It would have been easy enough to simply flip the names of the two maps during the sector space revamp... I in fact posted a suggestion to that effect which was never even replied to.
Sorry, but the major powers belong in the Alpha Quadrant.
No they don't, the Klingon and Romulan Empires have both always, ALWAYS have been stated as being in the Beta Quadrant. The Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta quadrants are all the designations given by the UFP and Sol sits literally right on the border of the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Starfleet seem to just use the Alpha quadrant as a catchall phrase for both. Besides since the majority of the game so far takes place IN the Beta quadrant it is the logical choice to have Sol where it is.
Earth belongs in both the Alpha and Beta Quadrant not the Alpha Quadrant. Since that is not possible, then Cryptic had to choose. Besides, Earth according to STO has always been in the Beta Quadrant since launch. It would be worse to move Earth to the Alpha Quadrant since people are used to where Earth is now. Gameplay is always more important than canon.
CANON IS IMPORTANT you fool. Without it there would be no game. And secondly its insulting to just do whatever you want to CANON material of a universe just because you think it would be better. Janeway said Alpha quadrant Meaning the quadrant itself NOT HOME. BEcause if that was the case she wouldnt have used the term delta she would have called it something else.
It would have been easy enough to simply flip the names of the two maps during the sector space revamp... I in fact posted a suggestion to that effect which was never even replied to.
Sorry, but the major powers belong in the Alpha Quadrant.
Finally, someone who has actually watched the episodes and read any Star Trek novels and doesn't just go by what 'wiki' has to say about it. If you go by source material alone it is obvious that all 3 major powers, Klingon, Romulan and Federation have ALWAYS been in the alpha quadrant with just the far side of romulan space extending into Beta.
As far as the posters who are saying this is an old topic and I was beating a dead horse that was talked about too much already, the old maps were not obvious to me that those areas were not just all part of the alpha quadrant which they should be. The books your using as reference to substantiate the belief that the Beta quadrant was the home of the major powers are all departing from what was actually said in the shows or in any of the approved ST novels.
The new map arrangement with the Name -Beta Quadrant and all 3 major powers there on it is a blatant departure and nonsequitor that goes against what was said in actual dialog over and over again in both DS9 and Voyager. That much is obvious, and that is a far more accepted 'fact' then what some reference book that made up most of the contents based on two obscure movie props.
THE 3 MAJOR POWERS BELONG IN THE ALPHA QUADRANT! ALPHISTS UNITE!
You know there are a lot of legitimate things wrong with this game, but I can't say that this is very high on my list. Overall I think the sector space revamp was a nice change.
Finally, someone who has actually watched the episodes and read any Star Trek novels and doesn't just go by what 'wiki' has to say about it. If you go by source material alone it is obvious that all 3 major powers, Klingon, Romulan and Federation have ALWAYS been in the alpha quadrant with just the far side of romulan space extending into Beta.
As far as the posters who are saying this is an old topic and I was beating a dead horse that was talked about too much already, the old maps were not obvious to me that those areas were not just all part of the alpha quadrant which they should be. The books your using as reference to substantiate the belief that the Beta quadrant was the home of the major powers are all departing from what was actually said in the shows or in any of the approved ST novels.
The new map arrangement with the Name -Beta Quadrant and all 3 major powers there on it is a blatant departure and nonsequitor that goes against what was said in actual dialog over and over again in both DS9 and Voyager. That much is obvious, and that is a far more accepted 'fact' then what some reference book that made up most of the contents based on two obscure movie props.
THE 3 MAJOR POWERS BELONG IN THE ALPHA QUADRANT! ALPHISTS UNITE!
Regarding the bolded part: wrong... only the Federation (as well as the Cardassian Union and other powers) belong in the Alpha Quadrant... the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire have always since the beginning of time in Star Trek resided and belonged in the Beta Quadrant...
I can understand players who might have problems with lag or game crashes complaining, I can understand players who might have problems logging in complaining, I can understand players who might have problems with ships, weapons and shields and such complaining and I can even understand players having difficulty completing story or qued missions and difficulty levels and rewards complaining.
threads about such trivial matters as this I just cant understand, if they move a star system a few millimetres so it falls in one sector instead of another who cares.
especially when the reasons for the move have already been explained ages ago and are perfectly reasonable.
.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Regarding the bolded part: wrong... only the Federation (as well as the Cardassian Union and other powers) belong in the Alpha Quadrant... the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire have always since the beginning of time in Star Trek resided and belonged in the Beta Quadrant...
Then why in Deep Space Nine when they (the romulans, Klingons and federation) call themselves the Alpha Quadrant Alliance against the Dominion? And why are changelings that are stuck on this side of the wormhole referred to as Alphas? why not Alpha-Betas? they could have there own cereal instead of using that Ketracel white stuff like crack cocaine? There are MANY examples in actual shows that refer to the 3 major races as the most powerful in the ALPHA quadrant. There has been very few references to the Beta quadrant in actual episode or movies of Star Trek, one is when they mention that the Romulans had not been seen in many years when re-introduced in TNG, the stated reason being that they were expanding there empire into the Beta quadrant.
CANON IS IMPORTANT you fool. Without it there would be no game. And secondly its insulting to just do whatever you want to CANON material of a universe just because you think it would be better. Janeway said Alpha quadrant Meaning the quadrant itself NOT HOME. BEcause if that was the case she wouldnt have used the term delta she would have called it something else.
I said gameplay is more important than canon. I never said that Canon was not important. Following Canon would mean that our ships wouldn't respawn when they are destroyed, have to spend weeks travelling to the Delta Quadrant, or repairing the ship at a shipyard when damaged. All of this would make the game not fun for most players. Gameplay is the various mechanics involved that make the game playable and usually doesn't include the look of ships, stories, and other content that make the game Star Trek.
As others have said, Cryptic made a choice where Sol is due to the fact that it is on the border of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants and it is impossible for Cryptic to put Sol in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Putting it on the Beta Quadrant makes sense since Vulcan and Andoria are in the Beta Quadrant and Sol should be on the same side as the main founding members of the Federation.
Besides Canon has flown out of the window with Dinos with lasers and playable Undine starships.
Would you say London wasn't a Western city because half of it is East of the prime meridian? Germany is still a Western country despite all of it being in the East.
There's geography (astrography) and then there's politics.
Then why in Deep Space Nine when they (the romulans, Klingons and federation) call themselves the Alpha Quadrant Alliance against the Dominion? And why are changelings that are stuck on this side of the wormhole referred to as Alphas? why not Alpha-Betas?
Probably for the same reason USA inhabitants are usually called "american", while they don't own the entire continent, and share it with several countries instead.
The people refer to them as the alpha, because it's convenient. And it's much cooler to be alpha than beta.
Also I'd like to mention that it seems odd, that the order of the quadrants is jumbled, even in canon.
Normaly you would start with alpha, then beta, then gamma and delta...counted clockwise.
This would make the current beta quadrant the actual alpha quadrant and the current alpha the actual beta quadrant.
as it is now they are counted in an inverse Z motion... which is an odd way to name/count
Because the Bajoran side of the wormhole is in the Alpha Quadrant not on the border of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
You lose
I would rather lose .. but be intelligent enough to know for a fact when someone's pissing down my leg and trying to convince me that it is raining.
I guess IGNORANCE is bliss, so go ahead and enjoy your game confortable and happy being ignorant to the fact that the whole map is TRIBBLE-backwards.
The idea that the federation somehow straddles the alpha quadrant and the Klingon and rom empires is in Beta Quadrant is something that was invented by reference books after all the series ended and not supported by anthing said in any series , movie or paperback novel... Just because Wiki says it doesn't make it true, Wiki contradicts itself 8 times when talking about the quadrants, but everything it says on one side of this argument is from books that made up TRIBBLE that was never stated in any of the series.
The ENTIRE romulan , Klingon and Federation was IS and always will be entirely in the Alpha quadrants according to the one mention of the romulans expanding their empire into Beta. There is absolutely no support of any other belief in any other placement of the major powers other than in the ALPHA QUADRANT in anything in the star trek episodes or movies. The reference books you all are listening to or articles which reference these books are all TRIBBLE, go back and play any star trek games, including STAR FLEET BATTLES from the 1980's and you will see that all references to all three races place them all in the ALPHA QUADRANT, these books that came later long after the series ended only convinced people that haven't been around long enough to know better. With STO using these books as reference instead of using the actual dialog from the actual series as reference they have chosen to propagate a revisionist history that is not supported by any series or even any star trek paperback novel.
When they decide to make a new Star Trek series about a ship that explores the Beta Quadrant and has to deal with all kinds of unknown threats and makes it clear, ONCE AGAIN that we have never been to the Beta Quadrant before in any Epidsode or movie of Star Trek, then you all will see how idiotic those books and this whole argument is.
I cant believe there is anyone who calls themselves a fan of Star Trek that doesn't know this as an obvious given and I am actually argueing about something so damn obvious in all the Star Trek shows, just because some idiots made a book that goes against everything the show ever said and the STO devs were dumb enough to follow that book when designing their map and not know any better. BUT you people just know for a fact that Klingons and Romulans have always been in the Beta Quadrant because some book says so, long after the last Star Trek series ended ... when all you have to do is actually watch the series and follow that instead of a book that gets the entire universe back-asswards!
Just know that the next time they make a Star Trek show and they ONCE AGAIN state that they are in the EFFING ALPHA quadrant , that I am out there laughing at you and the devs of this game.
I would rather lose .. but be intelligent enough to know for a fact when someone's pissing down my leg and trying to convince me that it is raining.
I guess IGNORANCE is bliss, so go ahead and enjoy your game confortable and happy being ignorant to the fact that the whole map is TRIBBLE-backwards.
The idea that the federation somehow straddles the alpha quadrant and the Klingon and rom empires is in Beta Quadrant is something that was invented by reference books after all the series ended and not supported by anthing said in any series , movie or paperback novel... Just because Wiki says it doesn't make it true, Wiki contradicts itself 8 times when talking about the quadrants, but everything it says on one side of this argument is from books that made up TRIBBLE that was never stated in any of the series.
The ENTIRE romulan , Klingon and Federation was IS and always will be entirely in the Alpha quadrants according to the one mention of the romulans expanding their empire into Beta. There is absolutely no support of any other belief in any other placement of the major powers other than in the ALPHA QUADRANT in anything in the star trek episodes or movies. The reference books you all are listening to or articles which reference these books are all TRIBBLE, go back and play any star trek games, including STAR FLEET BATTLES from the 1980's and you will see that all references to all three races place them all in the ALPHA QUADRANT, these books that came later long after the series ended only convinced people that haven't been around long enough to know better. With STO using these books as reference instead of using the actual dialog from the actual series as reference they have chosen to propagate a revisionist history that is not supported by any series or even any star trek paperback novel.
There was absolutely no Star Trek Bible that displayed the exact location of every single star system. Any Star Trek fan that has been around for a while knows that Star Trek makes **** up. Creating a map based on just dialogue from the shows is completely preposterous.
In order to create a space MMO, you need the location of every star system in the game. Using canon to do it would be a nightmare since there is far too much contradictory information in Star Trek and a star system located 10.4 lightyears from Rigel is not enough information to create a map. Therefore, Cryptic had to use a book that made up TRIBBLE that was never stated in any of the series instead of the impossible task of using actual dialog to create the maps. The reference book that STO used was created by a bunch of people that actually worked on Star Trek. So Cryptic either had the choice of using a reference book that is as close to canon as possible or waste years on trying to create a map.
The whole Quadrant system is an Earth-based system. So it would make sense that one of the axis goes right through Sol. Therefore, the Federation is in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant due to humans' superiority complex. If the Federation was only in the Alpha Quadrant, then there would be something terribly wrong since humans always need to be in the center.
There was absolutely no Star Trek Bible that displayed the exact location of every single star system. Any Star Trek fan that has been around for a while knows that Star Trek makes **** up. Creating a map based on just dialogue from the shows is completely preposterous.
This. There is a FAQ from Taco, and I quote the relevant information :
Q: Why is Sol in the Beta Quadrant? (or, "Janeway never said she was going to the Beta Quadrant!")
A: Short answer? Because the writers of Star Trek used "Alpha" as a keyword for home.
In reality (fiction), Sol should be directly on the line between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. However, merging the Alpha and Beta quadrant maps together was not possible, so we had to have a split between them. As such, putting Sol on that division is very problematic. Instead, we decided to keep Sol roughly where it has been since launch, on the Beta Quadrant side, in the upper left corner of the Vulcan Sector
as a note, the OP keeps bringing up the novels... but iirc CBS, Paramount, & Roddenberry said that the novels are not canon and are merely fan-fiction... you're free to read and enjoy the novels but if anyone that has worked on the television/film franchise contradicts the novels then that new data is considered canon above the novelized fan-fiction... considering Star Trek Star Charts was written with information provided by those that worked on the television show and movies, i'd take their word over fan-fiction any day...
The idea that the federation somehow straddles the alpha quadrant and the Klingon and rom empires is in Beta Quadrant is something that was invented by reference books after all the series ended
This isn't true. Reference books made during the series run had maps showing the galaxy in this configuration. Like the 1998 DS9 Technical Manual which has a map showing Earth between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. This map also appeared on a PADD in Star Trek Insurrection. There is also a map showing Voyager's journey, seen in "Endgame" which shows Voyager's destination as the border of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
There is absolutely no support of any other belief in any other placement of the major powers other than in the ALPHA QUADRANT in anything in the star trek episodes or movies.
Except that in Star Trek VI, the USS Enterprise traveled deep within Klingon Space and when they speak with Sulu he says the Excelsior is in the Alpha Quadrant. This clearly implies the Enterprise, deep within Klingon Space, is in the Beta Quadrant and why the Excelsior was too far away to be of any help. Of course Sulu pushed her to her limits and managed to get there just in time. Earlier in the film, the Excelsior was in the Beta Quadrant when Praxis exploded and she was both caught in the blast and close enough to offer assistance.
go back and play any star trek games, including STAR FLEET BATTLES from the 1980's and you will see that all references to all three races place them all in the ALPHA QUADRANT
But glorified fan fiction written by people who didn't work on the show is perfectly acceptable? What?!
ONCE AGAIN that we have never been to the Beta Quadrant before in any Epidsode or movie of Star Trek
Minus of course Star Trek VI where a large portion of the film takes place in the Beta Quadrant. And the Deep Space Nine episode "The Sound of Her Voice" where the USS Olympia was on an eight year journey through the Beta Quadrant.
The position of Sol is where it's supposed to be following Okuda and other people who know their stuff, also it's closer to it's actual position as well.
However, and I am actually with the OP here, I don't understand why, with this recreation of sector space, Sol was placed in the Beta-Quadrant, even in dialogue reference. Yes, it's on the edge, but was also referred to as Alpha Quadrant. Couldn't they put Sol on the Alpha side, to the edge of the map and allow us to directly warp to sol from the edge of the beta map?
Yes, everybody complaining hasn't deserved to play this game and all, that's nothing new. And Sol's position isn't gamebreaking either, but - as Taco himself put in the FAQ - show dialogue always referred to the Alpha quadrant. I understand the pragmatic reasons and that it is of course not important because the game goes on - but I understand that this is s questionable design choice regarding the established show canon that could have been handled better.
Then again, STO isn'T exactly known to be true to canon anyway, so
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If you went by the actual series and paperback fiction that was actually controlled content and approved by the Paramount studios. You would have Earth in the center of the Federation and the Federation at the center of the Alpha quadrant with romulans to the upper left and Klingons to the lower left of the Federation all in the Alpha Quadrant.
The idea that the federation somehow straddles the alpha quadrant and the Klingon and rom empires is in Beta Quadrant is something that was invented by reference books after all the series ended and not supported by anthing said in any series , movie or paperback novel.
Both wrong, mostwill show the SOL system exactly on the separation line between alpha and beta. (Not all; plenty of inconsistencies between ST resources)
I'm not going to say here it should be in alpha/beta, but I can certainly see why it could go either way.
Don't believe me: take a look here and here.
The ENTIRE romulan , Klingon and Federation was IS and always will be entirely in the Alpha quadrants according to the one mention of the romulans expanding their empire into Beta.
Let me get this straight.. you would use a single mention somewhere yet next claim the ST Star Charts are not cannon (even though they were composed by many of the same people working on cannon ST series, based on data gathered from all cannon ST resources.)..
For the record, the romuland and klingon empires are according to cannon mostly located in the beta quadrant. Take a look here at this SS from LCARS. (It is meant to show the respective strength of the different factions.)
You'll notice that both the romulan star empire and the klingon empire are located in the beta quadrant. No doubt you'll also notice that the Federation cylinder is depicted in the alpha quadrant, but if you look closer you'll see that vulcan is well in beta quadrant and earth is shown on the line between both quadrants.. knowing vulcan is a federation founding member, it's reasonable to assume that the federation spans both quadrants.
Let's get one thing straight.. the ST movies/episodes/books are a mess when it comes to consistency.. there wasn't much of a map to start with and "alpha" was indeed often referred to as "home". This is probably even correct for many characters in the series because a large part of the federation extends into the alpha quadrant, so a lot of characters will have had their homeworld in the alpha quadrant or consider it home. This is something which isn't very well shown in STO imho, because nearly all FED missions and implemented worlds are located in the beta quadrant.. even looking at the maps it is (or was; pre S10) hard to see the federation extends much into the alpha quadrant.
Lets take ST : Voyager as an example, one of the most obvious series in which "alpha quadrant" is referred to as going home.
So lets look at a few maps used to show voyagers route in the series: here or here (map from voyager prop).
Even though they constantly talk about returning to the alpha quadrant, voyager's route doesn't even take them into the alpha quadrant! The entire last leg is on the borders of the romulan and klingon empires.. also shown in the beta quadrant (first link).
None of these resources show exactly which quadrant sol should be in, but it's clearly very much on the border..
I think the only map that shows SOL in the middle of the alpha quadrant with romulans and klingons around it is the one you've constructed in your mind based on an interpretation of what you think you've seen or read..
And let's remember.. cannon ST isn't exactly known for perfect consistency..:rolleyes:
I have purposely avoided using resources based on ST Star Chars since you seem to have some sort of illogical distrust for it or think it's based on JJ's interpretation.. neither of which is true though. It pre-dates the JJ ST universe and was build based on the cannon ST resources by many of the same ppl.
A couple more pictures showing the exact same thing: here and here.
edit: took me so long to write this & in the mean time it seems thomaselkins also posted some very good cannon pics..
if you look at this map from Wikipedia you will see that earth is right on the border between the two quadrants, this is nothing to do with STO but according to star trek lore.
The Milky Way's four galactic quadrants as depicted in Star Trek along with labels noting locations of the major political forces.
obviously for game purposes they had to decide to put earth in one of the two maps as putting it on the border would have been unworkable.
as on the old sto map earth was firmly in the sirus sector block and this resides mostly in the beta quadrant it seems only right to me that this is where it is placed in the new map.
old sto map showing sol system in sirus sector block.
it is true that in many of the shows they refer to earth as being in the alpha quadrant but this is only for convenience as it would have been silly to keep referring to it as being in both or in alpha/beta quadrants as it clearly was.
also I am sure in voyager the crew would have been quite happy to find a short cut to the alpha or beta quadrants as either would have been as close to home as each other although they often refer to getting back to the alpha quadrent.
that's just one of the pitfalls of living on the border between two places, as was the case with the dispute over ownership of Preah Vihear Temple built on the border between Cambodia and Thailand.
having said that for RPG purposes you can let your imagination run wild and imagine sol and earth to be firmly on the border between the two quadrants as it is as near to the border as they could get it.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The position of Sol is where it's supposed to be following Okuda and other people who know their stuff, also it's closer to it's actual position as well.
However, and I am actually with the OP here, I don't understand why, with this recreation of sector space, Sol was placed in the Beta-Quadrant, even in dialogue reference. Yes, it's on the edge, but was also referred to as Alpha Quadrant. Couldn't they put Sol on the Alpha side, to the edge of the map and allow us to directly warp to sol from the edge of the beta map?
Yes, everybody complaining hasn't deserved to play this game and all, that's nothing new. And Sol's position isn't gamebreaking either, but - as Taco himself put in the FAQ - show dialogue always referred to the Alpha quadrant. I understand the pragmatic reasons and that it is of course not important because the game goes on - but I understand that this is s questionable design choice regarding the established show canon that could have been handled better.
Then again, STO isn'T exactly known to be true to canon anyway, so
taco mentioned that, aside from the fact sol straddles both quadrants, with most of the fed starting missions occuring in the beta quadrant, around vulcan etc, it made sense to leave Sol on this side, keeping a new captains initial progress close to home and not crossing any borders. it is a game at the end of the day, and the single most important thing is to maintain continuity within gameplay. im certainly not going to argue with the guys that worked on the original shows or argue against the game artists who took the time to produce these new maps, after doing plenty of research, and then to top it off, taking the time to ratify and explain any decisions that may seem unusual or out of place. in light of this exta information and resoning, the OP is just being silly.. prissy, shortsighted, arrogant and a little funy.. but mainly just silly.
taco mentioned that, aside from the fact sol straddles both quadrants, with most of the fed starting missions occuring in the beta quadrant, around vulcan etc, it made sense to leave Sol on this side, keeping a new captains initial progress close to home and not crossing any borders. it is a game at the end of the day, and the single most important thing is to maintain continuity within gameplay. im certainly not going to argue with the guys that worked on the original shows or argue against the game artists who took the time to produce these new maps, after doing plenty of research, and then to top it off, taking the time to ratify and explain any decisions that may seem unusual or out of place. in light of this exta information and resoning, the OP is just being silly.. prissy, shortsighted, arrogant and a little funy.. but mainly just silly.
I understand that, but I still don't agree with it. The poor new players that basically wet themselves in terror because they have to change or cross a map was a reason I personally didn't accept back when they claimed Exploration Clusters were what held STO's development back and I still don accept it now
Now, I don't throw a tantrum about it, mind you. All my hopes regarding STO being a "perfect Star Trek game" have died since Beta, so there's really nothing to "complain" (in the small frame of nitpicking a game based on a sci-fi show) left. I do however perfectly understand the "confusion" players experience now with Sol being placed and referred to as "Beta Quadrant" when this wasn't ever the case in the shows. On the other hand I am also puzzled at the hostility people experience when they ask the question, as if it was completely unnatural to do so and we all are like "Ah, of course Sol is in the Beta Quadrant. It's been always this way. Silly OP, asking questions."
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
On the other hand I am also puzzled at the hostility people experience when they ask the question, as if it was completely unnatural to do so and we all are like "Ah, of course Sol is in the Beta Quadrant. It's been always this way. Silly OP, asking questions."
I think it's more that by this point the question is a dead, dead horse that was dead long before this even went live. And it should be pretty abundantly clear by now that the location of Sol is not going to change.
I'm as big of a ST nerd as anyone, but there are bigger fish to fry than this, and it feels to me like a huge waste of everyone's time--especially the devs, whom I would frankly rather spend that time improving the game instead of feeling like they need to address this tempest in a teapot.
Fleet Admiral L'Yern - Screenshot and doffing addict
Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
The only way to have the map accurate is to no borders between quadrants. As that doesn't seem possible, putting it where gameplay makes the most sense to put it is a good thing for the game.
Comments
No they don't, the Klingon and Romulan Empires have both always, ALWAYS have been stated as being in the Beta Quadrant. The Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta quadrants are all the designations given by the UFP and Sol sits literally right on the border of the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Starfleet seem to just use the Alpha quadrant as a catchall phrase for both. Besides since the majority of the game so far takes place IN the Beta quadrant it is the logical choice to have Sol where it is.
CANON IS IMPORTANT you fool. Without it there would be no game. And secondly its insulting to just do whatever you want to CANON material of a universe just because you think it would be better. Janeway said Alpha quadrant Meaning the quadrant itself NOT HOME. BEcause if that was the case she wouldnt have used the term delta she would have called it something else.
Finally, someone who has actually watched the episodes and read any Star Trek novels and doesn't just go by what 'wiki' has to say about it. If you go by source material alone it is obvious that all 3 major powers, Klingon, Romulan and Federation have ALWAYS been in the alpha quadrant with just the far side of romulan space extending into Beta.
As far as the posters who are saying this is an old topic and I was beating a dead horse that was talked about too much already, the old maps were not obvious to me that those areas were not just all part of the alpha quadrant which they should be. The books your using as reference to substantiate the belief that the Beta quadrant was the home of the major powers are all departing from what was actually said in the shows or in any of the approved ST novels.
The new map arrangement with the Name -Beta Quadrant and all 3 major powers there on it is a blatant departure and nonsequitor that goes against what was said in actual dialog over and over again in both DS9 and Voyager. That much is obvious, and that is a far more accepted 'fact' then what some reference book that made up most of the contents based on two obscure movie props.
THE 3 MAJOR POWERS BELONG IN THE ALPHA QUADRANT! ALPHISTS UNITE!
threads about such trivial matters as this I just cant understand, if they move a star system a few millimetres so it falls in one sector instead of another who cares.
especially when the reasons for the move have already been explained ages ago and are perfectly reasonable.
.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Then why in Deep Space Nine when they (the romulans, Klingons and federation) call themselves the Alpha Quadrant Alliance against the Dominion? And why are changelings that are stuck on this side of the wormhole referred to as Alphas? why not Alpha-Betas? they could have there own cereal instead of using that Ketracel white stuff like crack cocaine? There are MANY examples in actual shows that refer to the 3 major races as the most powerful in the ALPHA quadrant. There has been very few references to the Beta quadrant in actual episode or movies of Star Trek, one is when they mention that the Romulans had not been seen in many years when re-introduced in TNG, the stated reason being that they were expanding there empire into the Beta quadrant.
ALPHISTS UNITE!
I said gameplay is more important than canon. I never said that Canon was not important. Following Canon would mean that our ships wouldn't respawn when they are destroyed, have to spend weeks travelling to the Delta Quadrant, or repairing the ship at a shipyard when damaged. All of this would make the game not fun for most players. Gameplay is the various mechanics involved that make the game playable and usually doesn't include the look of ships, stories, and other content that make the game Star Trek.
As others have said, Cryptic made a choice where Sol is due to the fact that it is on the border of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants and it is impossible for Cryptic to put Sol in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Putting it on the Beta Quadrant makes sense since Vulcan and Andoria are in the Beta Quadrant and Sol should be on the same side as the main founding members of the Federation.
Besides Canon has flown out of the window with Dinos with lasers and playable Undine starships.
Would you say London wasn't a Western city because half of it is East of the prime meridian? Germany is still a Western country despite all of it being in the East.
There's geography (astrography) and then there's politics.
The people refer to them as the alpha, because it's convenient. And it's much cooler to be alpha than beta.
Normaly you would start with alpha, then beta, then gamma and delta...counted clockwise.
This would make the current beta quadrant the actual alpha quadrant and the current alpha the actual beta quadrant.
as it is now they are counted in an inverse Z motion... which is an odd way to name/count
I would rather lose .. but be intelligent enough to know for a fact when someone's pissing down my leg and trying to convince me that it is raining.
I guess IGNORANCE is bliss, so go ahead and enjoy your game confortable and happy being ignorant to the fact that the whole map is TRIBBLE-backwards.
The idea that the federation somehow straddles the alpha quadrant and the Klingon and rom empires is in Beta Quadrant is something that was invented by reference books after all the series ended and not supported by anthing said in any series , movie or paperback novel... Just because Wiki says it doesn't make it true, Wiki contradicts itself 8 times when talking about the quadrants, but everything it says on one side of this argument is from books that made up TRIBBLE that was never stated in any of the series.
The ENTIRE romulan , Klingon and Federation was IS and always will be entirely in the Alpha quadrants according to the one mention of the romulans expanding their empire into Beta. There is absolutely no support of any other belief in any other placement of the major powers other than in the ALPHA QUADRANT in anything in the star trek episodes or movies. The reference books you all are listening to or articles which reference these books are all TRIBBLE, go back and play any star trek games, including STAR FLEET BATTLES from the 1980's and you will see that all references to all three races place them all in the ALPHA QUADRANT, these books that came later long after the series ended only convinced people that haven't been around long enough to know better. With STO using these books as reference instead of using the actual dialog from the actual series as reference they have chosen to propagate a revisionist history that is not supported by any series or even any star trek paperback novel.
When they decide to make a new Star Trek series about a ship that explores the Beta Quadrant and has to deal with all kinds of unknown threats and makes it clear, ONCE AGAIN that we have never been to the Beta Quadrant before in any Epidsode or movie of Star Trek, then you all will see how idiotic those books and this whole argument is.
I cant believe there is anyone who calls themselves a fan of Star Trek that doesn't know this as an obvious given and I am actually argueing about something so damn obvious in all the Star Trek shows, just because some idiots made a book that goes against everything the show ever said and the STO devs were dumb enough to follow that book when designing their map and not know any better. BUT you people just know for a fact that Klingons and Romulans have always been in the Beta Quadrant because some book says so, long after the last Star Trek series ended ... when all you have to do is actually watch the series and follow that instead of a book that gets the entire universe back-asswards!
Just know that the next time they make a Star Trek show and they ONCE AGAIN state that they are in the EFFING ALPHA quadrant , that I am out there laughing at you and the devs of this game.
ALPHISTS UNITE!
Yeah.. Okay..
There was absolutely no Star Trek Bible that displayed the exact location of every single star system. Any Star Trek fan that has been around for a while knows that Star Trek makes **** up. Creating a map based on just dialogue from the shows is completely preposterous.
In order to create a space MMO, you need the location of every star system in the game. Using canon to do it would be a nightmare since there is far too much contradictory information in Star Trek and a star system located 10.4 lightyears from Rigel is not enough information to create a map. Therefore, Cryptic had to use a book that made up TRIBBLE that was never stated in any of the series instead of the impossible task of using actual dialog to create the maps. The reference book that STO used was created by a bunch of people that actually worked on Star Trek. So Cryptic either had the choice of using a reference book that is as close to canon as possible or waste years on trying to create a map.
The whole Quadrant system is an Earth-based system. So it would make sense that one of the axis goes right through Sol. Therefore, the Federation is in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant due to humans' superiority complex. If the Federation was only in the Alpha Quadrant, then there would be something terribly wrong since humans always need to be in the center.
Orbiting requires movement. So maybe Sol crossed the border into the Beta quadrant over the last 40 years...
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This isn't true. Reference books made during the series run had maps showing the galaxy in this configuration. Like the 1998 DS9 Technical Manual which has a map showing Earth between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. This map also appeared on a PADD in Star Trek Insurrection. There is also a map showing Voyager's journey, seen in "Endgame" which shows Voyager's destination as the border of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
Except that in Star Trek VI, the USS Enterprise traveled deep within Klingon Space and when they speak with Sulu he says the Excelsior is in the Alpha Quadrant. This clearly implies the Enterprise, deep within Klingon Space, is in the Beta Quadrant and why the Excelsior was too far away to be of any help. Of course Sulu pushed her to her limits and managed to get there just in time. Earlier in the film, the Excelsior was in the Beta Quadrant when Praxis exploded and she was both caught in the blast and close enough to offer assistance.
You mean reference material written by the people who actually made the show is TRIBBLE?
But glorified fan fiction written by people who didn't work on the show is perfectly acceptable? What?!
No they didn't.
Minus of course Star Trek VI where a large portion of the film takes place in the Beta Quadrant. And the Deep Space Nine episode "The Sound of Her Voice" where the USS Olympia was on an eight year journey through the Beta Quadrant.
plus you're facing off against well known and very highly respected, experienced ST fans/STO players.
if you continue down that path, for it will lead you to Dark Side. :P
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However, and I am actually with the OP here, I don't understand why, with this recreation of sector space, Sol was placed in the Beta-Quadrant, even in dialogue reference. Yes, it's on the edge, but was also referred to as Alpha Quadrant. Couldn't they put Sol on the Alpha side, to the edge of the map and allow us to directly warp to sol from the edge of the beta map?
Yes, everybody complaining hasn't deserved to play this game and all, that's nothing new. And Sol's position isn't gamebreaking either, but - as Taco himself put in the FAQ - show dialogue always referred to the Alpha quadrant. I understand the pragmatic reasons and that it is of course not important because the game goes on - but I understand that this is s questionable design choice regarding the established show canon that could have been handled better.
Then again, STO isn'T exactly known to be true to canon anyway, so
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I think some fans might actually die if this is not fixed - do you want their deaths on your hand cryptic? do you?
Both wrong, mostwill show the SOL system exactly on the separation line between alpha and beta. (Not all; plenty of inconsistencies between ST resources)
I'm not going to say here it should be in alpha/beta, but I can certainly see why it could go either way.
Don't believe me: take a look here and here.
Let me get this straight.. you would use a single mention somewhere yet next claim the ST Star Charts are not cannon (even though they were composed by many of the same people working on cannon ST series, based on data gathered from all cannon ST resources.)..
For the record, the romuland and klingon empires are according to cannon mostly located in the beta quadrant. Take a look here at this SS from LCARS. (It is meant to show the respective strength of the different factions.)
You'll notice that both the romulan star empire and the klingon empire are located in the beta quadrant. No doubt you'll also notice that the Federation cylinder is depicted in the alpha quadrant, but if you look closer you'll see that vulcan is well in beta quadrant and earth is shown on the line between both quadrants.. knowing vulcan is a federation founding member, it's reasonable to assume that the federation spans both quadrants.
Let's get one thing straight.. the ST movies/episodes/books are a mess when it comes to consistency.. there wasn't much of a map to start with and "alpha" was indeed often referred to as "home". This is probably even correct for many characters in the series because a large part of the federation extends into the alpha quadrant, so a lot of characters will have had their homeworld in the alpha quadrant or consider it home.
This is something which isn't very well shown in STO imho, because nearly all FED missions and implemented worlds are located in the beta quadrant.. even looking at the maps it is (or was; pre S10) hard to see the federation extends much into the alpha quadrant.
Lets take ST : Voyager as an example, one of the most obvious series in which "alpha quadrant" is referred to as going home.
So lets look at a few maps used to show voyagers route in the series: here or here (map from voyager prop).
Even though they constantly talk about returning to the alpha quadrant, voyager's route doesn't even take them into the alpha quadrant! The entire last leg is on the borders of the romulan and klingon empires.. also shown in the beta quadrant (first link).
None of these resources show exactly which quadrant sol should be in, but it's clearly very much on the border..
I think the only map that shows SOL in the middle of the alpha quadrant with romulans and klingons around it is the one you've constructed in your mind based on an interpretation of what you think you've seen or read..
And let's remember.. cannon ST isn't exactly known for perfect consistency..:rolleyes:
I have purposely avoided using resources based on ST Star Chars since you seem to have some sort of illogical distrust for it or think it's based on JJ's interpretation.. neither of which is true though. It pre-dates the JJ ST universe and was build based on the cannon ST resources by many of the same ppl.
A couple more pictures showing the exact same thing: here and here.
edit: took me so long to write this & in the mean time it seems thomaselkins also posted some very good cannon pics..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaB_G1WNT70
The Milky Way's four galactic quadrants as depicted in Star Trek along with labels noting locations of the major political forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_quadrant_(Star_Trek)#/media/File:Galactic_Quadrant_Star_Trek.png
obviously for game purposes they had to decide to put earth in one of the two maps as putting it on the border would have been unworkable.
as on the old sto map earth was firmly in the sirus sector block and this resides mostly in the beta quadrant it seems only right to me that this is where it is placed in the new map.
old sto map showing sol system in sirus sector block.
http://www.kfguides.com/images/STO/STO%20-%20Galaxy.jpg
it is true that in many of the shows they refer to earth as being in the alpha quadrant but this is only for convenience as it would have been silly to keep referring to it as being in both or in alpha/beta quadrants as it clearly was.
also I am sure in voyager the crew would have been quite happy to find a short cut to the alpha or beta quadrants as either would have been as close to home as each other although they often refer to getting back to the alpha quadrent.
that's just one of the pitfalls of living on the border between two places, as was the case with the dispute over ownership of Preah Vihear Temple built on the border between Cambodia and Thailand.
having said that for RPG purposes you can let your imagination run wild and imagine sol and earth to be firmly on the border between the two quadrants as it is as near to the border as they could get it.
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taco mentioned that, aside from the fact sol straddles both quadrants, with most of the fed starting missions occuring in the beta quadrant, around vulcan etc, it made sense to leave Sol on this side, keeping a new captains initial progress close to home and not crossing any borders. it is a game at the end of the day, and the single most important thing is to maintain continuity within gameplay. im certainly not going to argue with the guys that worked on the original shows or argue against the game artists who took the time to produce these new maps, after doing plenty of research, and then to top it off, taking the time to ratify and explain any decisions that may seem unusual or out of place. in light of this exta information and resoning, the OP is just being silly.. prissy, shortsighted, arrogant and a little funy.. but mainly just silly.
I understand that, but I still don't agree with it. The poor new players that basically wet themselves in terror because they have to change or cross a map was a reason I personally didn't accept back when they claimed Exploration Clusters were what held STO's development back and I still don accept it now
Now, I don't throw a tantrum about it, mind you. All my hopes regarding STO being a "perfect Star Trek game" have died since Beta, so there's really nothing to "complain" (in the small frame of nitpicking a game based on a sci-fi show) left. I do however perfectly understand the "confusion" players experience now with Sol being placed and referred to as "Beta Quadrant" when this wasn't ever the case in the shows. On the other hand I am also puzzled at the hostility people experience when they ask the question, as if it was completely unnatural to do so and we all are like "Ah, of course Sol is in the Beta Quadrant. It's been always this way. Silly OP, asking questions."
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I'm as big of a ST nerd as anyone, but there are bigger fish to fry than this, and it feels to me like a huge waste of everyone's time--especially the devs, whom I would frankly rather spend that time improving the game instead of feeling like they need to address this tempest in a teapot.
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