needed a buff, for example.
It is called diversity. The first problem with balance is player skill. A highly skilled player can do Dps same or higher in t1 ship vs an ordinary player in a t5 or t6 player doing the same,
Tha t5 galaxy, can be done 50k Dps or more at optimal levels. Yes it is suboptimal compared to other tac ships, but is viable and useful in the current content. Anything that was asked there was asked out of luxury rather than necessity.
But if they do it with every single thing they ever put out, if you want to keep up, you have to buy the newest OP TRIBBLE every time.
You don't need to buy all the new stuff. OnLy player who thinks he needs to buy the new stuff.
If you set yourself using pre dr stuf at mk 12, with your level being 50, the maximum potential is around 90k dps. That is more than enough for elite content like HSE today.
The only time you need to buy those stuff is if you are actually competing with the top spot wherein 90k Dps isn't sufficient.
Mimey who wrote the guide that taught a generation of players to use same-energy-consoles and adjust their subsystem power to apply damage,
Because, without Mimey, we'd all just be slotting random Tact Consoles, like chickens without heads, right?! LOL. And no PvE-er would have ever thought to max out their weapons power, no?! Again, LOL.
Mimey is a good man; but you make me LOL.
it was PvP, not PvE that figured out how to use Attack Pattern Beta with BFAW to bust up mobs-it was origionally to bust up pet-mobs from carriers.
Because, without PvP, no one would have figured out to use APB with BFAW, right?! Actually, while we're at it, it was the DPS League who made BFAW popular again. PvP-ers never looked much beyond their holy DHC's.
Honestly, your amusing self-aggrandizement despite, would it hurt you to keep things real a bit?
Gravity-well Plus EWP began life as a PvP strategy-the idea was to immobilize a target player, dropping his defense to zero, then kill him faster. Notably PvE uses the combination in much the same way on mobs, only on Mobs, you're doing it make use of warp-core breaches.
EWP isn't all that popular in PvE, really. GW + Gravimetric Photon Torp, however is, as using cascading Warp-Core breaches simply works better against multiple targets, instead of a single PvP foe.
None of this stuff originated in PvE. Plasma-Doping didn't either, the parts were put into the Romulan material but everyone in PvE just 'knew' Plasma was a junk energy type.
Plasma is still a junk energy type. People are using plasma doping consoles because the plasma DoT happens to come, gratuitously, with some Embassy consoles. That's all. PvP-ers found out the [+beam] exploit, I'll give you that. But that got fixed.
PvP players figured out also, before the change, that if you were going fast enough, your inertial would get you out of Ionic Turbulence-before the fix, how to use "Rock and roll" to escape the vengeance of FBP's including the borg queen in Disconnected...
In other words, you're saying a skilled PvP-er doesn't need all these nerfs, right? :P Way to put your foot in your mouth there!
nothing has flowed the other way-PvE has demonstrated it has nothing to teach PvP players about how to play the game beyond basic munchkin min/maxing that is the natural instinct of ninety percent of players in every game, everywhere.
LOL. What PvE-ers brought to PvP was maximizing DPS, and a true understanding how how keybinds work. PvP-ers are, astoundingly, still in the dark ages when it comes to that. I recently mentioned not using the Hilbert Guide, in a PvP forum, and got a sh*tstorm of angry PvP-ers over me, yelling at me that adding +Power_Exec Distribute_Shields is the way to go. 'Ok'.
actually that above is the only quote out of most of your posts i can make sense off. i guess my pvp'er brain isn't suited for anything pve- or high-end related.....
....wait for it to come....
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LOL...
only one example: overcapping and bfaw/apb is so old, hell i think even when i first joined pvp there already have been the dental-galor-teams popping into c&h...
that was long before any dps-channel. and it never vanished. nor did full cannon builds ever totally vanished from pvp...
all i see is someone talking about something he obviously not has the slightest clue about. i know that impulse. truely, i do! but mostly i hold back myself and first dip into the matter, until i think i can take grounded statements about it.
regarding pvp that would have been the point when i got first recruited by nova-core after whooping some a**** around.
that was after a hard and discouraging journey all up the learning curve with all the a**kicks involved every pvp'er (and the pve'ers who tried and straight quit pvp in whole) know for a long time now.
to conclude:
- every halfway decent pvp'er is a hardcore pve-pro (this mostly doesn't work the other way round, but...)
- some of the hardcore pve'ers are pvp'ers as well
- for pve content one needs to know NOTHING about ingame-mechanics in comparison to pvp, where knowledge is survival
- like 90%+ of the broken stuff not seems to be broken for most pve'ers, because it doesn't really bother them in any way.
most couldn't tell if a target is disabled or not f.e.. and most wouldn't care, because: why, npc's melt anyways?
it's the thing even geko admitted with the line:" npc's can't come to complain on the forums" or such.
and here we go again. in sum, new op stuff added. stuff no pve'er ever needed before to finish anything of the lol-pve content. stuff that may slightly impacts the performance of certain pve-builds, but have great impact on pvp in whole.
and now as one goes onto the forums and starts a discussion about this new stuff all the copy-/paste pve-lollos are crawling out of their corners, screaming zeter and mordio on pvp and all those high-horse pvp'ers for starting a discussion about something they never needed before to kill npc's (oh.... LOL)...
/rant... naah, no really. just MY (:P) truth to be told, have a nice day.
- for pve content one needs to know NOTHING about ingame-mechanics in comparison to pvp, where knowledge is survival
All i see is someone talking about something he obviously not has the slightest clue about. It's the age-old ignorant notion that PvE is just about spacebar BFAW-ing, whilst you're being totally oblivious to how things are really done, and what skill and dexterity are required to time and execute things just right. It's a cute testimony to a PvP-er's hilariously self-touted superiority, but fortunately has no basis in reality.
Because, without PvP, no one would have figured out to use APB with BFAW, right?! Actually, while we're at it, it was the DPS League who made BFAW popular again. PvP-ers never looked much beyond their holy DHC's.
LOL. What PvE-ers brought to PvP was maximizing DPS, and a true understanding how how keybinds work. PvP-ers are, astoundingly, still in the dark ages when it comes to that. I recently mentioned not using the Hilbert Guide, in a PvP forum, and got a sh*tstorm of angry PvP-ers over me, yelling at me that adding +Power_Exec Distribute_Shields is the way to go. 'Ok'.
Actually, it was PvP that made a big push way back when to get FAW changed from "1 Beam, 1 firing cycle" to something more useful - and it was PvP again that discovered that FAW 3 (on the second iteration of it's mechanics) was using a faulty +97% damage modifier.
PvP has been using keybinds since literally launch. Distribute Shields and even using keybinds to chain 4 EPtX abilities so that 2 different types would have 100% uptime (EPtS and EPtA, for example). I'm sure that PvE was doing the same, but the "super high end DPS" meta that we've seen in the past few months (maybe year?) didn't really exist way back when.
And PvP does make extensive use of keybinds - but the keybinds are different, due to the differences between PvE and PvP. In PvE, you want to nail down the perfect firing cycle to optimize your DPS; make sure that you're activating FAW at the right time so you don't "waste" any of it while your Beams are still in a normal firing cycle, etc.
PvP keybinds are different. You want to be constantly spamming Distribute Shields, whether it messes with your firing cycle or not. You need to make sure you're constantly protected. PvE keybinds are designed to optimize your DPS, maximizing your average damage per second. You don't want high "DPS" in PvP (unless you're running a pressure build). You want all of your damage front loaded, in the shortest amount of time possible.
All i see is someone talking about something he obviously not has the slightest clue about. It's the age-old ignorant notion that PvE is just about spacebar BFAW-ing, whilst you're being totally oblivious to how things are really done, and what skill and dexterity are required to time and execute things just right. It's a cute testimony to a PvP-er's hilariously self-touted superiority, but fortunately has no basis in reality.
PvE can and is completed by spacebar FAWsmashing. I know, because that's what I do. I have fire all weapons + distribute shields bound to spacebar, and just keep mashing that and clicking FAW/EPtW/EPtS whenever they come off of CD, whether my Beams are in the middle of a cycle or not - all while parking myself around 9KM out, so that I have the maximum amount of targets in my DBB arcs (yes, I know that that is far from optimal). Now, of course, to get to the higher echelons of DPS that yourself and other top DPSers are at, there's more finessing required - timing your firing cycles, etc.
No one is going to argue that what you, Pax, and other top DPSers do does not require the skill - you guys know how to time your cycles and positioning down to a science. Where the argument stems from is that fact that you guys follow largely scripted actions; ISA groups always follow the same path, mobs always spawn in the same spots (regardless of what mission), etc. What the PvP folks are trying to say is that they've also got to maximize and finesse their timing as best as they can while facing buffs/debuffs/massive amounts of incoming damage and CC from multiple foes that are not only never in the same spot, but are adapting to what they're doing.
PvE can and is completed by spacebar FAWsmashing. I know, because that's what I do. I have fire all weapons + distribute shields bound to spacebar, and just keep mashing that and clicking FAW/EPtW/EPtS whenever they come off of CD. Now, of course, to get to the higher echelons of DPS that yourself and other top DPSers are at, there's more finessing required - timing your firing cycles, etc.
THIS!!!
yep all you need is a good keybind, FAW, and some heals to complete PvE. Now, for the higher tiers of the DPS channels you'll need quite a bit of game knowledge and skill.
oh real quick, you mentioned some desire for examples of pvp players vs pve players in their approaches to pve content better or worse right?
heres one off the top of my head,
a pve dps guy will fly along the shielded sides of a borg cube avoiding the unshielded side that the rest of his team may be shooting at, cause what hes going for is a parse, what hes going for is putting damage up on the board... a dead cube cant get more damage
a pvper approach to pve content in the same senerio? all attack the same side, dropping the shield fast, killing the mob quicker, its not big numbers on the parse, the stf may even take a few seconds longer on account of not all the pvp ships are just faw boats spamming embassy console procs... but its more of a thought process that comes from being a pvp player.. seeing an opening in your targets defenses and working as a team to drop that target as fast as possible
A PvE-er will understand the mechanics of the game, and will have figured out what the flanks of a Cube are, invoking the Intel Flanking Crits (you know Flanking, which you get from slotting Intel as Primary, instead of Pilot and its allegedly OP immunities).
And keeping Cubes alive to milk em for DPS, Holy Batman, what an incredibly silly thing to say!
All i see is someone talking about something he obviously not has the slightest clue about. It's the age-old ignorant notion that PvE is just about spacebar BFAW-ing, whilst you're being totally oblivious to how things are really done, and what skill and dexterity are required to time and execute things just right. It's a cute testimony to a PvP-er's hilariously self-touted superiority, but fortunately has no basis in reality.
i did say nothing about spacebar-luv :rolleyes:... i just know from experience that i could slam almost any senseless build together and still prevail in pve, while it's a totally other page in pvp.
and i know that i can take any of my pvp builds into any pve content and kinda steamroll it. without ever really gettin to sweat.
u accuse me/pvp'ers of "self-touted superiority" while not even spend a split-second on the thought that may "we" could be right on the matter. must be lonely in your reality :rolleyes:...
i did spend this thought on your post again and gotta tell you: nope, ur not. that bfaw/apb example is only one out of many.
and your ongoing relating any request for item-altering onto pvp and crusading against everything that could alter your endlessly-coming-in-new-broken-toys just seems like a proove of fear. fear mostly derives from missing knowledge. but that's ok i guess...
some heresy for you:
if this game was balanced around pvp (npc's as well. ai not necessarily, id' prefer it though lol) and powercreep only would happen within a certain range there wouldn't be any complaint-wars, nor a pve/pvp complex at all.
indeed i'd say that would be an environment that could have lasted on for decades, like f.e. cs.
but that's never gonna happen, just like some won't ever get it. and that's why i'll enjoy my meal now while watching this one more trainwreck burn.
Basically every time you ask a PvEr about reducing times of immunity they say "No! I don't want them nerfed because of PvP!".
This means they need those immunities. But then they start defending themselves "I use them only at times, not that much".
Basically they negate their own statement to try to repair their failure. Try to explain this.
Reducing their duration doesn't affect their gameplay then, but it's still a bad thing.
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
PvE can and is completed by spacebar FAWsmashing. I know, because that's what I do. I have fire all weapons + distribute shields bound to spacebar, and just keep mashing that and clicking FAW/EPtW/EPtS whenever they come off of CD, whether my Beams are in the middle of a cycle or not - all while parking myself around 9KM out, so that I have the maximum amount of targets in my DBB arcs (yes, I know that that is far from optimal). Now, of course, to get to the higher echelons of DPS that yourself and other top DPSers are at, there's more finessing required - timing your firing cycles, etc.
No one is going to argue that what you, Pax, and other top DPSers do does not require the skill - you guys know how to time your cycles and positioning down to a science. Where the argument stems from is that fact that you guys follow largely scripted actions; ISA groups always follow the same path, mobs always spawn in the same spots (regardless of what mission), etc. What the PvP folks are trying to say is that they've also got to maximize and finesse their timing as best as they can while facing buffs/debuffs/massive amounts of incoming damage and CC from multiple foes that are not only never in the same spot, but are adapting to what they're doing.
I think I can actually agree to this. It's a pity, though, that you allow yourself to lose so much DPS, just putting everything on spacebar; but your choice, of course. And I don't think you've ever heard me say PvP requires no skill (that would just be plain stupid). Just that PvE, when you want to do it right, requires quite a bit of skill too.
P.S. FTR, I'm not a 'Top-DPS-er', by any strech of the imagination. RyanSTO is; and Sarcasmdetector et al. Honestly, in the DPS world I don't count at all.
Basically every time you ask a PvEr about reducing times of immunity they say "No! I don't want them nerfed because of PvP!".
This means they need those immunities. But then they start defending themselves "I use them only at times, not that much".
Yep, rarely use any them. I have Intel as Primary, couldn't be bothered finishing the DR event in time, in order to get the Temporal Insight Trait, and never really even considered the existence of a 'immunities issue', until the OP claimed there was one.
Still don't like PvP-induced nerfs, though; especially since they're supposed to be bring a balance to PvE I never saw missing to begin with.
A PvE-er will understand the mechanics of the game, and will have figured out what the flanks of a Cube are, invoking the Intel Flanking Crits (you know Flanking, which you get from slotting Intel as Primary, instead of Pilot and its allegedly OP immunities).
And keeping Cubes alive to milk em for DPS, Holy Batman, what an incredibly silly thing to say!
Maybe PvE some more?!
Meimei, please stop this .
You're trying to compare apples to oranges so hard that ... it's just bad ok ?
Understanding of mechanics can (and does) come from both sides, but :
At the end of the day, PVP (and many of the deeper player understandings of the game's base mechanics) were there first , and at the end of that same day you (and I) will still be engaging the same predictable (and thus calculable) NPC's in PVE that diviate little if at all from their routine .
Are PVP-ers ALWAYS right ?
Nope .
One of their classic claims -- that a PVP build is good for PVE -- I've always disagreed with, based on experience .
But that experience came from trying both types of gaming and experiencing the differences back and forth .
Thus, going back to the beginning of my post, I have known for a long time that one was an apple and one was an orange , and I understood that without understanding everything META in the game .
... sometimes , experience is enough, and since in PVP you have to be much more alert to changes, that brings with it a need for different play style then PVE . Thus I for one will never presume to argue which is better ... , only that in PVP , the Alpha Strike (and it's stacking & chaining of powers) is the beginning of the wisdom , not the end ...
Where the argument stems from is that fact that you guys follow largely scripted actions; ISA groups always follow the same path, mobs always spawn in the same spots (regardless of what mission)
What you said. That should take about five attempts once the ship is geared to completely skill yourself in. How much practice does it take to master three year old content? None really.
Position two ships moving at speed both player controlled to pull off an attack within 2 km within a 3 second window consistently and we'll all come and talk about how much skill that takes. We can compare notes.
Moving a FAW cruiser within the optimal tolerances of beam fire on targets that haven't moved since they fixed ionic turbulence?
Yah not so much.
But to be on topic. Immunity, if you can show me where any ship can have it up 23 (was that the number) seconds out of each and every minute and still actually do things like kill stuff, even I would say that that is a bit high.
If its 23 seconds at maximum every few minutes maybe not so bad.
But also, as always, sub nuc says 'Hi'. Even from npcs with the wave effect. I've been doing scads of parsing and of course video to go with to measure some of these effects. I only have rock and roll, aux2id, EPTE, evasive, etc. There's been gobs of times I've been chain stunned or otherwise held.
Now some of this could be due to server lag/input lag whatever. I SWORE hit that button in time. Hard saying. Just even with all those tools at my disposal, I don't feel OP.
On the OTHER hand, the huge amounts of passive defense that's now available DOES put feds at least up above romulan levels.
That is a crazy huge and measurable amount of lol.
You're trying to compare apples to oranges so hard that ... it's just bad ok ?
Understanding of mechanics can (and does) come from both sides, but :
At the end of the day, PVP (and many of the deeper player understandings of the game's base mechanics) were there first,
And said 'deeper understanding' PvP-ers allegedly possses would gain significantly in momentum when beameddown didn't claim PvE-ers are keeeping Cubes alive to milk em for DPS. :P Because, seriously, that makes him look like he either never seriously PvE-ed, or has absolutely no grasp on how DPS is being calculated (hint: in no small part, it's a function of time). i'm sure beameddown would out-PvP me any day, but if his intent was to dazzle me with his PvE prowess, well, that didn't quite do it.
As for comparing apples to oranges, not even sure what you're saying there; that PvE isn't the same as PvP?
No one is going to argue that what you, Pax, and other top DPSers do does not require the skill - you guys know how to time your cycles and positioning down to a science. Where the argument stems from is that fact that you guys follow largely scripted actions; ISA groups always follow the same path, mobs always spawn in the same spots (regardless of what mission), etc. What the PvP folks are trying to say is that they've also got to maximize and finesse their timing as best as they can while facing buffs/debuffs/massive amounts of incoming damage and CC from multiple foes that are not only never in the same spot, but are adapting to what they're doing.
This is the point I'm making. Superior skill in adaption is not an indication of superior skill in following largely scripted actions. Superior skill at shooting in a firefight does not automatically mean superior skill at competitive target shooting.
A MMA fighter is going to have to deal with a lot more than a boxer. The boxer is all about strikes and points, the MMA fighter needs to deal with grapples and holds (and more) in addition to that.
Put Douglas Lima in the octagon with Floyd Mayweather and Lima is going to wreck Mayweather. Lima is going to have a more diverse skillset, and the ability to deal with a greater array of situations. A technical striker like Mayweather is likely going to lose by submission rather quickly.
Put Lima with Mayweather in the boxing ring though, and Lima's greater skillset becomes irrelevant. His ability with grapples and kicks is irrelevant because they're not allowed in the ring. It'd be a boring fight where Mayweather dominates and Lima loses by points. (*cough cough*)
Superior skill at PvP does not automatically mean superior skill at PvE, for exactly the reasons you listed.
PvP is about facing unpredictable enemies - the more you can adapt and overcome, the greater your skill at PvP, the higher your defeat:kill ratio.
PvE is about following a script - the closer you are to identifying and performing the optimal script, the greater your skill at PvE, the faster you complete the script and the higher your DPS.
This is why claims that superior ability in PvP means superior ability in PvE are nonsensical. You can't prove you're better able to follow a script by pointing at your ability to improv as evidence. The skills and teamwork required to excel in PvP is not the skills and teamwork required to excel in PvE. Is the former more difficult than the latter? Arguably yeah. Yet being an amazing chef is not evidence of being a superior short order cook.
Yep, rarely use any them. I have Intel as Primary, couldn't be bothered finishing the DR event in time, in order to get the Temporal Insight Trait, and never really even considered the existence of a 'immunities issue', until the OP claimed there was one.
As long as your DR has the tesseract communicator you can get the unlocks.
You just can't make a new DR now that the event has ended.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Yep, rarely use any them. I have Intel as Primary, couldn't be bothered finishing the DR event in time, in order to get the Temporal Insight Trait, and never really even considered the existence of a 'immunities issue', until the OP claimed there was one.
Still don't like PvP-induced nerfs, though; especially since they're supposed to be bring a balance to PvE I never saw missing to begin with.
You avoided the question, and cut my post to dodge it, so I'm going to ask it again.
This means they need those immunities. But then they start defending themselves "I use them only at times, not that much".
[...]
Reducing their duration doesn't affect their gameplay then, but it's still a bad thing.
How so?
I need to get to him. I can't just leave him out there alone. - Sometimes you've got to makes sacrifices, Lara. You can't save everyone. - I know about sacrifices. - No, you know about loss. Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you. - I can't choose to let him die, Roth.
Mimey who wrote the guide that taught a generation of players to use same-energy-consoles and adjust their subsystem power to apply damage, also pioneered the all-energy cruiser and Escort build that is ALSO the fundamental bedrock of the DPS racers.
Mimey's guide taught most of the information today's DPS racers base their build and development strategies on.
Because, without Mimey, we'd all just be slotting random Tact Consoles, like chickens without heads, right?! LOL. And no PvE-er would have ever thought to max out their weapons power, no?! Again, LOL.
Mimey is a good man; but you make me LOL.
Uhm...what exactly are you two (particularly you Patrick) talking about in regards to me? I think you must be thinking of somebody else, as I don't remember writing a guide on those topics.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Which means while the Hilbert guide was/is a great guide, it wasn't the source of what appears to be (if the initial derision towards the Dragon build thread is to be believed) widely known information.
(I did this digging because when I was new and researching, I found and devoured the Dragon thread, but never found the Hilbert guide. Which I now know was because it didn't exist yet.)
Who cares honestly? Dont TRIBBLE and moan about everything just cuz its not to your liking.
Use your own brain and work around it with different strategies and tactics.
All I hear is alot of delicious buthurt QQ
QUOTE Originally Posted by induperator View Post
Times like this I'm glad the Devs don't take advice from the forums, how could they? everyone is contradicting one another every week.
Things I'm glad I read after finishing my morning energy drink. Well said.
There is a new release every week, so it stands to reason that the complaints will also change week to week.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
They should just remove all immunities period!! Being imune to damage is a god ability and should ONLY and RARE IF EVER be used by anyone including NPC's.
They should just remove all immunities period!! Being imune to damage is a god ability and should ONLY and RARE IF EVER be used by anyone including NPC's.
God abilites are ALWAYS abused in games...always.
Um...immunites aren't really that new...Some were just restricted to a specific science ship
The New Crop be these:
-Player Controlled-
Rock N Roll - 4 seconds.(60 second CD) (Cant fight back during ability)
Temporal Insight - 4 seconds (60 second CD)
Pilot Maneuvers - 2 seconds (10 second CD) (Cant fight back during ability)*works during R&R
-Passive- Triggered upon receiving damage
Thick of It 4 seconds (30 second CD) *Pilot Spec*
Dest.Phase Array 3 seconds (60 second CD)
-Old School-
-Vesta-
Quantum Bubble 10 seconds ((Cant fight back during ability))
-Wells-
Tipler Cylinder 7 seconds (Cant fight back during ability)
(Nearly Immune)*with Low Resist to start
-Dyson-
Meta Shields +600 Damage Resistance(85+% DR) ,15 seconds (2 min recharge)
-Pathfinder-
Ablative Generator +900 Damage resistance (90+% DR),15 Seconds (2 min recharge)
-Shield R&D- : Inelastic Collisions 99% Damage Reduction for 1.5 seconds
-Aegis 2 Set- : Energy Negation Immune for 0.2 seconds.30 second CD
Immunities or Resistances high enough to be nearly immune aren't new..Right now Temporal Insight is the only immunity where you can count on being immune (Cuz you control when it activates) while being able to shoot back.Granted you can do with the Pilot spec Passive or the Iconian t4 trait..but those are less predictable and cant be counted on (Pretty sure these dont stack)..All them immunities mean nothing if you cant do alot of damage in a short period of time (like 10-15 seconds).
Could you stack immunites..Yes..but you'd have to be freaking awesome at getting all of them to go off 1 after another...Easiest would probably be 3 of these for 12 seconds (and thats still not easy to time all 3 right after another)..People do it with heals and its nearly the same thing (virtually immune)..
Personally ,in PVP,Ive just waited the immunity out and then destroyed em..In PVE..who cares.
Comments
It is called diversity. The first problem with balance is player skill. A highly skilled player can do Dps same or higher in t1 ship vs an ordinary player in a t5 or t6 player doing the same,
Tha t5 galaxy, can be done 50k Dps or more at optimal levels. Yes it is suboptimal compared to other tac ships, but is viable and useful in the current content. Anything that was asked there was asked out of luxury rather than necessity.
You don't need to buy all the new stuff. OnLy player who thinks he needs to buy the new stuff.
If you set yourself using pre dr stuf at mk 12, with your level being 50, the maximum potential is around 90k dps. That is more than enough for elite content like HSE today.
The only time you need to buy those stuff is if you are actually competing with the top spot wherein 90k Dps isn't sufficient.
Because, without Mimey, we'd all just be slotting random Tact Consoles, like chickens without heads, right?! LOL. And no PvE-er would have ever thought to max out their weapons power, no?! Again, LOL.
Mimey is a good man; but you make me LOL.
Because, without PvP, no one would have figured out to use APB with BFAW, right?! Actually, while we're at it, it was the DPS League who made BFAW popular again. PvP-ers never looked much beyond their holy DHC's.
Honestly, your amusing self-aggrandizement despite, would it hurt you to keep things real a bit?
EWP isn't all that popular in PvE, really. GW + Gravimetric Photon Torp, however is, as using cascading Warp-Core breaches simply works better against multiple targets, instead of a single PvP foe.
Plasma is still a junk energy type.
In other words, you're saying a skilled PvP-er doesn't need all these nerfs, right? :P Way to put your foot in your mouth there!
LOL. What PvE-ers brought to PvP was maximizing DPS, and a true understanding how how keybinds work. PvP-ers are, astoundingly, still in the dark ages when it comes to that. I recently mentioned not using the Hilbert Guide, in a PvP forum, and got a sh*tstorm of angry PvP-ers over me, yelling at me that adding +Power_Exec Distribute_Shields is the way to go. 'Ok'.
actually that above is the only quote out of most of your posts i can make sense off. i guess my pvp'er brain isn't suited for anything pve- or high-end related.....
....wait for it to come....
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LOL...
only one example: overcapping and bfaw/apb is so old, hell i think even when i first joined pvp there already have been the dental-galor-teams popping into c&h...
that was long before any dps-channel. and it never vanished. nor did full cannon builds ever totally vanished from pvp...
all i see is someone talking about something he obviously not has the slightest clue about. i know that impulse. truely, i do! but mostly i hold back myself and first dip into the matter, until i think i can take grounded statements about it.
regarding pvp that would have been the point when i got first recruited by nova-core after whooping some a**** around.
that was after a hard and discouraging journey all up the learning curve with all the a**kicks involved every pvp'er (and the pve'ers who tried and straight quit pvp in whole) know for a long time now.
to conclude:
- every halfway decent pvp'er is a hardcore pve-pro (this mostly doesn't work the other way round, but...)
- some of the hardcore pve'ers are pvp'ers as well
- for pve content one needs to know NOTHING about ingame-mechanics in comparison to pvp, where knowledge is survival
- like 90%+ of the broken stuff not seems to be broken for most pve'ers, because it doesn't really bother them in any way.
most couldn't tell if a target is disabled or not f.e.. and most wouldn't care, because: why, npc's melt anyways?
it's the thing even geko admitted with the line:" npc's can't come to complain on the forums" or such.
and here we go again. in sum, new op stuff added. stuff no pve'er ever needed before to finish anything of the lol-pve content. stuff that may slightly impacts the performance of certain pve-builds, but have great impact on pvp in whole.
and now as one goes onto the forums and starts a discussion about this new stuff all the copy-/paste pve-lollos are crawling out of their corners, screaming zeter and mordio on pvp and all those high-horse pvp'ers for starting a discussion about something they never needed before to kill npc's (oh.... LOL)...
/rant... naah, no really. just MY (:P) truth to be told, have a nice day.
All i see is someone talking about something he obviously not has the slightest clue about. It's the age-old ignorant notion that PvE is just about spacebar BFAW-ing, whilst you're being totally oblivious to how things are really done, and what skill and dexterity are required to time and execute things just right. It's a cute testimony to a PvP-er's hilariously self-touted superiority, but fortunately has no basis in reality.
Actually, it was PvP that made a big push way back when to get FAW changed from "1 Beam, 1 firing cycle" to something more useful - and it was PvP again that discovered that FAW 3 (on the second iteration of it's mechanics) was using a faulty +97% damage modifier.
PvP has been using keybinds since literally launch. Distribute Shields and even using keybinds to chain 4 EPtX abilities so that 2 different types would have 100% uptime (EPtS and EPtA, for example). I'm sure that PvE was doing the same, but the "super high end DPS" meta that we've seen in the past few months (maybe year?) didn't really exist way back when.
And PvP does make extensive use of keybinds - but the keybinds are different, due to the differences between PvE and PvP. In PvE, you want to nail down the perfect firing cycle to optimize your DPS; make sure that you're activating FAW at the right time so you don't "waste" any of it while your Beams are still in a normal firing cycle, etc.
PvP keybinds are different. You want to be constantly spamming Distribute Shields, whether it messes with your firing cycle or not. You need to make sure you're constantly protected. PvE keybinds are designed to optimize your DPS, maximizing your average damage per second. You don't want high "DPS" in PvP (unless you're running a pressure build). You want all of your damage front loaded, in the shortest amount of time possible.
PvE can and is completed by spacebar FAWsmashing. I know, because that's what I do. I have fire all weapons + distribute shields bound to spacebar, and just keep mashing that and clicking FAW/EPtW/EPtS whenever they come off of CD, whether my Beams are in the middle of a cycle or not - all while parking myself around 9KM out, so that I have the maximum amount of targets in my DBB arcs (yes, I know that that is far from optimal). Now, of course, to get to the higher echelons of DPS that yourself and other top DPSers are at, there's more finessing required - timing your firing cycles, etc.
No one is going to argue that what you, Pax, and other top DPSers do does not require the skill - you guys know how to time your cycles and positioning down to a science. Where the argument stems from is that fact that you guys follow largely scripted actions; ISA groups always follow the same path, mobs always spawn in the same spots (regardless of what mission), etc. What the PvP folks are trying to say is that they've also got to maximize and finesse their timing as best as they can while facing buffs/debuffs/massive amounts of incoming damage and CC from multiple foes that are not only never in the same spot, but are adapting to what they're doing.
THIS!!!
yep all you need is a good keybind, FAW, and some heals to complete PvE. Now, for the higher tiers of the DPS channels you'll need quite a bit of game knowledge and skill.
A PvE-er will understand the mechanics of the game, and will have figured out what the flanks of a Cube are, invoking the Intel Flanking Crits (you know Flanking, which you get from slotting Intel as Primary, instead of Pilot and its allegedly OP immunities).
And keeping Cubes alive to milk em for DPS, Holy Batman, what an incredibly silly thing to say!
Maybe PvE some more?!
i did say nothing about spacebar-luv :rolleyes:... i just know from experience that i could slam almost any senseless build together and still prevail in pve, while it's a totally other page in pvp.
and i know that i can take any of my pvp builds into any pve content and kinda steamroll it. without ever really gettin to sweat.
u accuse me/pvp'ers of "self-touted superiority" while not even spend a split-second on the thought that may "we" could be right on the matter. must be lonely in your reality :rolleyes:...
i did spend this thought on your post again and gotta tell you: nope, ur not. that bfaw/apb example is only one out of many.
and your ongoing relating any request for item-altering onto pvp and crusading against everything that could alter your endlessly-coming-in-new-broken-toys just seems like a proove of fear. fear mostly derives from missing knowledge. but that's ok i guess...
some heresy for you:
if this game was balanced around pvp (npc's as well. ai not necessarily, id' prefer it though lol) and powercreep only would happen within a certain range there wouldn't be any complaint-wars, nor a pve/pvp complex at all.
indeed i'd say that would be an environment that could have lasted on for decades, like f.e. cs.
but that's never gonna happen, just like some won't ever get it. and that's why i'll enjoy my meal now while watching this one more trainwreck burn.
This means they need those immunities. But then they start defending themselves "I use them only at times, not that much".
Basically they negate their own statement to try to repair their failure. Try to explain this.
Reducing their duration doesn't affect their gameplay then, but it's still a bad thing.
I think I can actually agree to this.
P.S. FTR, I'm not a 'Top-DPS-er', by any strech of the imagination. RyanSTO is; and Sarcasmdetector et al. Honestly, in the DPS world I don't count at all.
Yep, rarely use any them.
Still don't like PvP-induced nerfs, though; especially since they're supposed to be bring a balance to PvE I never saw missing to begin with.
Meimei, please stop this .
You're trying to compare apples to oranges so hard that ... it's just bad ok ?
Understanding of mechanics can (and does) come from both sides, but :
At the end of the day, PVP (and many of the deeper player understandings of the game's base mechanics) were there first , and at the end of that same day you (and I) will still be engaging the same predictable (and thus calculable) NPC's in PVE that diviate little if at all from their routine .
Are PVP-ers ALWAYS right ?
Nope .
One of their classic claims -- that a PVP build is good for PVE -- I've always disagreed with, based on experience .
But that experience came from trying both types of gaming and experiencing the differences back and forth .
Thus, going back to the beginning of my post, I have known for a long time that one was an apple and one was an orange , and I understood that without understanding everything META in the game .
... sometimes , experience is enough, and since in PVP you have to be much more alert to changes, that brings with it a need for different play style then PVE . Thus I for one will never presume to argue which is better ... , only that in PVP , the Alpha Strike (and it's stacking & chaining of powers) is the beginning of the wisdom , not the end ...
What you said. That should take about five attempts once the ship is geared to completely skill yourself in. How much practice does it take to master three year old content? None really.
Position two ships moving at speed both player controlled to pull off an attack within 2 km within a 3 second window consistently and we'll all come and talk about how much skill that takes. We can compare notes.
Moving a FAW cruiser within the optimal tolerances of beam fire on targets that haven't moved since they fixed ionic turbulence?
Yah not so much.
But to be on topic. Immunity, if you can show me where any ship can have it up 23 (was that the number) seconds out of each and every minute and still actually do things like kill stuff, even I would say that that is a bit high.
If its 23 seconds at maximum every few minutes maybe not so bad.
But also, as always, sub nuc says 'Hi'. Even from npcs with the wave effect. I've been doing scads of parsing and of course video to go with to measure some of these effects. I only have rock and roll, aux2id, EPTE, evasive, etc. There's been gobs of times I've been chain stunned or otherwise held.
Now some of this could be due to server lag/input lag whatever. I SWORE hit that button in time. Hard saying. Just even with all those tools at my disposal, I don't feel OP.
On the OTHER hand, the huge amounts of passive defense that's now available DOES put feds at least up above romulan levels.
That is a crazy huge and measurable amount of lol.
I'm surprised you didn't target that.
See what I did there? "target defense'?
Good stuff.
And said 'deeper understanding' PvP-ers allegedly possses would gain significantly in momentum when beameddown didn't claim PvE-ers are keeeping Cubes alive to milk em for DPS. :P Because, seriously, that makes him look like he either never seriously PvE-ed, or has absolutely no grasp on how DPS is being calculated (hint: in no small part, it's a function of time). i'm sure beameddown would out-PvP me any day, but if his intent was to dazzle me with his PvE prowess, well, that didn't quite do it.
As for comparing apples to oranges, not even sure what you're saying there; that PvE isn't the same as PvP?
Kinda yeah , both in basics (you get a lot less different powers pounding at you in PVE) and in play style .
... come to think of it , there is a play style that is similar in a way -- premades , where jobs are assigned depending on the goal of the team ...
The fact that you say this, means you're not the sort I was talking about.
Unlike the sort like laferrari1, who simply make blanket claims of superiority.
This is the point I'm making. Superior skill in adaption is not an indication of superior skill in following largely scripted actions. Superior skill at shooting in a firefight does not automatically mean superior skill at competitive target shooting.
A MMA fighter is going to have to deal with a lot more than a boxer. The boxer is all about strikes and points, the MMA fighter needs to deal with grapples and holds (and more) in addition to that.
Put Douglas Lima in the octagon with Floyd Mayweather and Lima is going to wreck Mayweather. Lima is going to have a more diverse skillset, and the ability to deal with a greater array of situations. A technical striker like Mayweather is likely going to lose by submission rather quickly.
Put Lima with Mayweather in the boxing ring though, and Lima's greater skillset becomes irrelevant. His ability with grapples and kicks is irrelevant because they're not allowed in the ring. It'd be a boring fight where Mayweather dominates and Lima loses by points. (*cough cough*)
Superior skill at PvP does not automatically mean superior skill at PvE, for exactly the reasons you listed.
PvP is about facing unpredictable enemies - the more you can adapt and overcome, the greater your skill at PvP, the higher your defeat:kill ratio.
PvE is about following a script - the closer you are to identifying and performing the optimal script, the greater your skill at PvE, the faster you complete the script and the higher your DPS.
This is why claims that superior ability in PvP means superior ability in PvE are nonsensical. You can't prove you're better able to follow a script by pointing at your ability to improv as evidence. The skills and teamwork required to excel in PvP is not the skills and teamwork required to excel in PvE. Is the former more difficult than the latter? Arguably yeah. Yet being an amazing chef is not evidence of being a superior short order cook.
Misunderstanding understood.
On that note, groceries need to be collected; later all.
As long as your DR has the tesseract communicator you can get the unlocks.
You just can't make a new DR now that the event has ended.
You avoided the question, and cut my post to dodge it, so I'm going to ask it again.
This means they need those immunities. But then they start defending themselves "I use them only at times, not that much".
[...]
Reducing their duration doesn't affect their gameplay then, but it's still a bad thing.
How so?
Uhm...what exactly are you two (particularly you Patrick) talking about in regards to me? I think you must be thinking of somebody else, as I don't remember writing a guide on those topics.
Yet the Dragon thread was from February 1st, 2012.
Which means while the Hilbert guide was/is a great guide, it wasn't the source of what appears to be (if the initial derision towards the Dragon build thread is to be believed) widely known information.
(I did this digging because when I was new and researching, I found and devoured the Dragon thread, but never found the Hilbert guide. Which I now know was because it didn't exist yet.)
Use your own brain and work around it with different strategies and tactics.
All I hear is alot of delicious buthurt QQ
SUCK IT UP BUTTERCUP and deal with it
There is a new release every week, so it stands to reason that the complaints will also change week to week.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
God abilites are ALWAYS abused in games...always.
Um...immunites aren't really that new...Some were just restricted to a specific science ship
The New Crop be these:
-Player Controlled-
Rock N Roll - 4 seconds.(60 second CD) (Cant fight back during ability)
Temporal Insight - 4 seconds (60 second CD)
Pilot Maneuvers - 2 seconds (10 second CD) (Cant fight back during ability)*works during R&R
-Passive- Triggered upon receiving damage
Thick of It 4 seconds (30 second CD) *Pilot Spec*
Dest.Phase Array 3 seconds (60 second CD)
-Old School-
-Vesta-
Quantum Bubble 10 seconds ((Cant fight back during ability))
-Wells-
Tipler Cylinder 7 seconds (Cant fight back during ability)
(Nearly Immune)*with Low Resist to start
-Dyson-
Meta Shields +600 Damage Resistance(85+% DR) ,15 seconds (2 min recharge)
-Pathfinder-
Ablative Generator +900 Damage resistance (90+% DR),15 Seconds (2 min recharge)
-Shield R&D- : Inelastic Collisions 99% Damage Reduction for 1.5 seconds
-Aegis 2 Set- : Energy Negation Immune for 0.2 seconds.30 second CD
Immunities or Resistances high enough to be nearly immune aren't new..Right now Temporal Insight is the only immunity where you can count on being immune (Cuz you control when it activates) while being able to shoot back.Granted you can do with the Pilot spec Passive or the Iconian t4 trait..but those are less predictable and cant be counted on (Pretty sure these dont stack)..All them immunities mean nothing if you cant do alot of damage in a short period of time (like 10-15 seconds).
Could you stack immunites..Yes..but you'd have to be freaking awesome at getting all of them to go off 1 after another...Easiest would probably be 3 of these for 12 seconds (and thats still not easy to time all 3 right after another)..People do it with heals and its nearly the same thing (virtually immune)..
Personally ,in PVP,Ive just waited the immunity out and then destroyed em..In PVE..who cares.
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.