I really wish they didn't fix Ionic Turbulence and Suppression Barrage. The outcry for chained unresistable stuns and chained unresistable movement, accuracy and damage debuff would have been something epic to see.
#iconianpcs
Someone should make a thread asking to buff both those, quoting all of the people who originally blamed PvP for getting it nerfed and how it's now "useless" and see what happens.
What we want is to experience stories, immerse ourselves in the setting, and play the hero.
No, that's not quite what you want. You might tell yourself that...you might find that reassuring, but it's hardly anything that's demonstrated by the majority of folks making the complaints that you have.
See, in order to "play the hero" - one actually needs to do something heroic, yeah? Overcome the odds? Save the day? Make some sacrifice? Yadda, yadda, yadda...
PvP folks? There are some folks looking to play the hero.
DPS folks? There are some folks looking to play the hero.
They're either facing challenges or creating challenges...something for them to overcome, rise to the occasion, and perhaps triumph in the end.
What you want to do on the other hand, well, that more closely resembles wanting to be a bully. Some folks refer to it as munchkin gaming. What you want to do is play dress up, slaughter a bunch of pixels while in godmode, and chestbump with your buddies that want to do the same.
Did you ever watch Star Trek? Any of the series, any of the movies, anything? Cause even though things were rigged in their favor - it being fiction and all - there was still the illusion on danger, there were still obstacles to overcome, and our heroes actually...did something.
It wasn't week after week of watching the various crews run around stomping the Hell out of the known universe. No, quite the opposite...that's something that our heroes actively opposed from the villains that were trying to do just that.
So please, do not try to belittle others while trying to play the "play the hero" card when in the end...what you want could not be further from the truth.
But then again, what you define as hero there works for a certain group of folks...usually aged 2-4.
The amount of time that you can be immune is just ridiculous - nearly 30% of combat time.
You started by exaggerating your case. For instance, you can't practically go "Rock 'N Rolling" thru an isa. And "Thick of It" only works when "Turn the Other Cheek" is active on all four facings simultaneously. Besides, the latter requires you have Pilot as Primary (whereas Intel as Primary is generally considered much more powerful, for the Flanking alone).
"Destabilizing Phase Array" looks like an ideal anti-Alpha-Strike PvP thingy to me (probably why you started this thread?)
EDIT: For those of you that think that this is OK, why do you feel so? (...) (because this is both a PvE and PvP issue)...
No, let's face it: it's purely a PvP issue (if even that).
Would it "ruin the game" for anyone if they weren't there at all? If they were substituted for high Defense and Resistance that can be overcome by players, but not NPCs?
So it really *is* about PvP, then?!
No, of course not. No one wants to consider that, just rant against the Big Bad PvPers who "get everything nerfed", while conveniently forgetting all the things we HAVE gotten buffed and all the things we'd like to see buffed. :rolleyes:
That is called "Giving with your right hand, whilst taking away with your left."
I truly, honestly give up on this game. It's one thing to have to battle the Devs to get a meaningful game, but it's pointless when even the players want to have Space Barbie Godmode, who are so opposed to anything that's not their style of gameplay.
So, it's actually YOU ranting against PvE. Unless 'Space Barbie Godmode' was meant in a positive way.
"WELL IF I CAN'T BENEFIT FROM WHAT THE DEVS ARE SPENDING THEIR TIME ON, THEN YOU CAN'T HAVE IT! I DON'T CARE IF THEY'VE DEVELOPED FOR PVE AND RP FOR 5 YEARS, I WILL NOT SUPPORT THEM SPENDING 1 WEEK ON PVP DEVELOPMENT!"
You got this surprisingly upside-down. More like "I, THE BIG BAD PVP-ER, AM HURTING FROM IMMUNITIES THE DEVS ARE SPENDING THEIR TIME ON; THEREFORE NO ONE ELSE CAN HAVE THESE!"
The onus is in you to make a compelling case why these small, situational immunities are bad for PvE. Otherwise -- though you may not like to hear it -- it's just another "PvP-er wants to nerf PvE" thread.
"Cannot fight against a human being". Man, take that attitude and shove it so far up your TRIBBLE your eyeballs pop out. THAT is why we hate you. Because you think your kind of fun is superior, your skills are superior, your preferences for the game and your priorities for how it should be built are superior, and that things should be changed for your benefit and your benefit alone.
Yeah, taunting somebody into joining your cause rarely works.
Most people playing the game do so because they love the IP. Most PvPers do too. To them PvP is how battles in Star Trek would have been fought (at least if 5v5 battles were fought, or even smaller engagements). Preprepared strategies, diverse tactics, luring your opponent into an opening, letting them overexert themselves, deliver precise blows etc. I personally don't play PvP to win, but to play PvP. Gameplay is just totally different.
Just an example: have you ever seen someone in a pug or as a team strategy use a drain build (reduce the enemies power levels as a mean of crowd-control)?
What part of we COULD play competitive PvP if we wanted to do you not understand? What part of the fact that many if not most of us find that level of obsessive minimaxing to be a pointless and obnoxious pain in the TRIBBLE do you fail to understand? It's not our idea of a good time, and that does NOT make us any lesser than you.
Until before DR not much (if any) min/maxing was needed in PvP to have fun. You would get stomped by premades, but that would happen even if you'd have superior gear. DR has made PvP just completely unapproachable in terms of costs. The feature/power creep we've seen in the last half a year has been insane in comparison to previous seasons.
The problem is, that nothing that is introduced is to the detriment of PvE, ever. If it's ****, it simply won't be used. If it's good it will be. There's just one positive scale. In PvP, which is part of the game, everything can have a positive and negative effect.
An example would be "Radiant Detonation Matrix" from the T4 Iconian Rep: It doesn't really matter if you strip 1 or two buffs off an enemy in PvE, yet if you delete all the buffs of a player in PvP he's basically dead. Not to mention that a single rep trait could marginalize a captain ability :rolleyes:
What we want is to experience stories, immerse ourselves in the setting, and play the hero. It's entertainment for us, and for you it's a sport. We don't WANT to play it as a ******ned sport, can you wrap your head around that for once? We would find playing it that way to be frustrating and pointless and unrewarding, and find the competitive attitude required to enjoy PvP to be obnoxious and counter to the spirit of cooperative entertainment.
No, there doesn't have to be a huge competetive attitude present if you want to PvP. Internal fleet PvP exists in every fleet i know of. People spend hours perfecting their setups or just try to find out which canon equipped ship beats which in the game. There also the point, that i personally never cared if i lost or won in PvP because playing was its own reward. I also can't really feel like a hero in PvE if everything melts in seconds and i have to repeat content ad infinitum. Nothing reacts to me in PvE. Objectives never change and enemies don't ever adapt. Winning just means that you get a reward at the end.
To say PvP isn't cooperative entertainment shows a real lack of understanding of PvP though. Team PvP is the pinnacle of STO PvP.
We as PvE players want to COOPERATE with our fellow gamers so we ALL have a good time and we all win. In the PvE game all get to be heroes and win for a change, when real life is often so stressful and harsh. We don't WANT to destroy other players or make them fail, we want to win TOGETHER with them. We get to beat up on enemies without hurting any human person's feelings or ruining anyone else's good time. We get to have fun together where nobody has to suffer frustration and disappointment. The real world is brutally competitive, we want something else from our gaming time.
Again, if you don't have a cheeze ridden ****show with total imballance you will have a good time in a PvP match. It doesn't matter who wins, playing will be fun.
You, though, think PvP is for the real players and everyone else only does it because they can't cut it. You think that taking things away from PvE players is ok because we're just losers who can't make the cut in the competitive league. Your head is so far up your own TRIBBLE you have to open your mouth to be able to see. The world, and the game, does NOT revolve around you.
How is anybody actually taking things away from anybody? The OP talked about a redesign. The core princaple of PvP is: "Everything has to have a counter". If that isn't the case, it's broken. Yes weakening powers in favor a better balanced game might make things more difficult, but ask yourself this: "Why do i need broken things in the first place?"; "Why don't i ever notice them to be broken?". Has PvE really be designed around you needing these powers? Has it been even before they were ever introduced?
Or is it just that something you don't want to do, but is a part of the game nontheless, has influence on "your" game? That is called being selfish.
If you don't like something being used against you in PvP, ask to have it banned FROM PVP and from PvP ALONE. When you want it nerfed for everyone, you're hurting everyone else and taking something away from them to suit your needs at the expense of others. It's incredibly selfish behavior and it makes those you have so selfishly caused inconvenience to to hate your self-centered TRIBBLE. You have no respect for PvE players and what we want doesn't count in your little self-centered world, because to you we're just the scrubs that can't compete. To you we're just whining, because our needs as PvE players are not considered of any value. You don't consider PvE a valid and worthy way to play the game, you consider it a trash collection of rejects who have failed PvP.
I don't have respect for players that call others out as being selfish when they seem as selfish themselves. I don't have respect for players that generalize by making one poster on this forum his personal strawman for all of PvP. And i don't have respect for the insane amount of projection that is going on here.
The oxymoron part of this topic, is the part where said immunity skills should offer higher defense, yet high enough defense and you virtually become immune anyways.
Now, while the cd suggestions, could work towards balancing the issues, some cd suggestions are a tad overboard, by making combining these defensive abilities pointless at that point.
So, you would have virtually no better balance, while nerfing a good majority of defensive abilities, right into the ground.
The oxymoron part of this topic, is the part where said immunity skills should offer higher defense, yet high enough defense and you virtually become immune anyways.
Now, while the cd suggestions, could work towards balancing the issues, some cd suggestions are a tad overboard, by making combining these defensive abilities pointless at that point.
So, you would have virtually no better balance, while nerfing a good majority of defensive abilities, right into the ground.
Well said!
As for putting all immunities on a shared cd, the Devs already made that mistake once, with the Team abilities. Let's not go there again.
Ironically enough, PvP-cried-for nerfs always, predictably, move along these 2 lines:
"Waaaa! My opponents are disabling me too much!" Or,
"Waaaa! My opponents have too much immunity against my disables!"
Sigh. Can't you ppl just adapt for once?! (Without dragging down PvE with you in the process, that is)
Thing just really is, that these minute, situational immunities aren't bothering anyone in PvE (if so, show me the threads where PvE-ers wanted them nerfed). This thread is a PvP request for a nerf, nothing else.
ummm, they might be scratching their heads, cause they obviously don't understand balance, or how to copramise between power problems..
every single time we have a balance issue in the game, they way over compensate for it, creating another balance issue..
we have a problem with vapes, so now they make it so no one can take dmg ever.. balance is the issue, and balance is a term that sto devs do not understand. they never have.. just look at the game, there is not even balance between career specs and ships.. this game is designed to coral us into making more dps. all of the objectives and optionals in game are designed around killing things in x amount of time or less. this game balances away from most sci skills and most engineer skills, and puts us more in line with tac skills..
Pax, a player with your knowledge and skill level in this game should understand better than most regarding this.
Vapes are one thing, but complete and total Godmode is another entirely.
Your thinly veiled accusations against PvP and that "particular playerbase" don't really make much sense here - if you go back and look at most of the threads created by myself and others, the intention is to bring about a better gameplay experience for all - examples including buffing Mines/Torps/Cannons and providing alternatives for meatbag NPCs.
You don't counter a gunshot by encasing yourself in a foot-thick ball of steel.
It's not about class balance at all, since all of the Immunity abilities are available to everyone, regardless of Captain Class or ship type.
It's about stupid mechanics in the game. A few seconds of immunity (with a respectable CD) would be acceptable - but not when you can chain immunity after immunity for nearly 1/3 of combat.
It does not matter if it's PvE or PvP. The PvP implications are obvious and PvE should be evident as well - why bother not shooting or moving out of range for the CC's megablast when you can simply turn yourself immune to it's effects, for example?
STO has been this with regards to balance for years. Like I said in my post, balance is pipedream. You know that, everybody knows that. It should be the community who should adjust if you want to create fun or balance within competitions. Because when you ask them adjust or change mechanics do make stuff even worse than what you want. So better the community adjusts.
With regards, to the playerbase, some players adapt, some players dont, some players live with the mechanics, some players cannot. So, it certainly divides which of the playerbase whether pvp or pve can live and adapt with the mechanics with only the ones who frequent the forums are being heard.
First of all it's the PvP'ers them selves. They constantly claim that PvP is dead, but umm, aren't they then the reason for it's demise?
PvP is supposed to be you against another player in a battle ... 'mano-a-mano' ... as it were. All i see is players who want to "vape" anything and everything to stroke their own ego's, not prove who is actually the better ship pilot or setup builder.
Most threads such as these seem to be about the OP getting Cryptic to wipe noses, and ... exhaust ports ... for them, so they don't even have to think or have actual talent.
If there is a power/skill that is designed for PvE missions, and someone uses it in PvP, then they don't deserve to be called a PvP'er and deserve no credit or kudoss.
If you're in a PvP battle and a player uses this or that skill, to defeat you, ask them politely to re-run the match without it. If they refuse, then you can politely suggest that it must mean they don't have the necessary skills to be as good as you. And you can sit back and bask in your own glory.
STO has been this with regards to balance for years. Like I said in my post, balance is pipedream. You know that, everybody knows that. It should be the community who should adjust if you want to create fun or balance within competitions. Because when you ask them adjust or change mechanics do make stuff even worse than what you want. So better the community adjusts.
With regards, to the playerbase, some players adapt, some players dont, some players live with the mechanics, some players cannot. So, it certainly divides which of the playerbase whether pvp or pve can live and adapt with the mechanics with only the ones who frequent the forums are being heard.
I'm all for PvP-ers adapting. No, seriously. Remember Ionic Turbulance?! They cried us a river, saying how unfair it was they could be disabled, and, boo-hoo, there was nothing they could do about it. Then (on top of nerfing Ionic Turbulance), the Devs came up with many ways for the clever player to become immune to a lot of things (for a short while). And now PvP-ers are complaining again?!?
Seriously, adapt already! Make these immunities work for you when someone uses something powerful against you: then everyone gets to keep their minor immunities, and alleged OP abilities don't need to be nerfed any more.
I'm all for PvP-ers adapting. No, seriously. Remember Ionic Turbulance?! They cried us a river, saying how unfair it was they could be disabled, and, boo-hoo, there was nothing they could do about it. Then (on top of nerfing Ionic Turbulance), the Devs came up with many ways for the clever player to become immune to a lot of things (for a short while). And now PvP-ers are complaining again?!?
Seriously, adapt already! Make these immunities work for you when someone uses something powerful against you: then everyone gets to keep their minor immunities, and alleged OP abilities don't need to be nerfed any more.
you really want to be in a GGA with an unnerfed Ionic? I don't think you've thought this out as well as you think you have... There would be no resistance to its disable, not APO, A2D, ET, nothing. It would follow you so you couldn't run away and there would be no immunity period so the Heralds would be able to chain disable you.
I'll take you up on that deal when I get the same powerful Sphere Tachyon Beam. :P
You do get it. A science ship with really good flow caps can drain shields just as well. What you don't get to do is to be 10 spheres doing it all at once. Also, IDK what this has to do with ionic...
Ionic Turbulance, by itself, has actually nothing to do with the topic at all. Except for me mentioning it briefly, to show PvP-ers will complain when something is deemed too powerful an attack, and then complain again when the game allegedly offers too many immunities. (And to make my point, that the two should ideally balance each other out, when applied properly, so these constant cries for nerfs become unnecessary)
Did you ever hear the one about the creek asking the river why the river was wet?
Never heard of it, no. I imagine it's akin to Pot, Kettle, Black?! Doesn't apply here, methinks, as it's PvP-ers asking for a nerf, not PvE-ers. So, let the PvP-er adapt!
Never heard of it, no. I imagine it's akin to Pot, Kettle, Black?! Doesn't apply here, methinks, as it's PvP-ers asking for a nerf, not PvE-ers. So, let the PvP-er adapt!
Never heard of it, no. I imagine it's akin to Pot, Kettle, Black?! Doesn't apply here, methinks, as it's PvP-ers asking for a nerf, not PvE-ers. So, let the PvP-er adapt!
It's not like the mobs get more difficult...but you love the power creep...to deal with them?
Couldn't you...I don't know...adapt instead?
I dont think is that what I meant between who will adapt more, PvP or PvE. But rather this with adaptation:
Some PvP players do Some PvP players don't. Some PvE players do, Some PvE players don't. It is a question for each individual player.
If we are going for the community wants, we wont know if this is what each community wants or their respective majorities unless you get numbers vote which only Cryptic has.
Since, if I complain or a certain number player complains, it doesn't mean we represent that community. Just like each thread of PvE nerf or PvP change mechanic thread.
I'm all for PvP-ers adapting. No, seriously. Remember Ionic Turbulance?! They cried us a river, saying how unfair it was they could be disabled, and, boo-hoo, there was nothing they could do about it. Then (on top of nerfing Ionic Turbulance), the Devs came up with many ways for the clever player to become immune to a lot of things (for a short while). And now PvP-ers are complaining again?!?
Seriously, adapt already! Make these immunities work for you when someone uses something powerful against you: then everyone gets to keep their minor immunities, and alleged OP abilities don't need to be nerfed any more.
I learned a long time ago that the only thing a pvper really wants from a "tough battle" is gentle resistance that can easily be overcome. And to torment helpless noobs.
A complete lack of resistance is boring and stiff resistance is annoying and emasculating.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I dont think is that what I meant between who will adapt more, PvP or PvE. But rather this with adaptation:
Some PvP players do Some PvP players don't. Some PvE players do, Some PvE players don't. It is a question for each individual player.
If we are going for the community wants, we wont know if this is what each community wants or their respective majorities unless you get numbers vote which only Cryptic has.
Since, if I complain or a certain number player complains, it doesn't mean we represent that community. Just like each thread of PvE nerf or PvP change mechanic thread.
It tends to be more of a...
"Some Semblance Of Balance / Some Attempt At Reasonable Power Creep"
vs
"My thermonuclear assault rifle only has five barrels, and I think it should have ten!"
...sort of discussion.
Interlaced with the scapegoating of PvPers because at one point Cryptic fatfingered fifty barrels on their assault rifle and then fixed it.
Some folks out there, if they were playing an interactive storybook of the Three Little Pigs - would be online looking for cheat codes...cause they're just that kind of person.
In the end, the only way that anything would likely be done about the immunities (not that I'm in agreement with the initial suggestions back there), would be if in some way they were allowing players to earn rewards in an unintended fashion.
Cryptic knows that there are going to be outlier folks - those that earn faster than the vast majority, and outside of any exploits - they're going to let that go. It's when something moves to the masses (the old joke about if one wanted to get something fixed for PvP, share it with some random PvE folks and it would spread like wildfire catching Cryptic's attention).
It's rare that Cryptic would otherwise step in and say that something just isn't working quite right.
The immunities themselves, well Hell, they just sound like "interesting" things - Cryptic likes to do "interesting" things...they make the game fun for a bunch of folks, yeah? But is being able to be immune to things for that amount of time...an "interesting" thing? Cause, imho, that goes beyond something that was special into...meh...not quite right.
Course, how many folks are actually going all out with them, yeah? I don't believe it's something that should be neutered at the base level so that one has to go all out or there's no point. That kind of defeats the purpose.
Much like one cannot stack Power Conduit Links and Plasmonic Leech though...there are ways to put limits in the game.
Course, Cryptic's gone back and forth on whether they want folks to think about what they're doing or if they want them just to spam stuff...
I learned a long time ago that the only thing a pvper really wants from a "tough battle" is gentle resistance that can easily be overcome. And to torment helpless noobs.
A complete lack of resistance is boring and stiff resistance is annoying and emasculating.
Weren't you going around and challenging all sorts of folks to duels in PvE threads though?
I learned a long time ago that the only thing a pvper really wants from a "tough battle" is gentle resistance that can easily be overcome. And to torment helpless noobs.
A complete lack of resistance is boring and stiff resistance is annoying and emasculating.
Funny enough, this quote becomes much more accurate with the following revisions:
I learned a long time ago that the only thing a pve'er really wants from a "tough battle" is gentle resistance that can easily be overcome. And to torment helpless npcs.
A complete lack of resistance is boring and stiff resistance is annoying and emasculating.
I guess you didn't notice that any time there's the slightest rise in difficulty, the forums go batpoop crazy? When Spheres in ISE were given 30 second EPtE, people freaked (and thus they got it nerfed to five seconds).
It's not like the mobs get more difficult...but you love the power creep...to deal with them?
Couldn't you...I don't know...adapt instead?
LOL. You digged deep on that, didn't ya! But yeah, I love the power creep! I love shiny new things, in an ever upwardly going spiral. That is the economic basis of an MMO, btw: if there'd be nothing better to strive for, ppl would soon just quit.
Doesn't show "an inability to adapt" at all, btw; just means I love PvE the way its going.
And mobs don't get more difficult?! Lolwut?! Did you miss all these endless rageposts about (pugging) PvE-ers, over the last half year or so, who loudly decry the increased difficulty of Advanceds?!
Point remains: PvE-ers are not the ones asking for a nerf; so, it's the PvP-ers that should adapt.
I learned a long time ago that the only thing a pvper really wants from a "tough battle" is gentle resistance that can easily be overcome. And to torment helpless noobs.
A complete lack of resistance is boring and stiff resistance is annoying and emasculating.
LOL. You digged deep on that, didn't ya! But yeah, I love the power creep! I love shiny new things, in an ever upwardly going spiral. That is the economic basis of an MMO, btw: if there'd be nothing better to strive for, ppl would soon just quit.
That's a bingo. Even in my other favorite MMO, Arenanet had to throw in a bit of vertical progression after launch, and then completely mask the vertical progression in creative ways for the coming expansion. Players need power progression to aim for, something to work towards building up. Its how you keep them playing.
That's a bingo. Even in my other favorite MMO, Arenanet had to throw in a bit of vertical progression after launch, and then completely mask the vertical progression in creative ways for the coming expansion. Players need power progression to aim for, something to work towards building up. Its how you keep them playing.
Except we don't have vertical progression in the game. We have a horizontal endgame with superfluous amounts of power creep. All the power creep does is allow folks to run that treadmill to nowhere faster and faster...
Wow, we've got Advanced that require 1-2k more DPS than the previous Elite...so now ISA looks for 6-7k from a player...in a game where folks are doing ten times that.
If they had more things like HSE...if the other Elites were even there...if we didn't have some Elites easier than some Advanced...if there was an actual progression there - that would be one thing. But we've got almost nothing and the rest is just the threadmill with folks saying they need even more.
And mobs don't get more difficult?! Lolwut?! Did you miss all these endless rageposts about (pugging) PvE-ers, over the last half year or so, who loudly decry the increased difficulty of Advanceds?!
The folks that were being carried that have been left to fend for themselves...would have a hard time with the content before DR. But it sounds like you want to do one of those retcon things...like the folks that like to pretend the Worst STF thread didn't have over 3200 posts before DR launched, yeah? Cause everything was fine before hand! Nope, the same folks that couldn't hack it then can't hack it now. They'll never hack it as long as they spend more time and effort whining about how things are too hard instead of putting a quarter of that effort into playing the game.
It could even be argued (Successfully) that the Ionic Turbulence "nerf" you've been blaming on PvP was done in consideration of what the Iconian Servitors would be spamming (Given the time to develop missions, this seems really, really likely)-had it been the auto-hit-disable it was, say, in January, nobody would want to be playing Gates or Sphere except for a few hardcores who'd already doped out counter-tactics back before it WAS adjusted.
Heh, like the changes for all of that happening right as the Herald Sphere was hitting up Tribble? But yeah, some of those folks out there will blame PvPers for everything. Hell, lol, in another thread folks were blaming PvPers for a nerf to something when it had actually been buffed...it was a trip. They define clueless...it's kind of sad.
Comments
Someone should make a thread asking to buff both those, quoting all of the people who originally blamed PvP for getting it nerfed and how it's now "useless" and see what happens.
No, that's not quite what you want. You might tell yourself that...you might find that reassuring, but it's hardly anything that's demonstrated by the majority of folks making the complaints that you have.
See, in order to "play the hero" - one actually needs to do something heroic, yeah? Overcome the odds? Save the day? Make some sacrifice? Yadda, yadda, yadda...
PvP folks? There are some folks looking to play the hero.
DPS folks? There are some folks looking to play the hero.
They're either facing challenges or creating challenges...something for them to overcome, rise to the occasion, and perhaps triumph in the end.
What you want to do on the other hand, well, that more closely resembles wanting to be a bully. Some folks refer to it as munchkin gaming. What you want to do is play dress up, slaughter a bunch of pixels while in godmode, and chestbump with your buddies that want to do the same.
Did you ever watch Star Trek? Any of the series, any of the movies, anything? Cause even though things were rigged in their favor - it being fiction and all - there was still the illusion on danger, there were still obstacles to overcome, and our heroes actually...did something.
It wasn't week after week of watching the various crews run around stomping the Hell out of the known universe. No, quite the opposite...that's something that our heroes actively opposed from the villains that were trying to do just that.
So please, do not try to belittle others while trying to play the "play the hero" card when in the end...what you want could not be further from the truth.
But then again, what you define as hero there works for a certain group of folks...usually aged 2-4.
You started by exaggerating your case. For instance, you can't practically go "Rock 'N Rolling" thru an isa. And "Thick of It" only works when "Turn the Other Cheek" is active on all four facings simultaneously. Besides, the latter requires you have Pilot as Primary (whereas Intel as Primary is generally considered much more powerful, for the Flanking alone).
"Destabilizing Phase Array" looks like an ideal anti-Alpha-Strike PvP thingy to me (probably why you started this thread?)
No, let's face it: it's purely a PvP issue (if even that).
So it really *is* about PvP, then?!
That is called "Giving with your right hand, whilst taking away with your left."
So, it's actually YOU ranting against PvE. Unless 'Space Barbie Godmode' was meant in a positive way.
You got this surprisingly upside-down. More like "I, THE BIG BAD PVP-ER, AM HURTING FROM IMMUNITIES THE DEVS ARE SPENDING THEIR TIME ON; THEREFORE NO ONE ELSE CAN HAVE THESE!"
The onus is in you to make a compelling case why these small, situational immunities are bad for PvE. Otherwise -- though you may not like to hear it -- it's just another "PvP-er wants to nerf PvE" thread.
Most people playing the game do so because they love the IP. Most PvPers do too. To them PvP is how battles in Star Trek would have been fought (at least if 5v5 battles were fought, or even smaller engagements). Preprepared strategies, diverse tactics, luring your opponent into an opening, letting them overexert themselves, deliver precise blows etc. I personally don't play PvP to win, but to play PvP. Gameplay is just totally different.
Just an example: have you ever seen someone in a pug or as a team strategy use a drain build (reduce the enemies power levels as a mean of crowd-control)?
Until before DR not much (if any) min/maxing was needed in PvP to have fun. You would get stomped by premades, but that would happen even if you'd have superior gear. DR has made PvP just completely unapproachable in terms of costs. The feature/power creep we've seen in the last half a year has been insane in comparison to previous seasons.
The problem is, that nothing that is introduced is to the detriment of PvE, ever. If it's ****, it simply won't be used. If it's good it will be. There's just one positive scale. In PvP, which is part of the game, everything can have a positive and negative effect.
An example would be "Radiant Detonation Matrix" from the T4 Iconian Rep: It doesn't really matter if you strip 1 or two buffs off an enemy in PvE, yet if you delete all the buffs of a player in PvP he's basically dead. Not to mention that a single rep trait could marginalize a captain ability :rolleyes:
No, there doesn't have to be a huge competetive attitude present if you want to PvP. Internal fleet PvP exists in every fleet i know of. People spend hours perfecting their setups or just try to find out which canon equipped ship beats which in the game. There also the point, that i personally never cared if i lost or won in PvP because playing was its own reward. I also can't really feel like a hero in PvE if everything melts in seconds and i have to repeat content ad infinitum. Nothing reacts to me in PvE. Objectives never change and enemies don't ever adapt. Winning just means that you get a reward at the end.
To say PvP isn't cooperative entertainment shows a real lack of understanding of PvP though. Team PvP is the pinnacle of STO PvP.
Again, if you don't have a cheeze ridden ****show with total imballance you will have a good time in a PvP match. It doesn't matter who wins, playing will be fun.
How is anybody actually taking things away from anybody? The OP talked about a redesign. The core princaple of PvP is: "Everything has to have a counter". If that isn't the case, it's broken. Yes weakening powers in favor a better balanced game might make things more difficult, but ask yourself this: "Why do i need broken things in the first place?"; "Why don't i ever notice them to be broken?". Has PvE really be designed around you needing these powers? Has it been even before they were ever introduced?
Or is it just that something you don't want to do, but is a part of the game nontheless, has influence on "your" game? That is called being selfish.
I don't have respect for players that call others out as being selfish when they seem as selfish themselves. I don't have respect for players that generalize by making one poster on this forum his personal strawman for all of PvP. And i don't have respect for the insane amount of projection that is going on here.
Now, while the cd suggestions, could work towards balancing the issues, some cd suggestions are a tad overboard, by making combining these defensive abilities pointless at that point.
So, you would have virtually no better balance, while nerfing a good majority of defensive abilities, right into the ground.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Well said!
As for putting all immunities on a shared cd, the Devs already made that mistake once, with the Team abilities. Let's not go there again.
Ironically enough, PvP-cried-for nerfs always, predictably, move along these 2 lines:
"Waaaa! My opponents are disabling me too much!" Or,
"Waaaa! My opponents have too much immunity against my disables!"
Sigh. Can't you ppl just adapt for once?! (Without dragging down PvE with you in the process, that is)
Thing just really is, that these minute, situational immunities aren't bothering anyone in PvE (if so, show me the threads where PvE-ers wanted them nerfed). This thread is a PvP request for a nerf, nothing else.
STO has been this with regards to balance for years. Like I said in my post, balance is pipedream. You know that, everybody knows that. It should be the community who should adjust if you want to create fun or balance within competitions. Because when you ask them adjust or change mechanics do make stuff even worse than what you want. So better the community adjusts.
With regards, to the playerbase, some players adapt, some players dont, some players live with the mechanics, some players cannot. So, it certainly divides which of the playerbase whether pvp or pve can live and adapt with the mechanics with only the ones who frequent the forums are being heard.
First of all it's the PvP'ers them selves. They constantly claim that PvP is dead, but umm, aren't they then the reason for it's demise?
PvP is supposed to be you against another player in a battle ... 'mano-a-mano' ... as it were. All i see is players who want to "vape" anything and everything to stroke their own ego's, not prove who is actually the better ship pilot or setup builder.
Most threads such as these seem to be about the OP getting Cryptic to wipe noses, and ... exhaust ports ... for them, so they don't even have to think or have actual talent.
If there is a power/skill that is designed for PvE missions, and someone uses it in PvP, then they don't deserve to be called a PvP'er and deserve no credit or kudoss.
If you're in a PvP battle and a player uses this or that skill, to defeat you, ask them politely to re-run the match without it. If they refuse, then you can politely suggest that it must mean they don't have the necessary skills to be as good as you. And you can sit back and bask in your own glory.
Again, 'Nuff said
/end thread.
I'm all for PvP-ers adapting.
Seriously, adapt already! Make these immunities work for you when someone uses something powerful against you: then everyone gets to keep their minor immunities, and alleged OP abilities don't need to be nerfed any more.
you really want to be in a GGA with an unnerfed Ionic? I don't think you've thought this out as well as you think you have... There would be no resistance to its disable, not APO, A2D, ET, nothing. It would follow you so you couldn't run away and there would be no immunity period so the Heralds would be able to chain disable you.
I'll take you up on that deal when I get the same powerful Sphere Tachyon Beam. :P
You do get it. A science ship with really good flow caps can drain shields just as well. What you don't get to do is to be 10 spheres doing it all at once. Also, IDK what this has to do with ionic...
Did you ever hear the one about the creek asking the river why the river was wet?
Tbh virus ive never heard that one before does sound like a funny little saying though
Ionic Turbulance, by itself, has actually nothing to do with the topic at all.
Never heard of it, no.
But...
...shows an inability to adapt.
It's not like the mobs get more difficult...but you love the power creep...to deal with them?
Couldn't you...I don't know...adapt instead?
I dont think is that what I meant between who will adapt more, PvP or PvE. But rather this with adaptation:
Some PvP players do Some PvP players don't. Some PvE players do, Some PvE players don't. It is a question for each individual player.
If we are going for the community wants, we wont know if this is what each community wants or their respective majorities unless you get numbers vote which only Cryptic has.
Since, if I complain or a certain number player complains, it doesn't mean we represent that community. Just like each thread of PvE nerf or PvP change mechanic thread.
I learned a long time ago that the only thing a pvper really wants from a "tough battle" is gentle resistance that can easily be overcome. And to torment helpless noobs.
A complete lack of resistance is boring and stiff resistance is annoying and emasculating.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
It tends to be more of a...
"Some Semblance Of Balance / Some Attempt At Reasonable Power Creep"
vs
"My thermonuclear assault rifle only has five barrels, and I think it should have ten!"
...sort of discussion.
Interlaced with the scapegoating of PvPers because at one point Cryptic fatfingered fifty barrels on their assault rifle and then fixed it.
Some folks out there, if they were playing an interactive storybook of the Three Little Pigs - would be online looking for cheat codes...cause they're just that kind of person.
In the end, the only way that anything would likely be done about the immunities (not that I'm in agreement with the initial suggestions back there), would be if in some way they were allowing players to earn rewards in an unintended fashion.
Cryptic knows that there are going to be outlier folks - those that earn faster than the vast majority, and outside of any exploits - they're going to let that go. It's when something moves to the masses (the old joke about if one wanted to get something fixed for PvP, share it with some random PvE folks and it would spread like wildfire catching Cryptic's attention).
It's rare that Cryptic would otherwise step in and say that something just isn't working quite right.
The immunities themselves, well Hell, they just sound like "interesting" things - Cryptic likes to do "interesting" things...they make the game fun for a bunch of folks, yeah? But is being able to be immune to things for that amount of time...an "interesting" thing? Cause, imho, that goes beyond something that was special into...meh...not quite right.
Course, how many folks are actually going all out with them, yeah? I don't believe it's something that should be neutered at the base level so that one has to go all out or there's no point. That kind of defeats the purpose.
Much like one cannot stack Power Conduit Links and Plasmonic Leech though...there are ways to put limits in the game.
Course, Cryptic's gone back and forth on whether they want folks to think about what they're doing or if they want them just to spam stuff...
Weren't you going around and challenging all sorts of folks to duels in PvE threads though?
Funny enough, this quote becomes much more accurate with the following revisions:
I guess you didn't notice that any time there's the slightest rise in difficulty, the forums go batpoop crazy? When Spheres in ISE were given 30 second EPtE, people freaked (and thus they got it nerfed to five seconds).
LOL. You digged deep on that, didn't ya!
Doesn't show "an inability to adapt" at all, btw; just means I love PvE the way its going.
And mobs don't get more difficult?! Lolwut?! Did you miss all these endless rageposts about (pugging) PvE-ers, over the last half year or so, who loudly decry the increased difficulty of Advanceds?!
Point remains: PvE-ers are not the ones asking for a nerf; so, it's the PvP-ers that should adapt.
this is pretty much the essence of pvp
That's a bingo. Even in my other favorite MMO, Arenanet had to throw in a bit of vertical progression after launch, and then completely mask the vertical progression in creative ways for the coming expansion. Players need power progression to aim for, something to work towards building up. Its how you keep them playing.
Except we don't have vertical progression in the game. We have a horizontal endgame with superfluous amounts of power creep. All the power creep does is allow folks to run that treadmill to nowhere faster and faster...
Wow, we've got Advanced that require 1-2k more DPS than the previous Elite...so now ISA looks for 6-7k from a player...in a game where folks are doing ten times that.
If they had more things like HSE...if the other Elites were even there...if we didn't have some Elites easier than some Advanced...if there was an actual progression there - that would be one thing. But we've got almost nothing and the rest is just the threadmill with folks saying they need even more.
The folks that were being carried that have been left to fend for themselves...would have a hard time with the content before DR. But it sounds like you want to do one of those retcon things...like the folks that like to pretend the Worst STF thread didn't have over 3200 posts before DR launched, yeah? Cause everything was fine before hand! Nope, the same folks that couldn't hack it then can't hack it now. They'll never hack it as long as they spend more time and effort whining about how things are too hard instead of putting a quarter of that effort into playing the game.
Heh, like the changes for all of that happening right as the Herald Sphere was hitting up Tribble? But yeah, some of those folks out there will blame PvPers for everything. Hell, lol, in another thread folks were blaming PvPers for a nerf to something when it had actually been buffed...it was a trip. They define clueless...it's kind of sad.
... he he heh ...
* and don't waste your time pointing me to Bort's DPS crowd appeasing answer to that ...
DPS , DPS
Does whatever DPS can
Blows up a ship, any size,
Lolz @ scrubs, just like flies
Look Out!
Here comes the DPS .
Is he strong?
Listen bud,
He's got Critz in his blood.
Can he swing from a Scim ?
Take a look overhead
Hey, there
There goes the DPS .
In the parse of night
At the scene of a fight
Like a streak of light
He posts the parse just in time.
DPS , DPS
Friendly neighborhood DPS
Numbers and fame
He's ignored
Posting the parse is his reward.
To him, life is a great big bang up
Wherever there's a hang up
You'll find the DPS.
:P