I think that it should be pointed out that Tom Paris was a doughy, whiny loser. He didn't get along with others and had no demonstrated leadership ability.
Someone up-thread mentioned that he got a girl pregnant and married her (not in that order), so, I mean, wow, make him admiral of the ocean seas or something, no one has ever accomplished those things before.
Personally, I don't believe people change. Not like that. Losers like Paris stay that way unless they go through some sort of extreme suffering, and Paris never did (like starvation, not like "My wife is prettier than me and smarter than me and more interesting than me but she doesn't follow my orders in a little shuttle craft race! My life is terrible."). He may want a more stable job since he has a family, but Starfleet doesn't care if a discharged then demoted officer wants to be captain.
The dude's favorite passtime was watching TV in an age where no one watches TV. Nuff said.
Actually his favorite pasttime was playing out his fantasy Captain Proton in the Holodecks. Secondly who was it that retook Voyager from the Kazons with the help of a few Talaxians? Without that the crew is stranded on a planet end of story.
btw if you read the full post of paris... is says his rise and fall in ranks at star fleet. apparently he did make admiral at one time... got demoted, currently back to cap now.
so tom paris is like james kirk. both made admiral but got demoted back down to cap
They may be referring to his demotion on Voyager, in that episode with the Water Planet.
I do get it on the surface level... this is the easiest way to get him into the game... but, why is Tom Paris a captain? Better yet, why is he still in Starfleet?
He never struck me as a "career" guy, despite his time on Voyager. That time changed him, matured him, and made him the man he always was supposed to be... great. That doesn't mean he needs to be in Starfleet to be that way.
He CERTAINLY doesn't need to be in the center seat. This is kinda my quiet problem with the Star Trek "extended universe" in the novels and what not: not everyone needs to be super-awesome at their job. Ezri Dax becomes a captain... Beverly Crusher becomes chief of Starfleet Medical (again)... Tuvok becomes an admiral... Jonathan Archer became Starfleet C-in-C, before becoming President of the UFP... BLAH. For once, I want to meet someone like Reg Barclay... and he's still a lieutenant.
what because he was a failure once, didnt mean he cant learn to overcome what life threw at him?
he thought himself a mercenary and a drifter, he hyped himself up to think thats what he is because others stated it, but he realized thats not what he wanted after the 1st year on voyager.
He built himself a life, had friends and belonged somewhere for once, the third season was the kicker for Tom, when he became sexually attracted to B'Elanna and he was apparently far from subtle about it.
He also built strong friendships with people he never thought he would, he even gained the respect of Tuvok and Chakotay to a point and the entire crew for the big saves hes pulled off and the people hes rescued, Chakotay included.
When B'Elanna got pregant tom was in a far more serious and prepared location, then he was 7 years earlier, he really did things for himself, for his ship and crewmates and for starfleet in that time. he changed, he learned to overcome some of things that was thrown at him.
While his first attempt at 1st officer under Chakotay was less than ideal, Tom learned some really useful lessons from Chakotay despite their differences. those skills he would of picked up from Chakotay may have been enough to help Tom realize that he can find himself and learn even more potential he may not of even realized he had.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
They may be referring to his demotion on Voyager, in that episode with the Water Planet.
"Since returning to the Alpha Quadrant, Paris stayed in Starfleet... Rising (and falling) through the ranks, Paris now commands his own ship... Just don't ask about that time they tried to make him an admiral. It didnt work out."
what because he was a failure once, didnt mean he cant learn to overcome what life threw at him?
he thought himself a mercenary and a drifter, he hyped himself up to think thats what he is because others stated it, but he realized thats not what he wanted after the 1st year on voyager.
He built himself a life, had friends and belonged somewhere for once, the third season was the kicker for Tom, when he became sexually attracted to B'Elanna and he was apparently far from subtle about it.
He also built strong friendships with people he never thought he would, he even gained the respect of Tuvok and Chakotay to a point and the entire crew for the big saves hes pulled off and the people hes rescued, Chakotay included.
When B'Elanna got pregant tom was in a far more serious and prepared location, then he was 7 years earlier, he really did things for himself, for his ship and crewmates and for starfleet in that time. he changed, he learned to overcome some of things that was thrown at him.
While his first attempt at 1st officer under Chakotay was less than ideal, Tom learned some really useful lessons from Chakotay despite their differences. those skills he would of picked up from Chakotay may have been enough to help Tom realize that he can find himself and learn even more potential he may not of even realized he had.
Some people actually believe that once a TRIBBLE up always a TRIBBLE up. In most cases Id have to agree but some people struggle to see how characters like Tom Paris are the exception to the rule and have overcome their poor choices earlier in their lives.
"Since returning to the Alpha Quadrant, Paris stayed in Starfleet... Rising (and falling) through the ranks, Paris now commands his own ship... Just don't ask about that time they tried to make him an admiral. It didnt work out."
They tried. Maybe he wasn't interested? He's a pilot after all, in one episode where he replaced the Doctor ('Message in a bottle') he asked Harry what he was seeing. Harry replied: 'Sickbay'. Tom answered that he couldn't see the stars and wasn't near the helm or something along those lines.
He may have turned down the offer. That would explain why they 'tried' to make him an Admiral instead of the 'made' him an Admiral.
what because he was a failure once, didnt mean he cant learn to overcome what life threw at him?
Not saying that. At all.
I'm saying that it's a little silly to think that the ONLY way one gets the validity of "growing past their mistakes" is making captain, or admiral, or the head of a division... or being in Starfleet at all, for that matter.
Let me ask it this way... is the holo-novelist/father Tom Paris we saw in "Endgame" any less successful than the Captain Paris we're about to see?
Some people actually believe that once a TRIBBLE up always a TRIBBLE up.
there would have to be a pattern of failure to prove that because once someone screws up enough times, then you got the point that a leopard cant change its spots.
TRIBBLE up one time though, some people are not welcoming of second chances but sometimes there are legitimate reasons for not giving the second chance either. but generally people are allowed one big TRIBBLE up at some point, thats what being human is all about.. as the saying goes "no one is perfect". its also hard to prove that one TRIBBLE up will result in another TRIBBLE up unless you give then the chance to try :rolleyes:.. but thats common sense logic for you.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I'm saying that it's a little silly to think that the ONLY way one gets the validity of "growing past their mistakes" is making captain, or admiral, or the head of a division... or being in Starfleet at all, for that matter.
Let me ask it this way... is the holo-novelist/father Tom Paris we saw in "Endgame" any less successful than the Captain Paris we're about to see?
its not silly at all to see "Captain" tom paris. but im not going to go after you to insult your intelligence either, thats not my business.
its been 35 years since, and judging by how old he looked when voyager ended, around mid 30's, he would be around 70 years old by the time hes seen on sto, and 35 years is easily enough time to overcome any number of hurdles and rank issues.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Losers like Paris stay that way unless they go through some sort of extreme suffering, and Paris never did (like starvation, not like "My wife is prettier than me and smarter than me and more interesting than me but she doesn't follow my orders in a little shuttle craft race! My life is terrible.").
Oh he didn't did he? :rolleyes:
What about the time he was falsely accused of murdering a Banean scientist, and was implanted with his memories and forced to relive his murder over and over again?
What about the time he got incarcerated and nearly died in an alien prison falsely accused of a terrorist attack?
What about the time he and B'Ellana almost died in space?
Or what about the time he and Tuvok got stranded on an inhospitable hostile world for several months?
I'd say Mr Paris has experienced more than enough traumatic events during his time on Voyager to make him stop and reflect on his life and his mortality.
I could see Tom Paris being a captain, in his time in the Delta Quadrant, he learnt a lot from Captain Janeway and Chakotay and grew from the penal camp convict to starfleet officer during Voyager's journey through the Delta Quadrant.
He developed a whole new type of shuttlecraft, pulled off some impressive manoeuvres at the helm of Voyager and became a family man.
The journey matured his character and I can see him being a great captain.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
So... what? You're going to passive-agressively insult my intelligence, instead?
You also ignored my question about the Tom Paris we saw in "Endgame," but whatever...
what? fine i will point it out to you, if you allowed yourself to think beyond the limited, there is a chance anyone can become better then where they started, tom paris was one of them, is it so hard to believe that someone can go so far?
i have no idea what this passive aggressive thing is your claiming...
and no i wasnt but whatever..
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
what? fine i will point it out to you, if you allowed yourself to think beyond the limited, there is a chance anyone can become better then where they started, tom paris was one of them, is it so hard to believe that someone can go so far?
i have no idea what this passive aggressive thing is your claiming...
and no i wasnt but whatever..
1. You clearly thought I was wrong, that I was ill-informed, and that my intelligence would somehow be insulted by your thoughts... yet simply alluding to that thought, instead of actually having a conversation... is the very definition of passive-agressive. I'm a big boy, and I made this thread to discuss the topic. Don't hold back on my account.
2. You and I disconnect at the point of "becoming better than what he was." I have no problem with that. None. I recognize that Paris grew as a character over the course of Voyager... probably the third best character the show developed, behind Seven and The Doctor.
You equate "becoming better than what he was" with becoming captain. If anything is "limited," it's that viewpoint. I do not equate "becoming better than what he was" with gaining a captaincy... which is why I brought up the Paris we saw in "Endgame." That Paris was a holo-novelist, and a father who was happy to spend his time on Earth with his wife. Is he any less "better" than a Captain Paris? No, he is not. It's a different life, not an inferior one.
Becoming a captain can certainly show that one has become better than they once were... but the character's life does not hinge on whether or not he makes captain. To think otherwise, is a very one-dimensional view of people in the 24th/25th century.
You do realise that 32 yars have passed since we last saw the Voyager crew and Lieutenant Barclay right?
Barclay would have to be an extremely TRIBBLE poor officer to still be a puny lieutenant after 32 years.
It would be kind of cool though just once to run into one of the hero characters from the shows and find them working at a cafeteria in a colony or locked up in Facility 4028.
Question is, who should that be? Chakotay or Bashir would be interesting contenders for that kind of fate because they both flaunted rules. Trouble is, Chakotay is already established as head of Intelligence in game. And I doubt Siddig would do a turn.
Hm. Wesley could be interesting. He defied Picard on the colonist relocation. He presumably his powers at some point prior to Nemesis. The novels fudged the details on his Nemesis appearance but the producers intended for him to have lost his powers and re-enlist in Starfleet. He was even seen as an engineer aboard Riker's ship in one of the Trek attractions' filmed sequences. It'd be interesting to find a Wesley who perhaps didn't wind up in the best place. Maybe with his mom visiting him in prison.
Maybe Wesley could have tried to destroy Section 31 in a defiant act of idealism and wound up framed for murder by them or something, now spending his life in maximum security and cut off from the Enterprise crew, who occasionally lobby for a new trial.
And they made Kira Nerys Kai in the game. I don't think we ever got an explanation about that one, but one would think that to become Kai you'd have to be a Vedek from the start, that it's not something you can transfer to later in life based on your military career.
Maybe at some point after the Kai Wynn fiasco... someone got the idea to nominate Kira to the position and landslide popular vote because of her association with the Emmisary. From what little I heard of her in game... Kira's still got that to the point attitude and probably isn't afraid to get her hands dirty.
Unless she somehow had a kid since the end of DS9 and that's who they're talking about. Don't forget that Bajoran names are family name first.
I do get it on the surface level... this is the easiest way to get him into the game... but, why is Tom Paris a captain? Better yet, why is he still in Starfleet?
He never struck me as a "career" guy, despite his time on Voyager. That time changed him, matured him, and made him the man he always was supposed to be... great. That doesn't mean he needs to be in Starfleet to be that way.
He CERTAINLY doesn't need to be in the center seat. This is kinda my quiet problem with the Star Trek "extended universe" in the novels and what not: not everyone needs to be super-awesome at their job. Ezri Dax becomes a captain... Beverly Crusher becomes chief of Starfleet Medical (again)... Tuvok becomes an admiral... Jonathan Archer became Starfleet C-in-C, before becoming President of the UFP... BLAH. For once, I want to meet someone like Reg Barclay... and he's still a lieutenant.
I agree. I had thought that despite NOT being imprisoned upon retrning to Earth with Voyager he would have left Starfleet altogether. It seemd right for his character. I don't think he'd go Maquis, but I think he'd find a little niche of the galaxy to enjoy building ships and podracing...
I felt the same way when they introduced Harry Kim into the game. I mean, we all know that Harry Kim is the galaxy's whipping boy, but even so, how is it we can manage to get promoted to Admiral in only a few weeks while he's been in Starfleet for 4 decades and remains a lowly Captain?
Clearly the only logical answer is that it must be Janeway's secret hand, preventing any of her former from ever being able to out-rank her.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
You do realise that 32 yars have passed since we last saw the Voyager crew and Lieutenant Barclay right?
Barclay would have to be an extremely TRIBBLE poor officer to still be a puny lieutenant after 32 years.
Kind of like Harry Kim only being a Captain after 30 to 40yrs in Starfleet,...
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
There are no MACOs in Starfleet. MACOs were a military organization from BEFORE the Starfleet Charter.
Uh hate to break it to you....but MACOS stormed Nimbus 3 under Kirk's command. The proof was the uniform had dark blue collars and MACO insignia. They also made appearances as Ground troops in DS9. JJ Trek used them on Jupiter station to build the U.S.S. Vengance.
I agree. I had thought that despite NOT being imprisoned upon retrning to Earth with Voyager he would have left Starfleet altogether. It seemd right for his character. I don't think he'd go Maquis, but I think he'd find a little niche of the galaxy to enjoy building ships and podracing...
Why would he be imprisoned upon return? Had he been in the Penal Colony on a Life Sentence I doubt Janeway would of been able to throw around enough weight to get him out of there and on her ship. He was serving a sentence for being responsible for someones death. Not actually murdering them. Theres a difference there.
And maybe we were watching two different shows but besides Endgame. There was no indication by the end of the series that he intended to leave Starfleet. Mind you Endgame was an alternate reality where Voyager didnt make it home in 7 short years. They were out there for 23 years. Most of the crew would of been old enough to be veteran captains by the time they made it back to Earth in Endgame. Its not shocking that a good number of them, after an ordeal like that, had no interest in going back out on a starship.
But the difference between 7 years and 23 is more than enough to give Paris at a different point in his life compared to his Endgame self a different set of opportunities upon return. Endgame Paris would of been facing retirement, possibly mandatory, while younger Paris would of been looking at a promotion and possible Executive Officer position somewhere.
Ive always found it funny how people take alternate reality futures so literally. Instead of taking into consideration what had to happen between the current timeline and that future for those characters to get to that point. And then expecting that future to fullfill itself for no other reason than because we saw it. Completely throwing out the concept that because the future is now known, its possible it wont occur in that fashion.
Or maybe they thought that MACOs made a lot of sense and filled a gap in Starfleet. DS9 attempted to explain how Starfleet went about fighting ground fights during wars. But it only left us with more questions than answers. Like.
How does Starfleet provide ground troops to a war when they seem so pressed for bodies on the very ships that would have to carry these troops?
Where is Starfleet getting all of these ground troops and when there is no war...What is it that they do? Where are they assigned?
If Star Fleet's enemies actually exploited the obvious weaknesses in their defenses the Federation would be toast. At least in the TNG era. Kirk's time, not so much. They may have used phasers first, but at least they wouldn't ponder about destroying the borg when given the chance.
MACOs would definitely make more sense when trying to answer questions like this. Theyd be a separate force from Starfleet Personnel. With a primary purpose of ground combat. And when not taking part in a war they would act as Peace Keepers and be stationed at their very own bases and as security personnel at Starfleet starbases and top secret research facilities. Performing much of the same tasks and duties the Marines perform during war and peacetime.
It would make more sense to just give MACOs the traditional marine position in the navy. SF is modeled after the navy after all.
I know everyone loves to subscribe to Roddenberrys vision for the future regarding Star Trek. But theres a lot of flaws in that future. And the man himself was known to change his mind on things multiple times. And he seemed to have a hard time deciding if there was a currency or not in Star Trek. So in this case. Im glad Cryptic made a call and decided MACOs had a place here.
In my old account (I was a beta tester, dropped my account a few months after launch, recently returned) I said that myself on the forums plenty of times.
Why would he be imprisoned upon return? Had he been in the Penal Colony on a Life Sentence I doubt Janeway would of been able to throw around enough weight to get him out of there and on her ship. He was serving a sentence for being responsible for someones death. Not actually murdering them. Theres a difference there.
And maybe we were watching two different shows but besides Endgame. There was no indication by the end of the series that he intended to leave Starfleet. Mind you Endgame was an alternate reality where Voyager didnt make it home in 7 short years. They were out there for 23 years. Most of the crew would of been old enough to be veteran captains by the time they made it back to Earth in Endgame. Its not shocking that a good number of them, after an ordeal like that, had no interest in going back out on a starship.
But the difference between 7 years and 23 is more than enough to give Paris at a different point in his life compared to his Endgame self a different set of opportunities upon return. Endgame Paris would of been facing retirement, possibly mandatory, while younger Paris would of been looking at a promotion and possible Executive Officer position somewhere.
Ive always found it funny how people take alternate reality futures so literally. Instead of taking into consideration what had to happen between the current timeline and that future for those characters to get to that point. And then expecting that future to fullfill itself for no other reason than because we saw it. Completely throwing out the concept that because the future is now known, its possible it wont occur in that fashion.
Tom, among a few other crew members, violated quite a few of the directives and laws governing Starfleet officer conduct. However, perhaps in the end, it was considered that getting lost in the DQ for 7 years was penance enough. Directly contributing to the death of his crewmates, joining the Maquis and committing treason are still pretty hefty crimes to wear.
Tom never wanted to be in Starfleet. His father, a cruel and distant man, forced it upon him. This probably led to the aforementioned crimes. His passion was in racing and sailing, not in serving a military force and despite the events aboard Voyager I cant see him wilfully remaining in Starfleet.
There are no MACOs in Starfleet. MACOs were a military organization from BEFORE the Starfleet Charter.
Your argument is as ridiculous as saying there isn't a United States Marine Corps because the marines were a military organization from BEFORE the adoption of the United States Constitution.
Tom, among a few other crew members, violated quite a few of the directives and laws governing Starfleet officer conduct. However, perhaps in the end, it was considered that getting lost in the DQ for 7 years was penance enough. Directly contributing to the death of his crewmates, joining the Maquis and committing treason are still pretty hefty crimes to wear.
Any punishments inflicted before he was made Janeway's slave were probably voided when he left to go to the delta Q.
So... unless you're talking about something he did while he was there...
Any punishments inflicted before he was made Janeway's slave were probably voided when he left to go to the delta Q.
So... unless you're talking about something he did while he was there...
Well, the blog that kind of answered the OP's question...pointed to Paris even having continued issues while remaining in Starfleet. Promoted, demoted, promoted, demoted...it's Tom after all.
Uh hate to break it to you....but MACOS stormed Nimbus 3 under Kirk's command. The proof was the uniform had dark blue collars and MACO insignia. They also made appearances as Ground troops in DS9. JJ Trek used them on Jupiter station to build the U.S.S. Vengance.
I suggest you watch that scene again. It starts at the 37 minute mark. I would also point out that here is the text from the script:
Low Level combat lighting. Sulu occupies the pilot's seat. Nearby are Uhura and seven Enterprise crewmen. Kirk and Spock are huddled over a graphics screen. They are dressed in grey field uniforms. Phasers and transparent shields have been dispensed.
There is no reference to them being anything other then standard ship security wearing field uniforms - and Kirk, Spock, Sulu, etc are wearing the same uniform. I would also point out that Memory Alpha has no such reference either. MACO is stated to be:
Military Assault Command Operations (commonly abbreviated as MACO) was a United Earth military organization in service on Earth during the 2150s, prior to the founding of the Federation.
So you are going to need a lot more proof then just your say so.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Your argument is as ridiculous as saying there isn't a United States Marine Corps because the marines were a military organization from BEFORE the adoption of the United States Constitution.
Yes, the marines were. Yes, the marines are.
The same can be said for MACOs.
There were no "US" Marines before there was a US. In fact before there was a US there was nothing but 13 colonies working under the Articles of Confederation. And the first President under those Articles was a man named John Hanson, who happens to be an ancestor of mine.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I suggest you watch that scene again. It starts at the 37 minute mark. I would also point out that here is the text from the script:
There is no reference to them being anything other then standard ship security wearing field uniforms - and Kirk, Spock, Sulu, etc are wearing the same uniform. I would also point out that Memory Alpha has no such reference either. MACO is stated to be:
Notice the dark blue MACO collars and the Military blue pinstripe. Sorry cosmic1 that is the description of MACO even down to the generic gray field uniforms. Who knew?
Comments
Actually his favorite pasttime was playing out his fantasy Captain Proton in the Holodecks. Secondly who was it that retook Voyager from the Kazons with the help of a few Talaxians? Without that the crew is stranded on a planet end of story.
They may be referring to his demotion on Voyager, in that episode with the Water Planet.
what because he was a failure once, didnt mean he cant learn to overcome what life threw at him?
he thought himself a mercenary and a drifter, he hyped himself up to think thats what he is because others stated it, but he realized thats not what he wanted after the 1st year on voyager.
He built himself a life, had friends and belonged somewhere for once, the third season was the kicker for Tom, when he became sexually attracted to B'Elanna and he was apparently far from subtle about it.
He also built strong friendships with people he never thought he would, he even gained the respect of Tuvok and Chakotay to a point and the entire crew for the big saves hes pulled off and the people hes rescued, Chakotay included.
When B'Elanna got pregant tom was in a far more serious and prepared location, then he was 7 years earlier, he really did things for himself, for his ship and crewmates and for starfleet in that time. he changed, he learned to overcome some of things that was thrown at him.
While his first attempt at 1st officer under Chakotay was less than ideal, Tom learned some really useful lessons from Chakotay despite their differences. those skills he would of picked up from Chakotay may have been enough to help Tom realize that he can find himself and learn even more potential he may not of even realized he had.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
"Since returning to the Alpha Quadrant, Paris stayed in Starfleet... Rising (and falling) through the ranks, Paris now commands his own ship... Just don't ask about that time they tried to make him an admiral. It didnt work out."
Some people actually believe that once a TRIBBLE up always a TRIBBLE up. In most cases Id have to agree but some people struggle to see how characters like Tom Paris are the exception to the rule and have overcome their poor choices earlier in their lives.
They tried. Maybe he wasn't interested? He's a pilot after all, in one episode where he replaced the Doctor ('Message in a bottle') he asked Harry what he was seeing. Harry replied: 'Sickbay'. Tom answered that he couldn't see the stars and wasn't near the helm or something along those lines.
He may have turned down the offer. That would explain why they 'tried' to make him an Admiral instead of the 'made' him an Admiral.
Not saying that. At all.
I'm saying that it's a little silly to think that the ONLY way one gets the validity of "growing past their mistakes" is making captain, or admiral, or the head of a division... or being in Starfleet at all, for that matter.
Let me ask it this way... is the holo-novelist/father Tom Paris we saw in "Endgame" any less successful than the Captain Paris we're about to see?
there would have to be a pattern of failure to prove that because once someone screws up enough times, then you got the point that a leopard cant change its spots.
TRIBBLE up one time though, some people are not welcoming of second chances but sometimes there are legitimate reasons for not giving the second chance either. but generally people are allowed one big TRIBBLE up at some point, thats what being human is all about.. as the saying goes "no one is perfect". its also hard to prove that one TRIBBLE up will result in another TRIBBLE up unless you give then the chance to try :rolleyes:.. but thats common sense logic for you.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
its not silly at all to see "Captain" tom paris. but im not going to go after you to insult your intelligence either, thats not my business.
its been 35 years since, and judging by how old he looked when voyager ended, around mid 30's, he would be around 70 years old by the time hes seen on sto, and 35 years is easily enough time to overcome any number of hurdles and rank issues.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Oh he didn't did he? :rolleyes:
What about the time he was falsely accused of murdering a Banean scientist, and was implanted with his memories and forced to relive his murder over and over again?
What about the time he got incarcerated and nearly died in an alien prison falsely accused of a terrorist attack?
What about the time he and B'Ellana almost died in space?
Or what about the time he and Tuvok got stranded on an inhospitable hostile world for several months?
I'd say Mr Paris has experienced more than enough traumatic events during his time on Voyager to make him stop and reflect on his life and his mortality.
He developed a whole new type of shuttlecraft, pulled off some impressive manoeuvres at the helm of Voyager and became a family man.
The journey matured his character and I can see him being a great captain.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
So... what? You're going to passive-agressively insult my intelligence, instead?
You also ignored my question about the Tom Paris we saw in "Endgame," but whatever...
what? fine i will point it out to you, if you allowed yourself to think beyond the limited, there is a chance anyone can become better then where they started, tom paris was one of them, is it so hard to believe that someone can go so far?
i have no idea what this passive aggressive thing is your claiming...
and no i wasnt but whatever..
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
1. You clearly thought I was wrong, that I was ill-informed, and that my intelligence would somehow be insulted by your thoughts... yet simply alluding to that thought, instead of actually having a conversation... is the very definition of passive-agressive. I'm a big boy, and I made this thread to discuss the topic. Don't hold back on my account.
2. You and I disconnect at the point of "becoming better than what he was." I have no problem with that. None. I recognize that Paris grew as a character over the course of Voyager... probably the third best character the show developed, behind Seven and The Doctor.
You equate "becoming better than what he was" with becoming captain. If anything is "limited," it's that viewpoint. I do not equate "becoming better than what he was" with gaining a captaincy... which is why I brought up the Paris we saw in "Endgame." That Paris was a holo-novelist, and a father who was happy to spend his time on Earth with his wife. Is he any less "better" than a Captain Paris? No, he is not. It's a different life, not an inferior one.
Becoming a captain can certainly show that one has become better than they once were... but the character's life does not hinge on whether or not he makes captain. To think otherwise, is a very one-dimensional view of people in the 24th/25th century.
It would be kind of cool though just once to run into one of the hero characters from the shows and find them working at a cafeteria in a colony or locked up in Facility 4028.
Question is, who should that be? Chakotay or Bashir would be interesting contenders for that kind of fate because they both flaunted rules. Trouble is, Chakotay is already established as head of Intelligence in game. And I doubt Siddig would do a turn.
Hm. Wesley could be interesting. He defied Picard on the colonist relocation. He presumably his powers at some point prior to Nemesis. The novels fudged the details on his Nemesis appearance but the producers intended for him to have lost his powers and re-enlist in Starfleet. He was even seen as an engineer aboard Riker's ship in one of the Trek attractions' filmed sequences. It'd be interesting to find a Wesley who perhaps didn't wind up in the best place. Maybe with his mom visiting him in prison.
Maybe Wesley could have tried to destroy Section 31 in a defiant act of idealism and wound up framed for murder by them or something, now spending his life in maximum security and cut off from the Enterprise crew, who occasionally lobby for a new trial.
Maybe at some point after the Kai Wynn fiasco... someone got the idea to nominate Kira to the position and landslide popular vote because of her association with the Emmisary. From what little I heard of her in game... Kira's still got that to the point attitude and probably isn't afraid to get her hands dirty.
Unless she somehow had a kid since the end of DS9 and that's who they're talking about. Don't forget that Bajoran names are family name first.
I agree. I had thought that despite NOT being imprisoned upon retrning to Earth with Voyager he would have left Starfleet altogether. It seemd right for his character. I don't think he'd go Maquis, but I think he'd find a little niche of the galaxy to enjoy building ships and podracing...
Clearly the only logical answer is that it must be Janeway's secret hand, preventing any of her former from ever being able to out-rank her.
Especially Harry Kim.
Kind of like Harry Kim only being a Captain after 30 to 40yrs in Starfleet,...
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Uh hate to break it to you....but MACOS stormed Nimbus 3 under Kirk's command. The proof was the uniform had dark blue collars and MACO insignia. They also made appearances as Ground troops in DS9. JJ Trek used them on Jupiter station to build the U.S.S. Vengance.
Why would he be imprisoned upon return? Had he been in the Penal Colony on a Life Sentence I doubt Janeway would of been able to throw around enough weight to get him out of there and on her ship. He was serving a sentence for being responsible for someones death. Not actually murdering them. Theres a difference there.
And maybe we were watching two different shows but besides Endgame. There was no indication by the end of the series that he intended to leave Starfleet. Mind you Endgame was an alternate reality where Voyager didnt make it home in 7 short years. They were out there for 23 years. Most of the crew would of been old enough to be veteran captains by the time they made it back to Earth in Endgame. Its not shocking that a good number of them, after an ordeal like that, had no interest in going back out on a starship.
But the difference between 7 years and 23 is more than enough to give Paris at a different point in his life compared to his Endgame self a different set of opportunities upon return. Endgame Paris would of been facing retirement, possibly mandatory, while younger Paris would of been looking at a promotion and possible Executive Officer position somewhere.
Ive always found it funny how people take alternate reality futures so literally. Instead of taking into consideration what had to happen between the current timeline and that future for those characters to get to that point. And then expecting that future to fullfill itself for no other reason than because we saw it. Completely throwing out the concept that because the future is now known, its possible it wont occur in that fashion.
If Star Fleet's enemies actually exploited the obvious weaknesses in their defenses the Federation would be toast. At least in the TNG era. Kirk's time, not so much. They may have used phasers first, but at least they wouldn't ponder about destroying the borg when given the chance.
It would make more sense to just give MACOs the traditional marine position in the navy. SF is modeled after the navy after all.
In my old account (I was a beta tester, dropped my account a few months after launch, recently returned) I said that myself on the forums plenty of times.
Tom, among a few other crew members, violated quite a few of the directives and laws governing Starfleet officer conduct. However, perhaps in the end, it was considered that getting lost in the DQ for 7 years was penance enough. Directly contributing to the death of his crewmates, joining the Maquis and committing treason are still pretty hefty crimes to wear.
Tom never wanted to be in Starfleet. His father, a cruel and distant man, forced it upon him. This probably led to the aforementioned crimes. His passion was in racing and sailing, not in serving a military force and despite the events aboard Voyager I cant see him wilfully remaining in Starfleet.
Your argument is as ridiculous as saying there isn't a United States Marine Corps because the marines were a military organization from BEFORE the adoption of the United States Constitution.
Yes, the marines were. Yes, the marines are.
The same can be said for MACOs.
So... unless you're talking about something he did while he was there...
My character Tsin'xing
Well, the blog that kind of answered the OP's question...pointed to Paris even having continued issues while remaining in Starfleet. Promoted, demoted, promoted, demoted...it's Tom after all.
So you are going to need a lot more proof then just your say so.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.memory-alpha.org%2Fwiki%2FGalileo_(2287)&ei=rn8wVampAeHksASKn4DgBg&bvm=bv.91071109,d.cWc&psig=AFQjCNG-aVX-25fa3TIgQnFoODn8L7pn4A&ust=1429328159515926
Notice the dark blue MACO collars and the Military blue pinstripe. Sorry cosmic1 that is the description of MACO even down to the generic gray field uniforms. Who knew?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/05/10/opinion/10dowd190.jpg&imgrefurl=http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/10/star-treks-765m-opening-weekend-quintonimoy-pine-on-snl-more-tidbits/&h=245&w=190&tbnid=L6dRbXK2bMRhuM:&zoom=1&docid=1czb_NseloVCqM&itg=1&ei=iIMwVdH_Mo7IsATjtICADw&tbm=isch&ved=0CAsQMygDMAM4rAI
He did...LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!